What do you think stops BHVR from showing us who WAS playing with friends or solo?
Heard this idea for years... Just think of SWFs and solo icons on the tally screen, not before but AT THE END of the match.
Do you think killers could use it as an "excuse"? Maybe the system can't even track it 100% when it comes to crossplay? Do you have any other reasons? And if not or you don't care, why not just show it at the end for a better understandment what's really happening in our games?
Comments
-
Probably toxicity. People would be blamed for playing with friends (which happens already, but it would probably happen even more often), because a Killer player can only lose because of SWF, it cannot be because of own mistakes. I also only lose against SWFs, the 20 Hatchets I miss as Huntress are not the reason.
Surely it would also be used as an excuse. Even tho, it would be funny to see those Killer Main-Streamers who say they go against Top Tier SWFs all the time seeing how many Solos they actually get.
But yeah, it is probably to avoid an uptick in toxicity. I would not mind if I see it or not, I dont really care that much. 4 strong Solos can beat a Killer in roughly the same manner like a strong 4 man-SWF, the difference is just that the 4 Solos need to get good RNG to get a team full of strong Survivors while SWF removes this RNG. (But only if those are good, the number of casual SWFs or SWFs who are mediocre at best is also way higher than the number of really strong SWFs...)
30 -
Yh much as I'd like to see it, so I can get a sense of the difference between solo q and swf. There are so many people who would just use it as justification for abusing people.
4 -
I don't know what stops them.
I mean, is chat going to be worse than what you see on a normal small twitch stream?
4 strong solo players will loop well. They won't coordinate well. And you'll notice that while playing. You may still lose because you decided to chase one of them through every pallet on Eyrie(no judgements, I do this, just to see how messed up pallets are). But they are unlikely to consistently display SWF level of coordinated action.
It would be good information to have, I wish they would give a more detailed breakdown at the end of the match, I suspect, properly presented it might reduce the malice that is currently present.
1 -
Some killers think they face SWFs all the time. Maybe that would make them see they just need to get better.
14 -
Toxicity and excuses. There's no good that can come from it.
Unfortunately no. That'll never happen for a certain portion of the population. They have 1000 hrs in a 7 year old game and think they're at the skill cap. They don't realize it'll probably take 2000 hours to be average. And if you bring up killer players who don't have issues with SWF, top 5% kill rates, or any other evidence, they move the goal posts to Mars. Some players are only in it for the power fantasy, not a competitive challenge.
9 -
It would definitely be nice to see on paper, but in practice I could see it turning sour pretty quickly.
Groups of two or more make up about half of all Survivors (varies per region). You're probably facing and beating some sort of group in each match, but you may not even realize it because on average, grouped players don't really perform better than ungrouped players. While great Survivors playing together and coordinating can be very powerful, the vast majority of people are just casually hanging out with their friends, no harder to kill than anyone else.
On paper, this sounds like a great thing. You'll see that you're beating groups on a regular basis and it might show how rare these unstoppable squads are, maybe even show that even competent solo players can do really well sometimes. But in practice, that's not how brains work. It's easy to look at a win and go, "I won because I'm good." - you just won what is supposedly a hard match, after all. It's a lot harder to swallow a loss and say, "I lost because I didn't do as well as I could." This isn't something that's exclusive to any side or even Dead by Daylight/gaming as whole. When someone's frustrated, it's very difficult to take a step back and think rationally.
I do fear that showing this would only lead to SWF becoming more of a scapegoat when someone has a rough match (if one was even present). It becomes an easy thing you can point to and go, "Well that's why I lost." - even if you killed multiple groups without any problem in your previous matches. It doesn't make you feel better about your loss, it doesn't make you reflect on what you could have done differently, it just directs your anger to people who are simply playing the game. Features which help you direct your frustration towards other people rather than reflecting on your performance will always be a tough sell.
And to be clear, yes, although they are very rare, there are some super coordinated highly skilled groups out there who could very well be very difficult to catch, and by no means do I mean to deny that. The scapegoat situation I'm referring to are the games that definitely could have played out differently depending on how you performed and the decisions you made.
Short version: Would it be cool to know? Yes. Would it be beneficial? I'm not quite convinced. Ultimately, the time spend working on a feature like this would probably be better spent on balance or new QOL features to make those kinds of matches less frustrating in the first place.
