ScottJund's ideas on how to improve the game (video)
Comments
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I like his idea of 100 second gens with longer hook states a lot.
I already prefer to leave hooks 100% alone and just go for 3 separate hooks per person.
Longer games + camping dead
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I like this video.
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I can agree with the majority of the proposals in the video. I really like the Doctor suggestion proposed where the longer you hold it the longer the shock is.
Regarding extending hook and generator times his reasoning was solid although doing generators is boring enough as it is. Not sure if I'd be a fan of such a change. Overall though good proposals and very well explained with solid reasoning on all fronts. I wouldn't mind seeing some of the proposed changes in the PTB.
Edit ---
Figured it would probably be a better idea to elaborate on what I disagreed with
Clown - I don't agree with him getting a massive bonus for direct bottle hits because you can just cheese this. A good example is if you're using the Ultra-Rare you can resort to throwing a bottle at a survivor to slow them and then throw another to land an easier hit to get that guaranteed exposed hit. It's not completely reliable to do this but I feel as though this is something that anyone could do. Maybe I've just played too much Clown where hitting bottles directly isn't an issue and I'm biased. I do agree that Clown could use some quality of life changes and some buffs but I don't agree with this. This is mostly regarding the "No faster running on hit" suggestion though.
Plague - I don't agree with completely disabling survivors ability to do generators while sick. I agree there should be a better incentive to cleanse but this feels like it would be too much because it takes away a survivors choice. Do I work on generators while injured or do I cleanse giving the killer a ranged attack that poses a decent threat? I could probably be convinced this wouldn't be a big deal but I never really cared for Plague's power in general.
I'm on the fence about Trapper proposals but truthfully I'd be fine with Trapper just having his default capacity increased and maybe start with 2 Traps by default.
For the most part I agree with everything else though.
Post edited by Dustin on3 -
I dunno. I feel he's proposed things that are far too simple and just props up issues rather than outright fixing them. I get the rationale of of going that simple to put things out there that have what one assumes is the highest success rate of being implemented. Yet, going that small scale doesn't fill like problems are getting solved as much as it feels like we'll just get more of the same with band-aid fixes that after another year will still see the game not evolving.
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Jund has a massive brain
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i don't see how any of the changes he proposes in the video are band-aid fixes. changes to specific maps to make them less abusable isn't a band-aid fix, it addresses specific problems in specific scenarios and yet is not a complicated solution. agree or disagree with them, but they address issues as they come up in this game far more than ######### like bloodlust ever did
anyway, the only glaring flaw i see in the video is the plague's proposed change. while i agree that there needs to be more incentive to cleanse i also think her corrupt power is way too strong for her to just be getting it because survivors literally cannot function while sick (puking and retching are common while sick, so doing generators will be absolutely horrible if those things interrupt actions). on top of that, a big issue with cleansing against plague is that you'll often get sick again through some means or another; you need to unhook a sick survivor, a sick survivor gets on a generator with you, the plague finds you shortly after cleansing, etc. i think a combination of a buff to vile purge/nerf to corrupt purge is the way to go to make plague a more engaging killer to play, but i don't have any specific ideas for how that could be done
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Pig needs a buff so freaking bad.
She used to be a great endgame killer but that was slaughtered with nothing to compensate.
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I really like a lot of these ideas. c:
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Just pinging you people since he has some really good idea and as a long-time positive influencer for the game.
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He identified the problems well and I agree with some of his suggestions for improvement. Just a few things, since writing about every point would take too long:
Imho it would be helpful if Nurse's and Hillbilly's add-ons wouldn't stack. No Omega-Blink, no insta-saw.
Huntress should get her 115% speed when she has no hatchets left, yes. She shouldn't have to abandon chases because she runs out of hatchets. Giving her +1% speed per missing hatchet is a bit much. And yes, some maps are too large.
Increasing gen time: It solves a problem in theory. The issue is that repairing gens is not exciting, that's why we are talking here so often about adding a 2nd objective instead of increasing repair time. (If a 2nd objective would take to long balance-wise, the current gen time of 80s could get decreased.)
