Calling it Now: Freddy Rework Will Be GARBAGE in Current Meta Unless Dream Snares Are OP
Downsides
1) Nerfed invisibility mindgames - Freddy is invisible only when survivors are outside Freddy's terror radius, which will be increased to 32m. Say goodbye to empty pill bottle mind games! Spirit has now become the undisputed master of mindgames with this change alone.
2) Teleportation ability telegraphs like a neon sign - Not at all useful as an offensive tool unless you're playing against someone blind and deaf. It's a 5-second channeled ability that alerts survivors working on a generator that Freddy's channeling his teleportation ability and Freddy can only teleport to a generator. This gives a survivor a 20m headstart before Freddy even gets there! That's better than sprint burst and it's COMPLETELY FREE! This ability also has a long cooldown.
3) Nerfed endgame potential - RIP endgame Freddy meme builds. Survivors can now wake themselves up with a clock on a pedestal similar to Plague fountain.
4) Removed stalling potential - Freddy's ability no longer slows survivor actions. Freddy's going to be just as vulnerable to generator rushing as any other M1 killer.
5) No mapwide auras - Sleeping survivors do not have an aura. This is probably the biggest change to Freddy, which affects your planning when playing as Freddy.
Upsides
1) Dream state - You can hit any survivor when in melee range, regardless of what they're doing.
2) Swapped terror radius - Negate Borrowed Time by standing next to a survivor doing an unhook then hit the unhooker and then hit the person unhooked.
3) Loop denial - Dream snares can deny loops, but only if survivor is asleep. If the debuffs are the same as hinder and nothing else, this might get him a free hit. If he can place dream snares while running a loop, it can possibly shorten chases by forcing the survivor to abandon the loop, but that will depend on a lot of other various factors, such as whether the dream snares take a long time to create, and how many dream snares Freddy has to work with. I'm going to assume they work identically to Hag's traps.
Neutral
1) Forcing survivor into making mistakes potential - Fake pallets can potentially make survivors take a bad loop and get hit.
2) Sabotage hook checks wake survivors up - Who cares? Filing this under neutral.
3) Teleportation - Better map presence on larger maps, but this won't get you into a chase any faster because survivors will have a 20m headstart to get to a safe tile before you even show up.
Verdict
If Freddy gets dream snares and fake pallets, he might be only slightly worse than he is now. If designers only give him one of those, he'll be way worse than current Freddy in the current meta UNLESS dream snares are overpowered.
This rework is a bad combination of Hag (hinder traps) + Doctor (fake pallets) + Nurse (teleportation).
This entire rework hinges on how impactful dream snares are to Freddy's gameplay as they are his clutch mechanic and require setup in advance of a chase unless the dream snares are used to make the survivor abandon a loop.
Comments
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Teleporting to a gen will be crazy strong dude. Equip PGTW and BBQ/Thrilling Tremors, you will be an absolute gen crusher. I highly doubt anyone will use this power in a chase expect for a few key spots.
Devs also said that his chain/rope add-ons will slow down survivors in dream world. So he can still technically play to slow the game just not the same as before.
That said, I will miss the old Freddy. He will be an entirely different kind of killer now, and I honestly liked the way he was before.
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People really be out here saying that the Freddy rework is going to make him WEAKER
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With the buff to PGTW's timer, any killer can run that perk now that it has 60 seconds to use it or lose it, but I get what you're saying. With Discordance/Tinkerer, you could potentially see what generator's about to go off after an unhook and make maximum use of PGTW faster than even Billy or Nurse... But again, you still have to get into a chase, which as I said previously, you give them a 20m headstart.
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As far as the gen teleport, can we say for sure that the Survivors will be alerted for the full 5 seconds? In the demonstration they showed, the gen bled for only about 2 seconds before Freddy popped in. Now, it's hard to say whether that's because the gen doesn't spew blood until the teleport is almost fully prepped or whether they just shortened the teleport time for demonstration purposes, but I'd like a proper clarification before making a case for teleport being potentially good or bad.
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I wanna give it a try.