42 -
If you are having a bad match just believe in your heart they are SWF
8 -
If it really is that rare and really isn’t that significant it shouldn’t be an issue showing it since after all we can prove the killers have been making it up in their heads all this time and just coping right?
Realistically we won’t see it because not seeing it allows the games problems and disparities to be covered up better. It’s essentially the same reason they won’t show peoples mmr. The whole increasing toxicity reason is a scapegoat.
4 -
"...You're probably facing and beating some sort of group in each match,..."
The guy with the spreadsheet literally said, its in each match.
So, we can assume based on the lecturer's material, that every match has a SWF element to it.
Therefore we don't need the official tool, we can just say "SWF was in my match and made it harder."
GGEZ
5 -
It's unlikely they'll do something that'd affect the main playerbase negatively.
0 -
So much low-key toxicity being passed off as cool headed observations in this thread.
Anyways, like everyone else has said, showing who is SWF would give irrationally thinking people something to point at as being a problem - which isn't limited to one side. I only play survivor solo, and I can't tell you how many times I've put myself on the line to save someone else only to have them and their buddies escape while I die. I assume they're SWF, but it's easy to think that, because humans in groups tend to become "toxic" towards outsiders and adversaries. Granted, that still doesn't prove they're an SWF, or even that they were being toxic. But seeing at the end of a match that they're an SWF sure would give me the ability to argue otherwise, ad nauseum.
On the other hand, it would be interesting to let SWF players garner some direct attention given the abuses carried out by many SWF groups. More attention could result in adjustments, and balance. But, that won't happen when many people play SWF exclusively, not to mention, more than half of DBD streamers' content is based on toxic SWF behavior.
2 -
Eh -- the reason everyone hates SWF isn't because it's oppressive -- it's because it facilitates bullying. Not that every SWF is full of bullies but, if you ARE a bully, then SWF makes it that much easier for you (and that much worse for the target).
I personally don't think it matters whether people have wrong beliefs about why they lost, but I think having a clearer idea of who was in a group can help you understand what just happened socially. Nea and David were mean to you, but was that Claudette with them or did she just happen to be in the match?
In some cases, I think it would actually help to be able to see that, even if it felt like everyone was laughing at you, it was actually just these two people and everyone else was solo and trying to play normally.
1 -
I think some killers would have an existential crisis looking at an end screen with no SWF icons.
14 -
I would personally like to see it implemented.
The concern that it'll lead to more toxicity is overblown imo, but I understand the thought process and admit I might be wrong.
Holding something back due to the fear that some people (potentially a minority) may purposefully/accidentally misinterpret the system, even while others would benefit, is just a viewpoint hard for me to get behind.
7 -
did i lose that chase because i made a mistake or because someone was on comms with the player i was chasing telling them exactly what i was doing?
i guess it doesn't matter cause the devs said theyre just casually hanging out with their friends. no problem.
2 -
Yeah, that...hasn't really been my experience.
I know what you're saying, but even the more casual SWFs are absolutely operating under incredibly advantageous conditions - being able to coordinate perks alone is a massive advantage, ditto knowing when something is about to finish up. These are crucial and yet easy to communicate information packets that, from the killer's point of view, makes the game much more difficult.
Then, another rung up is Fogwise. A few streamers have twigged onto this absolute monstrosity of a perk that, if the killer isn't undetectable, grants almost 100% uptime on vision of the killer. It's very similar to prenerf OoO in that it straight up junks Trapper and Hag, and is very tough to face as most other killers.
It would be nice for our own piece of mind to be able to go 'oh yeah, that was a 4man, no wonder I got pantsed' or 'huh, those were just really good solos?'. I think the concerns about toxicity are a bit overblown too - when I see BM in postgame, it tends to be the survivors for the most part.
7 -
Killers already get too much info pre match, they don't need anymore.
4 -
Like...what?
0 -
doesnt really matter if you're a killer and want to figure out what happened in a game so you can improve. youre just there to show survivors a good time.
3 -
This idea would have been more useful before the status icons. Most killer games feel like you are playing against a SWF now so it is less important.
2 -
@Peanits I think this is the first time i see a Dev talking about it, so tx for your detailed thoughts on the topic.