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It will probably be years before these changes get implemented lol.
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Even though I'd personally prefer some sort of secondary objective that has to be the best idea involving longer gen times I've seen. Just all-around extent average game time while not making legitimately mindlessly camping (the sort where the only thing survivors can possibly do is hit gens) a more time-efficient strategy.
I think a lot of the killer changes would be fine even with just those simple map changes too. I especially like the idea that Wraith should have windstorm at base, let him be speedy.
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@oxygen It's a given that if a 2nd objective would get implemented, the hook phase time would have to get increased as well. Otherwise camping would become a good strategy.
And I agree with you, I'd prefer to see a 2nd objective over increasing gen time.
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His Doctor ideas are pretty interesting. Heck, all of his Killer changes seem interesting.
I love the suggestion for fixing Haddonfield. That map is horrible for any Killer not named Nurse or Spirit with really good add-ons (maybe Hag if you bring the right add-ons).
If the hook states take 30 seconds longer, then struggling needs to change from mashing a button to stay alive to pressing a button to stop struggling. I don't want to be mashing one button for 90 seconds straight. However, I would still prefer secondary objectives over increasing the gen repair times and hook state duration.
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Are we seriously gonna ignore the Legion still? Like what was the point of making them, if they're so hated that much?
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Yeah bruh..... legion is the accident child
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This would kill balance and it wouldn't kill camping.
Camping exists, because killers benefit from it.
Devs should balance the game, so killers don't get a mental breakdown for playing the game and then they wouldnt need to camp.
Gens are the current problem.
It's too easy for survivors to finish all of them in a short time, forcing killers to camp/tunnel etc.
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The one thing that I am confused with is his proposal for Leatherface changes. Can someone ELI5 to me how this would improve Bubba?
Beyond that, I think I like the majority of these changes?
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I think the reasoning is to at least make him as effective as Billy up close, because he manages to be worse up close and have no pressure at the same time.
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@Ihatelife didn't he say at the end of the video that he the fixes he sees being possible with Legion are "too much to fit here" or something?
And I definitely agree, there's not an easy fix for Legion.
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I personally think certain things need to be trimmed from this game. Remove NOED, Mori offerings (rework Mori conditions, maybe last survivor alive is always Mori-able), Adrenaline, Instaheals, and Brand New Parts. So much of the frustration players feel comes from being "outplayed" by the loadout screen. All of those things just feel cheap, unearned, and are super frustrating to be on the wrong end of.
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Aside from his idea of increasing gen times (which would have the main effect of increasing survivor's boredom), I agree with all his suggestions.
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One caveat with the gen time suggestion: we need to keep in mind that yellow rank gameplay and red rank gameplay are two different games. It's apples and oranges. 100 second repairs wouldn't be a problem to implement for red ranks. It would go a long way to balance red rank gameplay. However, it would basically guarantee a killer 4k at yellow ranks because of how inefficient survivors are with resources and objectives at those ranks. There's a reason I hate rank reset as a survivor. I'm decent but I don't play that often, so I get to rank 5ish then get dropped back to immersion world. Imagine those players with 100 second gens.
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Eh, okay. I guess that is a step in the right direction.
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Yeah, I think that is the one suggestion I'm a little sketchy on for this reason. You definitely have complaints that playing Survivor can be boring, and raising the gen time would risk amplifying those complaints. Maybe if they found some way to make working on Generators more interactive, the gen time increase could be more palatable.
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I didn't watch the part about maps, but most of his ideas for killer changes are good.
However I disagree with him on some points, specifically Spirit and Pig. While it sucks for Pig that people can get traps off on the first try, that's just part of her kit. If it was ALWAYS the case where you never get it off the first box well that can screw you over sometimes, particularly if she uses Amanda's Letter and there are only 2 boxes. I think they should just increase the base time to search and adjust the way traps work during end game to make her more like she was prior to EGC update. As for Spirit, well collision can both help and hurt her. It helps because it's obviously a bit easier to find survivors, but it also can hurt in cases where you want a particular survivor and others body block your phasing. Here is a good example...
