The Problem With How bE Balances
Good morning people of the fog. Today I want to address how bE handles balance. Has anyone else noticed when bE decides to balance something they drastically overtune it in one direction. Several examples:
Huntress: Tinkerer no longer effected hatchet wind up speed. They also considerably decreased hatchet wind up time of both her adding on top of this.
Nurse: changed her addons that made her broken (5 blink and omega blink). Then also changed her base kit as well.
Legion: Addons seemed to strong for mending time. Buffed borrowed time and merged base kit legion to compensate.
Just a few examples, but a lot of these changes would have been fine if they just did one or the other, why do they feel the need to stack on change after change instead of gradual changes every mid patch?
Comments
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Yeah, they're logic is just out of this world, it makes little to no sense to me whenever they do something. Its also killers will get nerfed much quicker then anything survivor has. It took forever to get item addons at a good place, and keys are still a problem. They added in vacuum pallets and took forever to get them out. They added in decisive strike then took forever to nerf it, and its still strong. But killers get nerfed on a whim, perks get nerfed on a whime and are made useless on the killer side.
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Survivors have gotten some huge nerfs to perks and pallet vacuums. I would say it's a lot easier to be a killer right now.
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Then you don't play killer much to at all I would wager. Killer is far more stressful then playing survivor, I can tell you. As a survivor you only need to keep track of yourself really, unless the killer is using certain perks you will know where your team is when they need you. Second they did nerf vacuum pallets, but that was after they where added into the game in the first place.
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This is absolutely untrue. I am rank 1 on both sides every season, and it is far easier to play solo survivor. Even if teammates suck/rng goes against you, you can usually still safety pip. If anything goes against you as killer, it’s an auto depip into cocky, taunting survivors.
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Just ignore everything else. Good view of the world. Not.
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Pallet vacuums were never added, they've always been there. If you go back and watch any footage of the game at release you'll see people warp right to the far side of the pallet.
Having played since the start, I've gotta' say that it's never been easier to play killer. Even going back just a little over year ago, I used to have to deal with people teleporting to the far side of the pallet, Borrowed Time that protected both the unhooker and the person who was unhooked, DS that worked the first time you downed someone with no way to avoid it, and the list goes on.
That's not to say that it's perfect now, but to deny that it has gotten way better since would require a very selective memory. It'll likely always be more stressful just by the nature of the role; it all depends on you. You are the only one facing the four survivors. There's nobody to watch your back if you mess up.
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I agree killers have gotten better. But my statement that they are far more stressful to play then survivor still stands. You make a mistake as a killer, and thats not only amplified four times, its usually a far worse punishment then when a survivor makes a mistake. So why isn't it that killers have more power to compensate?
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I believe that what op is talking about, is how long it takes for the team to fix things.
How long did it take for you to address BL creating infinites? Or to fix old Freddy?
That's the issue.
As for perks been easier to go against, DS, BT, they are still TOO STRONG.
They are literally in every build at purple/ree ranks.
Tell me, honestly @Peanits
Are you guys really proud of having a stale meta for more than a year?
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All in all, I'd say the game is getting leaps and bounds less stressful than it was in the past. Constantly being surrounded by survivors trying to body block EVERY hook or trying to get flashlight saves for EVERY hook sucked. Now between madgrit, instablinds being nerfed and changes in hook placements...I hardly ever see this. Been screwing around with Bubba and other non-top tier killlers lately, and still manage to have a good time.
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The depip squad showed us how powerful survivors can be.
I don't think the devs are willing to admit it yet.
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Well, I think Peanits has an excellent point here. Playing killer will always be more stressful, because it all depends on you. Nobody has your back if you mess up. It's why many of the most-played videogames are all team games; it really makes the game less stressful when you have other people to back you up if you make a mistake.
Unless you were to make killers a faceroll-easymode that can just stomp the survivors with minimal effort. But then, nobody would want to play Survivor, and a lot of killer mains would get bored if there's no challenge to it.
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I think killer needs to be the power role. Sure it might be more stressful going alone no matter what, but right now the power role is the survivor. And that goes against the whole modus operandi of the game. Survivors should have to struggle to do well. Killers should too, just not as much as they currently are for a majority of them.
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- Make Legion on that the premise that "they're very fun to play with and against".
- Legion's extremely unfun to play against because there's literally nothing you can do as a Survivor. You're going down no matter what.
- Devs spend many updates on trying to band-aid Legion's power, by changing perks and how mechanics work.
- Legion players keep finding ways to bypass changes, keeping their oppressive presence going.
- Devs finally "rework" Legion by curb-stomping them into the side-walk and burying them in the woods.
- Changes a few perks and suddenly, the Legion they tried so hard to get rid off pops right out of the ground, thirsty for blood and salt..
I don't even know what's going on in the Balancing department of Behavior's company.
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It lacks play testing I would say.
