Best Of

Everything I state about Legion I don't think it was a problem to begin with. Survivors have medic classes which can quickly reset the team while Escapists can trick Legion into places where he can't do his feral frenzy hits, yet because he was annoying for the vast majority, he got removed.

And I don't think Oni being strong is a problem because its counterbalanced by the fact that Escapist, Medic and Scout are just as strong, with Escapist being used specially very often.

Let me highlight a line that I think encapsulate the issues:

“Predictable” wasn’t being used to mean “automatically better,” it was used to explain how the value scales.

Then why did you say predictable instead of actually demonstrating the numbers?

You say continuous - I point out it doesn't mean better, just continuous, you say you weren't arguing that, then you go right back to it.

You say predictable - I point out it doesn't mean better, just predictable, you say you weren't arguing that and go right back to it.

As we'll see in your post, you really struggle to explain how these are better without just using these words as if they mean better (I'm going to hit this point a lot here)

The mechanism isn’t complicated: coordination increases total simultaneous repair uptime, and percentage repair bonuses scale directly with how many total seconds survivors are repairing. More coordinated repair time = more value extracted from the same multiplier.

The counter is also incredibly simple.

There's nothing about this that is unique to gen perks. You will say you agree with that, but you never address how the gen perks are actually superior without falling back to the continuous argument.

It’s basic scaling logic. If you keep hearing the same explanation, it’s not because it hasn’t been given — it’s because you keep arguing around it instead of engaging with it.

Or potentially its because you keep refusing to engage with the counter arguments and keep repeating a mechanic.

To look at scaling you need multiple elements - such as how much and what are the other possibilities?

Yes, scaling exists for all coordination, that’s obvious. The point isn’t that gen perks are the only thing that scale, it’s that generator progress is the win condition, and percentage repair bonuses apply directly to that objective every second survivors are repairing.

It being the win condition is completely irrelevant. All the gen speed in the world won't matter if survivors are constantly being downed/eliminated (for multiple possible reasons that perks could help with)

This is like arguing in American football teams should always throw the ball because you gain more yards that way or in basketball always go for threes because that's more points - that's silly, its a simple explanation, but just because something is simple doesn't mean its right especially when you have lots of mechanics involved.

Other coordinated advantages (heals, anti-tunnel, chase perks, etc.) are indirect, they eventually translate into gen time if things go well. Repair bonuses skip that extra step and convert uptime straight into objective progress. That’s the distinction.

We're right back to direct does not equal better.

Extra steps does not equal worse.

If an indirect action yields a greater return than a direct action, then its better. The relevance is the outcome - continuous, predictable, direct, etc are neither inherently better or worse.

And I’m not claiming “perks alone cause the entire difference.” The point is that coordination increases repair uptime, and repair-speed multipliers amplify the value extracted from that increased uptime, meaning the same coordinated time produces more objective completion than it otherwise would.

So yes, the “complex part” is measuring how large that effect is, but acknowledging that the interaction exists and directly compounds coordinated uptime isn’t oversimplification, it’s just describing the mechanic accurately.

Except you're distinguishing a mechanic that isn't separate.

The more time a survivor spends on gens, the more use they'll get out of gen perks.

The more times they heal, the more value they'll get out of heal perks.

The more they are in chase, the more value they'll get out of chase perks.

SWFs can hypothetically maximize the efficiency of all of these better than a soloq could via coordination. When you say describing a mechanic accurately again you're saying a part no one disagrees with, more time using perk = more value, you might as well keep repeating there's 4 survivors to 1 killer.

Conditional perks can have big moments, but their value depends on specific events, nobody argued otherwise. The difference is that continuous effects apply every second survivors are performing the objective, so any coordination advantage that increases total repair uptime is converted into objective progress immediately and repeatedly, rather than depending on specific events happening first.

You say nobody argued otherwise, then go right into that argument.

Immediately, repeatedly, continuous, do not equal better.

You're saying you do not say these words mean better, but than immediately use them again as the justification for the argument.

That's the repetition I mentioned.

So the point isn’t “predictable = better.”

The point is that continuous effects scale directly with uptime, while conditional effects scale with event frequency, which means coordination affects their value extraction in very different ways.