In the clip we are a 4 man. We decide to just yolo at the hook, and then after the save we attempt to body block her so she can't get Dwight. She still slips past us, but I'm willing to bet we made enough obstacles for her to slow her down just enough that she couldn't get him before he got to the gate. If there was no collision she could just phase through us and there's no chance for the Dwight. It's also something you can use to your advantage as survivor, since you can hover around a pallet and when you feel collision you drop the pallet and stun her out of phase walk. I honestly don't think Spirit needs any changes.
For Nurse, but I do agree that she should have 2 blinks and only 2 blinks. IMO those add-ons should be changed to increase her base speed instead, which would be strong but not completely OP if the limit is something like 108% speed. Range add-ons should have an actual penalty, like longer fatigue time or longer charge time (such that the extra distance you want to travel is that extra time to charge).
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I know the feeling. I thought equipping Kindred would prevent it from happening. I was mistaken.
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Amanda's Letter should not even have the penalties that it does, so those should be removed alongside the proposed change. Beyond that, the last-box issue is not really an issue except on huge maps (which, to clarify since you didn't watch the bit about maps, he proposes shrinking anyways). If people can get the traps off on time after searching all the boxes now, then that would not be negatively impacted by making the key never spawn in the first box. It it worth it IMO to prevent the blow-outs that can happen when Pig's stall pressure gets thrown out the window because of bad RNG.
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But if you have to search 1 box and that box NEVERS opens your trap, it's not RNG. That's what's dumb about it. For every time that a survivor searches 1 box and removes a trap, there is another time where a survivor has to search all 4 boxes. You're just artificially making it so they have to always search 2 boxes, which is just silly. Increase the base search time (adjust add-ons accordingly) and maybe make skill checks on boxes harder/greater penalty that would be just fine. It's just dumb to force them to search 2 boxes every time, no other way to say it.
And I also disagree with him about Huntress. Giving her a movement speed buff was something I thought would be a good idea a while ago, but have since come to realize that would make her way OP. Imagine a Huntress with 1 hatchet chasing at 114% speed. It'd be a guaranteed win for her. I think a better solution would be to make her lullaby only trigger when a survivor is within 40m, basically giving her Whispers 2 in her base kit. This would allow Huntress players to play without Whispers and mix up her meta a bit more. Also Shiny Pin should be base kit, and that add-on should do something else (what IDK). Those 2 changes would make her a lot more viable without actually flat out making her a stronger killer, which she is already pretty strong.
Like I can respect Scott for his experience and knowledge of the game, but that doesn't automatically mean his solutions are good. Top players like him are good at identifying the issues, not so much as solving them. The devs should listen to him to the extent that he is right stuff needs fixing, but they need to find their own solutions. What sounds good on paper does not always work right in practice, and vice versa.
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"But if you have to search 1 box and that box NEVERS opens your trap, it's not RNG. That's what's dumb about it."
What makes that dumb? That sounds like a good thing.
"You're just artificially making it so they have to always search 2 boxes, which is just silly."
But that is exactly the point with the proposed change: Making it so you HAVE to search at least two boxes to ensure that some amount of time is wasted. Less variance in RNG is good for the Pig.
" Increase the base search time (adjust add-ons accordingly) and maybe make skill checks on boxes harder/greater penalty that would be just fine."
That would only hurt Survivors who are getting unlucky while doing almost nothing to mitigate the bad luck on the Pig's side. That only raises the variance.
"It's just dumb to force them to search 2 boxes every time, no other way to say it."
Disagree. I'd want either that or RSN2 being base kit. Both would assist the Pig in an area she needs help in.
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In the case of Pig, it's almost everytime the first or the last one I need to search lol
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His ideas is great i really like the huntress and nurse one mostly.
