Keys, Moris,you know the drill
I know what you are thinking "another forum that complains about keys and moris great" but,well maybe true,but I'm trying to be as fair as possible.
Keys are "escape from prison" cards for dbd. The raw element of the ability to completely escape of a match AND having aura reading abilities makes it completely unbalanced. My suggestion is to keep the reading abilities and make a key add-on that allows you to escape through the hatch with an animation,containing skillchecks. That way,not only you won't find free escapes free that easily,but will make it fair since ultra rares change the game.
Moris,the one raw offering that completely change the game. What you have to do is to hook a survivor in order to Mori them (red/green) completely unbalanced. My opinion,make them able to activate at a certain point of the match,like when there are 2/3 survivors left,in order not to have such early deaths
How about you guys? Do you believe they are unbalanced? Do you agree with my suggestions? If not,what are yours? Let me know down below!!!!
Comments
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Keys - it should only work for the keyholder, and should take 5 seconds to open the hatch with it (both so 3 people can't get a free escape with 1 gen left, and so it can't just be used to run away from a chase).
Mori - just make them more rare. Their function is fine (I say this as a survivor main); the issue is they aren't more rare. If that's even an issue at all. Mori's are fun. I love getting mori'd :)
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I think devs already know keys are messed up. I saw a dev comment on keys saying something like
"it would be nice if we reworked keys and moris even though it would be a very time consuming thing, not saying we are not going to"
so I think they know about it even though they don't wanna speculate I feel like they are gonna rework it atleast this year if not earlier. I think it is somewhat of a relief.
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Keys: Require one full-completed generator and one safe unhook and heal by the user to activate.
Counters: Remember Me: Apply a charging bar when the user activates the key so that it must be loaded before completed opening the hatch by 5/6/7 seconds.
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The big issue with reworking them is, you need to rework them in a way where they aren't useless. Like, everyones idea that mori's should only work when the survivor is on death hook effectively makes them useless. There would be no reason to use that over just a normal sacrifice. Sacrifices give more points.
Keys are a bit easier to rework without destroying their viability.
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I found his comment.
"I don't think we've conclusively said anywhere that we don't want to change keys and mori's. Frankly I'd agree with you from my own experience playing (speaking for myself). More realistically, IF we were to completely rework the two, that would take a significant amount of time, and finding the time to do that is tricky.
(Emphasizing IF because this is not confirmation of anything.)"
said by Peanits
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I think they're both unhealthy and should be reworked.
I also think all "second chance" perks need to be reworked as well though.
NOED, DS, Unbreakable and BT are all unhealthy for the game in their current state.
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NOED is fine where it is. It can be prevented completely by destroying 5 totems. Which is easy to do. It already has a HUGE downside.
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I think the solution to that would be to make moris count as a hook/sacrifice.
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I would say just make them more rare. Even still though, people complain about mori's so much that you would think they happen every game, which is not even remotely the case. It's more like once every 10-20 games, if that. I've had one mori in the last like...over a month. Most killer mains have hoards of mori's that they don't use. They wouldn't have those if they were that common. Same used to go with keys, but since EGC was a thing, keys have shot up in popularity.
People grossly over exaggerate the frequency of mori's, and complain about it in rage because they got mori'd for the first time in 20 games and they're tilted because they weren't good enough to lose the killer in the first place. Believe it or not - mori's are more common in brown/yellow ranks, from killers who aren't as competent. It's the survivors at that level (in skill, not actual in game level, cause ranking up as survivor is piss easy) that are complaining.
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Rarity is not a good balancing tool IMO. It showing up less often does not make it less OP; it just lowers the frequency of seeing something that OP.
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The frequency isn't high anyway. It's exaggerated ridiculously by literally everyone who complains about it.
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My personal way to balance them-
Keys take 6 seconds to open the hatch, and the hatch can only be used by the key-holder.
You must hook each survivor in trial once before Moris become usable.
Nothing crazy, but that would balance them both pretty well.
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Realistically speaking regarding Mori's how do you make them more rare when I can just stockpile them with no urgency to use them. I quite literally have hundreds of them because I never use them and I actively avoid them on my bloodweb because they're so common. Honest opinion but making something appear less on the bloodweb isn't going to solve that problem. imo you'd have to limit how many you can have, how long you can hold mori's or both. If I wanted to I could use one every game for the next event and I'd still probably have some left over.
