Healing meta killing DBD
Healing meta have been since since medkit rework, but not much people payed attention and mmr wasn't a thing so it wasn't so bad, and also almost every killer release was chase oriented, so the problem went unmentioned, however after releasing boons, and specially, CoH release and mmr being a thing made this problem go skyrocket, everybody running pretty decent medkit now, that's enough to heal at least 2 times with decent speed, while coh is buffing speed while healing with medkit, it also helps after it will run out of charges.
And the recent onryo release another nail in the coffing, or more like, newspaper where tite says that DbD is getting nail in the coffin, playing as sadako "as intended" which means hit and run playstyle absolutley pointless, if hit takes less than ~8 seconds, then it doesn't worth, because time to heal as survivor with medkit and CoH buff takes such a small amount of time, so survivor can heal and get back to the gen he repaired before, small reminder, shift+w meta also applies to this problem. While legion's problem was "why heal if you will be injured anyway", now it's "why don't heal, because it won't waste much time, but even legion will take longer time to hit me than to heal", Oni also suffers from it, I've stopped played him because 1st hit is so important to him, however even after getting that hit, downing some people if there's WGLF and CoH which is really common, you can't snowball, pretty much same applies to twins, you just can't snowball. And if you are pretty experienced player, you know that you just can't beat good players, no matter, if they are solo players or swf, as long as they are not making stupid things aka mistakes, you can't win without snowballing. Also a lot of survivors started to take protection hit which is really powerfull thing.
So I have no idea how to play with such playstyle now, most likely you just can't, even against decent survivors, you can't count on hit and run playstyle. Yeah sometimes there are no medkits and CoH, then it's most likely win but I haven't played game without some of these things in a while.
There is one thing that is able to counter this thing, which is hex ruin, but less and less people are using totems now, because survivors learn about totem spawns because they need those totems for CoH, so hexes are basically useless and even more, they can harm you more because you can try to protect them with hit and run, otherwise it will be broken, which leads to repaired gens, which also leads to gen slowdown perks meta because there is no good perks that can afflict healing aspect of game.
So there is no possible counter, except playing as plague, but since dead hard exists, she is not a threat too. I am exhausted to play as killer, performing really well and then all my pressure begone because of medkits and CoH, not to mention dead hard. I've used to be killer main but every game is very stressfull if im not playing top tier killer, so now I am only doing dailies and archives as killers, and only sometime I am playing full time killer, but this is not comparable to amount of time I play as survivor now.
Conclusion or TL;DR, healing perks (CoH) and medkits are harming killer side, and also survivor side, because killer pool is smaller due to bad condition of hit and run/reliable on injury killers. Expecting survivors to stop running dead hard, coh and medkits is unrealistic and stupid, so we have to wait for some actions from the devs, but I'm not expecting BHVR to accept their mistakes with mmr and coh, so while playerbase will be decreasing further and further, we only will get BPS and shards
Comments
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A lot of killers have said over the years, "just do bones".
I don't see why killers can't just snuff boons. Do bones.
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If only they actually broke. We can still dream though.
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Funny, because you cant actualldestroy Boons so your comparison fails here.
We would if it made any difference.
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Because survivors have too much time, while every second as killer is 4 for survivors, and wasting even 15 seconds to find and snuff totem is 60 survivor seconds repairing gens. Also, survivors can completely destroy totems, which means they can completely prevent noed, so your arguement is invalid, I can't do bones as killer, because I can't completely prevent survivors from using perk by completely destroying totem
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Hm... imagine if i could just relight my NOED.
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how does dead hard counter plague any harder than any other killer?
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Because the bones stay there after being snuffed. It's a waste of time unless you randomly stumble across one
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It doesn't, just mentioned it cuz even if you counter healing, there is 1 LITTLE problem left
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Boon need cool down.
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I remember when the no healing meta was gonna kill dbd because it encouraged genrushing. Oh well, I guess there's no pleasing everyone.
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I think everyone would gladly go back to the days of no healing. Atleast Dead Hard granted 2 Health States and not 3, and splitting pressure wasn't almost impossible.
With the new slowdown Perks Killers have been getting, "genrushing" wouldn't be as bad either
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tbf, that was when DS was just 60 seconds of flat invincibility and could be paired with unbreakable. Throw in deadhard and a bit of BT to body block and there isn't that much to be afraid of..... until BHVR then released the Oni in the middle of that meta.
