2 kills 2 escape balance is BAD
at red ranks as survivor you can die and still pip, at least black pip most of the time as long as you where not a Dwight in a locker or get moried instantly. FOR KILLER. a 2k AT BEST IN A PERFECT SCENERIO is a black pip, most of the time it's a de pip. even getting some 3k's is a depip with some killers/gate keeper emblem being ENTIRELY up to the survivors due to how fast gens go at red ranks. with killers like plague and billy you are at a disadvantage with the chaser emblem, so not only is your gatekeeper emblem not gonna be high more than likely BUT your chaser emblem will be low to if you play these 2 killers. which means a "balanced 2k 2 escape average" is not being able to rank up in red rank and will probably de rank. for some other killers LIKE SPIRIT WHO CAN GET IRIDESCENT CHASER, even then 3k is usually a black pip and most of the time you NEED A 4K TO PIP AS KILLER. you DON'T need to escape as survivor to pip. so this 2 kills 2 escape balance is bad until AT THE VERY LEAST you change how difficult it is to pip in red ranks
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I mean, really, it’s not any different from 2017...it was easier to rank up as a survivor than a killer which meant an average red rank killer was scarier than an average red rank survivor. The fact it’s still that way doesn’t surprise me. Disappoints, yes, but doesn’t surprise.
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I think its clear at this point the devs really have 0 clue on how to balance a game, if you try to not focus on balance the game is more enjoyable honestly.
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I rarely de-pip from getting a 2k
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I reckon you can actually escape with three survivors as long as there's one generator left because Hatch spawns at that point.
Keys are balanced.
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I agree.
Escaping should be considered a "perfect", the equivilant to the Killer killing all 4 Survivors with all 5 gens remaining, and should have its difficulty rebalanced to reflect that.
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I completely agree. The gatekeeper emblem being especially bad at higher ranks. It's pretty ridiculous that a killer is expected to scrape by with a 2k. This makes it so red rank killers are considered to be outliers and ranks 7 or below are the actual skilled players. In order to make red ranks, you can't rely on skill alone. You must be both skilled and lucky, as depiping is obnoxiously easy even when you do well. Not only is this bad for the killers, but it's also bad for the survivors. As a red rank survivor, finding a game can take forever. This is why derankers and high tier killers are such an issue in DBD. Red rank survivors feel like they have to derank to either find games faster or play against different killers (these problems only getting worse with each killer nerf). This, in turn, causes killers to derank as they are constantly facing survivors who are of much higher skill than they are. It honestly pains me to see the devs ignore this problem, especially since it affects those most dedicated to the game.
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Yeah
you black pip.
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Which is fine imo, better than a de-pip.
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sometimes a 3k Is still a black pip due to gatekeeper, and maybe someone didn't die from 3 hooks, or a DC, or you are playing hillbilly/plague which are known to have low chaser emblems by getting 1 shots with their powers. 3k is anywhere from black pip to pip but mostly inbetween so still a black pip
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Legion is such a strange killer. He sucks at actually killing survivors, but he ranks up easily due to his malicious, brutality, and chaser gaining ability being crazy good. I'm definitely agree with you there. And while I do agree with the idea of 2k/2escape, the execution is the thing that is lacking. At this point in the game, you'd have to either get lucky and get a bad team on a good map, or you'd have to play nearly perfectly to get a 2k at high ranks. With all the tools, strategies, and perks loadouts survivors have all they need to get 4 escapes is basic teamwork (The maps with their many long loops and endless pallets being an especially large contributing factor to this). In a balanced system however, getting a black at 2k would make total sense and I would completely agree with you. The developers need to either balance the game and give killers better perk loadouts, powers, or strategies, or they need to make the killer pipping system more logical for the current balance. Personally, I believe they should better the balance of the game (specifically the maps) first before they touch anything else as that would affect every aspect of the game. Then they would be able to see where to go from there.
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3 kills + 1 DC = black pip if i let them farm themself of hooks or a de-pip if i don't. DC's and people who let themself die on hook rob the killer from a lot of points needed to pip.