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But I also think that Freddy should still have a 50% reduced action speed in dream world for survivors.
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Most people underestimate how good Freddy really is if you play him effectively.
This proposed rework, based on the leaked details, might end up as a nerf depending on how strong dream snares are.
If the dream snares are weaksauce, it's going to be a straight-up nerf compared to current Freddy with a proper perk build and good addons.
I mean, WHO CARES if I can teleport if that means my opponent will be two tiles-distance away by the time I even show up? Five seconds + telegraphing move = Bad, very bad, bad, bad...
The rest of the changes are just more nerfs to invisibility and stalling capabilities.... If you don't compensate Freddy for giving those up, it's a bad rework!
Most people whine about not being able to hit people as Freddy when they're awake, but I say... No, that's fine... He's got a tiny body, tiny terror radius, normal lunge range, and if you use the correct addons, Freddy's absolutely terrifying to play against.
If someone dies early game against Freddy, more than any other killer, due to his stalling ability, Freddy shines the most because he slows the game down to a crawl and gets those 3 other kills!
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stop making assumptions and wait until we see the real changes in live gameplay.
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What do you mean "have to get into a chase"? AFAIK you can do the gen teleport any time you want, as long as it's charged.
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They thought it was too hard for people to wake up.
I repeat. Too. Hard. To. Wake. Up.
Ignoring the fact that this is only a problem that needs fixing if you keep the auras (which they aren't); it is in fact TOO EASY to wake up in Freddy's current state. Allowing for survivors to have another way to wake up was not needed. This is absolutely the definition of fixing a problem that doesn't exist after they already "fixed" it by removing the aura reading.
Like...... that is the number one complaint people have about Freddy in general. Sleeping an entire survivor team doesn't do much because you chase one and the other three wake up almost immediately. In a meta where it's already a major complaint that it is too easy to wake up; the first thing they are doing with the rework is making it easier to wake up.
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The second thing I don't like about the rework is that they removed all the major downsides to being asleep. The downside is that dream snares or dream pallets, not both but just one, will now work on you. You no longer get the action cooldown, the aura reading, or anything else that actually made putting people to sleep good. All you get out of dream state is some of the worst parts of the builds from the trap killers and the doctor. There is absolutely no way under any circumstance that dream snares + dream pallets is ample compensation for losing the 50% action speed cooldown and the aura reading. "But Redd they put a weaker version of the cooldown on some add-ons." Why the flying popsicles do we always need specific add-ons to make any killer not terrible? Shouldn't a killer be viable at base instead of hot doo doo without specific add-ons?
Oh and did I mention that it's now easier to wake up? Which was already super super easy?
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Being able to hit survivors immediately, something every other 115% ms killer could do already, comes at the cost of the majority of Freddy's stealth. Goody goody gumdrops. Yes, it's very very nice that we can now hit people. But Freddy is now JUST an M1 killer except for the one positive they gave him.
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So what compensates Freddy for all these changes? Well it's supposed to be the gen teleport. Which, to be admitted, is pretty good for some map presence. But unless the Dream Snares are way better than they look, he's going to be somewhere around a worse Clown when he starts an actual chase. I'm sure he'll get some cool add-ons, but I hate having to run add-ons to be able to do anything.
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i mean, did u really think they gonna make a strong killer? never give this studio the benefit of the doubt ever again. they disappointed the community too often for that.
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Rework definition
make changes to the original version of something
BHVR rework definition
*NERF*
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I think he will be stronger overall with his new rework, of course this is all based from speculation.
I saw you forgot to mention a new mechanic to wake Survivors up: The Alarm Clocks.
Recall that in the anniversary stream they showed footage of Survivors going to clocks across the map to wake them up temporarily. I think this is a nice touch and also maybe gives a bit of an edge to predict where Survivors may go when they are completely asleep.
One other thing, Isn't it a good thing that all Survivors eventually fall asleep instead of having to put them to sleep yourself?
I'm excited to see how he works and how strong he will be.
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We'll see, it's a bit too early to make assumptions...wait till PTB of the rework is available.