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I agree with you on spirit @thesuicidefox ..... Scott's idea is interesting but I think it could potentially be a buff to her, yeah she wont be able to feel a survivor and get a yoink with prayer beeds as easily but shes about as perfect as you can get a killer in this game atm
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Pretty good suggestions all round.
I especially like his proposed changes to the killers but judging by how long it actually takes Killers to get updates at the moment, no matter how small the changes might be it'll take months which is a shame.
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Who?
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Mother of God, someone who understands the game, camping killers because the game is VERY UNBALANCED, the killers can not have fun in their games, because most games last like 5-6 minutes, if the survivors decide to repair, there is no fun , repair is very easy, this must be REVISED NOW!
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Great video!
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I mean, Survivors might be able to do the Gens that fast because the Killer is camping near the Hook applying exactly no Pressure on Gens.
But yeah, this would be absurd.
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"What makes that dumb? That sounds like a good thing.
But that is exactly the point with the proposed change: Making it so you HAVE to search at least two boxes to ensure that some amount of time is wasted. Less variance in RNG is good for the Pig."
So we remove RNG from the equation purely to the benefit of the killer? Why don't we make the adjustment on the far end of the equation and make it so it's always going to be the second or third box because it's unfair to survivors if they have to search all 4.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Pig's power is RNG based, doing anything to influence that makes it not RNG, and if it's only to the benefit of the killer that's unfair.
Yea it sucks when a survivor gets the trap off the first time, but like I said for every survivor that gets it off the first time there is another that has to search all 4 boxes. As killer you only notice the former and not the latter.
And then what about when we start messing with the RBT timer or number of boxes? Should the RNG still favor the killer, because all that would do is result in more kills from RBT, which the devs have stated they don't want because RBT is not meant to kill it's meant to be a new objective for survivors.
"That would only hurt Survivors who are getting unlucky while doing almost nothing to mitigate the bad luck on the Pig's side. That only raises the variance."
No increasing the base search time makes it so that, even if they get it off the first time, they are spending MORE time to do so. And then it increases the need to optimize your path if it just so happens that you need to do every box. That's ultimately what make gear add-ons so good, that they make survivors spend more time at boxes even if it's just 1 box.
You are asking for RNG to favor one side and punish the other. That's not RNG, that's a rigged system. One that's ultimately unfair to survivors. Like, you could totally abuse this by simply making sure someone never gets to search a box. Once you get to a certain point, it's a guaranteed RBT kill because they won't have time to search 2 boxes. That is dumb.
Honestly a better solution is to remove the stipulation that a gen needs to be complete for the RBT to activate, and it's just active when you put it on a survivor. They did this because they thought that strategy would be to not finish gens so you have more time to do the RBT, but survivors just do gens anyway so the whole fact that the timer doesn't start until a gen pops is moot. There really is no point to have it that way. Not to mention, it's really stupid sometimes when you down someone and right before you put the trap on a gen pops. That's like RNG on top of RNG and it ends up punishing the Pig.
Then, during EGC, if someone has an active RBT it both resets the EGC timer and pauses it, so that you will be forced to remove it before escaping like in the past, but it won't be super OP at end game.
All this is way more fair to survivors while still rewarding the Pig with a stalling mechanic. You get pressure no matter what, and survivors need to waste time on RBT no matter what.
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But it's boring. Noone wants to hold M1 longer and noone wants to sit on a hook doing nothing longer. Second objective is the best solution
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Yea the only thing I think you could do that would be fair to the Spirit player would be to add some sort of background sound effect or maybe an echo of some kind to sounds when she phase walks to that its a bit harder to track by sound. But then that's really where the skill in Spirit comes from, so IDK if that's really a good thing to do.
And while I can understand the point that "Spirit is very difficult to counter in a chase if you don't have Iron Will/Spine Chill", when you DO have these perks you will crush all but the absolute best Spirits. It's like night and day. Is it dumb you need perks to really counter play a killer? Yea, but then when those perks counter her so hard that she becomes a cake walk 95% of the time that's something you need to consider.