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I have an idea, BP is typically linked to performance even more than the emblems, switch to that as a guideline for now until they work out a system that actually ranks
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Yeah this is a big problem in coordinated death squads, but what isn't? :(
@OP I agree, I think balancing towards 2k/2escape is only good until red ranks, then it succumbs to the problems you stated.
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BP was previously used. Then later they used a hidden emblem system.
Generally speaking both of these things led to poor games because it supported a killer behavior that wasn't generally fun.
The only problem with the current emblem system is that survivors survival emblem needs to be changed.
Instead of linking it to surviving the trial, they should change it to points for time survived while there is at least 1 gen left.
8:30 survived = bronze
9:30 survived = silver
10: 30 survived = gold
11:30 survived = iri
Change bp points for escape to 500, and add bp for each 30 secs survived at a rate of 40/30 secs. This would put you at 8000 if you survive 10 mins.
Watch the game change. No balance necessary.
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Why do you WRITE some words SO BIG? This LOOKS stupid!!1
Anyway, I would not say that the 2:2-Balance should be seen for every Match. I would say that it should be a 2:2 overall.
So if you have 100 Matches vs Killer X, in total, 200 Survivors should survive, 200 should die. Overall this would be 2 survive, 2 escape, but this does mean that there will be games with 4Ks, 3Ks, 1Ks, 0Ks as well.
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I disagree, I think fundamentally the average of deaths isn't indicative of the quality of any of those games.
Duration of games and BP scored (or emblems) would be far more valuable for determining the quality of the current balance. I suspect BHVR has these metrics, and I would hope are using them instead of the kill average to drive decisions. The kill ratio metric isn't granular enough to communicate any form of balance. They only provide us the kill average because its an easy metric to provide and its one of those things that most the forum warriors eat up and get side tracked on.
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The pipping system definitely favours the survivors, I haven’t de pipped as survivor for almost 2 weeks now, killer is a lot more difficult.
Killers have always had to be the more skillful role, so makes sense pipping is harder for them.
Post edited by NinoV1 on2 -
Its always weird to me when i hear the killer's emblem system explained, since it seems more balanced around giving survivors a fair and "fun" game than actually... killing them.
Like I get why, since killers would just camp to secure more sacrifices if they counted more towards devout, but it seems weird that it requires you to basically farm or play less optimally with survivors to get the max # of hooks for each of them, instead of rewarding killers that actually kill survivors quickly and with less gens done.
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don't forget that getting 1 shot kills with stuff like plague fully infecting them then hitting them or billy back revving makes your chaser emblem HORRIBLE, you are being punished by being a M2 killer/just using your power
makes sense
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Killing isn’t the only objective, that’s why. There are 4 emblems that everyone needs to get silver/gold/iridescent for in order to pip. If you’re playing the game just to kill two people, you’re playing it wrong. You have to chase, guard gens, hook, and hit survivors in order to pip
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Right. They are incoherent, let's stop playing
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Well, not quite. Spirit gains emblem points and bp fairly easily. Same with Wraith. Ghostface one shots and gets good points too. What I would say is that it varies between killers.
Plague is awful at getting points though. Just awful.
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Must be fun being in rank 20.
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2K/2Escape is ideal, I think, as a whole if the entire playerbase of skill levels was populated like it used to be. PC, most are higher ranks where piping starts to be an issue.
Side note: pretty sure that the people talking about it being difficult are the majority of PC/ People in purple and red ranks. It is very hard, unless you get at least a 3K, to pip.
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Dont forget, if you do really well as a killer and 4k you can still depip.
Frankly the only way to be sure of a pip is to 'play' with survivors and for the survivors to 'let' you pip.
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This is the main reason I drop Michael past rank 6. Losing out on malicious score events screws your chances to pip.
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no it isn't.
The metrics of k/e isn't useful for determining the quality of the game and experience.
a 4k in the first 3 mins is a horrible experience.
a 4 escape after 5 mins is a horrible experience.
average these and you get a 2k/2e and think all is well when actually all is not even close to well.
The metrics of interest should be pips/bps and game duration.
If you see a high number of pips and bp (survivor and killer) and long games, 12+ minutes, then I assure you that most of the players of that game likely had fun regardless of escapes and kills.