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There's a lot of confusion here, which is not surprising since nobody has seen or tried the new Freddy yet, so I'll clarify a couple things.
1) It's not a matter of it being too hard. Anyone can fail a skill check to wake. One of the issues hear is that it's confusing to new players. Failing a skill check to wake up isn't intuitive to a newer player and they might not figure that out for a long time. Having a dedicated "wake up" object offers an intuitive alternative.
This does not make it easier to wake up. Instead of just getting on the nearest generator and mashing their skill check button until one pops up, they'll instead have to spend time going to the "wake up" object and then more time interacting with it. It's a more consistent way, but it's not an easy way to wake up by any means.
To top that off, sleep is now passive. Survivors will be constantly falling asleep without Freddy needing to tag them. It's now significantly easier to put survivors to sleep in the first place.
2) Being asleep has various downsides, as we've mentioned. First and foremost, dream traps will come into play while you're asleep. Beyond that, the terror radius is replaced with the lullaby, making it very difficult to pinpoint where Freddy is. There are also add-ons that will affect people who are asleep- we've already mentioned that some will slow down action speeds much like the current version of Freddy. I can't reveal anything new right now, but there are definitely downsides.
Jumping to conclusions without ever playing him-- let alone seeing him-- isn't going to do anyone any favours. Even in the OP only, there's some misinformation. Dream traps do not need to be placed in advance, they can be placed during a chase. It's best we all wait until we get our hands on it before we make any decisions. Until then, it's purely speculation.
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Yeah i have the same toughts on the matter, they just turned him into a basic M1 killers (Which seems to be what rework means to theses devs) and gave him worse versions of other killer's powers.
On paper his kit seems good but depending on the numbers they choose could make him either op or worse than he is right now, and judging by how they ######### up Legion's "rework"...i'm going to guess that they are going to ######### Freddy's numbers as well.
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Actually, I mentioned it in the downsides point number #3. That downside hurts Freddy the most in endgame because it completely prevents him from using his old tactics of sleep everyone, then whip out NOED + Blood Warden + Remember Me.
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I really wish they kept some action speed penalty and some aura readings, but not to the extent Freddy is now. There should be more pressure into getting out of the dream state, because sooner or later, people are going to learn how to deal with the lullaby, and Freddy won't be so powerful unless he has the action speed and aura reading add ons.
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Yep, my conclusion exactly. If the dream snares aren't just outrageously good, he's going to be worse than Clown who can slow on demand without setup, and still beats a limited teleport.
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Wait. Did they change his terror radius?
Also from the animation we saw it doesn't look like the telegraph happens at the start of the channel. Or in otherwords even if it's a 5 seconds channel that does NOT mean it's a 5 second head start for a surv at the gen.
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Yes, now when you are awake, you hear the normal music, but when asleep, you hear the lullaby so it's (a little) harder to last in chases with him.
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They said the snares will only be available with addons.
Isn't that a joke? Addon dependant killers suck anyway. Imagine having to use addons to obtain the corrupt purge or pig's traps for example.
The "new" freddy only has a gen teleport (which is kinda meh because it doesn't help you in a chase) and the "doctor pallets". That's it. Boring and it won't help in a chase.
The snares could help but since they are addon dependant it sucks. Make it default then he might be playable.
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Right? And I wish they kept more pressure to getting out of dream state like keep the aura reading. And maybe action speed penalty but to a lesser degree.
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Couple things here:
1) Snares are the default, not an add-on.
2) Dream pallets are different from doctor pallets. Doctor pallets vanish when you get close. Dream pallets will not. They appear just like a regular pallet. A survivor could end up looping a dream pallet without knowing it's a dream pallet, giving you an easy hit when they throw it down and realize it's fake.
Again, not to beat a dead horse, but this is why speculation this early on is not a good idea.
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Please just don't make Freddy a add-ons reliant killer
Killers like Billy, Nurses, what makes them good is that they are already decent without addons
Some killers are unplayable/ weak without addons
some become balanced with good addons, but u will eventually run out of addons
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I'm optimistic but having his power tied to generators with how fast generators are getting done makes me worry.
