An idea to balance SUPER STRONG windows.
Something that I think has been long talked about since the introduction of many maps, and that I personally believe could be balanced better, are strong windows, specifically on buildings like "The Foundry" in Ironworks of Misery or "Grim Pantry" in Backwater Swamp... etc etc
Many have given their opinions, but from what I've gathered it's either been rework the entire structure by blocking the window or remove it altogether. Personally I am not a fan of either one.
So I came up with this idea where, the window will now have the ability to be destroyed (not by the killer) but by the survivor! Basically the window will go through several "crumbling" phases where the more you vault it, the more it crumbles to the ground, until it is no longer a window and all that is left is a doorway.
Here is a quick visual I made in PS for what I thought each phase could look like. Note that I only created 3 Phases, because currently the entity blocker happens at 3 vaults, but there could be more added depending on what would be considered "fair and balanced"...
This way the window still remains strong, but also overusing it can make it deplete. It also causes the survivors to be more cautious as to whether they want to preserve it or use it right away. Thus creating more creative plays rather than just everyone being like "Let me go back to that window again". The idea behind "phases" is so that if another player goes to try to use it, they understand that the window has already been used and therefore will know how many times they could vault it.
I also believe this could add other fun/creative perks for devs to create. All in all, I think this is a fair way to balance it without completely making it useless or overpowered.
What do you guys think? Share your thoughts please.
Comments
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Wow, that's... actually really interesting. Like how pallets are consumable, so are god windows. That would make it so strong loops can exist and the killer isn't punished just for it being present. Honestly I would love to see something like this in action, and it wouldn't require the devs to compeltely rework every single busted map.
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I remember I've seen someone suggest this before on Steam. Not a bad idea.
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Thanks! I had this idea and shared it with my friends and they thought it would be great, so I decided to share it here.
I'm happy you got where I was going with it. :)
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This is a very intriguing idea, I have to admit.
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Interesting g but then all that would occur is the windows being used to chain with other tiles..therefore keeping the issue present..but the creativity is indeed interesting
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For me, I don't see the issue with chain looping tiles because often that requires some thinking, unless you really really know the map.
The problem for me is that many survivors know how strong this loop is. Heck, I do as a survivor. lol So once the entity is no longer blocking it, the next survivors goes back to that same loop. preserving the rest of the pallets that they would have otherwise used if they didn't have this strong loop fresh and ready to go throughout the whole match.
This keeps how strong it is, but as @PistolTimb pointed out it doesn't punish the killer for the window simply being there the whole time.
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This idea really gets me thinking. Survivors would have to reserve god windows for emergencies and it would punish window humpers big time, but then it punishes the other teammates if someone uses them inefficiently like shack pallet.
This would make god windows have more of a skillcap to them by chaining them with structures while trying to reserve the window usage.
I'd like to see this idea put in a PTB in the future!
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Thats a pretty cool idea actually, i would love to see it
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Or you can turn them into doors and skip the other steps
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Or they can put an opening to walk through a few meters away and remove obstacles so you can fast vault the window.
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Love it.
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god windows you said already can be blocked from bamboozle with shorter distance after vault
i don't think you talking about balance, because this not even legit for discuss from current stats
you also forgot to mention is this work in chase or commonly,
it was most important part of your idea, that telling just you lack of understanding about this game
survivor is much slower than killer
you can't reach any windows from most gen spots, than you should let them fix safer zones first in those few good window existing maps
because those are safer spots so you won't get looped from same structures they could advantage of
or bamboozle, that simple
some maps just can't loop even fairly without using those spots like prenn or campbell
how about learn this game first from watching other players in youtube
before you write some faction favoring plat buffing idea without any analysis
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the dude just gave an idea, no need to get hostile with him.
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Chill out. He gave an idea.
Why is his idea bad?
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Just kill loops at that point entirely lol. Your skill counters a surv's so its your skill alone that actually makes these places powerful or just a small timegap.
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A few things.
1) It should take more than 3 vaults to completely degrade the window. Maybe 5 or 6, just because the Entity blocks it after 3 vaults.
2) Only rushed vaults should count. If you slow vault the window it shouldn't count, just because sometimes you may want to slow vault a window out of a chase to save time moving around the map.
3) After the window is destroyed, there should be a timer to when it repairs itself. 60 or 90 seconds seems reasonable.
Otherwise I kind of like this idea.
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Perhaps..but even if it was only used a couple of times that kind of chase can cost a killer the match
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I suggested this idea as a rank 1 survivor with over 3k hrs. That's not me flexing, that's my response to you when you say that I have no understanding of the game, just because I don't fail to acknowledge how overly strong these windows are.
