People still saying DS is countered by not tunneling
There are a few thing extremely wrong with this^^
DS is *meant* to counter tunneling. It is NOT a counter to not get countered by losing efficiency. That is redundant.
Getting hit by DS is not a 1:1 of You Tunnel:You Get DS'd- It is very easy for a survivor to do something that seems stupid just for the reason of using DS. It is very easy to hook survivor 2 after survivor 1 gets unhooked and down survivor 1 again before DS's timer runs out. It is 60-120 seconds of immunity.
You can believe DS is in a good spot or should be changed. Just don't be ignorant of it's uses in game.
Edit:
Peanits, I love you man and you've said countless great things to steer public opinion on issues in the right direction, but slugging isn't a counter. It's delaying the inevitable in many situations. You'll have to be playing a very strong game or proxy camping the area the slugged survivor is on to make sure they do not get up. If you aren't playing the strongest game and getting great hook rotations on all the survivors, they're likely be a free escape or two at the end if many are running DS. Eating the DS is a better 'counter' in this situation.
Also, remembering who was hooked so you don't 'accidentally tunnel them' while their DS is active isn't a great solution either. If you happen to find or the recently hooked person happens to get a rescue on another survivor, you shouldn't be forced to not attack them/slug.
Some people replied with these things and I wanted to bring them to the front. Sorry for the edit!
Comments
-
I think DS is a very good perk and in a good spot. But yes it is not only an anti tunnel perk.
9 -
It is heavily abused, same as BT.
26 -
BT and DS do what they're supposed to. Don't understand all the complaining.
26 -
Yeah, I don't really mind DS in the spot is in now. I getting DS from time to time, but it is pretty rare. I generally wont go for the person off hook so 9/10 times by the time I get back to survivor 1 DS has run out.
Though, I will admit, if you get pulled off a hook in front of me and start working on a gen instead of running, I have no problem slugging your cocky [BAD WORD].
Probably the only time's I wish I would tunnel more is when I get hit with DS in the exit gate, because I didn't tunnel all game. It feels undeserved in my opinion.
But as I stated at the start, I do think DS is in a good position now.
6 -
They're both to counter camping and tunneling but they both punish the killer even when he doesn't do either currently. It's pretty straight forward why people are complaining.
15 -
Did you read... at all? He just explained why, just incase you're confused I'll give you a good idea why it's busted. If I hook someone, leave to go find someone else, hook the guy I found and then find the first dude again and down him quickly. Should I get punished for being good at the game and get stunned into oblivion, lose all of my momentum, and he's basically gone or because I already downed and hooked someone else should I get rewarded for doing good?
6 -
I see the point you're trying to make, but it really is countered by not tunneling. If someone tries running at you at the last second to make you grab them, slug them for a few more seconds and it'll run out. Running out the clock isn't a big deal unless you are actually chasing them off the hook and have to wait almost 60 seconds.
29 -
The way I see it, it is possible (after someone with DS gets unhooked) for the Killer to go after someone, down them, hook them, run into the person with an active DS, forget in the heat of the moment that they were the last one you hooked, and inadvertently down them + pick them up + proc DS. At that point, you weren't tunneling them, but they still managed to get DS active. I know at that point one could argue that it should be on the Killer to remember who they hooked and roughly when (like one should remember not to place an RBT on a Survivor that ends up dying when you hook them), but I do think that it can show that someone who does not tunnel can still end up triggering DS.
15 -
If you've been downing and hooking multiple people in quick succession, it feels kinda unrealistic to expect the killer to have a perfect 60 second clock in their head for when each of the survivors got unhooked.
Always feels cheap in those scenarios when you get caught by someone's DS in the last 10 seconds despite them not being the one that just got unhooked.
19 -
The main problem is that the perk stops the pressure killer can inflict by punishing reckless hook saves.
