Oni is essentially a better Myers. Oni snowballs too quickly and is oppressive.
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I just wait for the Oni nerf. Not that think he deserves a nerf - I have not even play him/face him once, but if I think on all the other killers after release...
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ScottJund is a killer main. And he's a really good one too. He got the opinion, that killers, that aren't easy loopable with pallets are uncounterable. If he would play more survivor he would probably understand the skillcap of survivors.
He also thinks the game is a 1v1. xD
Anyway i pointed out several methods to counter oni in my last posts, not gonna mess with people that don't want to make use of them anymore.
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I suppose the argument could be made that he is a Meyers mixed with Billy. Honestly, I think his perks, while good, are terrible for him, and better for other killers. They should have been made as regular perks.
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🤯 WWWWHAT?? I haven't played Michael since I returned, what a horrible decision! EW1 Michael builds were already weak and situational enough!
Now they go and remove the only unique benefit of playing Michael? That ######### sucks... I mean there is no way that ######### was over preforming and I don't remember a single thread asking for it to be nerfed since I was last here, why would they even do that? Literally no point moving at 110% just to see through walls when survivors will basically know to run when spine chill triggers... I'm fairly disgusted with that
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I really disagree that he is a better Myers. Myers has stealth on his side, as well as other small advantages over Oni. I do agree that Oni is probably more powerful than Myers, but I do not find him to be really op in any way.
In the ptb I would have maybe agreed that he doesn't have enough counterplay, but now I think he has enough counterplay, using pallet or window loops are one of those counterplays. At T-L walls for example, his dash is pretty bad. It depends on the area of the map and the loops you are at of course, but to be fair that's with most killers. Wider or rather circle shaped loops are very good against him, since his dash will not allow him to get into a position where he can hit the survivor with a flick at the end.
Using your environment to force him out of the dash is very important, and that is counterplay. Always try and run in the other direction of which he is dashing at, while having some object between you and him.
Obviously a good Oni will be able to catch you before his power ends the majority of the time, especially depending on the loops you have in your vicinity. But if there was a 50/50 chance for survivors to outlive your power, he'd be utter trash. Just image him getting his power, not downing anyone 50% of the time, and then having to recollect more blood orbs. That's just not possible in a game with such short gen times. He needs to be really powerful while his power is up, since he doesn't always have it up and gens go very fast. Killers both need strong chase potential and good map pressure in order to combat the fast gen times. And I personally want more viable killers, not less.
The counterplay, like with most killers, is a way to prelong the chase, and you do have these possiblities at your disposal. Using pallet and window loops well, and using the environment to force him out of his dash, wasting as much time as possible. Of course, depending on your surroundings, you might also be able to lose Oni in a chase which is of course gigantic since his power doesn't last too long. However, Counterplay should not be the potential for a survivor to run the killer around for ages, especially since his power is on a timer. He'd be useless if survivors had a good chance to outlive his power before it expires, if he finds the survivor early enough. And by god I do not want this killer to become unviable, he is porbably the most fun I have had for a while, both playing as him and going against him.
One last counterplay against him is also being more stealthy. Once you hear his power go off, you should be more cautious and try to avoid him as much as possible. That is indeed counterplay, since his power is on a cooldown. The longer he doesn't find a survivor, the less power he'll have left when he finally finds a survivor.
There is one change I would like to see though. I think he should lose like 30% of his power charge instead of only 10 or 15 % (not quite sure what it is) when he downs a survivor, but instead survivors he hooks should drop like 6 or 8 blood orbs instead of 2, just to nerf his slugging potential a bit more. I still feel like Oni with Infectious Fright and Monitor is still too good.
Also, his flick will most likely see a nerf, through a bug fix, which will most likely make his chase potential just slightly weaker. And that's the only nerf his power needs in my opinion. He's such an awesomely designed killer in my opinion.
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Myers speed is actually 105% when in EW1 🙃.
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No mither doesn't do anything. You still produce blood orbs, unless they changed it from the PTB, so No mither is actually worse.