To be honest, i'm playing on console, so i don't need to care about endgame chat anyway. But from what i heard and saw in all that years, most endgame chats are full of sore winners or losers anyway, many times spiced up with salt (nothing wrong about salt tho), entitlement and toxicity. And they all could avoid that by just dissabling the endgame chat (it's still an option on PC, right?)... but they don't. Now why is that? Because ppl like drama, blame others over themselves or they wanna just say GG. And with more given information (no emotions, just facts) FOR ALL PLAYERS, i believe it would lead to a better understandment of both sides, at least in general. Also many killers, even solo players would be suprised how often it was not a SWFs. Which can really give a better feeling after a match, for both sides.
And besides, you can give solos as much info and "buffs" you want (don't forget that SWFs will benefit from basekit perks even more as the game doesn't make a difference who's playing with friends or solo), it will never trump players who are able to matchmake together (even better for them when they're on the same skill level), knowing eachothers perks, playstyles and beeing able to do efficient, specific callouts during the game. Eruption is the current best example, as SWFs can just callout when they're close to getting downed so the others can let go from the gen, efficiently. And than you have Pain Res, which is way to easy to counter, at least for survs with a brain.
Imo the biggest improvement you can do for solos is to finally add bots when a DC happend. This alone, paired with removing the ability for survs killing themselves on the hook (without certain perks) would be the biggest buff for solo players.
0 -
My man the guy just said yeah swf don't really perform all that much better on average
3 -
I'm curious as to know they know people are on voice chat in the first place. Sometimes I'm on the phone on speaker with my friend, how can they detect that? O.o
0 -
feels like it'd just be used for toxicity, or bragging rights when you defeat a swf team. all in all, i think it's a bad addition imo, just breeds annoying people
3 -
I think she means how killers can see names and click on profiles pre-match. Potential to dodge the lobby if profiles are not hidden.
1 -
i wouldn't mind seeing it at the end screen if it happened but why, it seems kinda pointless, i doubt they would waste the time as it adds nothing of substance to the game
1 -
Yah, he said a lot and it felt honestly stated.
In particular he mentioned the developer time to implement the feature and how it would delay their preferred goal of providing tools that make the unbeatable matches more manageable(whatever that turns out to mean).
I feel like they have added some nice new features, especially the survivor icons, feels like they know where things are going wrong, maybe they have a better fix in mind.
1 -
I'd love it if people couldn't access your bloody Steam profile through the game (it's literally why I have a private profile and now use anon mode because wow there are some weird people in this game) but you can just enable anon mode to stop that.
Sure...but in that case there's a weird disconnect between developers here.
Is toxicity something worth avoiding, or is it an integral part of online gaming?
(There's another post that I've literally combed the internet for where the devs say that they want survivors teabagging the killer to feel satisfying, in regards to animation changes, but it is apparently lost to the ether).
I'm usually reluctant to do this, but it bothers me when someone talks out of both sides of their mouth.
You literally defended suiciding on hook in another thread.
Your reason was, going by the post, it's fine for people to deliberately ruin matches because that's how they have fun, and that anyone who doesn't want their matches ruined is entitled?
I can link it here, if you'd like.
So...suiciding for the hell of it is fine, but you're concerned about killers being a bit salty in postgame.
Gotcha.
4 -
Well.
She's part of the problem. Toxic behavior isn't something to be cultivated for profit, which is what I'll assume her motive is. That is a bad way to be, more so when you have say over the design and development of a product that will touch hundreds of people.
That type of human actually makes me sad.
Its part of our culture here in gaming, she has a tiny portion of power to fix that, apparently she won't be doing that.
But, just like in dead by daylight teams are diverse, she can be their locker Dwight and the other guy can be the Gen rushing Haddie...
or something.
I'm hopeful.
1 -
Killer is in a completely terrible state right now if you are playing at high MMR.
I have a request for you and the entire DBD staff : play killer for a month with a 3000 MMR account that can't lose any mmr (if necessary have the accounts have the MMR reset daily).
The rules for the challenge are as follows :
- You may not play Nurse/Blight.
- You may not only play killers with only their best addons. Imagine you get 1 of each addon and then you have to go through all the other addons before your "good addons" reset. ( There is one exception: you are allowed to play Michael Myers with either purple tombstone or infinite T3 because he is unplayable without one addon or the other).
See how much fun you have.