Very different ways - no one disagrees with that. It's a core concept of DbD's perk design which I've mentioned, situational perks with really strong effects, or easy to access perks with minor effects. That's not a SWF vs soloq issue. Now if you start talking about some of the situational perks, you can see a lot of much strong SWF possibilities over soloq.

without numbers, either can be preferable per activation. Thats not the disagreement.

Either can be preferable? Okay, great, we're at the point that we actually have to compare perks. Let's see where we go from here.

The difference is repair speed bonuses scale with total coordinated repair uptime across the entire match, while large conditional effects scale only with how often their trigger conditions occur. Coordination increases the value of both, but it raises repair uptime far more consistently than it raises rare trigger events, which is why percentage repair bonuses extract more cumulative value from coordination over time.

So the claim isn’t that conditional perks can’t be strong, it’s that continuous objective-speed effects compound coordination more reliably, which is why their impact becomes more noticeable in highly coordinated teams even when the same perks exist in solo play.

And instead of doing that we're right back to

Consistently does not equal better

Continuous does not equal better

Direct does not equal better

Cumulative value from coordination over time does actually mean better, but you actually have to show the cumulative value, not just rely on all the other words.

Additionally, you'd need to show SWFs getting more value out of something like Deja Vu over many matches compared to something like DS in comparison to what an equally skilled soloq could manage with those perks to actually demonstrate your point.

This is like frequency. The rate doesn't matter without factoring in the overall value achieved.

Rate matters because rate determines how much value accumulates over the match.
A large but rare effect can be strong per activation, but continuous objective speed effects convert every extra second of coordinated uptime into progress, so their total impact can be larger even if each individual gain is smaller.

Let's look at my quote - rate doesn't matter without factoring in the overall value achieved.

That should answer everything you type here. Rate, direct, continuous, predictable, etc. don't matter - what matters is the end result.

On the last thing you type there - "total impact can be larger even if each individual gain is smaller."

Sure, no one disagrees with that in concept.

Demonstrating it with the perks/items that exist in game, in comparison to soloq, in comparison to what else SWFs could run is the issue.

They both increase gen value, the distinction is how the value scales with coordination.

“More time on gens” depends on events happening (injuries, chases, rescues), so the amount of extra time varies match to match.
“More value per second on gens” applies every second survivors are repairing, so when coordination increases sustained simultaneous repair uptime, that bonus compounds continuously across the team.

So the claim isn’t that gen perks are magically unique, it’s that objective speed multipliers scale more consistently with coordinated uptime, which is why their cumulative impact becomes more noticeable in highly coordinated groups.

Varies does not equal worse.

Consistently does not equal better.

If through coordination, a SWF gets an extra ~5 seconds out of their gen perks than they would have compared to soloq every trial, and if coordination nets them an extra 50 seconds out of using DS once every five trial compared to soloq, well on raw numbers DS wins (then we get into strategic applications of these issues which adds another layer to the discussion - because the mechanics in DbD for what is better/worse aren't actually simple)

scaling exists for everythingt he distinction is where the scaling applies.

Many coordinated benefits only create the opportunity to gain gen time and depend on events occurring. Repair speed multipliers apply directly to the objective every second survivors are repairing, so when coordinated teams maintain higher simultaneous repair uptime, the same efficiency difference is converted into more total objective progress, not just more opportunities.

the point isnt that frequency alone decides value, it’s that objective-speed multipliers convert coordination into match progress more directly,

So I'd just be repeating myself here as this is the same things. Directly does not equal better.

If you have a preference for predictable values whose value are more consistent, that's great. No one says you can't. But that doesn't make it objectively better.

which is why their cumulative impact becomes more visible when comparing equally skilled coordinated teams to solo pla

So this is difficult to prove/disprove because who is soloq and who is SWF is never known unless you are in the SWF or its streamers.

I've been in soloq games where the killer accused us of gen rush despite being soloq. One or two good chases, a team of decent survivors, the gens are going to fly. I've watched SWFs become incredibly inefficient when the things don't go their way.