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Thb such playstyle doesn't give you much points and pretty much boring, also you could at least snowball out of it, now you can't snowball, the "genrush" time is a bit longer, but worst part is you are getting a lot of points with this perks, you are doing gens, healing self, healing others and sometimes getting chased by the killer, even if you are not getting chased, placing a boon gives you...... well, insane amount of bp, 1.5k points in boldness is just... a lot. So there is another problem, unlike no healing genrush, while mmr also wasn't a thing, it was boring and not profitable, current meta gives you insane amount of bp
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Breaking a hex and removing it from the match permanently = killer snuffing totem that gets relit 30 seconds later? OK
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Imagine if your NOED had an interaction radius of 24 meters, beyond that there would be no insta down.
Imagine if your NOED had would emit a sound and visual (within those 24 meters) that telegraphed it's existence and approximate position.
Imagine if your NOED took 14 seconds to relight, but the other side could remove it in 1 second
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Healing is usually managable, medkits can be a problem but they really just need some light changes around the addon department to balance it out. The problem is primarily CoH which not only acts are a heal boost for medkits and other healing perks but it's also basically a free, semi-decent team wide self care. Which can be made all the more annoying if the boon is in a spot that requires you to waste a lot of time to snuff it out or people run multiple boons and just boon everything up. So I'd like to propose a solution to CoH specifically.
Solution: CoH runs on charges exactly like a medkit, the boon itself carries 64 charges which is enough to heal 4 people. Once the charges run out the boon goes back to a normal dull totem. To replenish charges you have to cleanse a dull totem. This change keeps CoH as a strong perk however it's now a limited resource, one that needs to be managed by your team and one that can dwindle very quickly if you're not careful with it and most importantly, can't be spammed all match. The biggest issue with CoH is that it's a very spammable perk that gives immense benefit and hopefully this change aims to stop that.
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Not as much as the slowdown, camp and tunnel meta.
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Slowdown, camp and tunnel meta exist because of other strategies are not viable, I would prefer hit and run playstyle with a bunch of not gen slowing perks, but there are no any good perks to affect healing, only sloppy butcher that is bad on ability hit killers and forced penance, which is ok but probably you are not going to get full value if you are going against decent survivors that are not taking protection hits. I can't say for all people, but me and none of my friends want to play camp and tunnel meta, but we are forced to do so if we want to win. Ofc, winning in dbd does nothing, there are no stats, kda and all that stuff you could care about, so why tunnel and bother winning? Idk that's more about personal feelings, and anyway, same stuff applies to survivors too, why running meta perks, why tbaging at exit gates if killer had bad game, so what I mean is every side tries to win, and expect other side to intentionally loose is dumb
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It's just hard to please DbD players sometimes.
First survivors do gens too efficiently, so the devs nerf healing speed, which created the no healing meta + Adrenaline meta, which killers complained about, survivors needed more objectives and spend time healing and such. So the devs release boons, which encourage survivors to spend time off gens to set up boons and heal, but now suddenly that's also a problem, when survivors have been told to 'do bones' for ages.
Same comes to pallets. First it's boring the survivors hide, so they make tracking killers/perks, then looping becomes meta and 'boring cause it's not fun running in circles', so came a bunch of anti loop killers and now the current meta is drop early and hold W.
Killers complain about the current meta, devs release perks/killers to help with the meta, survivors adept and suddenly the new meta is complained about.
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Wait so we complain about a healing meta and people also complained about the IW no heal meta?
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Let's be honest, bless totem take about 20 seconds ish, destroy boon, 5 seconds ish, so u are probably lazy to do it??? And another thing, is no guarantee that with your dumb style hit and run, that survs can use boosting perks like Resilence, and u crying about healing... Damn... Back to nutsery I guess
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Why are you missing basic things? Snuffing boon takes literally 1 second, however you should find boon first, and more, you should waste time to walk to this boon. Why I am even explaining you this, you just didn't read the post because I've stated these arguments there
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You're both probably playing two different games....if you catch my drift.
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I mean the "no heal meta" promoted gen rushing. At least time spent healing is some time off gens I guess...?
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If they won't heal, they will do gens. If they do gens, they will finish game faster and then they will heal at end game (or they will use Adrenaline). Is that what you want?
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I remember when healing was nerfed - it gave birth to the Resiliance, Spine Chill, Iron Will, Adrenaline meta and I believe it most definitely gave rise to what we now refer to as "gen rushing". Prior to that, Survivors would spend more time healing but this change showed survivors that they were wasting time healing and focus the generators instead. Survivors adapted to the changes and developed a new meta basically, which is something that will always happen.
I don't mind survivors healing, as I know that's less time they're spending on gens. Speed of healing could possibly be an issue - super fast medkits etc, but I do not think healing itself is the biggest issue.
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Come on,you really think healing with boons hurt the survivors?
It would be much worse if the just stayed injured and be prone to getting 1 hit and be noisy and leave blood pools.
The amount of healing it takes with coh is just too little to really affect the gen speeds.
