Need answer from dev. STOP IGNORING.
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In any case though, I think that the number 1 thing that the devs need to work out is how to make a power like Legions harder to use.
And I don't mean worse, I mean HARDER, as in more plausible options than correct options relative to currently.
Since if Frenzy isn't a free hit then it can have big effects without being unfair, since the Survivor wasn't helpless against it in the first place.
My approach to this would be to add a startup, similar to the Oni but with a Trapper style LoS loss. And then a much faster and more deadly Frenzy can happen afterwards.
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I would just like to ask since you don't want survivors to dodge lobbies is there anything in place to stop killers dodging also.
On ps4 it doesn't really matter if a survivor dodges since another will take their place in less than a minute. If a killer dodges a lobby on the other hand then all of the survivors will be waiting around 10 mins at least to find a lobby.
I'm not asking for the killer to not be able to see survivors or anything but I'd love to see survivor names hidden till after the game ends. Killers dodge if they recognize a survivor they don't like or play more toxic. I don't want killers punished for dodging but I'd like their decision to be based more on items than on who they are facing.
Also would like to ask did lobby dodging increase during the time the ranks were shown to other survivors? If you don't have the stats that's fine mate.
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Not to be that guy, but maybe if it was more contructive than "Legion got gutted, I'm sad", which is all I saw so far, the feeback would be more worthwhile of attention.
In the mean time I played Legion all evening yesterday and I found him way better.
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And what about legions unnecessary long fatigue cooldown? I mean you can’t down people so...legion is an m1 killer.. “legion has a speed increase in frenzy” isn’t justifiable.
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If you aren't already can you track how many Frenzy hits the Legion gets per trial on average?
Because in order for the mend changes to not be an overall nerf we'd need to see a 25% or more increase in the quantity of hits.
If we do then the counterbalancing made it not a nerf. He'd still need buffs but at least this patch didn't hurt him. If not then you nerfed him and REALLY need to buff him in response.
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To me though this is one of the great things about games: experiments and finding out for yourself what works. Games shouldn't spoon feed new players. Let people learn from trying things like a stab in FF during EGC with NOED. It's boring when every killer becomes an M1 slouch.
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You mean used to dodge lobbies that look like this? (Solo queue survivor with instant queue times)
And I apologize for sounding rude or is it because you guys know matchmaking is broken and don't want people to be upset? Like, as a solo queue survivor with less than 3min queue times, this shouldn't be happening but it is
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I'm a rank 11 killer and i tried out legion last night and stomped a swf team of all higher purple ranks. Only used yellow add-ons too. I know it was just one match but i didn't see a problem with him imo.
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Unless they have text to speech they don't listen at all!
^.~
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True lol
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True story, friend of mine bought the game before you released legion and i bought them and uh yeah so when he was learning the game, he asked me like does this work (ff + noed) and i am like no it doesn't, he laughed and did immediately understand why this wouldn't work. It doesn't take experienced players to figure stuff like that out. It is also a nice experience to get to know more about the game which you like so much and know not everything right at the start but hey that is just me. Games like DS have huge fanbases while they explain jack to the everybody at the start.
Keep in mind by streamlining everything due to "making it easier to balance" you essentially lower the learning curve and get a step closer to making killers the same as survivors, skins.
Funny you now have made oni who almost seems to be able to does just that (ff + noed) but with a build up phase ofc. Somebody (if you read this, i remember you have a hag portrait and your name is something with C, props to you) said in another thread i think that oni shouldve been the new legion and i completely agree.
You compare the dash to legion ff? It is just part of her kit, remove everything else from the pig and you will get the same reactions from the people that care about that killer.
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Because the Legion is far better now than previously. Stop being ignorant and complaining.
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''Hey can we have a 3 second stun?''
''No, I'm going to make your power less useful but I'll make you faster to compensate.''
''But I'm still punished when I use my power.''
''I can't make knee jerk reactions to something you've been complaining about for almost a year.''
''The speed buff to Legion is not a buff though, it was you reverting a huge nerf you put on them.''
''Ok that's it now your power is even weaker, DW is now effected by sprinting and no longer connected you at all so you can't control it.''
Why even bother complaining anymore when they don't understand what's going on. We asked for the Pin add-ons to be on hit and they straight up ignored us and made it on the 2nd person leaving the first person you hit with 0 pressure since Mending is crap and the Pin won't work on them and you're not chasing them. That makes no sense, that's stupid, in what world is that a good idea, oh my bad it's good for the Survivor because they don't have to suffer.