Like, I used to run Calm Spirit a lot because I hate Docs. Whenever I would get a Doc, it became literally one of the easiest games ever because the Doc could never find me. His power was completely worthless against me. He goes from damn near impossible to hide from to super EZ to hide from by just using a single perk.
And other perks hard counter other killers. Small Game and Dead Hard counter Trapper. Small Game and Urban Evasion counter Hag. Any aura perk, Spine Chill, or Prem counter GF/Wraith/Pig. You can't just look at the killer in a bubble and say "oh there is/is not enough counter play" and ignore the fact that perks exist in the game that will completely nullify a killer's power. Perkless is only a meme at high ranks, no one actually plays that way and therefore perks HAVE to be considered when talking killer counter play. Even Nurse, if you have Spine Chill, Iron Will, Dead Hard, and Urban Evasion you pretty much counter her and it will be very difficult for her to find and track you.
And yes, stealth is a counter play option because if a killer can never find you (or at the very least spend a lot of time looking for you) then you benefit. Yea, tracking perks exist but you can easily counter all of them except Whispers (which you can counter but it's way more difficult and requires a bit of team coordination). Like all you gotta do is bait a Nurse to come to an area with BBQ, then walk away. Most of the time she will waste time looking around for you which you can use to your advantage. Like, we can't say stealth isn't a counter play option just because the killer is super strong in a chase? What about the opposite... you can't stealth Doc (unless you have Calm Spirit) but he's not that great in a chase. Why is THAT okay but not the other way around? Both Nurse and Spirit are hurt by strong stealth plays, so to say that's not a valid counter play is just cherry picking. If you understand line of sight, killer's POV, and killer tracking perks you can stealth every killer that isn't Doc or Legion very easily.
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For example, I am a 100% legal killer, not camping or tunneling. There are some maps that prevent me from catching a survivor quickly, by design or organization, so, the survivors, their only objective is to repair, and as it is SO EASY, to hold M1 for 80 seconds (if they are 1, if there are several the engine is repaired in less than 60 seconds) so there is a rush while the maps are NOT balanced, there is some tool so that the survivors not only repair, you understand me, do not you? We've been 4 years ... how much time do we have to endure?
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Alternate pig buff with the same idea: The trap requires 2 keys to unlock.
This way they don't actually have to remove any rng from how her power works, but can still make its effects more consistent, because survivor's will never get it off with one box. It'd also feel better to the survivor, as they won't know ahead of time that the first box is empty, only that they'll have to search at least two.
This might change the odds to be sort of more likely that they'll have to search all boxes, since if they don't get a key in the first box, then they'll need to find them both in the next two or they'll have to search them all. If they wanted to offset that to keep the traps from being too dangerous, make finding the first key refresh a small portion of the timer.
This would also open up some more addon options, maybe addons that decrease the amount of timer refreshed, or make 3 keys have to be found, since some of her current addons are pretty lackluster.
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"So we remove RNG from the equation purely to the benefit of the killer? Why don't we make the adjustment on the far end of the equation and make it so it's always going to be the second or third box because it's unfair to survivors if they have to search all 4."
What makes it unfair for Survivors? Your proposed change makes it so hooking by Jigsaw Boxes is bad because they can get the first box out of the way super easily, and from there, there is a 50% chance that the time wasted is very minimal. That is not a good direction.
"No increasing the base search time makes it so that, even if they get it off the first time, they are spending MORE time to do so. And then it increases the need to optimize your path if it just so happens that you need to do every box. That's ultimately what make gear add-ons so good, that they make survivors spend more time at boxes even if it's just 1 box."
In the best case scenario where you just make Crate of Gears base kit (assuming you remove the actual Crate of Gears to compensate), you are only increasing the time wasted by 3 seconds if the trap is removed at the first box. What makes Gear add-ons good is that the ability gets progressively better with each box the Survivor has to search through. If they only have to search one box, Crate did very little for that Trap, and the Pig still lost a significant amount of stalling.
"You can't have your cake and eat it too. Pig's power is RNG based, doing anything to influence that makes it not RNG, and if it's only to the benefit of the killer that's unfair."