Bias though is mori should be two hooks on a survivor. Not hook phases because you can camp those out but actual hooks.
Keys should have more things to be used on + have a varying amount of easy puzzles to solve using them.
For example a key should have a puzzle pop up and depending on what you're opening you have either 5 or 10 seconds to quickly solve it. Basically just placing the key notches in the proper slots or something like tha.
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You just proved my point. No urgency to use them. Stock piling. How are mori's so "common" if they are used so sparingly?
HUGE logic hole, there.
If mori's were 2 hooks, you may as well remove them. Besides, the problem isn't the mori's, or the keys. It's people taking the game too seriously to see the fun in something. Being mori'd is awesome. I love it :D
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Neither really bother me. Keys are fun but rarely work and take a lot of effort, plus they’re rare in my webs. Moris are fine too I guess, especially since killers who rely on them won’t be able to rank up since you get like zero points. Both should just be much more rare.
Ive found I get less keys as survivor than Moris as I do killer. I’ve got a ton of Moris.
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Moris are cool but there's nothing special about them when I can just horde and spam them. Also there's nothing scary about games where you're camped just so a killer can mori you. A game with a mori should be more exciting than that. That's why I believe mori should have more requirements. It should be one of those special offerings that changes up the game to be more fun not a chore where no one gets any BP.
Let's say you had a max of 14 ebony mori's you could find in a week (2 a day) and after a couple of days after purchase the mori you purchased expired refunding your BP. After a week (Think Shrine) the mori cap would reset. This would make mori's less spammable and make them feel a bit more special.
You could argue what does this solve and we could say nothing but the ideal situation is this would
- Make Mori feel special
- Reduce unfun games
For context and yes it's all RNG I know but I pretty much find 1-2 Ebony's every 2-3 bloodwebs minimum. Pretty crazy number imo and honestly I'd prefer to just have killer addons instead of mori's on my bloodweb. To clarify I can pretty much make the BP back from my mori in a game and have another one ready for the next game.
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This doesn't address the fact that *mori's aren't used nearly as much as people say*.
The ones who use them are the ones who basically rely on them. They'll never get passed yellow ranks anyway. At red, purple and even green ranks, you'll end up seeing mori's brought to games, and a lot of the time never being used at all.
As I said, people complaining about the mori are outright lying, exaggerating their frequency because they're butthurt that they got mori'd. THAT is the real issue. Not the mori themselves.
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My idea for reworking keys is simple. Purple key only the key holder can escape. Skelton key only two people can escape with it. They'd still be useful. But not OP.
As for Mori's. I've suggested before that the Cypress Mori be reworked to allow you to kill the obsession after one hook. The Ivory Mori would allow you to kill a survivor after you have hooked two different survivors. Lastly the Ebony Mori would allow you to kill all survivors after each survivor has been hooked at least once.
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Never said it wasn't easy to avoid or that it didn't have a huge downside, that has nothing to do with why it's unhealthy.
It rewards you for the survivors being lazy, not for you actually doing anything skillfull.
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I think mori's are good were they are at, but keys need a rework, basicly a get out of jail free card.
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Based on what?
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Borrowed Time is also fine; it can be avoided by leaving the hooked survivor outside your terror radius (or play a champion that can lack a terror radius, such as Myers, Ghostface, Wraith, and Piggy).
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That doesn't work if someone immediately goes for a save seconds after you hook someone.
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Ghostface and Wraith most likely can; Wraith if you have the add-ons. Ghostface would be the only one though able to deny Borrowed Time.
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That only works if you are playing very specific Killers. So saying BT is fine because you can just stay out of range doesn't really ring true overall.
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Fair enough.
Unbreakable can also be considered fine (I have no issue with it; probably one of the meta perks I personally love and don't mind; I play off-meta with perks, both survivor and killer), as it is single-time use (excluding No Mither synergy) and can be countered by not slugging them or leaving them alone for very long.
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My major complaint is mori's ruin the quality of games. In red / purple (2 - 5 is where I hover as survivor) ranks I see about 2 every 10 or so games? However my main issue is some survivors just hide, the killer will camp or hover for the mori and everyone depips or barely gets bp because the game was boring and the killer doesn't do anything. This is obviously a player issue and I'd like to say these are isolated cases but I just want a system where killers actually play the game when a mori is used and survivors don't give up.