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If you have any suggestions, feel free to post them on my thread. I am trying to make a redesign of Legion's power into a purely stalling power, instead of whatever it is now.
You need to be calm and respectful though, we need to communicate with the Devs in a respectful manner, despite not immediately getting what we want.
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Why would you nerf a killer's power for new people? Everyone has to learn the game be it confusing or not. You are basically taking viability from a killer that was almost and now is useless at red ranks. Why not try to balance for your dedicated audience who stuck with the game and learned how to deal with certain killers? Might aswell make every killer have just m1 to not make it complicated for new players.
I Would like to know though if a legion rework has been discussed? I played legion and nurse almost exclusively from launch up until this update and both seem really underwhelming at the moment (ps4 nurse btw).
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I didn't care about it personally but I just think it's an unfair trade since FF can't down a survivor.
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Doesn't matter if you care or not. You need to design your suggestions accordingly, otherwise you are wasting your time.
Simply reverting changes will end up with the problem they initially set out to fix still being there. So that's almost never the right approach.
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They ignore it because Legion does not matter.
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pin changes were all common requests.
I'd like the find the person who requested pins only work on the second hit.
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He must be hanging out with Sasquatch.
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No doubt. It sucks being labeled, but not so much by the DbD community. It is just littered with salty mofos!!
Also....
Play both sides!!
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Why do you think you deserve a response every single time something doesn't appease you?
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Legion sucks now he is so bad. YOu guys really messed up the new deep wounds mechanic. It makes NO sense.
Borrowed time is godmode strong now. Legion basically has the worst power in the game. Nobody even cares about deep wounds now. You can run across the map and never bleed and then heal in 8 seconds.
This is a joke, i will be leaving negative reviews on legion DLC and others to prevent ppl from wasting hard earned money on killer who is so weak. everyone just gonna play as Bill now or run borrowed time.
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I don't think they're ignoring anything. Too many people complain about too many things every day. Expecting a response and a change for every complaint is a very immature way to think. Nobody here is entitled to a change or a rework, BHVR has enough on their plate and are fixing things slowly but surely. Fixing a bug or doing a rework is far more complex than fixing say, the percentages of a perk. Imagine giant trumpets in each ear playing a different tune with a crowd of thousands of people screaming at you to say which one sucks worse. Assuming the devs are ignoring you and insulting them will get nobody anywhere soon. But this is coming from someone who doesn't take the game seriously, I just play to have fun. Been facecamped, tunneled, slugged and played against pre-nerf Legion, and I just go with it as a good sport.
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My lord do you all want to balance and develop the game. I have gripes and issues with the game as much as anyone but at the same time you all have to realize BHVR has over a million players playing their game and a list of issues to work with.
They've been making steady improvements to the game while expanding all around. On top of that they're adding new changes while trying to balance out the new with the old while trying to keep the group of you toxic impatient people happy.
Calm down, it's a game. Name me one perfectly balanced multiplayer (much less asymmetrical multiplayer) game? I'll wait....
Give them time. Patches cost money to put out so they can't push them out every damn day. Reworks take time and play testing, even with AAA studios they don't know how it will play out on live servers. The worry with Legion after the PTB was they would turn into a lighter version of old Legion, they immediately addressed it. They literally came out a year ago, there are a lot of issues on the docket. Breathe.
God bless you @Peanits. I'd go mad dealing with this lot day in and day out.
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How about Natural Selection 2, Star Craft 2, Dota, Quake, CS, L4D, L4D2... list goes on.
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I wish the devs would simply realize that nurse and legion wants to enjoy the game too :(
These killers had knee-jerk nerfs and now their ears are stuffed full of goo. :(
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My post accidentally got deleted but you're telling me there were never any gripes with any of those games? Because I can tell you from experience with L4D and L4D2 that I had a list of them that people used to send.
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just revert the on hit changes, and reduce the stun a little. done.
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What list? Sure there were gripes but in the end the games were balanced at all times, changing meta a bit here and there but anything being overlooked or becoming too powerful and it would be changed.
What issues did you have with l4d/2 ?
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I thought L4D was a fine game. I had no major issues with it, but my old inbox would tell me that it wasn't perfect for everyone. "Hunters should die in a fire and shouldn't be able to do more damage if they pounce on you while you're on fire." "Tanks shouldn't spawn at this point." "Survivors shouldn't be able to rush to the safe room that easily." "Smokers shouldn't have locations where they can pull you and no one can save." Those are the ones I remember.