For example survivor unhooked before killer moved away. The good play would be to hit the person that just got unhooked and run after the healthy farmer. That would inflict pressure on rest of the team and wouldn't be tunnelling as DS still prevents quick rehook. BT is the good perk to prevent that down and it's fine as the perk is fulfilling it's role.
Good survivors know this so they do things that force grabs to prevent the slugging which is usually jumping into the locker. Killer CANNOT pressure the survivors in that case.
For weaker killers it is terrible.
6 -
Im fine with the timer on DS being 60 seconds, but if the killer manages to hook someone else before the timer runs out, it should deactivate. Theres a huge difference between actually tunneling and randomly finding the injured person after hooking someone else.
13 -
What often happens is the survivor with DS still active will run int to unhook, you try to be nice and not hit the newly unhooked guy and still get hit by DS, losing both of them.
Slug them all and let the Entity sort it out.
3 -
Yeeeeah, that's the kinda thing I'm talking about. You do the opposite of tunnelling and then the perk says 'AHA, take this tunneller! xD'
3 -
You make it sound like slugging isn't a high risk play for killers. They aren't getting the option here either, this is forcing them to make that risk. Also, you are expecting the killer to slug every single survivor after every single hook that they attempt to do this? That seems so unrealistic.
Killers are on the clock with already not enough time for their objective in comparison to gen speed.
One single perk is effecting how the killer plays every single game. That is not good design.
Tunneling also is not just downing the same person twice in a row. Killers work on momentum. If I leave a hook entirely and just happen to run into the same survivor again a killer can't afford to be like "oh my bad! Didn't realize it was you, carry on. I'll go look for someone else randomly". Killers don't have time to do that.
5 -
If they all have DS I usually tunnel one person to death if I have time time; it's the only way I've been able to have any success against all DS teams.
It's nothing personal but I've not found anything else that works; because they will literally hide in a locker right in front of me and I locker grab them and get DS stunned and it's like; you just got off hook and ran right up to where I was and got in a locker, now I have to be punished for your bad play?
Yeah I eat the DS in a way that I know where they will run, and then I run them down and tunnel them until death. Coincidentally, I generally don't tunnel unless 3 or 4 of them are running DS, so at least in my scenario it has the opposite of the intended effect lol.
Like it literally rewards bad play; but when a whole team is running it you can't pick up like anyone, I had a match with oni I downed everyone so quick- but they all had deliverance and DS- so because they all like swarmed and got downed like one after another really quickly I hooked them, but they started hopping off hook, getting the other people, and kept doing that, I kept downing them but they all had DS so I kept eating DS after DS there was nothing else i could do. So I just kept hitting the same person till they died on hook, and did it to the other and the last got hatch.... it would have been a 4K but that combination is just brutal.
4 -
its really annoying when a person with ds saves someone from a hook right infront of me so i am forced instead of downing them and hooking them then going after the other person. I have to either down them then chase after the other guy (giving someone else the chance to get the newly downed person back up) or wait there for about 30 seconds.
4 -
Never had an issue with DS after the nerf
It's only 5 seconds, and I rarely even have it used against me unless it's end game and theres only like two people left so I'm bound to run into it, but at that point I have so much momentum that it doesn't matter.
DS Is fine, gone are the days where it would be used on you half way to a hook, or after your first down.
4 -
Exactly right, it can help with tunneling but that's not its sole purpose. On the stream the developers said that perks can be used beyond their intended purpose.
2 -
Which is also fine, but it shouldn't be used to punish a killer for survivors making ridiculously bad plays. Also, when everyone is running DS it becomes really silly, especially if you do TOO well and down people quickly; it becomes just slugging everyone or hard tunneling one person to make sure they stay dead so you can actually continue playing.
Killer's haven't been too unreasonable in knowing it's a good anti tunnel perk with a lot of valid uses; it's just it's going beyond that into the obnoxious realm because of how else it is being used.
No one wants to take it away, or stop it from it's intended purposes and for creative uses.
1 -
It isn't an anti-tunnel perk. It is an anti-momentum perk. I have thought that for quite some time, as slugging a Survivor is not the same as picking them up and hooking them.
