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I wasnt appealing to BHVR as an authority, I was pointing out that they’ve consistently aimed for 60/40 for years, which explains why they consider that their intended balance target.

I never argued bhvr must be right because they have data. I said they have stuck with 60/40 for years, which is why they consider that number balanced. Not that all their decisions are correct.

I wasnt being selective, you reframed my comment about why they chose 60/40 into an appeal to authority so you could argue I must accept all their balance decisions, which wasnt my position.

Three points, and I'll provide the quotes again:

The devs themselves have said that they aim for a 60/40 for balance on both sides. This is what they said. Theyve aimed for 60/40 for YEARS these are the people who have alllllll the data, and they've been sticking to their guns for YEARS. Im pretty sure theirs a GOOD reason why they are saying 60/40 is balanced after reviewing ALLLLLL their data for YEARS.

What in the F*** are survivors doing to pull almost 10% past the intended escape %??? the swfs in high lobbies are popping gens like popcorn. No way in the world should you be able to pop a gen in 24-26 seconds with 2 people AND have coms

1: No one disagrees or is unaware that BHVR has a target of 60% KR. The way you are arguing it is self-fulfilling, whatever BHVR says is the balance target, is balance.

2: To say you're just pointing out the numbers is not backed up by how you worded this. Let me focus in - Im pretty sure theirs a GOOD reason why they are saying 60/40 is balanced after reviewing ALLLLLL their data for YEARS.

You even put good in all caps. This is clearly worded not as just a factual reiteration, but arguing that they have info we don't leading them to the correct decision

3: Okay, for sake of argument, let's say all of the was just to establish the 60/40. Then the following sentence has no backing - What in the F*** are survivors doing to pull almost 10% past the intended escape %???

So if everything you said in the prior paragraph was just saying 'hey, these are the numbers BHVR is going for', then this next sentence just happens to be there and it has no support. Intended escape within this sentence only has some meaning or purpose if it is connect to the prior paragraph's argument. Basically, without arguing that BHVR's 'intended' is good (or GOOD), then its just irrelevant.

Let's go to the argument that we're just establishing context, which takes us to the territory that high MMR SWFs perform better, which brings me to:

There is, the quote was supporting evidence for my point about sfw gen speeds. You treated the quote like it was the argument instead of the point it was supporting.

Except it doesn't.

First, there's no connection at all. I could just as easily say - high MMR SWFs escape more, because they use Sprint Burst, Vigil and shift W gameplay. Or high MMR SWFs escape more, showing how powerful deliverance is. Or high MMR SWFs escape more, showing how powerful coordinated healing is. You're attaching your conclusion to an independent fact, that's not evidence.

Second, coordinated high MMR SWFs (a subset of a subset of the player base) have always escaped more. Through various metas they've always had the advantage, because they have access to things (coms, ensuring they don't have a weak member, pre-planned strategy, etc) that others don't.

—When this data came out, given all the advantages they have, what was surprising wasn't that they escaped more, but even with all of those advantages they still weren't even reaching 50%

The word isnt being used generically here, it’s being used in the dev quote where they say the 60% killer KR “falls in line with our intended Killer balance.” Changing the definition outside of that context doesn’t change what they meant in that statement.

They have a balance target. A goal they are going for. No one disagrees. Calling it just 'balance' without being BHVR's intended balance though is not accurate (see above on how the way you are using it is self-fulfilling).

Your looking at it wrong. Gen speed multipliers really benefit from coordination because survivors can stack efficiently, avoid wasted time, and turn the same chase time into more gen progress than youd get in a solo queue. Thats why its the bigger factor

I'm following the @FerrousFacade argument and I agree with him that I feel you're argument is changing on this issue as well, but I'll do my best to respond to this point.

What about gen speed multipliers are unique?

If survivors coordinate heals faster, they get back on gens more quickly.

If survivors bring perks for longer chases, it gives others times to be on gens.

If survivors know their teammates has deliverance, it gives them more times on gens.

Having gen focused perks still has the exact same weaknesses in a SWF than it does in soloq - you don't have any advantages if you get targeted by the killer or you need to heal/unhook someone.

So what can the gen focused build do in a SWF that they couldn't in a soloq? I guess they could crack a 3 gen right from the start, and that would be valuable. Though even without a full gen perk loadout they could still do that more easily than a soloq. And you could team up on the final gen more easily, but that's not too hard to coordinate in soloq, but it would be easier. The way DbD math works is that pairing up on gens is usually inferior to spreading out.

Could some of the perks be too strong? I guess, toolboxes currently seem the strongest item, and no one is arguing gen perks are bad. But what we have for evidence on full builds beyond a 'ask any':

1: SWFs I've seen trying escape streaks have not engaged in it, maybe there is one out there I'm unaware of

2: The community cup I mentioned with unrestricted survivors; increasing gen speed through items and perks was definitely part of the strategies, but not overwhelming (outside of toolboxes), and not nearly as important as anti-tunnel or exhaustion.

3: Even in this case we're limiting the argument to a small fraction of the player base, and its questionable how relevant that should be for a discussion of the overall game (or overall averages, to go back to a BHVR quote).

That isn't even remotely close to DS.

This is either satire or a fundamental misunderstanding of the game.

That is definitely…an idea.

Not a good one, but certainly one of the ideas of all time.

Somewhere along the line, a fundamental shift happened at BHVR. There used to be a rule that no phobias could be introduced into the game—which is why The Clown initially had gas grenades/military theme. But the most recent killer is the Houndmaster, and I have friends in real life that are seriously TERRIFIED of dogs more than someone could ever be scared of spiders.

It would be REALLY cool if a Spider killer had an ability to cocoon survivors like the Cage of Corruption, but instead of the survivor teleporting across the map, they would be teleported to the spider nest in the basement. The reason this could work is if the killer can only jump from object to object with a web — and when areas have been mapped — they can use the web to move around areas quickly like Houndmaster's Search trail.

A spider related or themed killer would be at the top of my wishlist too

He didnt do this for 8 months since release.

On another note it was nerfed to prevent players from hiding all round, which the new birds system was brought in to prevent afterwords, so there isnt much of a reason to avoid reverting the perk as something else is alredy preventing players from hiding all round now.

I just wanted to express my gratitude to those who partook in the grimoire and managed to bag us our first elderly woman survivor!

Nice to see that people do in fact want to expand the character roster and have different archetypes represented.

If you are ending chases in under 15 seconds, you really don't need to care about DS lol.

Getting a rehook with no counterplay is not even remotely close to DS.

There is not, and will not, ever be a Killer version of DS because Killer is a fundamentally different game than Survivor. There are very few directly equivalent perks.

What do you think "second chance" means exactly? If you hooked someone, your first effort was successful. No second chance needed. The only perk that comes close to removing a hook state—which would be equal to getting one for free—is StB, and it doesn't remove it, just shifts its location. It's also super risky. So okay, you can have your free-hook perk, but it's one time use and, after using it, you spend the next two minutes stunned. You'll get to feel like the NPC you want the survivors to be as gens pop around you and they stand in front of you and tbag.