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"No counterplay"
You are just throwing words around from the spirit argument. Even in his blood fury, you can still loop him normally. He has a slightly larger lunge, but a bigger penalty on a miss, and can possibly do his dash, if he's really good, but mostly their power becomes a burden at good loops.
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And killers don't have fun playing weak killers why survivors don't understand that? He Is not op at all as Billy Is not op neither.
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So basically what I'm reading here is, a killer is oppressive if they can capitalize on your mistakes but they are also oppressive if they outplay you? If you get caught in a bad position the killer deserves to punish that. Sounds to me that you're a little biased.
Look. Deny him his first hit and he's a M1 killer with no power. If he manages gets his power, then you get two global warnings. One when his meter is full and one when he transforms. Find a structure and he can't down you. He's also ######### on every single indoor map, and even more ######### om his own map. So, I don't think you understand the word "oppressive". Oni snowballs if you allow him to snowball. Like all good killers do. Release nurse (high movement speed and 3 blinks base) was oppressive. There wasn't much yli could do against her. I played survivor during that time, so I'm very acquainted with. Oni is just strong (but still highly loopable). Learn the difference.
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Blood orbs only reach obscene amounts when people decide not to heal. Also, this is a false equivalency since it isn't like Legion needs to eat scratch marks to frenzy.
fI they change blood orbs to disappear on every blood fury then they need to highly increase how many blood orbs survivors create to compensate, as well as the blood increasing addons. If survivors decide not to heal against a killer that gains strength from you being injured, they deserve to be punished. Like cleansing against plague.
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This I have to dispute...
- Break up the paragraph. Its hard to read.
- Oni is terrible on Console compared to both of those. He needs major buffs or a rework to even be playable on Console high ranks. His kit is atrocious. His dash can be good, but his strike is so clumsy I find myself disregarding his one shot for more consistent hits. Survivors on console can easily avoid it, since there is no flick on his swing on console. Myers at least can turn with his instadown, and Billy can too. I don't know what beHavior was thinking with not having it on Console... he is low tier, but has the potential to be higher if they change his kit slightly...
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"I don't think I've seen an Oni have a bad game yet, myself included on him."
Wait 'til you get a load of me. ;)
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"I don't think I've seen an Oni have a bad game yet, myself included on him."
Wait 'til you get a load of me. ;)
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To those who say you can't flick on console.
Post edited by Hag.is.Dtier on0 -
They just need to fix using Q/E to bypass the flick restrictions. It makes his attack to unfair, and hits that shouldn't be possible become easy when you can turn your character far easier than intended. All the balance is thrown out the window.
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you can "flick" if you have the capacity to. it's called max or high sensitivity and knowing how responsive your controller is. if you know how long it takes to 180 you can 180. if you know how long it takes to 90 you can 90 and so on as well.. it's purely muscle memory just like with mouse an keyboard. speak for yourself when talking about how hard it is to do something on controller.
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He still is incredibly weak in other areas.
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How about we let him be out more than 5 days before wanting him nerfed. I am sure BHVR will be looking at stats with him and if he is overperforming then they will gut him and add to the already crowded class of meh killers.
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Oni is far better on PC than console (same with Nurse and Huntress). I really want them to consider this before making any changes because a nerf to a PC killer can be drastically different on console.
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I mean, Oni requires hits with a full terror radius, whilst Myers only requires vision with a 0/16m terror radius (8m with M&A).
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Hide in lockers until his power is gone. Just that simple
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Ok Dwight! Just kidding, I guess there is a counter... Just curious on how long is it until the crows find you?
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Oni feels nothing like Myers. Michael plays on stealth, and can get up close to survivors to attack, and has a much easier time of insta downing them. Unlike Oni, especially on console, plays like a clumsy awkward Hillbilly.
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Playing as him is really fun, probably the most fun I've ever had with any killer but I don't understand why they thought designing a killer with insane slugging potential was a good idea. Nobody enjoys getting constantly getting slugged.
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60 seconds on the first crow 75 on the second, 90 on the 3rd where the noise notification will appear. Even if you do get caught getting into a locker will force him to grab you, and then he will loose his power and his pressure with it.