The map that I specifically chose has plenty of good loops aside from that window. What I am suggesting isn't going to completely remove how strong it is, just balancing by adding a different feature. You still get a strong loop out of it, just not using it as a looping hub for whenever you don't feel like using other tiles.
If you don't like my idea, then I challenge you to share how you would change it. How would you balance a window that mostly everyone agrees is too strong?
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I agree with 1 and 2. That's why I was open to ideas about how many "phases" the window could go through.
Still on the fence on 3, only because I feel like allowing multiple vaults while only making fast vaults count already seems strong enough IMO.
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Well the goal should be to deter abuse of these windows. If someone uses it only at the very start and end of the game that's fine IMO. It's only when survivors use these windows throughout the entire game that they become a problem.
Also this should apply to all windows not just god windows for consistency, which is another reason why they should respawn after a certain amount of time.
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I specifically focused on these type of windows because I don't think the others are as problematic.
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Right but the devs aim for consistency. It honestly doesn't make sense for these specific windows to be affected by this mechanic and not others. It would be better to apply this to all windows, which then removes the "what defines a god window?" question from the equation and simplifies the whole thing.
Like when a new map comes out, how do we know what is a god window? How do we measure that? If a window is strong, at what point does it become a god window? We could find out after many hours of playing, but that's just janky honestly. It makes way more sense to have this as a universal mechanic, especially when you can have survivor or killer perks that work with this mechanic.
And like, sometimes a window is only a god window if it's arranged in a certain way next to a certain tile. Suffocation Pit potentially has several god windows in the middle area if the tiles spawn in the right orientation. Are we going to apply this mechanic to these specific windows in these specific orientations? How do we determine which orientations need the mechanic and which don't? Again it just makes the most sense to have a universal window mechanic of some kind.
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maybe half of chance you really knowing something but maybe not
first you didn't suggested any detail of your "balance" as you said
you should suggest exact time when you talk about balance
wheres evidence windows are overpowered? and whats your balancing?
i think you don't even know what to do with your idea, numbers and situations are all missing
you can pull idea whatever you want, but its not convincing enough right? so i said no with devs avg killrate, thats logic
because you sounded like average na player so bad killer told you stop "infinite" so you came up here with that situation thats what i guessed
i suggested rollback buff of middle vault itself because of here killer playerbase dried
you wrote nothing about actual balance except its title, i doubt you take any rebut of yours, because you still without standard
survivors are overpowered when they knowing something but it should be
because when killer can over perform survivors with "skill", that "skill" level in this game always braindead easy like old nurse or spirit because devs also caring console players but focusing pc when they balancing, so they always coming with avg killrates it may looked false for highly or lowly skilled players
and dead by daylight red rank is nothing, even bronze people at others can be red in this game
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I would still rather it be the killer that has to break down the wall when its on its last leg. That buys time still, looks better and further benefits the perk enduring.
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I understand the part about consistency, but these windows aren't like the rest IMO. In the sense that a killer literally has to break chase because once the entity unblocks it, the next survivor will run to it. Other windows don't have that kind of power.
The idea that every window could be destroyed just seems like a heavy nerf to me. I don't know if I could stand behind that. The reason people keep bringing up places like the Foundry, Grim Pantry, and even the Disturbed Ward as examples is because of the giant structure accompanied by the pallets set up in and around them.
So IMO, the big structures that can afford to lose a window could get this treatment.
I mean no disrespect, but I have a hard time following exactly what you are saying.
I specifically stated in the OP that I left the idea very open to see if anyone else wanted to add and give their own input. That's why I said that my visual was just an "example" of what could be implemented. So far you have yet to provide an example of a better idea or maybe you just don't think these windows are that problematic. Which is fine, you are entitled to that.
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The thing is, no one is going to abuse non-god windows. If they get destroyed it's not really that big of a deal, especially if they repair themselves after a set time. Like if you somehow use a LT window too much and it gets destroyed you just move to another loop. It's not a big deal.
Like we would need an entire system of identiying god windows that is fair and consistent. Because not all windows at main structures are god windows. It just doesn't make sense for these specific windows to be affected.
And as I said, it creates a problem when new maps come out as we might not discover how strong a window is until after playing with it.
It just makes sense to have a universal mechanic. It would only really mainly affect the god windows that get abused, but it will still work on other windows if you try to abuse them too somehow.
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I understand no one really abuses non-god windows, that's why my main focus was on god windows. By allowing them to come back over time, it sort of defeats the purpose of what I suggested because you aren't completely getting rid of it.
You're right though, the old maps are the ones suffering from the god windows "problem". Which is another reason I suggested this idea, so the devs aren't just creating maps with super unsafe loops (Hawkings), and actually feel like they can create strong loops without the fact that they can be used indefinitely being a hindering problem for the killer.
