Smartface Bubba doesnt need to be removed
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What do you mean? According to the internet, Myers is a homophobe because he killed a gay couple in Halloween Kills. Don’t you know this is the logic nowadays? Despite Michael not giving a flying hoot about sexual orientation, race or gender.
Welcome to the generation of the offended.
Enjoy your stay.
Also, as a black female in rl I can tell you I & alot of others don’t care that Bubba wears Claudette’s face. However, if you go out of your way to target a streamer that is of color wearing Claudette’s face or even Jake’s and think its okay to troll or camp them because they are of color, that is a problem beyond a cosmetic.
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Sorry for closing this temporarily, I needed to catch up with all the comments.
I want to thank everyone who civilly participated to this conversation, I think it's very important to discuss issues like this in a respectful manner and most of you did, bringing up interesting points of view on the situation.
Please try to keep it constructive and civil, trying to understand why this specific topic is so important to many.
Thank you.
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I don’t see how this is an issue tbh.
Bad people exist and will continue to do so, and no matter how offended you are, or how much you censor or attempt to re-educate, it’s not going to change.
Now, I get the whole “don’t give them the tools they need to be bad” angle, but it doesn’t hold any water imho.
For the sake of argument I’m going to pull some numbers from the crack of dawn, but they’re still in the ballpark.
Out of let’s say tens of thousands, there may be a handful of people who use this cosmetic with racist intentions.
Of those handful, a smaller number make it known to the intended victim what they are actually doing.
So we have a fraction of a handful of people, offending a fraction of a handful of people, in a computer game.
Are we really going to ruin the fun of potentially millions of people over that?
You can’t just go around censoring everything that makes you feel bad. That’s no good for you nor society.
Let’s say the cosmetic is removed. Potentially millions of people are screwed out of it, and the minuscule number of racists will continue to be themselves, finding more ways of being racist in DBD, be it in end-game chat, private messages, tunnelling + camping, etc.
What happens then to the people being offended? They continue to be offended.
No. Removing the cosmetic is not the answer. So, what is?
Change how you respond to it. That’s the only thing that will ever actually help you.
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As a black man, if they remove it, they're telling me "Oh, Bubba only wears white faces, not black faces" which is way more offensive. It's infantilizing black people and treating us like we're children who need to be coddled by companies. That's racist
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almost no one asks for straight out removal of the cosmetic but to change it to be less offensive. Along with the other face masks as well.
and one thing to mention is, the biggest problem with the cosmetic is not the face mask but the fact that Bubba has actually darker skin underneath the Smart face mask.
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What tool? How does the mask help racists be racist? Theyre still gonna spam slurs and tunnel people
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Then we can edit the skin underneath, I'm fine with that. I'm not fine with people here speaking on behalf of us and telling us what is and isn't offensive tho
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The tunneling doesn't have to be for racial issues, however when it's been done exclusively to Black survivors while wearing the cosmetic then it's a lot more... Obvious what the reasoning behind it is.
And as for slurs? They're bannable. The issue comes from when they're being racist without saying slurs.
@topic
Last I checked both of these women weren't white and were advocating for its removal- took me around 20 second to find.
As well as this article written under the advice of Karen and Tani, both of whom are black.
People are complaining about it, and not just white people.
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i can only speak for GoodBoyKaru and he made it very obvious he is directly speaking for his friends who are people of color and he talked to about this.
one of the devs already confirmed they are trying to negotiate with the license holders to change this. And I think it was explicitly about the blackface problem beneath the mask (could be wrong about that though).
one popular proposal is to make the masks not about the skin (and skin color) but to add other features and objects from the original survivors (such as Claudette’s/Dwight’s glasses, Jakes scarf..) since Leatherface actually does this in the movies as well when wearing the skin of his victims
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You may need to backtrack a bit in the video for full context but here's not_Queen talking about it.
