There is something fundamentally wrong with generators.
I feel, that if a perk or special item is required to have a fighting chance to win, there is something fundamentally wrong. I feel that we should not HAVE to use ruin at high ranks to even have a fighting chance of winning. It's almost REQUIRED to play. I play both sides, and I still feel that generators go too fast. Now, I'm not sure what to change because if we make the gens slower it'll be boring for survivors, but something should be done.
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No-one has ever repaired a generator hanging from a hook - that's all I'm saying...
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There is something fundamentally wrong when only certain killers have mobility and are strong in chases.
The Forever Freddy build is a good example of this. Imagine if they slowed down gens even more, they would have to scrap/nerf a lot of the perks that already slow down the game. Or it would be too much.
Obviously if they gave everyone a teleport it would be boring. They need to give killers with limited mobility more variation to their powers and allow them to have options during a chase (Clown) , and also buff the ones who have mobility but do poorly during a chase (Legion).
You may think that gen times are bad but there are matches where the killer literally pressured enough that maybe one gen got done. Much of this has to do with player skill level... on both sides.
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The problem with all perks is they don't help increase a person's skill. Before ruin was even a perk killers had to deal with actual infinites, the gens were at 40s, each sprint perk had seperate cool downs with 30s between use and the timer went down when running and sabo was permanent. Those are just some examples.
If killers managed to do well back then in those days what changed? Why when the gens have doubled and all the perks to slow the game down are people complaining more?
Always think about what you are asking for as many things people have asked to be changed haven't helped and if anything made it worse.
The biggest one was the healing nerf. The forums on steam were always flooded with complaints about it and ignored what the devs and many of us players said. Eventually they caved in and nerfed it. Now gens can go even faster as people don't heal and the complaints moved on to saying being injured isn't a punishment. Really good killer players out there will disagree with that.
It never ends to be honest and I feel those complaining the most do so as they want the game to be more competative than it's designed to be. It's a fun casual party grinding game with a system where you will meet those less and more skilled than yourself over the course of a days playtime.
That's just my opinion of course.
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Yet......
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*new glitch comes out where you get to repair generators on the hook* *everyone proceeds to stare at @Rex_Huin *
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If survivors ever hands-free gen progression perk I'm quitting.
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You definitely don't need to Ruin to play in red ranks. I do it myself on a regular basis. Sometimes I have a good match and win, sometimes I have a bad match and lose, other times I do okay and maybe get two kills.
I suppose it depends on what your bar is for winning, but it's definitely not essential. Will it help? Sure. All perks help you win. But relying on it in order to win is up to you.
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It was a joke!
I wouldn't enjoy seeing a survivor kicking a gen hoping for results
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They should totally do a perk like totem =10% of a gen :)
Just say its to counter 3 gen strats or something ez
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There's a reason I main survivor now. Its basically stress free and easy mode compared to playing killer
The most stressful thing is bad teammates, that throw the match, and the demigorgon's screams and terror radius music. Stuff is creepy and unnerving.
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I guess no one watch tournaments i mean real tournament. Trust me the gens and loops are definitely a problem except nurse of course. The new nurse addonless is said to be bad and yet two days ago on the escape tournament hosted by marth and admiredplague show that she still 4k on game map and with two perks only and very strong survivors.
The issues on this forum you see this game as being casual when he is not anymore. As long there is a ranking system the game become competitive, Against top survivors and top killers when not playing nurse/spirit most game on haddonfield/rotten Field/crotus prenn is a lose.
The game is balanced when average/bad/experienced survivors play against top killers. Once the top survivors came across top killers that's game changing, the balance become less balanced and most maps show which side is truly the most powerful.
Hillbilly is considered as the most balanced killer in the game in a sense yes but, against top survivors he is getting looped into oblivion. Last tournament on PC shows a hillbilly getting for 5 gens on Haddonfield and on ormond. The teams play as everyone should all scattered on different gens.