The only changes I would like to see are three main things.
1.) The timer ends when you hook someone else.
2.) The timer does NOT end if you are slugged.
3.) The timer ends when you are fully healed.
7 -
Leave the perk as it is. No tunnel, no DS. Don't cry about DS when you tunnel off hook for quick kill. Literally i never eat DS because i never tunnel off hook. Sometimes only at the exit gates and hoping they miss the skillcheck.
2 -
- There are several times when I've been able to down both survivors at the hook for pure convenience, me hooking the unhooker, and then the first one if still tunneling imo, that person should have the chance to get away if they are running the perk especially as someone has traded.
- I take it you don't play this game as in some situations towards end game slugging is the only option, this would just mean any downed survivor at end game would be free to crawl out, it would literally be a free escape
- Why? Some healing perks, such as We'll Make It makes healing quick enough as to where the killer wont make it back before you heal, if they go after the person that was healed, it's still tunneling.
4 -
This sounds a bit ignorant of the actual issue; nothing you said is the problem people have with it. I can avoid getting DS'd an entire game and still suffer from it's problems. How you haven't experienced them first hand yet is a mystery, but if you play killer in higher ranks long enough you will. Even Otz runs into these problems, so play experience has little to do with it.
I actually like these ideas, but the fully healed one might be too much, I mean if they get healed quick by allies they shouldn't be punished for it, that is a bit extreme. If you hook someone else though it really should, but again survivors are going to say "Why should I lose MY DS because that rando went and got hooked playing poorly?"
This is why it's been such a hard thing to figure out a solution for. It's not so easy to come up with a solution that works for everyone; someone is going to be upset no matter what happens with it.
1 -
No more silly than every match featuring the same Perks for The Killer as well. I have no trouble with DS and find the existing list of prerequisites to be fine. A lot of these suggestions to deactivate if someone is hooked or healed will only require enhancing it in other ways and introduce more issues that would need to be addressed. There are many scenarios that involved getting tunneled and never having a chance to even use the perk, so if people want a truly and exclusively anti-tunnel perk it would need some major changes. I can think of a way more fair yet powerful change to DS to accomplish that goal.
0 -
Run, Unnerving Presence
0 -
You are welcome to that opinion but for the reasons I already mentioned I still disagree sorry.
I think it does have some things that need looking into; but I don't agree with a lot of the heavy handed suggestions about it either; I don't want it nerfed I just want it changed; and doing that would be VERY difficult I understand that and don't expect it any time real soon.
1 -
Most times I find NOT tunnelling a DS survivors means they can use DS in the end game and/or empower them to body block you when you are not tunnelling them, so I try and force them to use it asap.
As for not tunnelling an unhooked DS survivor. Maybe you could slug them or leave them, but then you are allowing them to use the perk later in the game. Facing DS survivors as killer means you are damned if you tunnel and damned later on/in the end game if you dont tunnel. It isnt a well designed perk imo.
1 -
That's fine, I still disagree with you. I do however agree that revisiting the Perk won't be easy. I think people forget you have no control when you're rescued and that becomes part of the discussion. People here sometimes lack insight (SC complaints shifted focus from wasting time while healing in corners to running other more powerful Perks and gen rushing) and I can see DS getting narrowly tailored to truly be anti-tunnel in a compelling way that many Killers would likely hate.
1 -
they need to at LEAST make unnerving presence a better counter for decisive strike. slugging is not a good counter, especially near gates they can just run out or crawl out.
1 -
https://clips.twitch.tv/CogentWiseHamsterWutFace
The fact that you can down and hook 2 different survivors across the map and get DS's by a third survivor should tell you that there is at least SOMETHING wrong with the perk. You should not need to keep a 60 second stop watch for every survivor, that's just poor design to be frank. There should be something else, very clear for the killer, of when this perk is not active.