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My lord you all need to calm down. Do you all want to develop, fund and balance a game? They have over a million people playing the game and a long list of gripes to address. Give them time. They aren't going to immediately respond to every single post considering they probably already saw it.
Name me one multiplayer (much less asymmetrical multiplayer) game that's perfectly balanced in everyone's eyes? I'll wait.
They're trying to add more content, fix bugs, and balance the new with the old. There's a lot to do and coding all of that isn't easy. Not to mention patches can cost upwards of a million dollars just to push out on a single platform. They can't push one out every week. Playtesting is fine but a lot of balance has to happen on live servers, even for AAA games. Legion was just released a year ago and they've worked on them what, two times already? There are issues older than Legion in the game. Balance isn't easy.
Just breathe, it's a game. You'll be ok.
@peanits. Bless you, I don't know how you deal with this lot day in and out.
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Sounds like noobs.
Hunters should do dmg, competitive it was played in pro mod which removed the +25 cap. Survivors rushing through the map, dictated the pace of the game and making it hard for infected to coordinate their attacks. Tanks are okay and fine to deal with at almost any place and even if you get killed once, it is not the end of the world. There is not a single pull performable by a smoker that can kill a survivor without being saved by others, they did make a mistake prior to it mostly a boomer blocking LoS for them and they didnt spam right click. Pulls are possible but only against people who do not know how to deal with it.
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If I remember correctly you could pull survivor in certain spots, like off an adjacent ledge, they would hang and if you were shot the survivor fell down and were incapacitated.
As I said I think L4D is a well balanced game, I had no gripes, it's arguably in my top 5 favorites of all time. But it wasn't perfect for everyone.
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people wouldnt have to dodge lobbied as survivors if matchmaking wasnt broken
of course if i was rank 1 i wouldnt want to play with someone who is outside of my rank zone, thats how its supposed to work in the first place.
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"I just think they should consider the minority"
You do know what the minority is...right? Like, the actual definition of "minority"? If the vast majority of players aren't having issues, why would they even consider the small group of people who are complaining about something? If they change it, they be upsetting the majority and catering to the minority, which is not something anyone should do in any business, especially video games. If it's not seen as a problem to the majority, then it won't get changed. That's how it works, sis.
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I didn't say to revert the changes, i'm just saying that Legion's power is basically useless. With or without the change.
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@Peanits Constructive ideas/feedback for legion without any negative connotations:
Here's a set of changes I've been asking for since the original nerfs:
Since Legion is all about the rush of stabbing multiple people, while in FF give him a stacking MS bonus for each survivor hit. This bonus would be lost at the end of FF.
The MS bonus would apply to vaulting pallets and windows as well. Something like a + 0.1 or + 0.2 bonus per survivor hit.
Yea, 5.4/6/8 looks like a lot, but when you consider the amount of time each survivor has to run while you're going after the first 1 or 2, it still gives them plenty of time to get away.
Second, no one wants to look at the ground for 4 seconds while they're fatigued, so I suggest a 1.3 second stun at the end. When you math speeds out for how far you can travel while fatigued vs how far survivors can get, a 1.3 second stun gives the exact same numbers as a 4 second slow down. The benefit of this is playing around windows and pallets, which is something legion is supposed to be good at anyway. To explain why it helps with those, here:
If I'm in FF and chasing a survivor, and they hop a window or pallet as ff wears off, I now have two options. Wait 4 seconds, then vault/break the pallet, or fatigue walk around it. With a 1.3 second stun, the survivors still have the exact same amount of time to gain the same ground in a straight line (straight line is relevant because it was the example you used last time this was talked about), but it allows legion to get back in the game quicker. Staring at the ground for 4 seconds through a blacked out screen isn't exactly "engaging gameplay" as you put it in regards to mending.
I think these two changes would go a long way towards making legion a realistic threat again, without having to deal with the exploits from before.
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That is very much like being racist. Imagine telling a black dude his opinions don't matter because all the whites have already voiced their opinion.
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20 seconds dosen't seem all that bad to me to be honest. And again, why weren't the addons just changed? Why was Legion given nothing to down survivors with in place of having very little slow down now (so little its actually inefficient to go try and chase another survivor with feral frenzy), or some kind of slow down that mattered besides deep wounds?
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As far as the basic attack change goes, it's the same as the Pig. It's to create consistency between powers so it's easier to understand what a basic attack is and what works with it.