Once one is chased if played correctly three gens pop and you only down one if you play optimally as killer. On most maps if you reduce gens per side and do all gens on each middle of maps is a lose for the killer, he lose control and survivors have easier time to do gens due to them being far of each other. Killer have to travel far away so he doesn't have that much control.
Conclusion : survivors that understand the basic and strong strategy of how the gens should be done with that how to loop effectively. The escape would be way higher on red ranks. For a casual player the game is balanced / for competitive-tryhard player it is not.
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Prove Thyself good
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You're right OP, there is something fundamentally wrong with generators, but it's not that they go too fast.
It's that how fast they go varies and depends greatly on the Killers and Survivors in question as well as their perks and add-ons.
I mean, if gens were slowed so that No Ruin Wraiths could effectively deal with Commodious Toolbox using Prove Thyself SWFs, then Forever Freddy would be absolutely unplayable against Solos without items.
The huge gap in this game between the various types of Survivors and Killers as well as their perks make it hard to balance any of the game's core problems.
Hillbilly and Spirit can pressure Survivors in different areas quickly enough that they can generally manage without Ruin; and with it they can handle almost any Survivor team.
But Wraith without add-ons can't easily traverse the map enough to do the same; he also doesn't have an innate instadown ability, so a Survivor in a dead zone just gets hit instead of going down unless they mess up or the Wraith has a perk to help him. He needs Ruin to keep one chase from costing 3 gens against a decently competent Survivor team.
Either No Ruin Wraith will always be not as good as Spirit or Nurse with Ruin, or the devs will have to majorly overhaul a lot of this game. Either by nerfing strong Killers so they can then change the game itself to be better for every Killer, or by buffing all the weak Killer's powers individually so they can compete with strong Killers.
Given the Spirit is going to be 'looked' at and the Nurse was nerfed, it seems like they're going for the former. At least, I hope they are.
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U are very wrong, sry about that "you dont need ruin in red ranks" OMG!! Play trapper in rank 1 without ruin. I don't want to get into an argument with you, but you are very wrong.
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(Understand, I did not play DbD back when, these are just assumptions)
In the early stages it was probably a lot "easier" for both sides. With the abundance of pallets and windows but lack of skill, games were probably not impossible for killers. But as the game progressed and pallets became fewer in quantity, survivors had to adapt to use pallets to their fullest (aka looping).
How I assume the early stages of the game looked like is people running around aimlessly, throwing down pallets and vaulting windows without a plan.
I can't base these assumptions on anything but this is the most plausible reason as to why killers could kill even when survivors had so many tools back then.
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Dude peanits live streams matches at high ranks all the time without ruin with a variety of killers.
You're telling him to do something he's done in front of people live. Things a lot of streamers have done...
Ruin is nice but not mandatory at all.
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I play 4 minute games, do you think it's 4 minute games fun? I think not, I do not like that my games last 4 minutes while the survivors earn many points repairing generators.
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If I can play in Red/Purple ranks as a Wraith with no Gen related perks and still get 2-4k per match, then so can you.
Even as a survivor in Red/Purple ranks, there are games where only one or two gens get done before 2+ people die.
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It was a lot easier for survivors not killers as pallets were actually safer and windows didn't get blocked by the entity.
Like I said true infinites existed and not just time wasting jungle gyms like they are now. Imagine a jungle gyms which could be looped endlessly.
Looping has always been in the game but came more into light around September 2016. There was no way to stop this so they started to build more mechanics into the game to try and combat it.
Yes the players could run around aimlessly and why it took a couple of months to really show up.
What we have to aknowledge is for every complaint on the forums there are at least a couple of thousand that are just enjoying the game. The people that post here are a tiny minority of players and why the devs have to look at overall stats as what one person finds difficult many others find easy.
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On his twitch channel /peanits_bhvr
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Now I don't like saying this, but perhaps there's some user error involved. There's people out there who pull it off with no issue. I do it myself. Sometimes I lose in an embarrassing fashion, yes, but that tends to be because I messed up pretty badly (in which case, I should lose).