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Circle of Healing need to nerfed again.
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The problem is that survivors will ignore healing completely and rush gens even faster if healing is useless. Look at chests, they use to be secondary objectives but since keys have become useless, no one wastes time on chest. Plunder's Instinct, Pharmacy, Ace in the Hole and Appraisal have become dead perks because they aren't worth the time spent open chests because 1 in 4 items in a chest are useless (keys), maybe even 1 in 2 items in a chest if you include flashlights.
You can't have a secondary objective if it's not worth the survivors time to do the secondary objective.
If healing is nerfed, then I guarantee that gen times are going to become faster because survivors won't waste their time healing.
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There was less gen defence.
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Yeah... at least with the Stay Injured, Do Gens meta, you could bring perks to deal with it and... heavily encourage people to heal anyway. Nobody wants to go down instantly vs a Legion or Deathslinger who's pretending to be Ghostface with perks that grant Undetectable.
Anti Healing perks are just not strong enough to deal with CoH and medkits. Sloppy is good when those aren't in play but with them in play it just gets overwhelmed. Coulrophobia does exist but only an idiot would keep trying to heal in the killer's Terror Radius once they see you have it. Forced Penance only comes into play if Survivors take protection hits. Deathbound doesn't do anything if the Survivors self heal. A Nurse's Calling is actually pretty good but a lot of killers can't use it effectively because their Terror Radius is larger than the perk's range.
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Team heling is fine. You drag multiple survivors off generators to buy time for yourself or even have a chance to interrupt it and get a down and injure. Self healing is not when it is just as fast as two people, and downright broken when it is team wide at the cost of 1/16 perks allowing them to bring toolboxes or flashlights and even med kits to make it even faster.
At least after the med kit buff you could still wear them down or use franklins.
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I don't think anything can be called "meta" without perks associated to them, there is no "healing meta" without any healing items/perks.
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Well it’s all about speed of healing. For example if hypothetically self healing with CoH took two minutes to finish that would obviously be so slow that nobody would bother doing it. If it took 2 seconds that would be clearly broken. So somewhere in the middle are time frames for self healing where it’s fast enough that survivors will consider doing it but slow enough that injuring a survivor is still worth it for the killer to do to keep someone off the gens for a bit.
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It completely destroys m1 killers,that we're already weak.
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I agree, healing it hurts hit and run style killers. But like I said, it’s the speed of the healing that matters. If self healing took two minutes it wouldn’t matter if an M1 killer injured someone and broke off because that survivor wouldn’t spend that much time healing. So there’s a balance point somewhere where healing yourself is fast enough to be worth it but slow enough that it doesn’t break hit and run killers.
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Then just do better in chases? If survivors are healing, then don't do a hit and run tactic? Commit to a chase and hook them?
Healing is only strong when the killer allows it to happen. Commit to the chase, or interrupt them while healing.
Also: If healing becomes unworth it to do, we'll get on gens. Maybe Resilience which will make it even stronger.
Meaning: Stop hit and dipping. Just commit to chases. Or play one tap killers like Billy and Bubba. Or play killers with strong chases, like Nurse.
Also about Sadoko, she's really good at mindgames with teleporting. It doesn't have to be a hit and dip.
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It's funny that Killers want gen speeds to be slower, yet secondary objectives like chests and healing were put into the game to do exactly that and killers requests chests "Keys" be nerfed into uselessness, which they were and now no one does chests, making gen speeds faster. Now the exact same thing is happening with healing.
Killer do realize the developers added boon totems as secondary objectives to slow down gen speeds, right? The "only" boon totem worth blessing is CoH. Survivors aren't going to do secondary objectives unless they are worthwhile to do.
BTW, the funny thing about key's being nerfed is that it increased toolboxes being used, speeding up gens.
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I agree with everything. There were better ways to nerf the keys than by changing the hatch mechanics.
And if the CoH gets more nerf in healing % and not overall totem blessing time, I think few will use the other booms (except in purely niche and situational builds), self-care, medical kits and botanical knowledge will return = more time spent on gens
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Ah, good to see m1 killers are going to be left to languish. Wonderful.
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Nothing felt better as survivor than when 1/2 of your teammates had died and you happen to find a key from a chest, which let you and the other survivor escape through hatch (if enough gens had been done). Kinda miss that feeling of defeat and then randomly finding a key in a chest being a glimmer of hope.
Though I understand the hatch nerf, I just don't understand why they'd remove it for when all 5 gens had been done. I get multiple survivors escaping through hatch with gens still left feeling unfair for killer, but if all 5 gens has been done, surely it's fair if survivors wanted to look for hatch, instead of going for gates.
