The Cannibal Rework Concept (Updated)
Introduction
I'm Leatherbilly, and I have 1,000 hours on Dead By Daylight; since virtually the beginning, I've mained the Cannibal. I am the owner of the Basement Discord for Leatherface mains, and I have the extensive experience necessary to elucidate the problems with this killer's performance.
Leatherface is an incredibly predictable killer as well as in impotent one; if he revs up, he can't catch up to you, and you can simply continue to loop him with impunity, even around simple large props with no pallets. He can't really get a diversity in threat, considering he's a human with a chainsaw, constraining his design space.
The solution I came up with is to keep survivors off-guard about specifically which build he is utilizing; instant revving? Movement speed? Pure pallet breaking utility? By introducing ambiguity to where his power lies in a given trial, perfectly optimal play becomes less possible, particularly if he does not tunnel one survivor. Importantly, this will NOT substantially affect low tier play, the one place Leatherface isn't under-performing, as they scarcely exploit his design's holes regardless.
Furthermore, a handful of baseline buffs facilitate the use of his chainsaw in such a way that he is not permanently outrun, and the frustrating and often glitchy Tantrum mechanic has been polished into a more source-material-friendly design. Instant rev-downs facilitate mind games which will again not impact lower level play, concentrating the buffs to higher level play where it's most needed.
Finally, his add-ons have been standardized to the conventions that BHVR has established with recent rework to promote a seamless integration into the game.
BASELINE CHANGES:
- Revving down the chainsaw (cancelling the charge-up) is now nearly instant
- Slightly increases the Chainsaw's movement speed
- The Cannibal no longer tantrums from touching a wall; instead, he tantrums at the end of his Chainsaw attack if he fails to hit a valid target (At least one survivor or pallet)
ADD-ON CHANGES
COMMON
Spark Plug: (Unchanged)
Worn Switch: An old tree branch used for violent reprimand. Slightly increases the Chainsaw's movement speed. Slightly increases the Chainsaw's charge time.
Chainsaw File: Slightly reduces the noise made by the Chainsaw. Slightly reduces the Cannibal’s terror radius.
Speed Limiter: Chainsaw does not automatically trigger the Dying State. Chainsaw attacks apply Deep Wounds. Get 50 % more Bloodpoints for Chainsaw Score Events in the Deviousness Category.
UNCOMMON
Primer Bulb: (Unchanged)
Knife Scratches: Slightly increases the Chainsaw's movement speed. Slightly increases the Chainsaw's charge time. Moderately increases acceleration when using the Chainsaw.
Homemade Muffler: Moderately reduces the noise made by the Chainsaw. Moderately reduces the Cannibal’s terror radius.
Long Guide Bar: (Unchanged)
Grisly Chains: The effect’s timer does not begin counting down until the survivor is unhooked/recovers from slugging.
RARE
Light Chassis: Moderately increases revving movement speed. Stacks.
Chili: Slightly increases the Chainsaw duration (One additional swing).
Beast’s Marks: Moderately increases the Chainsaw's movement speed. Slightly increases the Chainsaw's charge time. Considerably increases acceleration when using the Chainsaw.
Rusted Chains: The effect’s timer does not begin counting down until the survivor is unhooked/recovers from slugging.
Carburetor Tuning Guide: Moderately decreases the Chainsaw's charge time. Slightly reduces the noise made by the Chainsaw. Slightly reduces the Cannibal’s terror radius.
VERY RARE
Award-Winning Chili: Moderately increases the Chainsaw duration (Two additional swings).
Decompression Valve: This valve releases saw compression and allows for an easier start-up. Slightly decreases the Chainsaw's charge time. Moderately increases revving movement speed.
Two-Cycle Engine: A simpler, lighter and more powerful engine than the cumbersome and complex four-cycle engine, prioritizing performance over fuel efficiency. Considerably decreases the Chainsaw's charge time. Slightly decreases the Chainsaw duration (One less swing).
Begrimed Chains: The effect’s timer does not begin counting down until the survivor is unhooked/recovers from slugging.
Short Guide Bar: Lightens and improves the handling of the chainsaw. Slightly reduces the reach of the Chainsaw attack. Considerably increases revving movement speed. Slightly decreases the Chainsaw's charge time. Stacks.