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Ruin isn't necessary just camp and the game will either end and you get a kill or you get all the kills by slugging
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Wins and losses are one thing, but the driving force behind so many of the complaints is that the game speed often feels out of the killer's hands. So many tiles are objectively safe and there's no reason 3 survivors can't get 3 gens done in the first 2 minutes. It just feels bad to play as well as you can with a killer like Clown and be physically unable to walk to your objective in time to defend it.
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I'm finding the exact opposite at ranks 6 through 9 I cannot seem to get a team who wants to even touch gens until someone is being hit. Then survivors run the killer by us on gens. Sloppy butcher with thantaphobia slows us way down then ruin. I might get lucky 1 out of 10 matches and have a team doing gens but then we're against legion who's frenzy on everyone with thantaphobia and we can't do a thing. When I'm killer survivors rush me when I'm survivor killers kill us insanely fast. The matchmaking is the issue not the gens lol
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Do you think I have had several games where I have not had "failures" as killer and I have been penalized with a game of 4-5 minutes still putting the perk of ruin? That how would you describe it? I have + 3k hours .. Imagine not carrying the perk of ruin in rank 1, you do a 1-2 minute chase because you find a player who knows how to play while the teammates repair generators, as killer ends with 18k points while the survivors repairing takes more than 20k, that is NOT FAIR.
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Weird how the majority of top killers who both stream and play this game regularly at red ranks disagree with you, if you want to be competitive. Would you like to try playing a game of Trapper, Hag, Huntress, or some other B tier killers and write down your statistics compared to when you do run it?
I don't need to wear an umbrella when it rains, either. I mean, I completely understand why so many things are in such a terrible state when there are devs that honestly believe that Ruin isn't a problem and gen time isn't a problem. I just dunno what to say.
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I play a lot of wraith without ruin and I still manage to get 3-4ks consistently. Ruin isn't a necessary perk if you can play well enough.
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The killer has about 7 minutes to find survivors and do 12 chases, unless you happen to run across survivors you've alreasy hooked and take them out of the match quickly. You do the math.
Also remember that you as killer get punished with frustration if you are too efficient finding survivors and ending chases; you'll get hit by a ds even if you don't tunnel anyone.
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I can deny this due to glitches
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Yeah, that's why survivors always have to repair them
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Just hook everyone and they cant do gens!
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You're still forgetting about Legion o3o
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I think the problem is that because the games become quite competitive there is no fun for anyone who wants to play casually. People who say you dont need ruin im going to ask if you have played for a long time or play every day. Because a lot of the time when someone says to me you dont need ruin - they either stream the game every day have every single perk and know every in and out of the game, or they dont stream but still know just as much.
But also i think that the times ruin becomes a perk you might need is when its survive with friends, i feel like against solo survivors you can slap on any old perks and win. But with survive with friends 9 times out of 10 they will destroy ruin and pop 3 gens within your first chase. Whenever i want to run a totem at all its destroyed practically instantly unless its in some insanely hidden place. Which theyre amost never in, i think whenever i use a totem its always out in a visible location.
I think the issue is that swf is more powerful than a killer unless the killer is a godly player with insane hours into the game and that swf is what you will be against most of the time like 60% of my games maybe are swf teams and they always are ranks ahead of me in the red/purple ranks (im trying to stay mid ranks till i get all the perks i want unlocked)
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From my point of view, toolboxes with add-ons are the biggest issue. You can easily deny early game pressure by using them and snowball it in survivors favour. I would say either remove add-ons completely (items can be useful even without them) or make it so when killer hits you, you will drop your item (without the need to use Franklin's perk).
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You dont need ruin to win games, I only use it on a few killers such as pig, myers and hag. All other killers only have pop or corrupt or both and I am totally fine with that. I never had the feeling that I would miss ruin or needed it in some situations. I think it is only a psychological "missing", you feel naked without ruin but turst me, once you get used to, you will not miss it.
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Well guess what? You don't have to have Ruin to win at high ranks.
There are numerous killers who don't use Ruin and win or even get 4Ks in red ranks.
So your entire post is solved. Without you ending to do a finger! Amazing.