Do not agree. At all. A 33% chance to search in 2 boxes and a 66% chance to search 3 boxes is still RNG. This is fact.
"And then what about when we start messing with the RBT timer or number of boxes? Should the RNG still favor the killer, because all that would do is result in more kills from RBT, which the devs have stated they don't want because RBT is not meant to kill it's meant to be a new objective for survivors."
As long as the best case scenario (searching every box) is not unwinnable for the Survivors even with no input from the Pig, then this should not be an issue. If it was unwinnable, that would be a problem with the Pig fundamentally and something would have to be done to mitigate that regardless of whether or not anything else gets changed. If it is not a problem with the Pig now, I don't see how it would be a problem if the first box never produced a Key.
"Yea it sucks when a survivor gets the trap off the first time, but like I said for every survivor that gets it off the first time there is another that has to search all 4 boxes. As killer you only notice the former and not the latter."
The problem is that the low end hurts the Pig a lot more than the high end helps Pig (barring a Trap kill, which is both super rare and should not really be factored in). The low end means that the Pig lost a lot of stall potential while the high end means that one person gets temporarily knocked out of the game. The high end is not irrelevant, but only one of those scenarios can be flat-out game-losing.
"You are asking for RNG to favor one side and punish the other. That's not RNG, that's a rigged system. One that's ultimately unfair to survivors. Like, you could totally abuse this by simply making sure someone never gets to search a box. Once you get to a certain point, it's a guaranteed RBT kill because they won't have time to search 2 boxes. That is dumb."
Uh, no, it's still RNG. RNG more in favor of the Pig, yes, but still RNG. I do not agree that it is unfair to Survivors. And I believe that the needle needs to swing slightly more in the Pig's favor at least in the sense of mitigating the low end. Also, the situation you are describing is both extremely inefficient and not worth it for the Pig to attempt and still 75% (80% with 5 boxes, and 83.3% with 6) chance of working if you attempt it right not. It is silly to use such a bad strategy as a reason to argue that this is a bad suggestion.
"Honestly a better solution is to remove the stipulation that a gen needs to be complete for the RBT to activate, and it's just active when you put it on a survivor. They did this because they thought that strategy would be to not finish gens so you have more time to do the RBT, but survivors just do gens anyway so the whole fact that the timer doesn't start until a gen pops is moot. There really is no point to have it that way. Not to mention, it's really stupid sometimes when you down someone and right before you put the trap on a gen pops. That's like RNG on top of RNG and it ends up punishing the Pig."
That doesn't do much to improve Pig's stalling except in cases where the Survivor is ballsy enough to continue doing Gens with an inactive Trap on their head. In every other case, nothing is changed with regards to the Pig's stalling potential. I wouldn't say no to the idea persay, but it does not fix the Pig's problem in my eyes. If anything, all it does it promote more Trap kills, which is fixing the wrong area of the Pig.
"Then, during EGC, if someone has an active RBT it both resets the EGC timer and pauses it, so that you will be forced to remove it before escaping like in the past, but it won't be super OP at end game."
I've been on board with pausing the EGC timer for active traps since the nerf. I am not keen on resetting the timer, but to be honest, that is STILL a better proposition than the nerf that actually happened.
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"What makes it unfair for Survivors? Your proposed change makes it so hooking by Jigsaw Boxes is bad because they can get the first box out of the way super easily, and from there, there is a 50% chance that the time wasted is very minimal. That is not a good direction."
Don't hook near boxes then? Like that's pretty common sense. Or do and expect them to jump on it ASAP letting you come back and get another hook. The game shouldn't be balanced around you making mistakes.
"Uh, no, it's still RNG. "
If you artificially influence the outcome then no, it's not RNG. If I rig a deck of cards so that I always get an ace and 4 random other cards, that's not RNG. Your entire argument falls apart and I don't even need to address anything else.
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I've been in these forums for the longest time and I'm still waiting to see a constructive post of yours.
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