Will he be able to teleport to completed gens so he's not powerless in the end game? who knows.
I think it's best to save judgement till the PTB since we know very little on the actual ins and outs of his powers.
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Like Legion, I have to use decreased cooldown time on him in order to chain attack (and lasting longer too) add ons.
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The problem is that I can't help but be worried after the freddy nerfs, doctor nerfs, legion nerfs, and Ghostface... whatever Ghostface is that y'all have done in the last half year.
Y'all nerfed Freddy and Doctor, Doctor specifically being a major concern for me because you reversed a major buff you gave him during his rework specifically to make him viable, in order to buff Borrowed Time and keep Legion bad. Then y'all's Legion rework is............ Please take another crack at that one at some point.
And then Ghostface ptb was not productive, even if y'all are fixing him now. A lot of people were able to predict a lot of those problems via speculation ahead of time too, so it's not like speculation was completely wrong in the most recent case... And I'm deliberately leaving out the details about the fact that I think 8 of the other current 14 killers need another balance pass on top of Freddy.
I'm just saying it's hard not to speculate and be concerned. It may not be helpful, but it's still an interesting discussion to have for me personally.
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@Ember_Hunter No I mean the size. Someone mentioned it being 32 meters instead of 24 now. Was this confirmed?
@Peanits ?
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@Peanits I wish you guys wouldn’t try to cater things to newer players. The game should be confusing for new players at first. That’s one of the things that’s scary. Any other game is willing to give their players a challenge with deep mechanics that they have to learn to overcome. All of these direct counters and handholding mechanics for new survivors is almost an insult to our intelligence. We can learn, adapt, and overcome challenges as survivors. If a complex mechanic needs explaining then that’s what the tutorial section is there for! Please make Freddy strong.
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You know as of late, it seems that the community knows more about balance than what the devs know. I mean, this is coming from the same people who destroyed Freddy in the first place and left him like that for about 2 years with no changes not even minor ones. Than, you go after Legion, now he is ok but that's debatable. Then now we have Jokeface, yea we shouldn't jump into conclusions. We aren't the ones playing the game anyway. If it wasn't for our voices, Jokeface would be utter F- tier. So us voicing how we feel before implementation is justifiable by judging Bhvrs history on balance and changes on killers. Same devs who think 5 seconds with DS is ok even tho enduring will not counter it. All tho the same devs buffed the timer becuz of enduring. Same devs who thought MoM was a great idea. Many of us voiced our feedback before it getting released, and the same feedback got received when it got released. Yea, we shouldn't jump into conclusions. :)
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...which funnily enough answers my question
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Preach brother!
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Because a 24/28m terror radius killer with 4.6m/s movement speed is now suddenly anathema to the dev team!
32m terror radius I always thought was too big anyways. 28/28.5/29m just sounded more reasonable than giving everyone such an early indication of a killer's presence... Just nerf addons and perks around that baseline decrease.
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Take Make your choice, hook a Survivor near a gen and when he gets rescued you just play him like a Hag.
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That requires you to know in advance a survivors going for an unhook and factor in the 5-second channel... Otherwise, yeah... That's completely devastatingly effective.
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I'm sad jumpscare Freddy is going bye bye.
Red Paint brush + Monitor and Abuse + Lery's = Pooping your pants
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@tehshadowman33 you don't need Lery's lol. Unlike other stealth killers Freddy is 100% completely invisible and has no need for LoS blockers
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You have a zero terror radius with the build listed above. You can literally hit someone. Use your aura reading to wait for them to go self-care somewhere. Walk up behind them. Lunge and hit them before they even know you're there. :D
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I can't help but agree with OP. Between the information we've been given and BHVR's track record, I fully expect Freddy to go from "Bottom tier at a glance, Mid-tier once you learn him" to "Mid-tier at a glance, Bottom tier once you learn him," in a fashion similar to Clown.
