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Why Don't You (Devs) Just Provide Perk Usage Statistics At Regular Intervals?
You don't need to hide and covet survivor/killer perk usage percentages like you're Gollum obsessing over The One Ring.
The minimal amount of time that it would take to frequently do so would allow for consistent feedback, design ideas for underutilized perks, and promote actual discussion (backed by data) regarding problem areas that people are using perks to 'band-aid.'
Is there an actual reason why this isn't done? Don't you want new and dynamic metas?
It's mind-boggling.
Comments
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They dont like to release statistics because people like to base their full opinion on them. furthermore they do not make changes just on stats, there is always an outside source that effects their choices. Think back to when they released the kill rates late last year, people were and still are making false assumptions via the stats. even though the devs have stated that the stats are flawed and that they count people bleeding to death as well as hook suicide in the killrates.
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Yeah, weekly updated perk usage list would be one of the best things that can happen
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"They dont like to release statistics because people like to base their full opinion on them"
You realise it sounds awful, right?
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you also missed what else i said about basing your opinion on it, when the people releasing the stats and tracking the stats say that the stats are flawed ( they count hook suicides, people bleeding out and people dying from the EGC) then maybe you should not take the stats as the only thing that matters when changing things. If devs based all their changes on only these stats then trapper would be nerfed 100%. fortunately, they do not.
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My snoot!
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You just remind me how cute racoons are ^^
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I see you have found me begging for updates to useless/unused perks T_T
Not my best moment.
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lol but this made me awwww :)
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I'm always amazed by what people say in regards to the devs and game stats. Their flawed, dont read to much in to them, etc etc.
As a business owner for almost 20 years now. I have a saying that I teach to all my young managers....Numbers dont lie. You might not like what they say. But dismissing them or justifying them with excuses doesn't help.
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Why should they not count survivors who bleed out?! That doesn’t make any sense. If a killer 4 man slugs, and let’s all of them bleed out...you consider this a 0 kill game? Of course they should count as kills.
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We need better stats that reflect how people "died" (DC, suicide, mori, ect.) and we need stats divided by ranks and/or the upcoming MMR as well. The stats as is are very misleading because they make no distinction whatsoever on many aspects in the game. Maybe then the stats will mean something, not everything, but something.
Stats on perk usage would only really be useful if we separated them out by ranks/MMR. High, mid, low ect.
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"The minimal amount of time that it would take to frequently do so would allow for consistent feedback, design ideas for underutilized perks, and promote actual discussion (backed by data) regarding problem areas that people are using perks to 'band-aid.'"
This is the idea behind releasing stats, and I absolutely agree with you, and this is why we've tried releasing stats in the past. However, each time it just ends up in a mess. Rather than sparking interesting discussions, they more often or not end up being scrutinized with questions about their validity when the numbers don't match someone's personal experiences. It's an onslaught of, "Does this count? Are you excluding that?", or conclusions being drawn based off of very broad numbers (averages), and it frankly just causes more confusion than it helps.
In a perfect world, I would love to release stats on a regular basis, but it's hard to justify when releasing them only causes more harm than good.
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DCs already don’t count towards the stats. A mori makes no difference as far as kill stats go....however the killer gets that kill should count the same. I mean, if we are going this route then hatch escapes shouldn’t count towards escapes. That would also be silly. Hook suicides there’s no way they could do this. Not all hook suicides are people giving up early in the game. Some are when the game is clearly a lost cause and it’s a waste of time to keep going. There’s also people who suicide out to give the other remaining survivor the hatch opportunity, if the killer doesn’t slug them obviously. These are all legit kills.
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+ if the perk usage stats suddenly showed that say DH was used in 80% of the red ranks and 45% of the game overall, then they'd have to nerf it.
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What do you do when the devs say not to read too much into those numbers?
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Do you have any contact with DbD players who have experience with statistics that you could ask for an opinion on how the stats would be received? If not, do you have any plans or thoughts about doing so?
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I'm not saying they don't count but we shouldn't lump them all together. They should just be separated into different types of kills. Again the stats are not the end all be all but it would be a little better to infer something from. If anything we should be measuring how many hooks a killer got rather than kills as there is a large difference between a 4k 4 hook and a 4k 12 hook game.
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You're literally moving away from ranked gameplay and putting yourselves in a position where you can say with certainty that Perk X is used by Y% of people - There's no reason to not start doing so.
Bear in mind, I'm solely talking about perk loadouts.
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Nothing I can do. I would say that when you hear companies start to justify, rationalize, marginalize, or dismiss their numbers. It normally is followed by the selling of their stock. Or the quick exit of investors. However, we are taking about stats not P&L statements.
From what I can gather. Based on what is being said above. The team is for the releasing of numbers. The team doesn't release numbers often because others scrutinize their validity and it causes confusion because people draw conclusions based off averages. Which turns into a mess.
I haven't been a part of the community for near as long as many here on these forms. So I cant speak of the mess the releasing of stats caused.
I'm a firm believer in numbers dont lie. How can a valid number be scrutinized? Explaining how you arrive at x,y,z is normally a pretty easy process for a company. As far as drawing conclusions from averages. It's a pretty standard practice in a lot of different fields.
At the end of the day. I'm just a killer main who thinks the game still has a lot of potential. Based off of what I have observed. I think the first thing the game needs is better leadership at the very top. Someone who has a clear vision moving forward. A strong communicator who doesnt shy away from his numbers being scrutinized.