But if this was the absolute best strategy, we're right back to why aren't more SWFs running it, especially in things like no limit comp matches. Or we can look to Japan were the survivors have higher escape rates and are considered far more efficent, yet they have the self heal meta were sometimes all the survivors are burning multiple perk slots on healing builds.

At some point there should be something demonstrating this mechanic especially given the self evident nature you seem to think it has.

yea, efficiency improves everything that’s not the revelation you think it is. The point isn’t that gen perks are the only thing affected by coordination, it’s that they’re the one category that converts that efficiency directly into win condition progress every single second.

The revelation should be 'that doesn't matter'.

You're right back to arguing that continuous equals better. Without getting into numbers on overall value achieved, the distinction is irrelevant.

Heals, saves, information, anti-tunnel, all of those eventually translate into gen time if things go well. Repair-speed multipliers don’t need a “maybe later” step, they’re already sitting on the objective bar, turning every extra second of coordinated uptime into progress immediately.

We're back to trade-offs.

The problem with the 'maybe later' scenario is what do the survivors do if that situation arises and they aren't prepared for it? This is back to the idea as well that with how you define things, gen perks are also conditional. If a survivor needs anti-tunnel, and doesn't have anti-tunnel, that maybe later becomes extremely important.

And many of these things, such as heals, unhooks, chases, happen in the vast majority of DbD matches.

So when you say “we’re looking at small differences,” you’re treating those seconds like they happen once. They don’t. They happen simultaneously across multiple survivors for the entire match, which is exactly why the cumulative effect shows up at the coordination ceiling.

Literally doesn't reflect anything I've typed. You even quoted me above connected rate to overall impact.

Rate x value x frequency = overall value compared to the same scenario for soloq.

Nobody is arguing that coordination doesn’t help everything. That’s obvious. The point, the one you keep circling around is that objective speed multipliers are the place where that efficiency compounds continuously, not occasionally. Calling that “one of the smallest benefits” without accounting for how many total seconds those bonuses are active is just hand waving the scaling away instead of actually addressing it.

Continuously does not equal better.

Again, if the argument is not you are saying these things are better, you need to stop relying them as a substitute for better.

Presuming small benefits over multiple seconds outweigh less frequent large benefits is pretending in an argument instead of making it.

Again, I've laid out multiple examples (as have others) of what SWFs might actually achieve with these perks. You have not. How many extras seconds of repair time do think a coordinated SWF is gaining on average over an equally skilled soloq? If you actually have a starting point on numbers and how many perks you thinks a SWF should be/are dedicating as gen perks, that actually gives you points for comparison. If you actually look at real number possibilities, you have to imagine some truly extreme scenarios to make these gen perks/items seem to have anything more than a minor impact in comparison to soloq.

The zombies are unbearable. When you're down to one gen left it's almost impossible with two killers and 4 zombies all near the remaining gens.

I love RPD but it's bad for 2v8, so I wouldn't mind seeing that changed. I'd also like to see some anti-tunnel and maybe the ability to self-unhook on 2nd stage.

The long-awaited neon city map, perhaps?

I want Houndmaster in 2v8 so I can play her with a Dracula main! 🐕

OP is talking about information before the match. E.g. if a Survivor gets tunneled and instead of the person with Shoulder the Burden being able to unhook them, it is another Survivor, which helps the tunneled Survivor less. Just another Perk which is just better in SWF and way worse in SoloQ.

@Topic:

I fully agree. I think it has to be implemented that Survivors see the Perks of other Survivors in the Loading Screen. And it is a QoL-Feature which 100% needs to come and it should have come years ago, there is 0 reason why SWFs should be able to know their Perks, but Solos cannot have this information.

And I also think that there need to be more ingame notifications of certain Perks. E.g. they show that a Survivor has We Will Make It, which is great. But I dont see why it should not be seen that a Survivor has Resurgence, which would be crucial against a Killer who is running anything with Hemorrhage, since not healing instantly means that the 70% progress are gone in around 3 seconds.

Add location pinging to the game so survivors can mark locations with a ping that goes away after a little bit, would improve solo q a lot solo q is borderline unplayable because of severe lack of info to teammates whatsoever