DS cancelling out when another survivor is hooked after the DS user has been unhooked is a VERY popular suggestion because at that point it's a clear case of the Killer not tunneling, but I have yet to see a BHVR member address it. Can you please tell us how this would be disruptive to the purpose of the perk design?
2 -
It also illustrates how quickly The Killer can Hook someone (or two) and navigate the map. Not interested in a video that is anecdotal because there are many times when you ARE tunneled and DS doesn't help you. For any realistic adjustments, you need to decide the goal of the perk and how to accomplish it. If it is anti-tunnel, the "very popular" suggestion (along with getting healed) would fail to advance the stated anti-tunnel goal.
0 -
I love how you use this clip of umbra abusing wall clipping to show off how "op" DS is lmao.
2 -
fair lol
But irrelevant to the point.
0 -
Sorry, I just have little sympathy for someone who abuses game design but gets mad at a perk for working as intended.
6 -
I am a chill killer staying on purple ranks, 5-8. I don't care about the 4k's, no sweat etc. Getting messages for how fair killer i am. Toxic survivors are always there but they don't getting under my skin. Feeling good and having fun games.
2 -
I think some y’all need to look up what the word immunity means. It is so so easy to counter DS, just slug them and chase someone else.
2 -
Thankfully, I am a great killer. I don't care about DS, you got it, i eat, I down you again, you get hooked.
If you're the type of survivor that wants me to grab you out the locker or is baiting a hit, then enjoy your locker time (while I place a trap in front of it) or enjoy being slugged.
Post edited by Rizzo on3 -
Well, if they like getting slugged then that's what they get ;)
1 -
Slugging is like hooking except it doesn't bring the survivor closer to death hook.
2 -
Maybe it affects how you play the game because you tunnel too much.
If the survivors have opened the exit gates then you have probably already lost.
Ruin already impacts the game enough, when I play swf we always have a guy bring a map or small game just so we can do our objectives normally. I've seen way too many people try cleansing HG or TotH because they haven't seen yet that I'm not running ruin. Or maybe I am wrong?
2 -
And gives them more time. A high risk play.
1 -
idk what you mean. they are immobilized completely for 30 seconds
1 -
You only get hit with DS once per game per survivor with it on. A one use perk is a waste anyhow and most survivors stop using it until they run into killers who face camp and tunnel. Then BT gets slapped back on along with DS and the survivor starts making everyone use them. It's a rolling storm. If killers stopped tunneling and camping and it happened randomly once a game BT and DS wouldn't be used but it's happening so much that they're forced to be used, and if you force me to use a 1 use perk instead of something else, I'm going to ensure it gets used every game I have to have it.
2 -
I'm talking about on the ground
0 -
Yeah I already had a whole discussion on that god awful perk.
Personally I feel like it should be based off of your ability as a survivor, you get DS if you can get the killer to BL 1 maybe 2 (thoughts) if you get him to whatever requirement you want for bloodlust you get the ability to use DS anytime in the match you want one time. This way you actually earned it. It' rewards good play on both sides and provides an ADTUAL counter to DS
1 -
Freaking same. I actually have more people dcing because they thought they got me with DS but I denied it. In any case I usually will eat it before EGC (if it gets there) because I would rather eat it early. 🤣
2 -
I keep seeing this defense, and I keen asking “if it is anti-tunnel why can’t it deactivate if someone else is hooked?” If I hook another player then come back, find, down and hook the first player they is literally not tunneling. But I can still get hit by DS
2 -
Or you can do what should be done, and deactivate ds if somebody else is hooked, after, you are unhooked.
This keeps it as an anti tunnel perk and stops ds from being abused by swf.
0 -
I think it should be based on the survivors ability to get the killer into bloodlust cause then it rewards skill it actually is acting as an anti tunnel perk and them it actually adds REAL counter play on the killers part
And you're absolutely right every1 automatically assumes it's just killers who think it's a stupid perk.
I love it as survivor but it's broke as hell there's zero counter play to it.
1
