Which do we balance around. The 1v4 or the 1v1
This is the question that is the main reason why Dead by Daylight can (most likely) not be balanced completely.
Let's look at both sides
• The 1v4 aspect looks at the game as a whole. This formula is preferred mostly by killer mains.
• The reason for balancing around the 1v4 makes sense, it is a 1v4 in a whole, but in the chase, it isn't. This formula would also equal (if both sides are equally as skilled) a 4 kill 0 survival rate. This makes sense, but we must look at the other side.
• The 1v1 aspect looks at the game as the main part of the game, the chase. This formula is preferred mostly by survivors.
• The reason for balancing around the 1v1, also makes sense. The main portion of the game where the killers and survivors are engaging in skillful interaction (skillful most of the times, cough, rancid abattoir and Ironworks window, uncough.) The chase, it is the true interaction of the game, but if we balance around the 1v1, the formula would result in (if both sides are equally skilled) around a 1 kill 3 survival ratio. Not good.
The main issue is, both sides are correct in their own way. And there isn't a great compromise between the two. Except 2 escape 2 death ratio, which is what devs are going for.
What do you think the game should be balanced around? I personally (survivor main bias sort of warning siren) think the chase should be balanced around the 1v1 but slightly adjusted, (aka ironworks window getting banned) but the other objectives should be balanced around the 1v4 and adjusted so they cannot have significant portions of the game done within the first chase. This could be done somehow, I'm not sure. Which is why I'm asking for your feedback, please try to be civil, all feedback is greatly appreciated.
Comments
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"he reason for balancing around the 1v4 makes sense, it is a 1v4 in a whole, but in the chase, it isn't. This formula would also equal (if both sides are equally as skilled) a 4 kill 0 survival rate."
This is already incorrect on concept. That would not equate to a 4k 0 survival in that circumstance.
It isn't a matter of choosing which one to balance around, the game IS a 4v1 not a 1v1, that is objective, not subjective.
The game is supposed to be balanced around a 4v1 as that's what the game is. The reason the game is so unbalanced right now is because they aren't doing that. They care more about the individuals experience rather than the game as a whole which in turn makes each survivor have way more powerful than they should be. This leads to top tier games being about did the survivor mess up or not instead of was the killer skillful. I mention the killers skillfulness being the factor because he is defacto supposed to be the power role in a 1v1, "supposed to" being the key words here.
The survivors goal should be to waste as much killer time as possible before going down, but he should go down. That isn't what we currently have.
I play both sides at rank 1 and I am currently way stronger on survivor than I should be.
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You can't balance around 1v1 when you still have 3 others unaccounted for.
If the 1v1 is "balanced" how are you suppose to handle the other 3 unless you have to forfeit the "win" over to the original person you were 1v1ing?
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How is this even a question?
It's a team of 4 versus 1 Killer, The Killer has to by default be stronger than a single survivor to even be remotely balanced.
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The main thing is, the chase is the only skillful interaction between the killer and the survivor, if the game is balanced around the 1v4, the survivors skill doesn't account for unless the survivor is 4x better than the killer.
But if it's a 1v1, the killer must be 4x better. Which doesn't account for the killers skill.
There isn't a very clear choice.
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It could be said the same for in the chase, you can't balance around the 1v4 when you're only chasing 1 survivor.
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If the game was balanced around 1v4 that doesn't just automatically not make the survivor skill matter in a 1v1 chase. Their skill is prolonging the chase as much as possible. You don't need 4x the skill.
The goal is to waste time, the survivors aren't supposed to get away in a chase as much as they do now.
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But the only skillful interaction between the killer and the survivor is the chase. Which is a 1v1
But the game is a 1v4
But the interaction where skill is involved is a 1v1
It's hard to choose.
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If the killer is 4x as powerful, as 1 survivor, the survivor would need 4x the skill to successfully not get hit or go down.
If we're going by prolonging the chase, we can't accurately measure a chase, but let's say we can, the survivor would go down 4x as fast. But we can't measure it. The map tiles decide how long a chase goes on.
Balancing around a 1v1 in a chase and 1v4 in a whole are both correct. Both have their own merits and are correct in their own way.
