Self Care in 16 seconds?
When using the perks self care, botany knowledge, resilience, desperate measures. if my math is correct self care should heal the same speed as normal (16 seconds)
Self Care (50%) Desperate Measures (14%) Resilience (9%) Botany Knowledge (33%)
= 106%
However when I tried this in a custom game when i was the only one injured, it took around 20 seconds instead of 16 seconds which is the normal healing speed. Any reason why?
Comments
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The math in this game works in a really weird.
Self-Care in 16 Seconds is only possible if you get all 4 Survivors injured while using this build.
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20 seconds sounds right if you figure self care is 32 seconds.
14% + 9% + 33% = 56%
32 / (1 + 0.56) = ~20.5
A mistake you're making is treating self care like it's a 50% boost to your healing speed when it's actually doubling your healing time* final edit.
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Speeds modifiers are multiplicative.
Base: 1 charge/sec. 16 charges to finish a heal
1 charge/sec * .5 (Self Care) * 1.09 (Resilience) * 1.14 (1 stack of Desperate Measures) * 1.33 (Botany Knowledge) = 0.826329 charges/sec. 16 / 0.826329 = 19.36 seconds.
Edit: According to others, this is incorrect, though I really wonder why they didn't do it this way.
Post edited by AGM on0 -
I thought it was additive and all modifications are calculated off the base.
In this case the base is 16 seconds.
16 base + 16 (SC) - 1.44 (R) - 5.28 (BK) - 2.24 (DM)
With this I calculate 23.04 seconds to Self Care with this build.
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Just a reminder with one stack of Desparate Measures (1 injured) it's 10% not 14%
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Its 10%/12%/14% based on the Tier it is. We are assuming Tier 3.
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You would be correct if it stated something more along the lines of "reduce/increase the time it takes to heal by x%" but since we're working with speed decrease/increase you need to divide the base amount by the modifiers plus 100% base. I definitely think AGM has the correct answer regarding how it is programmed as I'm not sure where in my equation they place the *0.5 modifier from self care.
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It is 14% per survivor at tier 3
I'm copy and pasting from one of my previous posts from September:
The formula seems to be (HEALING_TIME_AFTER_DEBUFFS / (ADDITIVE_BUFFS + 1)). This means:
Self Care: 32 / 1 = 32 seconds
Self Care + Desperate Measures (2 injured survivors): 32 / 1.28 = 25 seconds
Self Care + Botany Knowledge: 32 / 1.33 = 24 seconds
Self Care + Desperate Measures (4 injured survivors): 32 / 1.56 = 20.5 seconds
Self Care + Botany Knowledge + Desperate Measures (2 injured survivors): 32 / 1.61 = 20 seconds (19.88)
Self Care + Botany Knowledge + Desperate Measures (4 injured survivors): 32 / 1.89 = 17 seconds (16.9)
Self Care + Botany Knowledge + Desperate Measures (4 injured survivors) + Resilience: 32 / 1.98 = 16 seconds (16.16)
So yeah, the perk combo is super good if healing yourself is your goal. You could probably replace resilience with something else though since it only knocks off a little under a second (MASSIVE diminishing returns)
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I do not know for sure but I am relating it to Hillbilly. His base is 2.5 seconds for chainsaw charge. Mothers Helpers reduces charge by 12%, which maths to 0.3 second reduction leaving the charge time at 2.2 seconds. Engravings work in the opposite way, adding 12% making it 2.8 seconds.
Is the language between Hillbilly charge time different from the healing speed?
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@Exerlin I'm glad you did the maths not me! :)
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Entirely depends on how it's coded. They can do it one way for some things and then have it another way for others. I can't say for certain which method they used without seeing the code.
Judging from the way that is worded it should knock off 12% of the total time additively which would be, as you said, (2.5 * 0.12) = 0.3 and then add or subtract that from the base value. The difference being it implies that it affects the total time and not the speed at which is activates.
I've been out of college for like a year now and I feel that all my math skills/knowledge just evaporated lol. I expect it to get worse as time goes on.