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Well, I mean if someone tunnels only black or Asian survivors, them having the mask on doesn’t make it MORE racist or anything
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I think that the skin should be changed but keep the masks and add a survivor-like outfit. Not just glasses, but recreations of the survivors P3 cosmetics.
That seems cool to me imo
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No, it makes it much more obvious what the intent was and subsequently much more uncomfortable for people to sit through. Like it's about removing the tool to help people feel more comfortable in the game idk what's so obscure about that.
And let's face it, who even uses any of the Bubba faces? Outside of having them for the sake of having them, which would also be the case were they to be replaced with items of clothing or other accessories, I don't think I've seen a single Bubba wearing one of those faces outside of facecamping the black/Asian survivors in a trail.
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For me as well. But I guess it’s up to the license holders and BHVR at this point. And BHVR (or better: the devs) has/have shown they are willing to get in contact with the people that are affected by something offensive like this and they are listening.
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I can understand your point, however ALOT of people use the bubba faces, for years he didn’t have any cosmetics and they were his only customization besides prestige and they’re his only free cosmetics to this date.
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I really hope they don't. To me, it tells me "black people are too sensitive to have Bubba wear a black skin mask". It sets a bad precedent that we're babies that need to be coddled
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Oh no, not Twitter Problems ™ again...
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I can't say I've ever seen a Bubba exclusively target any race of character, nor have I ever seen a camping Bubba who didn't just camp anyone.
It sounds more like people see the cosmetic and start looking for problems that aren't there.
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when i see threads like this , 80's miss me i think we should be able to joke of everything .
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There just aren’t any convincing or rational arguments for why the cosmetic should be removed imho.
A minuscule number of people very rarely being offended to whatever degree or feeling uncomfortable isn’t a good enough reason.
People get offended all the time over all manner of things.
Removing the cosmetic will offend more people than the cosmetic offends in the first place.
What makes you more important than these people? The colour of your skin or?
Removing the cosmetic does nothing to stop racists from being racist.
You’re just ruining fun for 99.9% of everyone else for no reason whatsoever.
This whole thing is just nonsensical.
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How is it fun for 99.9% of everyone else to have a literal blackface in the game?
and who asked to outright remove the cosmetic anyway? People are asking for it to get changed to be less offensive.
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When I see posts like this I think people are forgetting how discrimination was and still is a big problem.
Blackface is not just a joke. Inform yourself before making such a statement.
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Regardless of your opinion on the cosmetic, it is very dangerous to assume *everyone* using it, who camps any given survivor has racist motivations. That accusation directed to those risks undermining the whole debate.
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here we go , self victim begin i was born in 80's so i can talk of this .
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What
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That’s your definition. To everyone else it’s just a cosmetic of a character’s face, like all the other ones, because that’s literally all it is. You’re making it into something racist which could be construed as racism in of itself.
See how that works? What do we do about the minorities being offended by you being offended?
Now, obviously I’m not saying you’re being explicitly racist, but singling out minorities and treating them like children, or implying they can’t handle adult themes, or gaslighting them into thinking everyone is racist, can definitely be perceived as racism, and that’s what this is all about when it comes down to it. Perceptions. Perspectives. How do we weight them all? We can’t. You just can’t please everyone.
The fact of the matter is, removing or changing the cosmetic to appease such a small group of people in such a niche situation, is going to negatively impact far more people in the process.
And I do see many people asking for it to be removed whenever this topic is brought up, but asking for it to be changed to “be less offensive” is pretty much the same thing at the end of the day.
What else are we going to change to be less offensive? We should remove camping because a racist person could camp someone. Same for tunnelling. But what about hooking in general? We can’t have racists hooking people. Especially minorities. That would be offensive. Same for slugging. As for chasing, well that’s some pretty dodgy territory, having a known murderer chasing around minorities? Beyond the pale. At this stage we may as well delete the whole game, but then we’d be deleting Claudette, which could be racist too.
In a bit of a pickle here.
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IMO making this an issue actually pushes away actual issues that are actually happening.