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"If the killer is 4x as powerful, as 1 survivor, the survivor would need 4x the skill to successfully not get hit or go down."
They are supposed to get hit or go down.
"Balancing around a 1v1 in a chase and 1v4 in a whole are both correct. Both have their own merits and are correct in their own way."
There isn't a 1v1 mode, it IS a 4v1. You balance around a 4v1 because it is a 4v1. You don't balance around a 1v1 because it's not a 1v1.
Balancing around a 1v1 when it's not a 1v1 makes the game unbalanced.
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Every hour someone spends learning a killer or the survivor goes into the chase. There are very little other things that have a strong learning curve that aren't involved with the chase.
If the killer is balanced around the 1v4, the survivors skill is ignored.
This is an example, but old legion was the definition of ignoring skill, because no matter how good you are, you are going to die. It didn't matter if you were 100s of times better you were going to die.
If a survivor is better than a killer, the survivor should win. If a killer is better than a survivor, the killer should win. But the fact is we can't do that in a game with 4 survivors.
But we can't balance around the 1v4, because the entirety of the time you put into learning a killer and survivor is for the chase.
There is a 1v1 mode, it's called the chase. But the game as a whole, is a 1v4. There is not a correct solution.
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Both....
If there’s no 1v1 (Micro) aspect there’s no ranking system... anyone can play killer and win against survivors as they’re designed to go down for the killer just playing.
And 1v4 (Macro) is important to get a certain result: - 62.5% kills per deaths on average.
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"If the killer is balanced around the 1v4, the survivors skill is ignored."
No, it's not. It just means they will be able to drag the chase out a little bit longer the more skilled they are.
"But we can't balance around the 1v4, because the entirety of the time you put into learning a killer and survivor is for the chase."
Of which allows you to waste more time in the chase so your teammates can get more time on gens. That makes complete sense.
"There is a 1v1 mode, it's called the chase."
The game is about 4 survivors trying to escape, not 1 individual survivor. You're wanting to balance around the experience of 1 individual person rather than the game as whole. This logic ruins the games balance.
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You talk about the surivior goal to waste the killer's time to win, but how can they if the killer is always going to end chases quicker than they can do gens? If all killers was buff to be a 4 vs 1 then how do you expect noob suriviors to win or to understand the game? The kill rate already shows killers doing well of getting a likely chance of 2 kills each game, so imagine what the game would be like for noob suriviors if killers were buff even more.
Not only that, but how is it fair for a rank 20 killer to be comparable to a rank 1 surivior? By them eliminating the 1 vs 1 aspect of the game, then any killer of any rank can beat a rank 1 surivior team. So how is it fair for a person who spend hours on the game to lose to someone who spent one hour playing? The whole point of wasting time is the 1 vs 1 aspect of the game, so taking it away. There is nothing a surivior can do to waste time more than a minute if all killers were buff more.
When you speak of it focusing on a 4 vs 1 aspect, then do you expect all killers to be strong enough to beat an swf team? In that case, then how do you expect solo suriviors to win games?
You are also wrong about killers not getting 4k each game because if we look at the statistics, it clearly shows all killers being capable of getting more than 2 kills and 2 escapes. So if they were to buff killers to a 4 vs 1. Then it's common sense to assume the kill rate of all killers will increase massively. Especially Freddy and Spirit who has a 75% chance.
Individual experience is another reason for the 1 vs 1 aspect because what's the point playing a game where no matter how much experience you gain, you will always lose to a rank 20 killer. Not only that, but when in chases you chances of lasting is like 20 seconds. What enjoyment would the surivior gain out of it? Not only that, but the killer won't gain any enjoyment out of it because there will be no challenge to them.
So no one should say the game should only be focus on a 1vs1 or 1 vs 4. It should only be focus on both because thats the closest way of making it balance.
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Most of the balance issues I feel come from the inherent disconnect between the survivors acting as a team with coordination(SWF) and without(A group of 4 randoms). It becomes much harder to balance perks and killer powers when there is so much variance between how people will cooperate in any given match. There is no way to know what your other fellow survivors will bring to the table unless you are SWF and with that when you are organized you can win with minimal losses(Assuming that a killer is of equal skill to the survivors) because the game is not balanced around total cooperation.