"Would it be cool to know? Yes. Would it be beneficial? I'm not quite convinced"
After hundreds of matching tests in my own game I have concluded the following:
- Playing against SWF is not fun and is more frustrating
- Playing against SWF gives me harder matches and fewer points
- Items make survivors stronger - so I should play people who bring fewer items
- Killer queue times are instant so I can be very selective about who I play against.
- I have the most fair matches when all the survivors are playing alone.
Conclusion:
I should do my best to play against SWF players as infrequently as possible.
When someone is in my lobby with TTV I immediately open their stream to see if they are solo or SWF. Not Queen determined years ago this was not against the rules. Yes I will attempt to also see their perks. Why? Because playing killer is getting less fun all the time.
The majority of my matches are SWF. I know this because I look at the profile of everyone who comes into my game. I do not play anyone who is playing 3/4 man SWF anymore- unless they are under a certain number of hours. Before this patch playing against 2x 2 man SWF teams was somewhat bearable. But now everyone is more efficient and it feels like every game is against a 4 man SWF.
When I play DBD I am selective with my lobbies. I do not play vs 4 medkits (unless I am playing Plague) because I can't know if they are brown or purple .
When I see people come in to my lobby I can tell if they are solo or in a group depending on when they come in/leave. Often I "shop" around until I know that I'm not playing against a 3/4 man SWF.
Most of the time I already know who is in a SWF before the game starts. If player 3 leaves then the replacement player cannot be in a SWF with anyone else. Then if player 1 leaves I know the same information. Also if player 1 & 2 were alone in the lobby for 20 seconds then I also know player 1 is alone; by odds of elimination I also know player 4 is alone since players 1,2 & 3 are alone.
When someone is in my lobby with TTV I immediately open their stream to see if they are solo or SWF. Not Queen determined years ago this was not against the rules. Yes I will attempt to also see their perks. Why? Because playing killer is getting less fun all the time.
When someone comes in with anonymous mode on I will usually leave the lobby. Why? If you're not sure - dodge. There are an infinite number of survivors lined up waiting.
People lie to me all the time and say : we aren't swf. Then I say : I can see you on each other's friends list. And then they say - well we're not a full swf so it doesn't count. That's not how it works you are either solo queue or you are not.
5 -
While I see where Peanits is coming from, personally I don't agree. On the same grounds Prestige shouldn't be shown. - You could even make an argument against perks/add-ons being shown, though that'd be a lot more far fetched simply because it would be outweighed by cheating-accusations / would enable cheating.
Point is, I rather have more transparency than being kept ignorant "for my own good". I much rather have the e.g. swf info and have only anon mode (even though I love having funny names) - those who still don't like what they read in egc can disable egc. Context is key and knowing how many swf you go up against and how many people are in that swf gives a lot of context to what your wins/losses mean.
While I can see how swf don't actually have much higher escape rates overall (while they can have potential advantages not everyone in a swf uses that potential. - And even if swf make use of certain advantages they are more prone to other errors / misplays; e.g. the altruism trap) it also doesn't sit too well with me to have someone say "That's how it is, I got the numbers, just trust me".
3 -
The devs with the spreadsheets said that the vast majority of the survivors play, on paper, similarly to solo queues. They gave us an answer right there
Most information perks can accomplish an average SWP duo ngl.
1 -
way to completely disregard my actual point in my post just to start unnecessary drama from another thread lmao, you really just are mad at me i guess
i genuinely have no idea what you're even talking about, i remember saying the complete opposite on suiciding on hook.
but literally the threads are like weeks old and i've moved past them as i've been extremely sick all week, and i have better things to do than ponder over dbd forum drama so if you're really this mad that you claim to memorize my posts from weeks old threads just to prove a point, honestly you can have it since you want it that badly. i don't care anymore dude. just let it go
0 -
No...what drama? You have a distinctive name and avatar and I immediately went 'hang on, why do I remember this guy?'. Then I saw that post and went 'uh...wait what's going on?'.
I'm trying to figure out the double standard here.
Surely the 'I can play however I like even if it ruins games and if you're annoyed about it then you're being entitled' thing cuts both ways? If something that's pretty damn close to griefing is perfectly acceptable because 'that's how I have fun'...then what's the concern about someone being salty in postgame?
You seem to be confusing the terms 'drama' and 'disagreement'. But I guess that's something folks seem to be making a habit of these days.