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I'm a devotion 10 player red rank killer and rank 1 survivor....you might need to get a new game if you truly believe his rhetoric because you're just being salty.
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On PC he may be good due the flick working as intended. But on consoles seems to be trash tier due hardware limitations (joysticks controller). So Yep he can't get nerfed it would Make more unusable than already Is on consoles.
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That's why they make him not lose charges on his power if picking up a survivor anymore and make him lose these charges when downing, so his slugging potential is greatly reduced, giving him incentivizes to hook people instead.
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i would argue that he isn't. I would instead argue that players are assuming he's weak because they have yet to level him in order to get all level 3 perks.
there's nothing wrong with being a basic attack only killer. Oni needs 3 perks to function in my opinion.
A nurses calling
Coulorophobia
sloppy butcher
and blood echoes.
I personally feel these are the best perks for the job. You have 4.6 movement. if you're not just purely bad at the game you will find a survivor and force him or her into feeding you blood skittles. There's too much of a reliance on ruin and barbecue and chili. Just eliminate your prey one survivor at a time.
They're going to get scared of your demon form and try to heal. so prevent it.
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"Oni snowballs too quickly"
I have to disagree with that quote. Yes he is oppressive. YES he is a better myers. YES to everything else.
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I don't like him personally. He punishes me for having a bad team more than any other killer to date. It is always an awful match if my potato team feeds him his overpowered ability for free.
Those two first M1s at the start of the game are the main counterplay to oni, and it's kinda dumb.
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All info from Myer's was gathered from the wiki, his lunge range is only increased by 0.1 seconds when compared to his tier 2 version. Tier 2 is a 0.5 second lunge and Tier 3 is a 0.6 second lunge.
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If we take a standard short side and long side loop with a pallet, you'll get at most 2 loops in before having to thrown down the pallet or dying because of the increased lunge range. So Oni will just eat that pallet in a second, forcing you to try getting to another pallet in less than 5 seconds, that's if the Oni doesn't just use Demon dash to catch up within 3-4 seconds instead. Trying to avoid his demon dash by cutting a corner or such is good in theory but you've decreased your distance from him and chances are he'll be able to naturally catch up to you before getting to another pallet or forcing that pallet drop even earlier to avoid his lunge. I see that as a common scenario and it only eats up maybe 20 seconds of his time, meaning he'll only lose about half of his power. Which is where he starts to snowball as either 1 hit or 10 blood orb pairs will get his power back instantly (Consider that blood orbs do not despawn and are spawning whenever Oni is within terror radius of a survivor that is hurt)
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Ahh! Well like I said I only know who you are because of Cry and the person was being derogatory because the poster mentioned you, which made me assume you must be a survivor main if someones using them watching you in a weaponized way.
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A killer is oppressive when they can capitalize on a single mistake and start to snowball the game from there, making a mistake against almost any killer guarantees a hit which is the usual reward for capitalizing on a mistake. Billy may chainsaw you but the degree of mistake made by that compared to an M1 is significantly different. Oni on the other hand gains the benefit of getting the hit (the usual reward of a killer) but ontop of that gaining half of his power instantly and now either filling the map with blood orbs or forcing a survivor to heal them taking 16 seconds out of gen time. Alternatively the Oni chases them for 40 seconds (If the survivor does literally nothing else but running, any actions such as vaulting,dropping pallets,crouching and entering lockers increase the blood orbs drop, significantly reducing the time it takes to get his power) at minimum and has his power. Also assuming he can't catch people in structures is dumb, maybe disgusting ones like Rancid Abbitor or Coal tower. Also hiding for 45 seconds when most of the time his power is popped after hooking someone is pretty catastrophic. Essentially making his ability "Survivors may not work on gens or hook rescue for 45 seconds" which is pretty ridiculous. So that leaves 15 seconds to save a survivor after his power ends,no gens being worked on during those 45 seconds and this also assumes he didn't go back to the hook to ensure a phase 2 on a survivor. All of this because of 2 healthy survivor hits or 1 hit and 20-40 seconds of blood orb collecting, yeah I think that's the definition of a oppressive killer. If you can argue against that scenario then please do because it's very common for Oni to still have his power and come back to the hook to someone being rescued and down the other person quickly or losing his power and getting a free hit on someone, getting him 40% there to another "Do nothing for 45 seconds" power.