From what we know right now, the Freddy Rework is just a worse version of Waterlogged Shoe Hag with a horribly telegraphed Generator teleport. Sleeping may be a passive function now, but there's very little downside to being asleep, no real threat unless he's already on you, and now there's yet another way to exit the dream world. 60 second passive timer before you can use your chase power. Yeah, that's going to be real stronk, move over PTB Ghostface and Bubba, we've got a new champion. I'd unironically rather keep having to put people to sleep manually, but having said sleep make an actual impact.
Gone is his unique playstyle, dead is his ability to actually control his mindgames. RIP the only stall killer that slowed the game down without relying on a limited resource. Sayonara to the most fun tracking killer with his ability to catch you out in deadzones and interrupt your pathing. Welcome to a worse Hag.
And, I do apologize if this comes across as crass, but if y'all didn't want the community to speculate, especially the Freddy mains that enjoy his current playstyle and were bound to scrutinize the rework, perhaps you should have held off on the reveal until things were a bit more finalized and a bit closer to PTB.
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Here's some facts that I haven't seen brought up or confirmed yet in this thread. These could of course be changed before the release, but this is information we have currently.
- The devs have confirmed on the Q&A stream that Freddy does not need to stop moving or even slow down to place his snares. He places them while moving at full speed, and they take 2 seconds to arm. He is meant to be able to use them during chase.
- You don't need to teleport to gens that people are on. While holding your power, you see the auras of gens you can teleport to (presumably all of them, even completed ones). If you want to get survivors off a gen asap, target that gen. If you want to cross the map and get in a chase, target the closest gen to it then walk at them, you'll still have the benefits of either the lullaby or micro-sleep as you approach.
- The Gen does not spurt blood for the entire duration. If you watch the stream footage at 1:19:50 on youtube, you can clearly see that the gen is only bleeding for 2 to 2.5 seconds at the end of the channel. This doesn't quite match what Stefan says during this, but it's well known that the devs don't always word things exactly how they work.
- This has been mentioned but there's still some confusion about it. Dream snares are his base ability, he doesn't need to use an addon to get them. He can swap his dream snares for dream pallets by using an addon.
- His terror radius will still affect you whether you are asleep or not, so bt will always work if he's in range. This is the same as how he works now. The terror radius still exists, you just cant hear it when the lullaby is playing.
Post edited by BlackMercury on3 -
I think your misunderstand what the op is saying. Imagine this, If you complete 3 generators on left side of a map and all the remaining generators are on right side, a survivor who is put to sleep can't wake up without a teammate. By adding objects, you are improving accessibility for a survivor to wake up. that is in fact the nerf.
For being licensed killer, Freddy is extremely famous so i doubt that new players are clueless about him power. He's also in DBD famous for being F-tier on every tier list in existences. But even if a new player had no clue about what sleep does, the player should take their loss as learning experience like with every killer power. Suppose Pig puts a reverse trap on you and you walk out of exit with it armed, when you die, you should reflect to see why did that happen and perhaps, you should as a new player considering reading up on the killers power. so this entire new player argument seems like a very flawed. Don't take this as "git good" but more of be an informed player.
On the final point, I don't think a change with terror radius is enough of discouragement for a player to wake up. terror radius is more of an alarm cloak, as long as you hear it. it doesn't matter what it sounds like but the survivor is alert. The fact that you will mostly likely need purple or pink add-on for sleep to do anything is already very concerning for the killer and as op has said, generator teleport seems very limited as described in the stream. He's losing aura reading and free stalling potential in this rework, so those fake pallets, traps and generator teleport better be worth it but very unlikely.
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It is premature to jump to conclusions at this point. They could make any number of changes before this goes live. Maybe the channel time will be shortened, maybe there will be add ons that shorten the channel time, maybe after playing with it you realize it isn't as bad as you thought.
I do have one suggestion though. I would like it if when Freddy teleports to a gen, that it auto kicks the gen.
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Any word on whether the blood spout from the charging gen teleport will be for the full time it takes to channel, or just a few seconds at the end? It's fine if you also can't confirm that.
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