Keep in mind that tone doesn't convey well online and apparently my style comes over as sarcastic at times. That's...not my intention.
Post edited by StarLost on2 -
until you prove i said those things i'm just going to presume you're just drama-stirring, dude. legit even if you did prove it i still want you to leave me alone, genuinely don't want to keep fighting the same person just because you keep arguing with me in every discussion i take part in it's getting tiring dude
0 -
I can snip and paste the comments here, if you'd prefer.
I'm...also not fighting you, mate. No idea why you're taking this as an attack. Tone doesn't carry well online, is it possible you're reading something into my posts that isn't there?
You don't get to say it's...not only completely fine for a survivor to suicide, because 'it's how they have fun' and then go on to say that anyone who disagrees is actually the entitled one - then turn around and say that well, we can't give killers information about who was in an SWF after the match because - and I quote - 'it breeds annoying people'.
No.
Not a chance.
Unless you're massively biased towards the 'survivors can do literally no wrong and killers can do literally no right' mindset that I see...just way too much of in this game, can you not see the incongruity here?
And no, you don't get to do that and then go 'well, if you disagree or point it out then you're literally attacking me and drama stirring'...again, uh-uh. If you make a post or a response on a public forum, so long as they are being courteous and keeping to the rules, you don't get to choose who can respond to you and who can't.
0 -
i've given you so many times to post proof and you don't. you claim to have it. post it already, holy ######### dude, you're no different than a ######### stirrer
0 -
I have the firm belief that showing who played with whom afterwards would be much to the games benefit.
We would know that the super tough matches were probably so tough because they were in a 3 or 4 man SWF, and we would also see that many of the fun or casually easy matches were also against SWFs, proofing that just as many are potatoes or fooling around. In the end most killers would see that they aren'tagainst seal teams every other match and that most SWFs aren't too dangerous. But it also mends hurt egos. Win win.
1 -
Wait...you said 'don't post it'. Now you're saying 'post it'.
I'm happy to do either, but you need to A. conclusively choose one or the other, B. calm down first and C. stop calling me names. Otherwise...yeah, we should just drop it there because I will likely be disagreeing with you.
0 -
yeah, you don't have any proof. thanks for making that obvious. this is like the 3rd time i've asked and you're still dodging posting it. i guess you've practiced talking out your ass. anyways, i have better things to be doing, go waste someone else's time since that's apparently all you want to be doing today, i actually have plans of enjoying my saturday, thanks
0 -
Okay then. No idea why you're so damn hostile, but here we go.
Now, aside from the obvious 'why are you so hostile to anyone who disagrees with you?' question (already asked, will never be answered)...yeah. That sort of speaks for itself.
- Suiciding is 'playing my way'. You're 'entitled' if you don't like it.
- You are under no obligation to play out a game after you click ready.
- Apparently I'm arguing in bad faith for suggesting it.
- How do the first two there line up with your 'annoying people' comment here?
Feel free to enjoy your Saturday, I'm going to go and give the missus a back rub, then we'll be playing D&D but I'll check back after.
Cheers!
1 -
swf completely breaks the game, bhvr doesnt care about the integrity of their game or they would ban swf. them not letting killers even see when they play swf is just disrespect to killers. you have no idea if youre doing wrong things or if players are on comms. just a dancing monkey for survivors.
1 -
If they showed that info, then the guy in the 4 man can't lie and go "I wAs SoLo" in end game chat
2 -
Well said
0 -
How does that help against Crossplay players?
0 -
They can't detect it nor prevent it.
0 -
Features which help you direct your frustration towards other people rather than reflecting on your performance will always be a tough sell.
You mean how the existence of the Killer Role helps direct Survivors frustrations? 😂🤣 Teehee.
I mean to say I agree with you and you are probably right. But a lot of stuff in the game already does this.
0 -
I feel that last bit so much.
I don't understand how people can complaint it "isn't really a SWF" if there is only 3 of then.
That's still a SWF.
2 -
Banning them would absolutely kill the game, and putting them on blast in the lobby would lead to endless dodging so they'd never ever get a match.
0 -
Perhaps it would be okay to show who is playing SWF in the pregame to survivors only? Some people in our community greatly enjoy their own amateur data analysis (counting how many games vs each killer / on each map / vs each perk), I'm sure people would get a kick out of counting how many duos and trios they get paired with as fellow teammates.
0