A game with Devour Hope for example is super fun. The killer is basically on a huge power curve and everyone knows they need to act quick. There's simple counters to it and the killer knows they can't camp because their mori can be destroyed by others so it's a juggling experience. That's the kind of thing you won't ever experience when an offering is used because there's no risk for the killer. My argument to that whole issue is I want better quality of games which is why I believe two hooks should be required.
Regarding the quantity limit change or reducing how many moris a killer has I could take or leave a change. Mori is common enough to be horded and can easily be spammed but the thing is doing so would be super boring if you did it forever that's why killers don't do this. It's basically at their whim if a mori is used. It's certainly at mine. That being said the whole issue I'll always have is how mori makes everyone play. I could honestly disregard a quantity change no matter how common they are. You can't really do anything about that without changing how you buy them.
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I also think Unbreakable is fine for the reasons you stated, so yeah.
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I didn't say it wasn't. Of course it is.
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Based on reality.
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That is not something you have proven, nor is it something I believe you can actually prove.
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I don't think it's quite that frequent. Maybe with matchmaking in it's current state, most red rank survivors are consistently getting yellow rank killers (which are the ones most likely to use mori's). But red rank killers? Mori's are actually pretty rare. Most of them don't need them, and would rather have the extra BP you get for a sacrifice. A lot of them only break out a mori in special circumstances. A 4 man SWF, 4 flashlights, 4 blendette's etc.
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Feel free to join me at red ranks. Any competent survivor, AND killer will tell you if they are at red ranks, a mori from other red rank killers is uncommon.
Like I said, based on reality. Prove otherwise. Spoiler: You can't.
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Feel free to join me at red ranks. Any competent survivor, AND killer will tell you if they are at red ranks, a mori from other red rank killers is uncommon.
And if a competent Survivor and Killer says otherwise?
Like I said, based on reality. Prove otherwise. Spoiler: You can't.
The burden of proof lies on the person that made the claim.
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As I said, ask a competent survivor how often, at red ranks, they see a Mori from a red rank killer. It's not frequent. They can't both hoard them and use them all the time. That's not how it works.
I don't have to prove it. This is the average experience of a red rank survivor.
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As I said, ask a competent survivor how often, at red ranks, they see a Mori from a red rank killer. It's not frequent. They can't both hoard them and use them all the time. That's not how it works.
Hey, you're the one making the claim. Burden of proof. Show me the Survivors saying this.
I don't have to prove it. This is the average experience of a red rank survivor.
You have not proven that. The point is that it falls on the person making that claim to support it.
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You're trying really hard to create an intellectual corner to stick me in - and it's not working. The burden of proof strawman doesn't work *when it's common knowledge*. You don't get to throw it at me when you've never been to red ranks. Maybe you get mori'd every game in yellow ranks, and I mean, sure, but if you're going to sit here and tell me mori's are common at red ranks when we can all see they aren't, you're literally just trolling at this point.
*dusts off shoulder* Try harder.
Get off my jock, pal. Ask BHVR. I don't owe you anything, and you need to stop acting like I do. I made a claim based on my experience, and my observations watching other rank 1 survivors (don't worry - you'll make it there one day!) stream. Mori's are FAR less common then you would have people believe.
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What strawman? If it's common knowledge, it should be simple to demonstrate it to be true. So demonstrate it to be true.
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Mori's are simply not common among red rank killers. We don't like to use them. Even we consider them unfair. I never said I had the data to prove it, so yes, you continously asking me to prove it is a strawman. I never said I had proof, therefore there is no burden of said proof. I LITERALLY quoted that it was from my experience, and observed experience of other red rank survivors. When you get out of yellow ranks, you'll figure it out too. :)
Again - climb down out of my ass and ask BHVR. They have the statistical data. Troll elsewhere, buddy boy.
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I never said I had the data to prove it, so yes, you continously asking me to prove it is a strawman. I never said I had proof, therefore there is no burden of said proof.
That is not how burden of proof works. Burden of proof means that it is up to the person making a claim to provide proof, not that the person has to demonstrate proof only if they say they have proof. You claimed that reality demonstrates that the claims of moris being too frequent are highly exaggerated. If I ask you to demonstrate that to be true, simply stating "I never said that I have proof" does not mean that it falls on someone else to disprove the claim. It simply means you simply aren't showing that the claim you are making is demonstrably true.