ULTRA RARE
Full Chisel Chains: Square-cornered teeth allow for the more efficient cutting of “wood.” Hitting a survivor will reset the chainsaw attack duration. Slightly decreases revving movement speed. Slightly increases the Chainsaw's charge time.
Demolition Chains: A carbide-tipped demolition chain, durable under extended use for the destruction of “buildings.” Destroying a pallet with the Chainsaw will reset the chainsaw attack duration instead of ending it. Slightly decreases revving movement speed. Slightly increases the Chainsaw's charge time. (Whenever Leatherface resets his power, he must re-accelerate from his minimum speed.)
Comments
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This just sounds like a slight buff, not reading addons since I look at killers generally without addons. The idea for the tantrum sounds nice but a nerf because the survivors will get away faster if they manage to survive.
5 -
That's the point, if you get outplayed they get away. Current Tantrum is intended to do this, but the reality is it discourages you from hugging the wall too closely, making it harder to catch up.
It's also extraordinarily glitchy and frustrating.
16 -
Not to mention a slight movement speed buff is ostensibly minuscule but it would be the best option to ship to the PTB because over-buffing the Cannibal isn't the goal here.
It'd do substantially more than you may think considering it would allow him to actually catch up now.
5 -
Pretty reasonable suggestions. The things I would like changed about Leatherface are as follows:
- If a survivor drops a pallet within 3 meters of Leatherface without stunning him, Leatherface's chainsaw charge time is drastically reduced for 3 seconds. The idea being to give Leatherface an innate brutal strength to help in chases and punish survivor misplays.
- Increase chainsaw performance with each generator finished.
3 -
A few builds are possible with my rework that allows for an insane rev speed to break pallets rapidly if that's all you want your saw to do.
0 -
What an articulate, concise and cogent argument, eloquently rebutting all of my talking points.
Well done sir for also showing you're not a partisan hack by politely arguing that absolutely NO ONE wants Leatherface to be viable, tacitly admitting that he's currently unusably weak in the process. Well done indeed.
20 -
I think his base revving movement speed should be slightly increased so that way you don’t have to worry about having to be kind of close to Survivors to use it. Right now, you can lose a lot of distance depending on when you rev your saw.
Aside from that, these are some really good suggestions for buffing Leatherface. I hope BHVR sees this.
4 -
It always amazes me when someone assumes that since they don’t like a character, obviously no one else does/can either. Very cool. Also, their profile picture is Rancor, so they probably main Spirit and don’t understand the struggle of weaker killers like LF, Doctor, Pig, etc.
Good ideas on LF btw, we can only hope he’s the next killer to be reworked after Freddy.
1 -
The one and only issue people would like to hear is how this removes or reduces his camping power
If you cannot solve this issue, a large portion of people will not approve of a buff towards him, as his power in itself leads to THE most un-fun kind of gameplay in Dead By Daylight.
2 -
Oh wow! I love this idea of Leatherface rework. I like the baseline changes and his updated add-ons. I like the slient chainsaws, but Speed Limiter needs more bloodpoints like 100%
5 -
Kind of damned if I do and damned if I don't, because every LF main under the sun wants to keep multi instant downs despite its utter lack of practicality against survivors with a brain.
Past reworks I've proposed removed multi instant downs, but seeming as you can camp with equal efficacy as the Hillbilly by just holding your chainsaw up, I don't see it as particularly necessary anymore.
1 -
@Leatherbilly His multi-downs is what makes him unique. Keep it. If some survivors want to test their luck against it at End Game with an unhook, I say let them try. I agree with every buff. Right now, you're better off camping with him than actually chasing someone with him because using his chainsaw around ANYTHING is just horrible. One mistake and its over. Billy does everything better. With these type of buffs, you might actually see some Leatherface competition instead of the same trio of power. (Edit: I dislike the Tantrum at the end. It should happen immediately just like in the movie or it would just screw him)
2 -
Glad to hear! This rework definitely wouldn't make him overtuned but it'd definitely facilitate both viability and alternative playstyles.
I'm honestly surprised at how many people are enthusiastic about Leatherface, he's consistently voted as the least popular Killer and he's a pretty rare sight in-game. Really glad to see the love for what is many peoples' favorite killer and favorite slasher icon.
