Devs: you need to address the real reason people use Ruin
You have to realize why so many people actually use it. You say it's because of the emblem - no, that's just not correct, and I do not believe that that is what you guys actually think. It's gens. It always has been. They are simply too fast. By the time you get to a gen on a bigger map, it's done - no skill involved, you cannot do a thing about it. They just pop way too fast in the early game, there's nothing you can do - you can't pressure gens if you can't even get to them in time to pressure them. The solution to that? Ruin. You don't nerf a fix to a problem without fixing the problem itself.
You have to sit back, and look at why it's actually used - and fix why it's used, before removing the bandaid. If you get rid of that bandaid before the antiseptic has done it's job, you'll get an infection - and that is what is happening right now. You need to address the gen speed, and then rework Ruin accordingly.
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Then explain how killer mains like Otz do well without Ruin?
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They are just pros?
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You can't expect every killer to be at the level of Otz.
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Literally nobody cares about their meaningless emblem system. I'm not sure how this disconnect is occurring. Do they seriously not understand how fast generators can go? Marth88's team record was about 2 minutes and 50 seconds, and no significant gen speed changes were made after this. I'm not sure if they're being willfully ignorant, or genuinely can't see the glaring issues with their core gameplay. Ruin was a bandaid fix for gen speeds, and with it gone there is nothing to stop gens from being done early which limits snowball potential and discourages the killer to "play nice."
And the fact that they're pandering to newer players hurts my brain. Especially after the rank reset changes are funneling everyone to red ranks. No matter how much they try to make the game easier for new players, many will still leave in droves for one reason or another. Meanwhile they're actively driving away the older players. I agree that Ruin needed to be changed, but doing it now while so many long standing map issues haven't been addressed at all is mind boggling to me.
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Because he runs builds most other people don't, people aren't always looking out for Nemesis PWYF Bubba or blood echo/All ears Legion and catches people off guard. Too bad he only posts highlights and usually stays away from games where he fails (which he does a fair amount btw)
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On many maps, in the time it takes a 115% Killer to reach the most distant generator, the survivors can finish it long before the Killer arrives, especially if they have Prove Thyself.
Expect Corrupt Intervention to be a meta perk now.
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Naturally. But if that's the case, those who can't play at a high level will derank to a place where they're more comfortable. That is the point of a ranking system, after all.
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I play almost all the time without ruin and still kill them all.
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It's not a matter of doing well or doing bad, though - that's my point. I watch Otz regularly, he's one who got me into the game in the first place. There are so many games he has, where the gens just go too fast for him; and what does he do against this? Sometimes, he can't do a damn thing. Other times, he has to slug, which isn't fun for anyone. He does well at times, but that does not mean he doesn't deal with this crippling problem.
Just because he's good at the game doesn't mean he is invulnerable to this core problem in design - he experiences it all the time. Otz, Ardetha, tru3, Scott, int3r4ct... everyone who plays this game who is good at it, still deals with this problem of being unable to get to gens in time.
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You could be getting carried ranked teams/solos over others who could be getting full swf nonsense.
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This would work if your matchmaking system wasn't so bad. As a rank 1 solo survivor I routinely get games with all rank 1-2 survivors against a rank 12 killer. Is he playing against people and feeling comfortable @Peanits
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There’s a really nice killer called Scorpionz - pig main... About a year ago I was SWF’ing... got into his game as a 4-man and we all had like 2k-4k hours (i think scorp had like 4k hours or more at this point)... pretty much 4 man escape... same would happen to Otz at no fault of his own. When you have near same hour survivors vs same hour killer there’s a mega-imbalance. I only solo since as a band-aid but it would be nice to actually play this game with people from time to time again.
Most survivors at high ranks don’t have high hours.
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Right. But it still is an undeniable fact he does extremely well without Ruin. Not all games are gonna be perfect, and they sure know it.
What I'm getting at is that you can still do well without it and you can still fail really bad with it.
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Except your ranking system right now is all over the place. I'm getting all colors in my matches, be it survivor or killer. So your point is moot at the moment.
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Without ruin if you get a organised team using the big four cheese perks you can forget about gatekeeper emblem and any bp attributed with that. I have had it where the match started I go looking for people at the gens to have two gens pop the furthest away from me and I'm not playing as hillbilly so I can't do anything leading to very short games where nobody gets bp.
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In fact, even Otz have problems without ruins, but most of the time, in particular these months with the archives, survs make many mistakes: I can easily win with the weakest killer, perkless and addonless, but if survivors decide to escape, even with the best killer, full equipped with mori, I can't do nothing ... at best 1k ... nothing more.
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I like how the one dev who shows up to comment compeltely ignores the post itself to respond to a random comment about deranking. Bloody brilliant, man.