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Except - I specified that the claim is based off my own experience, and other rank 1 survivors that I watch in streams. Therefore - the burden of proof is invalid. I do not have to prove my own experience. Now please, stop quoting the google dictionary, and try something you can win. <3
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Except - I specified that the claim is based off my own experience, and other rank 1 survivors that I watch in streams.
When I asked you what the claim was based on, you responded that it was based on reality. When I said that is not something you have proven, you told me to prove otherwise. When I brought up burden of proof, you said that you did not have to prove it because that was the "average experience of a red rank survivor." You eventually edited in far later on that this was based on what you have experienced, but as you can see by the stuff I am quoting, that was not something I had seen when making a response. And even from there, you did not say "I myself have found moris to not be too common in my experience." You once again reiterated: "Mori's are simply not common among red rank killers."
If my experiences viewing other red ranks led me to believe that moris are too common, your view does not trump mine. It simply means that our own observations have led us to different beliefs, and neither of our claims is necessarily more or less valid than the other. It would fall on some other more definitively demonstrable factor to show how things actually play out.
Mind you, I have never once claimed that you were wrong. I merely stated that your belief is not a fact that has necessarily been demonstrated to be true. If indeed you are basing this purely on your own personal, subjective experiences, then my response will simply be to acknowledge it as such. Not wrong, not invalid, but not a definitive fact either.
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Survivor can wait for killer to close the hatch and go away. Your solution is not a real solution. No deal.
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Mori happens 1 out of 10-20 games. "Too common".
OOF.
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I would literally never bother to play solo survivor if keys did not exist. It's fun to run around with flashlights and toolboxes and all that, but at the end of the day, the matchmaking is just trash. I will get literal rank 15's as my teammates to go up against rank 1-2 killers, and you can guess about how well that will go. There's also tons of people who kill themselves on first hook, AFK teammates, etc etc.
It is annoying to die without a chance just because I happened to join the wrong lobby. A key at least gives me hope to survive some of the most BS builds in the game.
Mori's are also significantly more powerful than keys. Even an Ivory is game-ending because you can just tunnel someone off hook at 5 gens if you want, and it's a hatch game instantly.
Whenever they nerf keys, is when I stop playing survivor and move to purely killer.
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you're not really doing any better than him, to be fair. All you're doing is saying "nuh uh" to his "uh huh". You're pretty much just as bad. You should both have a time out.
For what it's worth, I don't see that many mori's at red ranks either. So he does have a point. Even though he's terrible at making said point. They are mostly common with killers who rely on them more, which are, like he said, yellow, brown and to an extent, green rank killers. If they are too common for you, I think that speaks a lot to your rank. He's not exactly wrong when he says red rank killers "hoard" mori offerings. They simply don't feel the need to use them aside from special circumstances. For me that's usually if I know one of the survivors:P
In any case, I play mostly survivor, and I am consistently at rank 1-2 every season. Mori's are extremely uncommon.
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He is saying "uh huh." I am saying "show me." I don't think it is bad to be unconvinced at someone who is actively and arguably deliberately not demonstrating their point.
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I literally said it was based off my experience. You're straight up being unreasonable by asking me to provide statistical data. Red rank killers HOARD mori offerings. They barely use them.
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No, you've pretty much been doing the same thing he has. You're both as bad as one another. You're asking him (or her?) to prove something they never said they had proof of. I would suggest watching someone like ANGRYPUG. Even if you don't like them for whatever reason, he plays almost exclusively survivor and probably has 10000 hours between his two accounts. I watch him every day, and I never see a mori more than once a night - and even then, he either avoids it completely or it's an ivory mori. You'll see the same thing watching any red rank survivor streamer. The data is there, it just seems like you're attempting to take the soap box stance by unreasonably attempting to force them to prove something you can both see yourself, and probably know is true already (unless he's right and you really are a yellow rank survivor).
I mean, you could handle it better. Either way - you're not exactly wrong.
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You edited this into a reply several posts in after claiming that you were basing this on "reality" and "common knowledge." I don't believe it was unreasonable to ask you to provide support to your claim before you edited in that it was based on your experience.
I was asking them to substantiate a claim that they argued was common knowledge. Hardly unreasonable IMO.
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