4 -
@Leatherbilly I do believe the main reason people camp with him is because his chainsaw is almost useless during a real chase. No smart survivor is gonna go out in the open too many times against him at high ranks. He's punished too much for actually using it but as a camper, it's perfectly balanced. Having the ability to use it in a chase would be fantastic and reduce the need for camping with him. If someone complains about it, at least he doesn't have the sprint speed Billy has to cover a lot of ground quickly, so in that regard, he's quite balanced on his own.
1 -
Typical low rank survivor main. Fun Fact: In the lore, Leatherface isn't taken by the Entity. It's almost like they were given the licensed too make a killer and a story on how they got here. Another fun fact: they are KILLERS, not door mats. They are suppose too be threats in the game. No one want's too keep playing 3-4 killers at high ranks when the game's got 16 of them. You need too play more Killer and then you'll understand why he needs buffs.
5 -
This would be amazing. IDK if it would work in game as well as we think, but this is a great on paper, and can still be great if it needs tweaking. Only thing I would change is make the Quiet addons not affect Terror Radius. Last thing we need is a stealthy insta down killer.
2 -
@BunnyTheHutt Quiet add-ons? You mean muffler and such? If that is what you are referring to, it doesn't affect the terror radius. It only affects the chainsaw noise, like the revving and the actual motion of it.
0 -
Cool man but devs aint gonna change nothin without there "meetings" which any buffs get vetoed immediately and nerfs pass easily
3 -
You mis read the post my dude, the change would affect his terror radius.
1 -
The entire point of what I was suggesting was to make breaking pallets with Leatherface's chainsaw the default preferable way. You can already use add ons to make the charge speed quite fast. I don't think breaking pallets with the chainsaw should be add on dependent. And obviously that isn't "all I want my saw to do".
0 -
@BunnyTheHutt I didn't read the muffler one because I saw reduced noise like the original version and skipped it after that. I think just reducing the noise is fine. He wouldn't benefit from a lower terror radius. It would just make him more likely to camp. (Edit: I also do not believe anyone wants a 8 meter terror radius Leatherface up your ass while you're on a gen without knowing it for a 1 shot down XD I can hear it now. "You came to the wrong gen, motherf*****!" XD)
2 -
I hope the devs see this post dude. I did a couple of them too suggesting changes for our beloved bubbaboi. I'm a LF main since 1 year ago too. Btw how can I join that discord server? uwu
2 -
I'd like LF to get a unique ability with this rework, so I'll spit out an idea for you to explore.
LF will get an Overcharge ability that he can use during his chainsaw swing.
When he uses Overcharge, it will reset his chainsaw swing timer. This means if you're about to stop swinging your chainsaw, use this to keep swinging your chainsaw and catch some unsuspecting survivors!
Finally, Overcharge will allow LF to completely destroy vaults until his chainsaw swing ends. Destroying a vault will interrupt his chainsaw swing, just like a pallet does.
1 -
And just like that, leatherface is fixed.
At least a hell of a lot better than his current state anyway
2 -
Reduced chainsaw noise is completely pointless on its own.
0 -
Interesting, but what would be the downside too using it? also, if you get stunned by destroying a vault, and it's repaired when the swings end, why even bother hitting the vault?
2 -
@Leatherbilly Yes but I also don't want Leatherface having a 8 meter terror radius with perks and add-ons. I want him to be known as a feirce chaser, not a camper anymore. Muffler can do something else but the terror radius.
0 -
It wouldn't be for camping, but if the concensus is no TR reduction LF, then remove the noise reduction line of add-ons entirely. They're completely pointless and facilitate no new, interesting play styles.
1 -
All cool but I still think that Leatherface should get stunned from walls only, his chainsaw movement speed should be 120% or 125% and his revving movement speed should be 90% or 95%.
0 -
These changes just sound weak and still won't make him a threat. All this isn't even needed
1. No slowdown on rev or rev cancel
2. Baseline green scratch marks
0 -
Wall tantrums are something I want gone for two reasons.
Firstly and most importantly, it's counter-intuitive to his intended design; his primary advantage over HB is that he has control over his chainsaw but sacrifices map pressure and mobility. Wall tantrums prevent Leatherface from wall hugging to catch up to survivors, artificially lowering his movement speed whenever a survivor loops an object, even if it isn't a pallet loop, such that he can't catch up without speed add-ons. LF is intended to chase around props in a way HB cannot, but he is inhibited by the tantrum in its current iteration.