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I agree with absolutely everything. There isn't a clear cut 1v1 or 1v4 chase because dbd is such a different game.
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I agree, if we balance around 1v4 swfs, solo survivors quit. If we balance around 1v1 solo survivors, killers quit. If we balance around 1v4 solos, solo survivors quit and killers quit. There isn't clear cut solutions.
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1v4, killer is supposed to stronger than individual survivors. It's the core of an asymetric survival horror game. Most of the problems with this game stem from the "gen rush" issue. The survivors main objective (gens) is boring and too easy. Once that and the map designs are fixed then the devs can hopefully, balance the game properly.
Post edited by Hag.is.Dtier on1 -
The survivors skill will be ignored, if we balance around a 1v4, the survivor could be better than the killer and still lose.
If we balance around a 1v4, survivors hours and time they've spent putting into the game will be wasted. The only other interactions require the holding of a button and sometimes pressing another button
The game is a 1v4, but the main interaction in the chase, which is why killers need to be stronger outside of the chase or something needs to be done to stop generator completion while a chase is happening.
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"You talk about the surivior goal to waste the killer's time to win, but how can they if the killer is always going to end chases quicker than they can do gens?"
That literally is not what happens at all. Survivors can currently do gens vastly faster than a killer has time to complete his objective.
"If all killers was buff to be a 4 vs 1 then how do you expect noob suriviors to win or to understand the game?"
They practice and improve at the game like any other game. You balance from the top down, not the bottom up. This is how every other successful game functions.
"The kill rate already shows killers doing well of getting a likely chance of 2 kills each game, so imagine what the game would be like for noob suriviors if killers were buff even more."
No, the devs have already stated you should NOT be drawing conclusions from this data as it is HEAVILY flawed and inaccurate. The devs have stated this over and over and over on these forums but posts like these keep coming. There are a multitude of factors this data does not take into account which is why the devs have said this.
"Not only that, but how is it fair for a rank 20 killer to be comparable to a rank 1 surivior?"
No one is comparing a rank 20 killer to rank 1 survivor.
"By them eliminating the 1 vs 1 aspect of the game, then any killer of any rank can beat a rank 1 surivior team"
No, just because the game would be balanced around a 1v4 does not mean no skill is required to win the game.
"So how is it fair for a person who spend hours on the game to lose to someone who spent one hour playing?"
That literally isn't what happens at all. We have a ranking system. Yes it is a flawed ranking system, but what you saying isn't what happens outside of a swf.
"The whole point of wasting time is the 1 vs 1 aspect of the game, so taking it away. There is nothing a surivior can do to waste time more than a minute if all killers were buff more."
I have literally said that the point is to waste the killers time, I have never said to take that away. A minute? Seriously? If the chases lasted a minute ya'll have completely incinerated that killer with 0 kills unless he stands in front of you facecamping. The game was not designed for chases to last even remotely close to one minute. If you look at chase times compared to gen times this is clear. If your chases are lasting that long and ya'll aren't completely destroying the killer then you are playing at low ranks and your team is doing absolutely nothing.
"You are also wrong about killers not getting 4k each game because if we look at the statistics, it clearly shows all killers being capable of getting more than 2 kills and 2 escapes. So if they were to buff killers to a 4 vs 1. Then it's common sense to assume the kill rate of all killers will increase massively. Especially Freddy and Spirit who has a 75% chance."
It has already been said that these stats are NOT accurate and you should not be drawing conclusions from them, said by the devs. Stop trying to use these flawed stats.
"Individual experience is another reason for the 1 vs 1 aspect because what's the point playing a game where no matter how much experience you gain, you will always lose to a rank 20 killer."
That is not what is being said whatsoever. Making the game balanced around a 4v1 does not make you auto lose to a rank 20 killer. That's just ridiculous.
"Not only that, but when in chases you chances of lasting is like 20 seconds."
You do realize that with how short gen times are that for a killer to have a chance of winning he would have to down survivors in 20 seconds or less on every chase right? What you are saying is unreasonable is literally the requirement the killer has to have a chance of winning.
"Not only that, but the killer won't gain any enjoyment out of it because there will be no challenge to them."