Okay then @Peanits riddle me this: who's asking for Killers like Pig and Legion's power to not function like a default hit? I haven't seen anyone asking for these Killers to be unable to apply debuffs on their ability hits. Legion maybe but certainly not Pig. And if anything Killers like Pig and Demogorgon are substantially stronger because of their ability to cheat the system with Save the Best for Last. Legion meanwhile is just worse off overall for pretty much no reason.
As for mending, previously it was too easy to get stuck in an endless loop of mending (with mending times of up to 20 seconds). This left people mending most of the time which isn't exactly thrilling gameplay. There's no interaction between the killer and survivor there.
This is particularly funny because now with how fast you Mend against Legion they can often come back to you during a Feral Frenzy after you've Mended to stab you again, dus actually creating an "endless loop of mending." People were asking for Mending to be more "thrilling gameplay" by making it require skill checks or making Deep Wounds more of a threat or literally anything to make it more dangerous and less of a mild annoyance. But now Deep Wounds is a complete joke and you guys have completely missed the objective with nerfing it to make it "less tedious." It's MORE tedious now than it was before because it's a complete non-threat and you feel like you're just doing busy work instead of actually surviving. Combined with Legion's increased speed and their ability to actually chain stab more-often-than-not a Legion would run past you, stab you once, and then run off. And now you're forced to mend with zero option for intelligent counter-play since you can't strategically keep in the Killer's terror radius to keep the debuff from ticking down, which presented an interesting risk-reward between keeping close to the Killer while injured or having Deep Wounds tick down.
I really wish that you guys would just admit when you've made a mistake instead of going around in circles trying to insist that "the character just requires a different playstyle" or something along those lines. That mentality is what took us 2 years to rework Freddy after he was universally agreed on by 90% of the community that he was the worst Killer in the game. And what happened after Freddy was reworked? He was fun. People enjoyed playing as him, and he offered a unique experience when played against. He's a little too strong yes but I'd rather have one more strong Killer than for every match at Red Ranks to be Spirit, Nurse, and Hillbilly. And even if Deep Wounds wasn't a complete meme Legion still wouldn't be top tier.
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Where are you getting this 25% figure from and why are more feral hits a threat?
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Hes not good in chase or tracking now with the new changes he isn't good at stalling or anti-heal What do you guys want Legion to be?
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The fact you're bringing race into a conversation that is clearly about numbers is really funny. Actually read what I posted, and you'll see we're actually talking about the numbers of players.
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A frenzy hit went from 16 seconds of stall down to 12. However his speed in frenzy was increased.
If the extra speed is enough to go from hitting 1 Survivor per frenzy to 2 Survivors per frenzy then that's a total stall increase of 16 to 24 per frenzy use for example, which is a buff.
25% is simply the threash-hold for it to be an actual buff. Since if 1/4 Frenzy hits now were gotten because of the buff to Legions speed, then that means his average stall per match is identical even if the stall per hit is lower.
If it's less additional hits than that then his overall stall went down since the additional hits would be insufficient to make up for it.
If it's more additional hits then his overall stall went up because he is getting disproportionately more hits and thus is applying DW on more occasions.
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Purposely ignoring a small subset people and they are disadvantaged because of it is discrimination. Nurse and legion are black sheep.
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No one is disadvantaged because of a rework that a small group of people don't like it. You can't please everyone. Please bring a legitimate point to this discussion. No one is talking about discrimination, it's a basis of opinion. If the devs see that the majority doesn't have a problem, then it won't get fixed. Again, skin color is irrelevant. Everyone has to face the same killer, how THE SURVIVOR IN QUESTION deals with it is what matters. Perks they have, their play style, the killer's playstyle, the map, the killer's perks, and individual experience between all players inside of the match in question is what determines whether or not someone can handle any supposed "disadvantage". If they can't that's their problem and their petulant whining won't do anything to solve the problem at hand.
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I didn't say they should change things according to the minority, all I was saying is sometimes the minority do have good ideas that none of the majority are even thinking about and it's not a totally bad idea to atleast pay attention.
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Pointless?
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Devs rarely pay attention to the minority. They pay attention to numbers. The majority always outweighs the minority in any business, because it's better for the game's overall health. If they upset the larger subset of people, that's more backlash, more people quitting, more negative reviews, which all impact income, potential sponsorships, DLC agreements with other companies, etc. They HAVE to listen to the majority or else their numbers will take a serious dive. It's unfair, but it's a business.
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