As someone who is a minority myself, I'd rather people put their time and effort to actually help minorities in real issues that we actually face instead of being offended over a video game cosmetic, that people might use to do something racist.
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Totally disagree with your comme t that removing it will upset more people than it will satisfy.
Or more accurately this is the problem with this whole debate and issue at large.
If people get genuinely offended or upset, for well known historical and personal reasons... isn't that more valid a reason to listen to, than people who really shouldn't have an issue with the sinple removal of a cosmetic. Simply put, the removal of a cosmetic doesn't really impact you or matter, so if they did, and you kick up a fuss.... ask yourself why
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It’s just that if the offending cosmetic gets removed, all the others face cosmetics should get removed too. Otherwise, it just creates an unnecessary stand-out that makes it seem like “coddling” as someone else in this thread put it.
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I think you trivialise the debate and the historical issue of "blackface" by calling it "coddling". Or at least you fail to understand why this cosmetic may genuinely upset people.
Yes, I get that Bubba wears the faces of all victims, and I am not sure I have a strong opinion one way or the other on this specific cosmetic. But I do think we need to listen to the objections without using "whattaboutery". And I definitely see this thread and debate, as a sad microcosm of the wider societal debate.
We do need to be careful though, in how we perceive those in the game who do wear it, and make unwarranted accusations there either.
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Just @ topic again, especially the people saying that no minorities have issues with it. In addition to tweets linked before, here's five Screenshots from Tanibeax on the subject.
She is the person I've gotten the modtmost information on the topic from. And yes, if you can't tell from her profile picture, she is black.
Stop pretending that it's only white people asking for it to be removed and that only seeing race in it is racism in and of itself. Because there are absolutely black people asking for it's removal, like there are Asian people asking for the removal of Jake's face.
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I literally stated “coddling” was the term used by someone else, who iirc, is a poc. If it wasn’t from who I think it was, then that’s on me.
I am in no way denying the history, or the problems with it. You clearly didn’t read the entire thread. I’m just mentioning the others as the cosmetic itself isn’t the only factor I’m considering here.
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Please don't resort to micro aggressions, or get defensive. When I said "you", I meant the royal you. Apologies if that wasn't clear.
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It just read as you telling me specifically that I was denying the history of blackface, when I’m from a country with an annual event during which the discussion arises. Just rubbed me wrong, is all.
Also, I have no idea what the “royal you” is, so I’m just gonna google that real quick to not derail the topic further.
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That was not my intention. Apologies.
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That’s not ‚my definition‘
Bubbas face underneath the mask is not the same color as it is for the other cosmetics. That is literal blackface.
Are you actually trying to argue that white people with dark/black painted faces is not racist, considering the history of blackface and the mocking of people of color in general (not only ‚blackface‘ but also ‚yellowface‘).
and I am against a singled out removal as well. I have said that several times in this thread now. Change all 4 of the survivor masks to be less offensive and more in line with Bubbas actual character (wearing clothes and such from his victims).
this would also result in these cosmetics having more value overall. Let’s be honest, no one ever would see a difference between original head cosmetic and athlete/leader face since there isn’t much difference…
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Can you form an actual sentence please? I really don’t know what you are trying to say here.
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His skin isn't painted black, he is missing textures on all of them. Could also be badly applied light/shaders.
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I juste sais in 80's WE were able to joke on everything more than now , now everyone take everything as an offend . The World is less free ATM than it was before, respect included
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You can disagree but that doesn’t really discount what I’m saying.
The number of people negatively impacted by the cosmetic are minuscule compared to the number of people using it, therefore the number of people negatively impacted by the removal/change would be larger.
No, I don’t believe the small number of people feeling offended are more valid or have more valid reasons.
Why? Well firstly you can’t dictate to someone what should or shouldn’t be important to them. Plenty of people use that cosmetic. Plenty of them would be upset at it being changed or removed, and nobody is in a position to talk down to them or to tell them their experience or concerns don’t matter, or to imply they are racist as you just did. This is a computer game and it has cosmetics. People like to use them. It is not racist to like a cosmetic. No matter how much you try to race bait, you won’t change this simple reality.