If you see a high number of survivor pips with short games and high BP for survivors, low bp and pips for killer, then the killers are having rough games and getting "bullied"
if you see a low killer pip and high killer bp with low survivor pips and scores with short games, then the killers are dominating the survivors.
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How do I get back? I'm ######### miserable here at Rank 6, all the Survivors keep dabbing on me.
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I haven’t been R20 in awhile, enlighten me please. :)
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I mean I wouldn't know. Last time I got a 2k I depipped. That was last night.
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That's because leatherface is god
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I would argue that your gripe is then with the emblem system rather than balance.
I do agree that if you're getting 3/4 kills in a match, you probably should be pipping (unless you're just camping whenever you hook somebody, for example). Though if you're getting two kills and not pipping, it sounds like it's doing its job just fine. You're at a rank that you're comfortable in and performing as expected. Ranking up further would mean that the system is failing you, and if that happens, you'll wind up getting paired with people above your skill level and have a bad time.
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If you perform better and pip you risk your favorite killer getting nerfed down the road.
Another incentive not to rank up.
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I don't view 2 dead as really a win for survivor. The quad is nice but if killer tunneled and killed the first survivor then 3 escapes is a win.
2 dead is a killer win. Imo
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People wanted harder ranking and that's in part what the emblems are designed to do.
They made ranking harder for both sides but unfortunately survivors were rare in the red ranks so they made it easier again where you can pip when you die so people could actually play.
The 2/2 is an average balance tool but not the only one they use.
If you want to get to rank one with the 2/2 average are you asking for it to be made easier? It could in turn mean survivors will have to be tweaked again for the match making to work.
The emblems imo are more the issue with a pip for good players as doing too well and 3 or 4king quickly can mean a black pip at best. Those cases need looked at.
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then what about all the games at red ranks where you outplay the survivors so hard the game is under 5min and all 5 gens are up and 4ked but you get a black pip because you played so well you didn't hook anyone 3 times? what are you supposed to just stop playing for a while to let them recover so you can pip? or go for the full "im trying to kill survivors", end the game in under 5 min with a 4k and black/depip because of that. you end up with the 4k but still get punished for it with a black/depip yet outplayed the survivors at every turn more than likely to end the game that quick with a 4k. doesn't seem right
Post edited by SteelDragon on3 -
"If you don't want your favorite Killer to be nerfed, don't play them".
Do you know how stupid that sounds? Yeah.
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So your saying Legion is over performing?
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You can play them. Just don't kill more than two.
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yes, actually.
The problem isn't that the emblem system forces you to do this if you want to rank up.
The problem is it DOESN'T force survivors to do the same. So if you focus on playing for the pip, the survivors will escape and likely still pip.
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I should never have to play a game in fear it'll be changed based on how I play or others play, that's absurd.
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They made it so that you have to torture and punish not necessarily kill.
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As someone who plays a lot of survivor. All the current emblem system in red ranks for killers does is encourage hard tunneling off hook and annoying slowdown builds.
Even from the other side we see the folly in this. And it makes the game miserable for all involved.
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Welcome to dbd. If your opponents don't have enough fun, you're getting nerfed.
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It's sad because they have made the game in a way that makes it seem like you can win as a survivor by not suriving, sure you may have done well but I like to think unless you achieved your goal and actually survived it was a loss.
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?
You understand the concept of sarcasm?
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that is the current direction of BHVR balance. so you better get used to it because it is a 4v1 game but survivors should be able to 1v1 killers, that is why spirit is getting nerfed
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I’m not saying your wrong, all I’m saying is there is more then killing to a killer ( I know it sounds stupid but hear me out) I play killer manly and yes most the time when I don’t get a 3-4K I safety pip/de-pip but in one of my recent matches I got no kills but still got a pip, and not barely but about 2 bars. I held off gens and used my power and got enough chases, so it’s still possible to pip even without getting the kills.
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what rank
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"2K and i blackpip, this is not working" ...
Seriously? If thats the case, the system is perfectly working.
0-1K Depip
2K Blackpip
3-4K +1/2
Thats how it should be
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