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I think you and I have the right thinking here. Going back to Hillbilly, 2.5 seconds * 1.12 = 2.8 and * .88 = 2.2. The problem with our calculations is Self Care doubling the base.
I think the calculations (Botany, Resilience, Desperate Measures) are all based on the 16 second base. And Self Care adds 16 seconds and does not adjust the calculations of the other perks. But I do not know for sure.
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Some facts:
- 16 charges are required for a full heal.
- The base interaction speed is 1 charge per second.
- To know the interaction time, you divide the number of charges by the speed at which the interaction is performed.
- Debuffs (as is the case with Self-Care) are multiplicative (so two debuffs for the same thing result in a combined debuff that is the product of one by the other). For example, if you're suffering a 25% penalty on top of a 33% penalty, your interaction speed is (1-0.25)*(1-0.33)=0.5025 (50.25%)
- Buffs are additive (so two buffs for the same thing result in a combined buff that is the sum of one by the other). For example, if you're suffering a 12% boost on top of a 9% boost, your interaction speed is 1+0.12+0.09 = 1.21 (121%)
- If you're under the effect of buffs and debuffs, you calculate them separately and then multiply the result. With the two previous examples, that would add up to 0.608 (about 61%)
Under your example, the interaction speed is:
(1-0.5)*(1+0.14+0.09+0.33) = 0.78 (78%)
And thus the time is:
16/0.78 = 20.51 seconds (approximately)
Post edited by Orion on1 -
I think the math works like this, using your examples:
Self Care: 16 x 2 = 32 seconds
Self Care + Desperate Measures (two injures): 16 x 1.72 = 27.5 seconds
Self Care + Botany Knowledge: 16 x 1.67 = 26.7 seconds
Self Care + Desperate Measures (four injures): 16 x 1.44 = 23 seconds
Self Care + Botany Knowledge + Desperate Measures (two injures): 16 x 1.39 = 22.2 seconds
Self Care + Botany Knowledge + Desperate Measures (four injures): 16 x 1.11 = 17.75 seconds
Self Care + Botany Knowledge + Desperate Measures (four injures) + Resilience: 16 x 1.02 = 16.3 seconds
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Debuffs (as is the case with Self-Care) are multiplicative (so two debuffs for the same thing result in a combined debuff that is the product of one by the other). For example, if you're suffering a 25% penalty on top of a 33% penalty, your interaction speed is 1-0.25*0.33=0.9175 (91.75%)
This isn't right, unfortunately. By this math, you'd actually perform actions faster if you had more debuffs. if you had a 25% debuff and a 33% debuff it'd work like this:
[Base Action Time]/(1-(.25 + .33)) = [Base Action Time]/.42 = 2.38*[Base Action Time]
So, if you were trying to calculate this for a 16 second heal, for example, this would become a 38 second heal.
The one big exception to this is that status effects, like Mangled, are calculated after any buffs from perks. Let's say you're trying to calculate the time to heal via Self Care while mangled.
You'd first calculate the affect of the perk:
16/(1-.50) = 32 seconds
And then you'd apply Mangled via the same formula:
32/(1-.2) = 40 seconds
[This] is a good video explaining it.
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I think the calculations are multiplied by, not divided by. Whatever affect is based on adding/subtracting by the base of 1, per my prior message.
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It's weird how Safe Care is so bad that even a build around it is not enough to go against a brown medkit.
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I said they were multiplicative and gave an example on how to calculate it. You wrote a sum.
What I said is 100% correct. I've opened two threads on the subject so far, with replies from devs confirming what I've said.
EDIT: There was indeed an error, I'm fixing it now.
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Your other posts may well be correct, but look at the specific quote I commented on - that is not true. For example, let's say we added another 30% debuff onto the 25% and 33% that are already in effect. By your math that would be: 1-.30 * .25 * .33 = 1-.025 = 97.5% interaction speed. You would actually be increasing your interaction speed by adding an additional debuff versus the 91.75% in your post.