This issue is compounded by the second issue, glitchy hitboxes, that would take entirely too much effort to fix. Tantrum is intended to punish you for mistakes to reward survivors for playing well, but right now it just punishes you at random intervals due to bugged hitboxes.
3 -
The vault is gone, it's not coming back. This means if a survivor loops the shack, and you use Overcharge on the shack window. That just made the shack pallet into a unsafe pallet, and it saves more time for LF.
The downside to using Overcharge is that it's on a short cool-down timer 30 seconds, and it slightly increases your tantrum duration per use (by 5%).
1 -
I honestly doubt BHVR wants to radically change his power, both because it's consistent with the source material and because it'd take much more in the way of resources.
I'd love to hear BHVR on the prospect of a dramatic power change, I'm curious if that's the way the winds are blowing.
2 -
Then no, that would be way too broken. This would be way too powerful an ability, and doesn't really even fit the Character. I mean, Why even bother with the Tantrum increase when you can put on Light Chassis and just break important vaults like killer shack?
0 -
That is okay if you disagree. I also had a backup idea in case my vault idea was OP.
Basically, LF can use his Chainsaw on weak, destructible walls to surprise survivors while in a chase. When LF destroys a wall, he immediately enters a tantrum, but it has a tremendously bigger AoE hit box. This means, if you perfectly time your wall break, you'll down the survivor. Walls destroyed by LF will be repaired by the Entity after 120 seconds (add-ons can speed this up).
Counter play? Survivors can see damaged walls if they pay attention, and prepare for him to use it against them. Through, they can see damaged walls, they won't be able to see damaged walls while in a chase because of all the chaos within the chase.
1 -
@Peanits I like this idea and so do a lot of others. What do you think of the changes?
0 -
I think they are good changes, but Leatherface needs an "update" not slight changes.
0 -
I think they are good changes, but Leatherface needs an "update" not slight changes.
0 -
These are all excellent suggestions. Glad to see the community manager sharing this with the dev team.
2 -
The ultras were largely meant to be memes, if they need to be nerfed that's completely fine, they're not really the draw to the rework, the base changes and a couple add-on changes are what facilitates viability here.
I can't thank you enough for dropping in and sharing the ideas! I know Leatherface is on your radar, if there's literally anything we can do to help test the rework at any point or contribute more ideas, please let us know. We're all ecstatic our favorite killer is getting attention!
7 -
The green baseline add-on would be substantially more powerful than people think it would be. Imagine that with both speed add-ons stacked together.
1 -
I just wished they would have done the same about my ideas on legion
1 -
Sorry to hear. I know LF is one of the next few killers to be getting work.
1 -
The only problem I have with the first half (I dont know much about the addons so I skipped that) is that if you change the charge up to catch up to survivors that makes the point of a charge up useless.
Nurse has a charge up for blinks.
Hillbilly has a charge up and is stopped by all objects like a chainsaw realistically would be.
As a survivor main I know that the hardest of those three killers to dodge is LF because you cant just turn and dodge.
The charge up could be shorter but if you do too much it's practically promising an instant down. Make him more powerful but still avoidable.
0 -
Currently the more you go up the ranks, the more Billy gets better than Bubba even at a melee range at hitting his instadown.
Bubba's instadown is actually hard to hit survivors that don't mess up currently.
These are the best changes proposed for Bubba I've ever seen. The only problem I have with them is that imo it's impossible to create a viable killer at all levels without some form of map pressure but oh well, what can you do. You can't give all killers map mobility. Systemic game changes need to happen to fix that.
I'd love to play Bubba with a base kit like that, it sounds fun and enough to push him out of meme tier.
2 -
What an incredibly well thought out rework of add-ons. I like it a lot actually.
I still (due to personal bias) like my own idea of a "bouncing bubba" who gains speed, time and angular momentum when hitting a wall rather then his tantrum, but I feel my idea could work more as an "add-on" for your idea.
Also how much do you think his terror radius should be decreased by with the two noise add-ons? I'd like to see a similar small buff to Hill billy actually. Plus it would make stealth builds with M and a very viable on leatherface.
0 -
Sorry this got buried in notifications and I didn't see your question lmao. The text itself is hyperlinked.
1 -
I love this as a proud Leatherface main! I hope they will update his add ons, or buff him. <3
1 -
I'm curious to know when the ETA is on LF's rework.
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