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I don't think anyone's saying healing should be useless. The problem is wounding is the main mechanism the killer has. If a survivor can heal in ten seconds, that completely eliminates any pressure caused by the main thing killer does. Imagine a killer perk that can remove all the progress from a gen in ten seconds.
It makes wounding pointless. Killers have to hook every chase or they're wasting time. Everyone's complaining about tunneling, but that's the only pressure a killer has.. Splitting up the pain used to be a good idea, now it's not, you go after the wounded or you're wasting time.
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Speed of healing (Circle of Healing is faster than medkits) and the amount that can be placed is an issue. Try going against 3 circle of healing on a map with exponential on 2. Killer hexes don't even get to be out back up when destroyed.
You listed a bunch of perks, but right now we just have COH meta, because all it takes is 9 seconds to heal another player without other perk buffs.
The problem is trying to balance a game that should never had been balanced to begin with. Killer should always be meta over survivor. But we have so many Exhaustion perks now, plus healing perks, not so good gen perks, it's just I don't think the killer's are getting as much care as they should. Every killer I come across is running an anti gen rush build because that's all they have.
I think there needs to be better communication with the community than just listening to a bunch of entitled, sore losers complaining all the time because it's lead to Meta heal with just 1 simple perk. Not 4 different types of playstyles as you mentioned. We are the ones playing and we make the overall decision of the direction of the game. I'd hate to see such a great game go in the toilet because the devs are refusing an actual discussion and critique from their own consumers. What makes a great game? The players do and right now it's pretty toxic. I'd love to see more than you or Peanits get involved in discussion. Thus game should never have been turned into a competitive game. That's what wrought the meta healing and other meta stuff that just doesn't need to be in the game at all. I hope you take this into consideration and I'm always open to chatting or clearing up anything.
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Important note: I'm okay with healing by other survivors, at least it takes time of 2 people, especially with CoH which requiers 2 survivors to probably walk some distance to be healed, but I am not ok with Self Healing speed, as far as I know, with CoH buff selfcare action will only take 12 seconds, and this is the problem, combination of 2 perks is barely better, and sometimes even worse that CoH, I am talking about selfcare and botany knowledge, especially it's way worse without a medkit, this should not be a thing, 2 perks shouldn't be worse than 1 doing the same thing, also want to mention desperate measures, with 4 injured survivors the bonus healing speed is only 56%, which is smaller than CoH and the requierment is pretty much insane, while CoH requiers nothing, I know that desperate measures also increases unhooking speed but it's basically useless.
We need more perk balancing, just looking at basic numbers showing that some perks are underperforming
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You missed her entire point.
- Killers wanted slower gen speeds.
- The developers gave killers slower gen speeds by adding a secondary objective (Boon Totems)
- Survivors are only going to do secondary objectives if it's in the Survivors interest to do them. Hence, CoH has to be better than Self Care or survivors will not do them. (No one in upper levels of play uses Self Care because it's not good, it's a noob trap).
- If CoH is nerfed, gen speeds will get done faster because survivors will stop blessing totems and stop healing.
It's the exact same thing that happened to Chests. Chests use to be a secondary objective but after keys were nerfed, Chests and Chest perks became essentially "dead perks". Gen speeds increased because everyone just ignores chests now.
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The irony of complaining the healing meta is killing DBD, when it was the non healing meta the created the current gen rush and get out as fast as possible game play.
SMH
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Hi Mandy, if superfast medkits are a problem would it be possible to do a general nerf to items or keep the strong tiems but maybe add a risk of dropping your item when hit by the killer. (a feature I have wished for a long time.) Should I make a feedback discussion about it?
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"Every killer I come across is running an anti gen rush build because that's all they have."
This is true, and in the same manner, most survivors in turn run full second-chance perks to stay alive long enough to maybe finish the generators. One begets the other, and this kind of meta has wedged itself so far into the game that killers and survivors are punished for deviating from this even slightly. Every time I go and play more than 2 games with off-meta perks, I'm immediately reminded why I don't do this more often.
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I didn't miss her point. Seems you missed mine. All I want from COH is removing the ability for more than 1 player to have it on the map. I haven't seen one killer win against a team with COH on 3-4 survivors. I also want to deviate away from having to use the same perks just to have a chance to win.
Example... I have to always run Borrowed Time in solo queue because there is always that survivor who just decides to run towards the killer. On top of that, I have to run Spine Chill just to signal the other players when the killer is coming.
I'd prefer a stealth build, but then when I do that, my team goes down fast.
I don't play SWF so I don't know what it's like, but maybe that's what the game is missing? Communication? Something is off and I'm just trying to figure it out because nobody else wants to.. Instead they want to argue and complain about it.
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Exactly my point.
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