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That sums it up pretty well. Once he gets his first power activation, he's probably going to down someone and continue the blood collection cycle. So really, it's only those two M1s at the start that make or break him, and two M1s isn't a very high requirement for such a powerful ability.
Add in things like SWFs brining in a rank 16 noob or two, or unsafe maps like Hawkins, and there's usually no way your team will be able to deny those M1s very long.
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I would say Myers is better (depending on the map) because he is capable of sleath. Something oni can never be capable of doing. This usually allows him to get the first hit against his oppenent.
Most importantly thing which makes Myers the strongest killer in the game is his capability of moon walking. You can never find a killer capable of doing it as smoothly as Myers can.
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Paragraphs exist for a reason, i literally refuse to read this wall of text.
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You are right that once Oni gets the first two survivors injured, he gets more momentum and can regain his power quicker than when he has to gain his power for the first time. But to be fair outside of his power he is extremely weak, which is why he needs this to be viable.
Thing is, he would be extremely oppressive if he had no counterplay. But personally I would say he does have counterplay. And it's not just doing nothing 45 seconds long. The longer no survivor goes down after Oni has activated his power, the longer it will take him to regain his power. Obviously the Blood Orbs that spawn from injured survivors allow him to regain his power more quickly, but he still is forced to spend time in his weak form, and waste time absorbing Blood Orbs. So wasting as much of his time as possible when his power is activated is key for winning against him, and he does have counterplay to allow that.
I would agree that he regains his power too quickly if he had no counterplay during his power, but I don't see how he has no counterplay. Pallet and Window loops can still be used effectively against him. Of course his dash does help him in chases. But it does not have the turning capabilities to counter looping. Obviously with Oni, his counterplay very much depends on the size and overall structure of the loop you are approaching as survivor, from where you are approaching the loop, and from where Oni is dashing towards the loop. You can't just run around some of the game's loops like you normally would, but you definitely still have counterplay by taking usage of his inferior turning. Of course it's important to understand how his turning works and when he'll be able to make 90 degrees turns and when not. At some loops you'll have to try and mindgame him, but of course that allows him some counterplay as well.
Take the T-L walls for example, his dash is pretty useless at those loops. It's much better at jungle gyms, but the tight turns you can make and the safe pallet give you fair counterplay as well. Long window loops like the two windows loop of Wretched shop is pretty useless against him when he is dashing since every side of the shop is long enough so he can get in position while strafing to turn 90 degrees when he has to. But if you are at one of the windows you can mindgame him by vaulting the window while he is charging his dash and expecting you to run around the outside of the shop. Of course he can expect you to vault the window again and react accordingly, but in that case simply running along the outside of the shop can give you some distance again, as long as you don't try and loop the entire shop.
Of course, he has counterplay as well and can outplay you, which is good. A killer needs this to be viable.
Stealth and losing Oni in a chase is also important. Doesn't mean you need to stay off gens for 45 seconds, but you need to be much more cautious. Losing him in a chase is huge because he just wasted some of his power on you and didn't get anything out of it.
So, I agree you could call him oppressive, but I personally do think he is quite a balanced killer at the moment. He is very strong when his power is active, but outside of his power he is the weakest killer in the game. And as survivor, you definitely do have counterplay, especially to prolong a chase as much as possible. The longer you survive, the more Blood Orbs he will have to regain after his power deactivates. He needs to be powerful while his power is active though, because if his power could be outlived half the time, he would be really weak and not able to combat the fast gen times. A killer needs good map pressure and chase potential to combat the gen repair speed.