Oh you mean as opposed to now with all the "fun" the killer is having getting looped for 5 gens? You act like the killer experience is fun in its current state.
"So no one should say the game should only be focus on a 1vs1 or 1 vs 4. It should only be focus on both because thats the closest way of making it balance."
The game IS a 4v1, so it should be balanced around a 4v1 this is simply common sense.
Based on your opinions I do not believe you play both sides at high rank. I think if you did your opinions would change a lot.
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We can't balance around a 1v1 chase yet because of maps and tiles, generators relatively easy completion, if we fix most things in the game, a 1v1 balance or 1v4 balance may be possible, but currently there isn't an answer that is right
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You're acting as if you actually don't play both sides, you're arguments don't work because there isn't an answer to it, you cannot balance around a 1v4. You cannot balance around a 1v1.
If we were to balance around a 1v4 aka equally skilled survivor and killer, killer would be 4x as strong as that survivor.
But the chase isn't a 1v4.
The game isn't a 1v1
You're not right, no one is. This is simply what you think. This is not a subjective argument, the chase IS a 1v1, everything else is a 1v4.
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"The survivors skill will be ignored, if we balance around a 1v4, the survivor could be better than the killer and still lose."
Your objective as survivor in the chase is NOT to win, it is to waste time. The more skilled you are, the more time you waste before you go down.
"If we balance around a 1v4, survivors hours and time they've spent putting into the game will be wasted. The only other interactions require the holding of a button and sometimes pressing another button"
Where are you getting this? Just because a "power role" is vastly stronger than the survivor does not just magically mean his skill means nothing. Not to mention you are completely overlooking all skill based actions in the game besides the chase with this statement.
Post edited by Blueberry on1 -
Balance around 1v4 SWF. Buff solo Survivors to be comparable to SWF. Balance Killers accordingly.
I'm not convinced by your claims that if you balance around 1v4, then Survivor skill in a chase does not matter.
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1v1 in a 1v4 game? maybe Im missing out something. But even in the 1v1 eg the chase there are other players doing objective. I cant see where a 1v1 is. Only if 3 survs are dead, then you have a 1v1 and only because it resulted out of a 1v4. wth
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Making solos comparable to SWF is a good idea and would be the path if we were to balance around a 1v4 aspect. Again still the problems of the chase is a 1v1 so why should we balance around a 1v4 in the chase but then we have the argument why should we make the chase a 1v1 when everything else is a 1v4
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You balance the game overall around 1v4, not just one aspect (the chase).
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"You're acting as if you actually don't play both sides"
Just because I play both sides enough to understand one side is very much unbalanced doesn't imply I don't play both sides. That just doesn't make any sense.
"If we were to balance around a 1v4 aka equally skilled survivor and killer, killer would be 4x as strong as that survivor.
But the chase isn't a 1v4."
EXACTLY. That is entirely the point. The chase isn't a 4v1 so the survivor should be going down quite quickly. If he didn't (which is what we have now) the killer has no time to complete his objectives. An entire gen is 80 seconds...with 3 other people all working on them at the same time...
"You're not right, no one is. This is simply what you think. This is not subjective."
The game is a 4v1, so you balance around what the game is...a 4v1. That is objective, not subjective.
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The chase is the 1v1, but everything else is a 1v4.
If we balance for the 1v4, the survivor's skill In a chase doesn't matter
If we balance for a 1v1 the killer's skill doesn't matter in a game.
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"If we balance for the 1v4, the survivor's skill In a chase doesn't matter"
What do you base this on, exactly? It seems like you are just accepting this as truth without supporting the idea.
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If the devs would balance perfectly, they would longer the whole match time somehow and longer the chases accordingely.
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The reason for this is that even if the survivor is better, they will still lose the tile and receive a hit even if they were better, but because the killer is extremely stronger. The survivor can be better than the killer, but still get hit. That is how the 1v4 would go.
If we go off a 1v1 balance, the killer could be equally skilled and down a survivor, but because they didn't kill them fast enough, objectives got completed.
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If the Survivor is better than the Killer, can they not possibly prolong the chase to give their teammates the time they need?
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The chase isn't 1v1 unless every other survivor is dead.
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Pardon?