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in this game, things like kill rate are utterly irrelevant because of situations like self kill on hook, farming matches, or kills during EGC. How can people say "well he got 4k" to justify gen speed is ok when all the kills came after the gens were done? Literally void of logic.
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I'm not sure I follow you. The kill rate would naturally make up all different types of kills.
Why would we not just look at the average time it took survivors to get gens done 6 months ago versus now? How would 4k after gens even factor in the equation?
I'm sorry if I am misunderstanding what your trying to say.
Post edited by Nickeleye on0 -
You have to expect such reaction if you release stats this rarely. If it was common occurrence, then people would stop caring about it or they would just accept it. You have to give detailed descriptions explaining all the rules (what is included and what is not) and keep it constant over all updates.
So IMO, it wouldnt cause so much outrage if it was released regularly (monthly or weekly, or at least every update)
Maybe you could release only raw data, and leave processing to the players. People who shout the most probably wouldnt be intelligent enough to do it themselves, so it would also reduce unconstructive feedback
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You would have to divide them by region, platform, ranks, and many other variables. Like how much DLC content each account has - if they even have the availability to those perks or how much time they have in the game - if the person even had enough time in the game to get the perks from the Shrine of Secrets, does the users even buy a lot from the Shrine of Secrets of perks that they don't already own.
I really hope the company doesn't just take a blanket statistic of "which perk is used more" and then make balancing changes on that.
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The problem is that stats are flawed or can be manipulated to present your agenda.
Take the kill rates for example. They deleted matchmaking and then release stats that say red rank killers are above 70% kill rate. They then neglet to mention the lack of matchmaking and forget to tell us that these games pitted a 5000 hour red rank killer against a lobby with 3 browns and a purple.
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Ruin vs ds is also easily manipulated.
There is only 1 killer per game but 4 survivors. The stats would count survivors as individuals when displaying decisive usage, but it should count a single survivor using the perk as everyone and count games it is used in.
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Its more like:
If the result is not what people expect, they (the players) make up reasons why the stats are not valid. This happened two times in the past already. One time it was that it was not visible which Rank was used to get those Stats, when the next time the Rank was shown, it was not valid because all Platforms were mixed.
So if they would release Stats and Perks like Dead Hard or DS would not have such a high usage as people think they have (which will most likely be the case), there would be arguing on how the Stats are not valid. Maybe it was not full moon when they were taken. Or the person who gathered those stats did have the wrong color of underwear while collecting the stats. Who knows.
I am happy with BHVR not releasing stats. The people on this forum do not appreciate the work and it will only lead to discussions (where e.g. the Win Rate of every Killer is not relevant, but suddenly it is relevant, when Nurse is brought up) or to false assumptions.
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dont forget they include console/mobile and computer in 1 statistic!
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How has it done more harm than good? Is it really that bad that people ask questions about the stats?
Sure some people will flame and take the stats to justify about everything with it, however when you make a statspage for dbd so people can actually have like always access to them and not just once in a year more interesting discussions would come to fruition sometimes people can make points that you might missed or were not even aware of.
Can you blame the people asking about validity when you release something called "red ranks" which only considers the killer's rank at the start of the match? Give us stats on a regular basis without such misleading descriptions.
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Stats can dynamically queried which probably is done in house. Raw data could be dumped but information is power and we all know SWF always on comms should have been addressed and balanced ages ago.
How would BHVR defend itself for example when SWF players escape more?
I then see people say they play chilled or die saving each other but then that is a choice. If a killer is playing chilled then that is because they have the power role and find it easy and fun, I've heard one killer say this as they were interested in bbq bp
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Ps just had a fellow survivor DC after being grabbed leaving everyone else [insert word].
Afterwards I checked why, through his fully upgraded meta perks he had BT, DH, UB and... there it was Deliverance!
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Devs: *release stats*
Community: "These stats suck and I don't believe them and even if they're like 90% accurate, I'm going to take the 10% flaw and say they're totally invalid."
Devs: *don't release stats*
Community: "Why don't you all release stats more? Yall are just biased and trying to hide things"
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Impossible. There are different types of people who say different things? hOrY #########
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Well, i have to say, many times you yourselves said those statistics were no "valid" if the one giving us stats says they are not to be taken as valid, is a no brainer we question theyr validity...
In my opinion you should give you stats in a more "specific" manner, for example the last one about the killer usage, instead of ALL PLATFORM, were nurse was at 40% and than the kill rate on red rank on pc for nurse... that made no sense, you need to be more specific.
Release separate stats for all platform, like that:
for EACH platform, NOT on alla platforms
-Killer pick up rate
-Each killer killing rate at every rank
-Top 5 perks used at various ranks for killer and survivors
-Top 5 perk combination used at a specific rank for killer and survivors (red rank?)
-Average Escape rate for survivors at every rank
And so on, but everything need to be specific and for esch pèlatform, not generalized, generalization is what lead us to doubt your statistics.
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The devs are the ones who said they were invalid.
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So the unintelligent vocal minority determines the knowledge shared with us all.... fantastic
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Instead of 'full opinion' he should of said 'half baked and just plain bad opinions' - and then it sounds far less awful, but I suspect he was being nice.
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Not revealing stats is another way the devs wish to hide info because we all know it would just reveal more imbalance and flaws with the game.
They also refuse to reveal swf because no killer would play against swf without heavy reward.
Soon they will hide ranks and pretend there is no issue with matchmaking too.
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