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I think he means they will naturally derank to people of their skill level, but like I said with matchmaking pitting rank 1 against rank 20 (watch their very own fog whispers to see examples) it doesn't matter.
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Not like that matters they're still gonna be fighting the same people because the matchmaker is such a mess. I mean come on we all know rank 9's shouldn't be fighting rank 1's but that's what happens at the moment. Here's the problem, you have a mess of a game at the moment with sound and matchmaking being complete trash and then you decide to nerf something most killers ran with (evidently the same people most effected by the current state of the game). You didn't ask yourself why did 80% of red rank killers ran the perk you asked how does it feel for rank 15 survivors to play against it.
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Every change is done for a reason to help with balancing with fun also in mind.
Do you think changes done to Vaults, Pallets, Insta heals, exhaustion, self care, MoM etc etc were all done for the survivors benefit?
In theory Namnow people should naturally start to find they play more in a bracket they should be at.
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Not that we would be able to tell if someone deranks to a more comfortable place, given that BHVR is removing ranks from the tally screen and the matchmaking is still broken. Or is that considered the 'fix' to the matchmaking issues?
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Except the devs themselves say they are using the current nerfs for the 'fun and frustration' of the survivor, not balance.
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Because he plays against potatoes :^)
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I don't want to be that guy, but ranks haven't been removed from the tally screen. You'd have known that if you gave it a try first.
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I said BHVR 'is removing' or are you confirming that is actually not going to happen?
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the problem is you need to be way more stronger than your opponent to get your first hook very fast if you want to play without ruin .
even if you spend 30sec to find people (you need to walk to the other side of map first)and 30SEC
for chase(12.5sec/1hit and 5 sec to hook)it would still pop more than 2 gens (3*60 working time =180SECs and 80sec/1gens without great check and tool box and perk) when you get your first hook if you not use ruin.
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You don't see those other changes which made them all weaker than they were as nerfs? Doesn't that mean the killer ones would also be just changes then?
True bias only comes from seeing one side and not acknowledging changes to the other.
So what were those survivors nerfs done for? Balance and fun always go hand in hand.
It wasn't fun for killers to face certain things ergo they nerfed them.
The devs have always used fun and balance when talking about the game. The issue is alot of the community only sees what happens to the side they play and ignore the others made.
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Otz slugs every game he plays, most killers try and play as fair as possible thus we use ruin so we're able to get multiple hooks but without ruin you're forced to play a certain way, slug, cut hook states short or bleed out survivors to apply pressure.
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And the fact that Ruin was used to slow the gen rush is 'balanced?' I understand that Ruin could be annoying to new players, I remember my first few matches against it. But you learn and adapt.
That's not saying us killers won't do the same with the change, but Ruin was the end result of a bigger problem, not the other way around. All this change is going to do is increase match speeds. If gen rushing was an issue before, we're going into hyperdrive with this.
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Peanits, it seems like you're ignoring the primary complaint here: You're not addressing why 80% of red-ranked Killers used Ruin. I seriously doubt it was because of the Gatekeeper emblem. I think it had much more to do with the fact that gens are finished too quickly in the early game.
Survivors can knock out a generator long before the Killer can physically reach them, and the game can be finished in as little as 3 minutes if the survivors know what they're doing.
Most Killers feel like Ruin is largely mandatory if they want to "play nice" and avoid slugging, camping or tunneling. Otherwise, they simply don't have enough time to get 12 hooks before the game is over. The new Ruin does nothing to address the crucial early game.
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Could you answer to what benefit?
Your broken matchmaking matched yellow ranked killers with r1 survivors during the bloodhunt, since you are so concerned about new players, do you need me to link you to the threads where people posted screenshots of that while expressing how frustrating that is?
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That depends on the player. Many good players don't ever use ruin.
If they don't rely on it and stay at red ranks what does that say about those that do?
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They don't wanna have to slug everyone, camp them or tunnel? Survivors complain about all of those things on a regular basis, and players like Otz do them on a regular basis.
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Can you explain why i constantly play vs red rank surivovrs as a rank 12 killer then? Because to me it seems deranking does nothing, since you play against the highly skilled players no matter your own rank. The point is, your ranking system doesnt work very well.
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So survivor need to play as high level as OTZ in the same rank of Otz?
don't lie yourself.
gens just go too fast.
killer need to be way more stronger than survivor to stay in the same rank without ruin.
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That isn't how it works though. Like...at all. A rank 8 killer goes against rank 2 red rank SWF groups at least half the time or more because of player volumes. Those are the same groups that Otz and Tru3 go against a lot of the time, so unless they suffer through like match after match after match, loss loss loss loss loss and be a punching back all the way back down to like rank 10....
Yeah they haven't, though glass splinters haven't been removed either for people who have those killers already, wish that part would have been real =(
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This is so ######### true. Same with Trutalent I dont watch either stream. But I saw that otz never posts about losing or getting genrushed. Only when he dominated.