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There are tons of killers on this board who don't use Ruin and play at Red Ranks.
Whether streamers play like them or not is unimportant. The fact that they exist proves that it is possible to play and win without Ruin in red. Does Ruin make it easier? Sure it does. But it's not required.
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I'm okay with removing add-ons. I mean, killer powers can be useful even without add-ons, right?
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So what? I can link you to a video of a killer making mince meat of a survivor or two in under 2 at Rank 1.
The game allows for both to happen.
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You say the gen times are too fast except against Nurse. (Top Killer)
You say Nurse can 4K easy without even a full loadout at the highest levels of play.
Then you say the game is only balanced if it's non-top survivors against top killers. Basically if Top survivors play even Top Killers lose. But before that you said Nurse can easily slaughter top survivors.
Come on dude. Stop contradicting yourself. You're trying so hard to show that Survivors are the power role but even your own arguments contradict yourself.
That's what happens when you are forcing a narrative that isn't true.
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"If killers managed to do well back then in those days what changed? Why when the gens have doubled and all the perks to slow the game down are people complaining more?"
survivors got better, that's the long and short of it
back in those days survivors still didn't even really know how to play the game, they still kinda don't but more people know how to abuse what's broken
if we went back to that balance now killer kill rates would drop to 0%
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Killer add-ons are fine - they have one-time use, but survivors can use them in multiple matches (taken they can survive). Other solution could be that survivor add-ons are also only for single match.
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If forever Freddy can make gens go any slower I quit as a survivor and killer. I already hate playing against them. Depending on my killer I can say some don't need ruin. Like a trapper is a no brainier you need ruin but a Billy or spirit now that's a killer I can work with. My spirit build is haunted, devour, BBQ, and whispers, save the best for last or make your choice. The 4th perk can be really anything I even use discordance sometimes to find those early gens. Then it just plays down like normal. I either 4k, only get some of the survivors, or lose. Ruin isnt always necessary just 90% of the time.
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What tournaments?
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The same can be said for either side.
If you are saying killers only did well due to survivors not knowing how to play the game then they themselves had to get better after survivors learnt or it would have been 0% even then.
In that respect the argument also rings true for the good killer players if they could still 3 or 4k in most of their matches throughout the games life one could say they simply got better while some others didn't.
Its much like some survivors players who complain and it comes down to realising not everyone can or will be good at any game.
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generator completion time isn't the root of the problem you are describing. If it is or is not really a problem is a different discussion.
The root cause is the inability of a large number of killers to effectively pressure gens (in the minds of poor killers who seem to think the purpose of this game is to kill survivors). Killing survivors is a by product of defending your generators.
You've got to understand, the lore around the entity is all a lie. The killers aren't the bad guy. All the lore is survivor propaganda. The survivors are trespassing little shits who are constantly vandalizing the killers property. The entities realm isn't hell for survivors, its hell for killers! The gates when opened lead to the property of the killers and the only way to keep those little bastards from defacing their homes is to stop them from turning on the generators.
Gen/zone defense builds used to be pretty common back in the day. Today you have even more options for making solid gen/zone defense builds. But a key to making them working is striving to make sure the survivors end up on the last 3 generators closest together, and by the time they've done that, ideally there are no pallets left on the map.
Every killer, if played with a focus on planning the zone you want to control, removing all the pallets from that zone and keeping the generators from being completed in that zone, can and will succeed in red ranks against good teams of survivors.
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I'm not contradicting myself nurse is still as strong as pre-nerf. Many think is dead but the nerf which is clearly isn't true. Nurse is the only killer that deny any defense the survivor got. Hillbilly get looped, Spirit get looped and Nurse do not that's the big difference. Why do you thing the nurse has the highest kill rate in the whole game(Red Ranks).
stop playing with my words all i meant is Nurse and only nurse can be beat top survivors. Other killers can't you just misunderstood it or i've said it poorly.
There is many tournaments. be specific the last one done is the escape tournament hosted by marth. You can find it here https://www.twitch.tv/videos/503061323
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