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i didn't realize as survivors you were supposed to have fun losing against a killer?
okay maybe that's a bit harsh to put it that way, but the fun of a survivor should be outwitting your killer - not being rewarded with joy and excitement from failure?
and make no mistake - getting hit is a failure. if you're getting hit because you lost the chase then you're a failure for losing the chase? if you get hit because you're body blocking then your teammate is a failure for losing the chase and you're bearing the brunt of their weight.
if you're getting downed and then your ally's lack of awareness causes them to also get downed... well that's just the game punishing greed and lack of awareness is it not?
the concept of slugging - downing everyone then hooking them - is a tactic that rewards the killer for winning chases quickly and punishes altruistic actions by survivors. it's a form of baiting. it grants bloodpoints in brutality and awards malicious points for emblems. It's a literal gameplay mechanic that is designed into the core of what it means to be a killer.
with that in mind i disagree with your assessment that oni should not exist because he can slug people. there are counters to slugging both in strategy and in build. there are counters to counter slugging. there are counters to counter counter slugging and so on.
the fact that players get upset when the killer or survivor plays non-traditional is laughable and can be reduced down to the equivalent of someone blaming their opponent for not playing fair because there was a rule somewhere they'd never heard of. it's honestly just a lack of flexibility on the player's part and a bitterness that this supposed "always works in every scenario" build and strategy they've developed actually doesn't work in all scenarios.
18 killers each with 3 perks a piece and 12 basic perks. If you can do combinations that equates up to 720,720 combinations of perks times 18 different killers and you get a little under 13 million combinations.
there are 22 survivors with 3 perks and 14 additional perks. that means 1,581,580 combinations in sets of 4. since survivors don't have any innate difference the 34.75 million different combinations of kits don't matter because survivors are pretty much all identical once you get past perks. Even so you have 1.5 million combinations of perks.
and these numbers don't equate for add-ons or items.
i'm sorry - but if you can't figure out a build to counter slugging... then either A you're bad or B survivors are focused too hard on rushing generators and running away which makes the entire community of survivors bad as a whole.
If we consider every gameplay mechanic from both sides i think it's fair to say that there are some gaps in the perk system.
to quote a forum post on steam
The nurse is a prime example of a character that was designed around slugging and slugging is and was a tactic that is supported by the developers.
But let's just do some gameplay theory for a moment and come up with a build that counters slugging.
no mither, unbreakable, flip-flop, and tenacity.
wow. look at all that hard work i put into coming up with a build that counters slugging.
it's not that it's not fun. it's that people refuse to play this game with a brain. let's say you want to play the game, but don't want to commit 4 perks to anti-slugging. okay. then instead of both no mither and unbreakable just bring unbreakable. or just bring flip flop and tenacity. the choices are endless. bring left behind if you think you can find the hatch while downed.
there are several mechanics in this game. to rule that 1 mechanic is unfun is subjective. even if a large majority of players ruled that slugging is unfun it's an integral part of the game's overall design. it forces choices that otherwise would not be necessary. imagine instead if getting hit 2 times made you automatically teleport to a hook? would that be fun and engaging gameplay? no. imagine if you automatically died if you get hit 5 times instead of getting downed? would that be fun and engaging gameplay? arguably no. at that point it'd be a chase simulator.
part of this problem stems from the fact that the community is afraid of change. especially at higher ranks where killers are monsters and survivors are even more so. all competitive multiplayer games suffer this issue of "how soon is too soon for change" league of legends, rainbow six siege, for honor, rocket league, dota, call of duty, halo, etc. all these games suffer from this controversial, but necessary aspect. high level players and professional streamers get locked into grinding away at a game to become skilled, but how can one become skilled if the game is always changing? flexibility and research are skills that we should promote. If someone wants to make a living trying to be the best they should at least have to put some effort into it. how much effort is debatable.
so to answer your statement of "slugging potential in killer design" it's because it's an integral part of the game. if you don't enjoy it that's fine. personally? i don't enjoy killers with stalk features as a survivor because it makes it impossible for me as a solo player to win when some yeehee is running around trying to make big boi plays for his twitch stream. I also don't enjoy survivors that refuse to be healed because that's annoying as hell. I bring empathy for a reason and people just keep walking around trying to benefit from this is not happening or self care when it's high risk low reward. But they're not about to take those features out either.