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Players will alwqys do that regardless.
If the history of the game has taught us anything is that no matter what changes are made people will always use what they can if they wish too.
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I think the point of the ranking system first and foremost is for it to work properly, as intended, instead of having a wide variety of rankings be clumped together. It's kind of hard to get an accurate gauge on that skill gap if your matchmaking system is CONSTANTLY putting people made up of all different skill ranges together in one game, no?
So, If that is true, how can you HONESTLY make a statement as such?
This sounds like someone who isn't really wanting to listen to the community, instead, you are almost in a defensive stance, like someone who is proud of their work and doesn't want to be told anything different. Which is fine, It's just not productive in the grand scheme of things, the point I think for everyone is to consistently bring forth a better and better game as time goes on.
The problem is, you can go backwards if you're not careful as well, If you refuse to listen to the overall community. That's when people start to lose interest and move on, especially If the majority are not being heard.
Not only are you using a flawed ranking system as a basis for your argument, you are also expecting killer players to basically "get good" or derank, while you are LITERALLY removing great skill checks simply because It's too hard for newer survivors. Assuredly you and the rest of the devs can see the irony in that, no? That's just ONE example of many towards the ways in which you are catering to the survivor experience, while constantly taking away from the killer experience.
I don't like ruin. I think It's a terrible perk overall, however, I get why It is ran. It certainly isn't because of the emblem system.
I love you guys are looking for change, I just don't think you guys are heading in the right direction with a lot of these things and the timing of It isn't great either.
Thanks for all the hard work. I hope this comes off as constructive and engaging, I certainly am not looking to waste your time reading all of this, if you do. Thanks.
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The diffrence being experienced survivors usually have the tools to deal with camping/tunneling. Newbies do not, they are the ones that BHVR cares about. Look it up, check steam reviews, check metacritic that is the reason why new players do not stick with the game (alongside bugs that take forever to be fixed, poor optimization and dlc/paywalls).
You know even when they do rank down all the way to rank 14. They are not excluded from being matched with red rank survivors teams due to the lack of killers (i assume it is due to a lack of killers). So what good does deranking do them? xD
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The diffrence being experienced survivors usually have the tools to deal with camping/tunneling. Newbies do not, they are the ones that BHVR cares about. Look it up, check steam reviews, check metacritic that is the reason why new players do not stick with the game (alongside bugs that take forever to be fixed, poor optimization and dlc/paywalls).
You know even when they do rank down all the way to rank 14. They are not excluded from being matched with red rank survivors teams due to the lack of killers (i assume it is due to a lack of killers). So what good does deranking do them? xD
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Because he slugs other survivors, most other killers don't want to be that guy and rather just get as many hooks as possible. Ruin helped for those types of killers.
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otz and the rest of them mostly get matched with bad survivors /solo survivors not coordinating and farming and are lucky for that. sometimes when he finally gets matched with actually good survivors he gets demolished with practically no chance of winning just like the rest of the streamers
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I'm not a pro killer and I do very well without ruin. Ruin actually makes the survivors look for totems, and then all your totems including your noed is now gone. Dont use ruin and get gud. I knew killers relied on ruin alot, but wow, I didnt know that's all they had going for them. Pathetic potato killers. Same ones that camp.
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So they derank down to a rank in which they need to be, as you said... and still not only face gen rushing, but also broken matchmaking, still finding themselves playing against reds and purples. OK.
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So you use noed and tell people not to rely on ruin.
Ok
You know there is a reason why ruin is used and noed isn't.
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I don't wanna be that guy, but you totally ignored a rank 15 killer being matched against four red rank survivors. Accident or intentional @Peanits ???
If you don't believe me watch some of your Fog Whisperers' streams like Tofu or Puppers to start.
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Yeah, it still does it but to be fair it isn't too common. When you hit rank 8 it's like EVERY game just about.
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Wouldn't this also apply to let's say, low rank survivors who haven't mastered great skill checks yet. Stay down in the new player ranks until they learn basic skills like SKILLchecks which ruin actually helps with.
Can't balance a game based on people who make a living ya know, playing the game. Most players are doing it for fun in their free time and will never be at the same level as major streamers/content creators. If that's the base for high rank, then why on earth do I get potatoes for rank 1 survivor teammates while killers are expected to be on a whole other level 🤔
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i never mentioned camping or tunneling but even so if it didnt work then it would never happen at red ranks but it does. The fact is all the strats including slugging have always been used. nothing has stopped players who wish to using them. So as I said history has shown there is not one indication that most ever will if something changed.
Never look at reviews without being objective as most you read will show people just unhappy at the game when changes like this happen. They make a review and never update it or change it and review bomb when needed. Its happened with both survivor and killer changes in the past and I dont see that ever changing.
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