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the chase is 1v1 if you change the number of pallets. The amount is for 4 survivors not for 1 I think.
Why would the survivor skill not matter? Do you think balancing for 1v4 means insta downs in a chase? Pls a bit more context.
1v1 balance, why would killer skill not matter? Maybe balance means for you nerf one side into the ground? i dont get it sry
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If the game is balanced around a 1v1, then yes, but if not and balanced around a 1v4, the survivor would still lose regardless of their skill.
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You are just assuming that to be truth. How do you know you are right?
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The chase is between a survivor and a killer, a 1v1 base.
I don't think balancing for the 1v4 would mean insta downs. But it would mean even if the survivor was better than the killer, the killer would still successfully win.
And I don't think balancing for the 1v1 means the killer instantly loses every game. But the killer wouldn't have enough pressure to win the actual 1v4 which is everything else like objectives.
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There isn't a right option to balance around the 1v1 or the 1v4 right now.
We cannot make a definitive answer to what we should balance around currently.
And I do think if a side is more powerful then another side, the side that is more powerful will win if both players and equally skilled.
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The killer should always have the advantage in a chase but I don't agree with people saying that chases should be short and you aren't trying to win. Chases are pretty much the only enjoyable part of the game and this game will die if they make them short.
If you keep outplaying the killer, you deserve to have long chases and if you outplay the survivors as killers then you should be able to end chases fast.
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I didn't ask you about balancing around 1v4 vs 1v1. I asked you about your assertion that if you balance around 1v4, Survivors would lose regardless of their skill.
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I agree, taking everything into account the killer does have an advantage in chase currently, assuming we aren't on an ironworks window.
I feel if we give killers better advantages to slow objectives or just do something to make it to take more time to do the objectives, balancing around the 1v1 would be a better option. But if we want, we could buff solo survivors to the point where they are comparable to SWF, and we balance around a 1v4 swf, that wouldn't be horrible.
If the chase is ruined by the killer just being 4x stronger than you, and not being better than you. It would ruin the chase, which ruins the game.
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Because if I'm 4 times better than someone I'm going to win?
Even if they are better than me mechanically, I still have 4x the power.
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It's not accurate to say the chase is 1vs1, you can bodyblock, use a flashlight and mess with scratchmarks to interfere with a chase.
Anyway, game should be balanced around 4vs1. @Blueberry already gave some valid arguments.
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It could be a 1v1 or not, that's the problem, the game isn't a 1v1 but the chase is supposed to be but it can turn into that.
The game could be a 1v4 but then someone kills themselves on hook.
I do like Blueberry's arguments but in the end right now. There isn't a good answer, we would need to change a lot of things to balance around the 1v1 or the 1v4.
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is a 4v1 game, what do u think? balancing the game 1 v 1 would mean every survivor is as strong as the killer, if that ever seems to happen the game would die in that specific moment, actually in red ranks is already dying i wonder why, cause killers de rank (in purpose) to not play agaisnt red ranks.
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Hey anyone discussing this, found a video from someone that explains why both sides are technically right. I thank you all for the feedback and it has been very fun discussing.
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The chase, which is what your hours and efforts in learning the game go in to is (usually) a 1v1.
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Ah ok. thx for clarifying.
In base the chase is a 1v1 but only if you look at it seperated and cancle out most of the game. I think looking at it this way is way to abstract.
Well I think thats the case currently. if the killer is skilled and the survivor is also skilled, you wont be able to get chased for extremely long. And imo this is good. I think its impossible to compare killer to survivor skill because they are determined by differenct aspects. Still the Killer should have the advantage in the chase. and I think thats also one reason why the base speed of killers is usually higher than survivors.
I think what you want is to be able to compare survivor skill to killer skill. so that you dont get hooked if your skill as survivor is higher than the skill of the killer. Well at least it sounds to me that way.
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It's the main issue of the game as a whole is a 1v4, but the skillful interaction between both sides happen in a 1v1, if we made objectives for survivors something skillful or take longer, we could potentially balance around a 1v1, but there isn't a clear cut answer.
I think we should strive for if you're a better killer you'll win, and if you're a better survivor you'll win. But we would need to change a lot of things to balance around the 1v1 or 1v4.
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