Secondly, just because a minority is offended by something, it doesn’t mean they’re more important than anyone else, regardless of their past experiences.
Sure, it sucks if you’ve had to deal with racism IRL and then you log into a video game and have to deal with it again, I do sympathise with that, however we are talking about a niche situation involving a specific cosmetic that has affected and does affect a genuinely minuscule number of people, and the proposed solution is at the expense of everyone else, not to mention that changing/removing the cosmetic in the first place doesn’t even stop the racists from being racist and therefore offending the people being offended.
Thirdly, forget about offending everyone else because they supposedly don’t matter, but what about offending other minorities? In this thread alone there are many minorities offended by the very suggestion. They feel as though they are being babied, coddled, gaslighted, etc. They feel as though they shouldn’t be treated differently for their ethnicity, and that they’re capable of dealing with trolls in an online video game because they see themselves as grown adults with self respect.
Why do these minorities not matter? Are you being racist for discounting their feelings?
So when it comes down to it, we have a minuscule number of people, offended by a cosmetic in a computer game, removing/changing features at the expense of the vast majority, including many other minorities.
And for what? So that once in a blue moon, in an almost non-existent situation, some random person won’t feel bad over a cosmetic, but will still feel bad when they read racist messages from the person who would have worn the cosmetic.
I just don’t see it.
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So i thought about this a fair bit, the abuse being caused by this cosmetic is pretty apparent to see, and its clearly not acceptable.
I can see a few sides to the argument, removing just Claudette's face singles it out, and sets a worrying presented that minority groups cant have certain things in the game just because it may be used in an offensive way., honestly so would just removing the faces altogether.
I watched this panel recently which i would recc to anyone looking to get a wider perspective on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha_dd6E9Jv4
I think i came to the same general conclusion as the panel, which is that removing it wouldn't be ideal, trolls will find a way to be racist trolls regardless, the best way to deal with this would be tightening up moderation and reporting, BHVR need to start banning people that are recorded trolling in this manner and treating it the same as any hate speech in dbd/steam.
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The feels less like blackface and more like the texture artist forgot that it's a mask and shaded accordingly, since it's the same deal across all of the cosmetics.
More incompetence than anything.
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It is your definition. In reality it is just a face. You make it a “black face.” Are you trying to imply that BHVR are secretly racist and are trying to hide “black face” in their game to subtly offend minorities? If no, then it is just a face.
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Were you able to joke more, or have people just realised that joking about race/sexuality/gender/sex when you're a cishet white man isn't actually all it's cracked up to be?
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It's literally missing/badly applied textures. I work in Environment Design for games and you see it all the time. All the masks have the same thing going on.
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Yes, they should so the cosmetic is working as intended and looks better, not because it's a easter egg to secretly be racist.
Lazily done textures =/= racism.
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it is blackface. Intentionally or not. And no, I actually think they have done in unintentionally and they were just making the face masks without blackface in mind. See the video GoodBoyKaru has posted on the last page I think. They have addressed it. They are human and make mistakes. Doesn’t mean they can’t correct those.
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That’s.. only including very specific people into the ‚WE‘
many people were not free back then and had to hide themselves, let themselves get discriminated or joked about just because they were different.
just because you can’t harass people that are different as easily doesn’t make you less free now.
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For all those people who use the cosmetic. If you are more upset by its removal from as you said "a video game", and you care more about using it than stopping the reinforcement of generations of hurt associated with racial stereotypes and injustice..... I would respectfully suggest that person re evaluate.
And if you think that last part of the paragraph above is "over the top" then that is the exact reason we still need this kind of debate.
There are so many examples in history, of the majority over the minority (imagine telling the native Americans that the slaughter of the population and annexing of their land was fine because "If we didn't it was at the expense of the vast majority". Again, maybe an over the top comparison, but the point is that the majority over the minority argument is kind of sickening.
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