I definitely think there is something interesting about your suggestion from an atmospheric standpoint. Because it makes the structures feel old and like they can crumble at any point...which is kind of scary. lol
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Make it so strong windows are obviously crumbling, right of the bat (large cracks that get bigger as the window is used). Then after its vaulted at least 3 times (by anyone), it crumbles apart after a 5 second period (so killers can't just hold forward at the window when it breaks, and instantly catch up). After 3 minutes, the window is automatically repaired, like sabotaged hooks and bear traps. Your idea is honestly great. @Peanits or somebody else should forward this to the dev team and see what they think.
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Well that's my point. How do we define a god window? Like I mention, some windows only become god windows if they spawn next to specific tiles in specific orientations. Any system we come up with is going to be highly subjective, and there will be some windows that are "borderline" where it's like "do we apply this mechanic here or not?"
It's just way way easier to have a universal mechanic. No need to identify god windows in every possible permutation of tile arrangements. No need to have a strange mechanic that inconsistently applies here and not there. It's just how windows work, period.
Having them come back is necessary though, because if they didn't some areas would just be complete dead zones. Again the goal should be to prevent abuse of the windows. If it gets run at the start and end of the game, a total of like 8 vaults, that's honestly entirely acceptable. These windows only become a problem when they are used repeatedly throughout the game as a safe zone for survivors. We don't want safe zones, but we also want to avoid dead zones. Having them repair after a certain amount of time is fine because you are still putting a limit on how much safety these windows provide.
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Or the devs could just take the time to make simple minor map edits to make them not god loops.
They'd be pretty quick fixes.
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Question: What if a survivor decides to grief the game by destroying the window completely? The idea is solid but perhaps you can add a new rule that the survivor must be in a chase for the window to crumble?
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With how many maps and variations now you should prepare a decent scheme in no time if you call it "quick"
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I agree that it could have a condition like being in a chase.
Realistically if that player just wants to “troll” they could do it by just throwing down every pallet on the map. I think being in a chase is a fair condition to somewhat prevent griefing.
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Common sence squad here: Yes, people will grief others. So only in chase and fast vault. And if window breaks, all survivors get special noise notification.
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This is a very good idea, also could potentially raise more perk ideas. They should add this to the game.
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It sounds great at first but then you gotta remember this is bhvr we talking about. They'll just break 100 things.
Another thing is this just sounds like doing extra. The devs could just fix windows the same way they normally do. Blocking windows, opening them up as a normal walk way, adding openings near windows, forcing slow and medium vaults on one side and making fast vaults difficult.
Your method is cool on paper but it just overcomplicates things and is really just a bandaid fix. Reminds me a lot of bloodlust and look how people think of it now. It is only there because of mini infinites and it breaks some loops because of how braindead it is.
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Love the idea!
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Do we not already have "safe zones" that turn into "dead zones" in the game already? Destroyed pallets, by nature, turn most tiles that were previously "safe" into dead zones. Why would this be any different from the window crumbling to dust. Windows simply become another resource to be used as the trial proceeds.
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I understand your concern, but for me doing a band-aid fix is exactly what you just said entirely blocking windows. I've already seen it happen and it makes gameplay less exciting and dull because as survivor you aren't left wondering "what is my next move", instead it becomes "Well this is where I go down because there is no way out"
The problem with god windows isn't the fact that they exist it's the fact that they are "infinites", meaning there is no end to them. By allowing the window to break it gives both the killer and the survivor an opportunity to not get punished for the window simply existing on the map. The survivor can choose to use it but be cautious about going through it again because they are depleting it more and more. The killer can rest assured that if it was 'abused' the first time it won't happen again or for a very long time, depending on how it would end up working.
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Great idea I loved it would be very fair to killers with these endless loops.
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Wow, that is a very, very creative idea.
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What I was thinking was perhaps it could have a respawn timer at 3 minutes like hooks that are sabotaged.
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This is a 2 year old post but I actually really like it. I do think killers should have to wait until the bricks stop moving before they can walk through it tho. Either that or a rushed vault is automatically a fast vault on the last one. These would be cool but maybe only 1 or 2 on each map that needs it.
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You realize that this is why they added breakable walls and this issue is more or less solved
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Actually I didn't know when breakable walls were added, I only started playing this year. I can kind of see that in some cases but I still like this concept, even if the current game doesn't necessitate it. I just stumbled upon this and thought it was cool.
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Thanks! I think this game needs more killer vs survivor interaction by using the maps/environment.
I had made this suggestion as you said a while back with that theme in mind (Before Breakable Doors were introduced). I do not believe breakable doors accomplished that because at times for the killer it feels like a chore, or more like why would anyone ever break this? For survivor, survivors do not interact with breakable doors so for them the only part they worry about is when the killer doesn't break a door and they are in trouble as a result.
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