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Wow, that's a long post.
I don't have a problem with the slugging mechanic, slugging isn't wrong, it's a legitimate strat and there are counters for it. I'm not denying these things at all.
I just don't like it when they design killers that excel at unfun game mechanics. Perfect example of this is leatherface. He isn't particularly strong in chases. What he does best is camping and no one enjoys getting camped. It's just a bad design choice in my opinion. Slugging isn't nearly as bad as getting camped but I still think they should avoid designing killers this way.
That being said, I think the Oni is fine right now and I don't really mind going against him.
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i would argue that cannibal isn't a camper. I know it's a meme at this point about dungeon camping leatherface, but that's just that. a meme. you can do that with any killer.
leatherface is about and has always been about trying to recreate the fear that you get from having a maniacal chainsaw wielder chasing you down, injure you, and drag you back to his shack. all the while everyone else wanders about aimlessly trying to figure out where you went. bbq and chili reward him for chasing. franklins demise is anti items - and where do items always always always spawn? in chests. the only guaranteed chest is in the basement. and what leads to the basement? a staircase that funnels survivors perfect for a chainsaw dance. this is why "basement camping leatherface" exists. it's not an intended gameplay mechanic, but it is an accepted practice. bottom line is that if you're hiding in the basement it's up to the survivors to figure that out. if you get downed - no one on the map is supposed to know thanks to his knock out perk. it's not a matter of bad gameplay. it's a matter of people being gullible and too heavily reliant on their aura perks. or for lack of a better term - it's punishment for sticking your nose where it don't belong.
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Play EW1 Myers build with Gideon's sacrifice = salt gathering.
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" please give me constructive feedback and a list of counterplays BUT DONT USE THE OBVIOIS COUNTERPLAYS THAT WORK AGAINST HIM NYOHH THATS NOT FAIR!"
seriously man. At the beginning of the game if ur looping him play extremely safe and try to not get mind gamed. Thats enough time for your teammates to do 2 3 gens if he s smart and leaves you if he sees he cant catch you.
Yeah i get it you cant avoid mindgames sometimes.but he s not that hard to loop in his power : you have to be unpredictable and take advantage of the fact that he can t make point perfect turns with his dash and that once he starts his attack he cant cancel it.
If he gets his powe and he had the time to kill all of you... well no offense but he earned it , that just means you couldnt avoid him which was your fault. Indeed there are some unforunate and unlucky situations sometimes that lose you the game but stuff like that happens all the time with both sides. Oni is great because he capitalizes on mistakes and there is a different playstyle against him.
You cant win every game man. And if you dont win any games... trust me , you dont need any " constructive feedback " , the answer becomes obvious. How come people can escape against him ? Riiiight , " bad oni " . You win some and you lose some.
Oni is not overtuned / overpowered and hopefully they will not change him. He already got a few deserves adjustements from the PTB . He doesnt need to be changed.
Spirits been changed , nurse s been changed , now there are no more broken killers. Hopefully they will fix solo survivor and then buff low killers.
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First times I played against oni, I found it as an absolute nightmare just like the first few times I played agains hillbilly. Now, to be honest, It's just a hard killer to beat. I play red rank and I find them hard to beat as all killers should be in this rank. Oni, to me, right now is a 50/50. It's not hard to dodge in most maps, if you get caught in open field if he turns into demon, you go down, if you are in a loop, specially with vaults, it's very hard for them to hit me. Even if they do, they waist lots of time and it's a matter of who you're pared with, if your team is good, they get at least one gen done or 2, if they just hide in a corner until he changes back to normal then yes... it will seem like a nightmare to play against!
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Excuse my mistakes but i'm on the phone.
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Rank and devotion means nothing in this. It's mostly about how oppressive and how far hard he can snow ball. I'm pretty sure you're mostly a red rank killer main with like 2% of your games being survivor. Seems like you're the salty one here.
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Rank 1 survivor also...I stream 6 days a week and played dbd about 8 hours a day up until this weekend. I think you're just a salty survivor.
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