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I already edited both comments. I've no idea what I was thinking with the way I multiplied those values. They are indeed multiplicative, but it's (1-debuff1)*(1-debuff2)
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Well, multiplication and division are the same thing at the end of the day! It does look like we're doing things just a tad differently, though. My source of truth is [int3r4ct's video] - I'm doing calculations in the same way he is.
For example, to redo the Self Care + Botany Knowledge + Desperate Measures (four injures) + Resilience calculation:
Debuffs first:
16/(1-.50) = 32 seconds
Then buffs:
32/(1+(.33+(.14*4)+.09) = 32/1.98 = 16.2 seconds
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Gotcha, now I'm on board!
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Just for the record, there is no practical difference between doing the calculations with debuffs first and then buffs, or vice-versa, or both at the same time, assuming you do it right. 1/(2*3) is 1/6 whether you divide by 2 or 3 first, or if you just do the multiplication and then divide 1 by that.
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Yeah, I could pack it all into one expression, but this simplifies things. You can't do something like 1/(1+(-.5+.33+.56+.09)) or you'll get the wrong result.
Also, as I'm taking a look closer at your post again, can you link me to the dev reply on your post? I'm wondering if int3r4ct's video and the general [Base Action Speed]/(1+modifier) formula isn't correct. For example, if I use the method from your post to do the Self Care + Botany Knowledge + Desperate Measures (four injures) + Resilience calculation I'd get a slightly different result than the 16.2 seconds I get with int3r4ct's method:
16*(1-0.5)*(1+0.56+0.09+0.33) = 15.8 seconds
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You're multiplying the number of charges required by the interaction speed instead of dividing the former by the latter. This is why I calculated the interaction speed first and then divided the number of charges by the interaction speed. If you calculate the buffs and debuffs first, then the total interaction speed, and then apply it to the number of charges, it'll be much easier.
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Ah, my mistake, I misread it! It should be:
16/((1-0.5)*(1+0.56+0.09+0.33)) = 16.2
This lines up perfectly.
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Would it help if I put this in the form of a mathematical equation in a PDF file?
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I'll leave it to others to comment - could be useful! - but I understand it myself now! You and int3r4ct actually have the same exact formula - I had just copied yours over wrong when I thought there was a discrepancy.
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You and int3r4ct actually have the same exact formula
As we should, because that is the correct way to calculate interaction speeds.
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Yes 😊
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Just a note on the term "debuff". It is basically "reducing" not just debuff. Because reduction can be a buff. Like pig dash charge addons reduce the charge time, but they are also multiplied, not added.
But yes, at OP: if you want a 16 second Selfcare, you would need a 100% speed boost in total, to compensate the 50% speed loss from Selfcare. Which would be almost achieved with Botany + Resilience + 4 stacks of Desperate Measures
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That's a very good point, thank you.
PS: If anyone wants this in a mathematical expression, I can do that in a few minutes, just leave a comment on my profile.
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I've been playing Claudette and as I like to play the survivors with a select role like killers, I've been using self-care for the first time in years. I think the perk alone is still quite terrible but with Botany Knowledge and a brown medkit or so you can heal like there's no tomorrow. An 83% heal isn't perfect but thats only about 1.5 seconds more than the base heal. Sloppy butcher obviously counters this a little but you outright counter Sloppy in turn with Botany on other players.
I tried desperate measures for a while but its just too inconsistent. Faster unhooks are nice, but the healing item efficiancy combined with the flat 33% speed boost just makes Botany outright superior.
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83% takes about 3 seconds more than base, not 1.5.
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I can apply a band-aid in real life in about 6 seconds.
We need another healing perk to let us go EVEN FASTER.
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Yeah Resilience makes such a minuscule difference together with BK, SC, and DM. I’d rather have Leader in case someone attempts to heal me or me and a teammate are healing someone else.
Running a med kit with BK, SC, and DM leads to some great super fast self heals, with an extension of how much use is gotten out of the med kit.
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I failed math... a few times.
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