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This is correct for me. I switched to killer over a year ago and enjoy the game much more. I find 70% of the killer complaints on this forum to be more playstyle issues than actual game issues. Keya are a great example. Maybe one in 10 matches see a key used. Less than half of those include more than one escape. If you see a key, make sure to eliminate that threat with Franklin's. Easy fix and most players focus on getting that key back again, so it is easy to lure them.
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With legion it was exploits due to how his power worked on top of some add-ons being broken mainly Frank's mix tape they nerfed legion into the ground but he didn't get compensation
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I actually disagree with you about that ds comment since juggling was a thing back then since ds didn't activate straight away on pick up and with other people it didn't activate until the wiggle meter reached 35%(unsure on the accurate %) so counterplay was actually removed from ds because you could choose between slugging your opponent and juggling
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Franklin's was never a real counter since they can easily just pick up the key later or just drop it early in a specific area not to mention they buffed plunderers so you can see objects on the ground and you can still find keys in chests
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Yet every Killer, on average, gets more than two kills per game, even in the red ranks. Thus, even the worst killer in the game wins more than they lose.
Survivors are only the power role if you give them room to take control of the game. You ultimately have most of the control over whether a survivor lives or dies; if so inclined, you can play Insidious Bubba and facecamp a survivor to death, and assuming you can end at least one chase before the exit gates are open, then the survivors can do nothing to prevent their teammate's death. Or if you're not satisfied with one death, you can bring an Ebony Mori and get multiple kills, quite easily.
Doing well as a survivor is never an easy task; if it was, then there would be a lot more survivors at the red ranks.
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I'm not saying survivors are brain dead, they take some skill and concentration. Just not nearly as much as killer, nor are they punished as hard for making mistakes as a killer is. Also the pace of the game is dictated by the survivors and how well they play and how much presence the killer can place on the map. So without that ability, the game becomes mainly in the survivors hands.
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Pretty much this. I will agree with the OP that the nerf stick does seem to swung pretty hard when it's brought out.
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Yeah, survivors are more of a chill role, because they spend a lot of their time working on generators. If you want the objective to force survivors to take a more active role, then go play Deathgarden. But saying that they're not punished as hard for making mistakes is a pretty ridiculous notion. The difference between taking a hit and not taking a hit is huge. The difference between getting downed and escaping a chase will very often mean the difference between victory and defeat. And if you make the wrong decisions about what to do and where to go, it can very often lead to death.
I really haven't seen anything to convince me that the survivors are truly the "power role". I mostly just see a bunch of buzzwords being thrown around by killer mains after they get outplayed by survivors who are ranked much higher than them. If anything, you should be blaming the matchmaking and ranking system for that. Just look at high-ranking killer mains like Otzdarva. He mains a mid-tier killer, the Trapper, and yet he can often get 4Ks against some of the most experienced survivors around, while playing with a stupid meme build.
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Survivors are the "power" role because all other things being equal the survivors control the pace of the game. Due an disproportionate distribution of objective requirements and the fact that the survivors objectives are the PvE component of the game and effectively fixed.
1 killer must complete 12 hooks to end the game. Hit time is 3 secs. 2 hits. Currently pickup time I believe is 3 secs. Hook time ~3 secs as well. So killer to complete all his objectives is 12 x 12. 144 secs
4 survivors must complete 5 generators to end the game. One survivor can complete 1 generator in working solo in 80 secs (without skill checks). If you measure it, again at excluding all other variables, lets say 4 survivors on 4 gens and all 4 on the 5th that puts total time to complete all generators a 108 secs. (4 on 1 takes 28 secs), and 20 secs to open a gate.
so you're comparing 144 to 128. For the killer to be on "equal" ground his time to complete his objectives should be 1/4 the time of the survivors if you want to position him as a Power role that requires the entire opposing team be equal to him, or 1/3 or 1/2 or 1 if you want to position him as varying degrees of power up to equal to a single survivor.
*edit
included gate time
Also, obviously this is a massive simplification. But fundamentally it demonstrates how the times are disproportionate. I'm not advocating or arguing the killer SHOULD be the power role, only demonstrating that fundamentally he is not.
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HA! maybe in like rank 20
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Survivors are the "power" role because all other things being equal the survivors control the pace of the game. Due an disproportionate distribution of objective requirements and the fact that the survivors objectives are the PvE component of the game and effectively fixed.
1 killer must complete 12 hooks to end the game. Hit time is 3 secs. 2 hits. Currently pickup time I believe is 3 secs. Hook time ~3 secs as well. So killer to complete all his objectives is 12 x 12. 144 secs
4 survivors must complete 5 generators to end the game. One survivor can complete 1 generator in working solo in 80 secs (without skill checks). If you measure it, again at excluding all other variables, lets say 4 survivors on 4 gens and all 4 on the 5th that puts total time to complete all generators a 108 secs. (4 on 1 takes 28 secs), and 20 secs to open a gate.
so you're comparing 144 to 128. For the killer to be on "equal" ground his time to complete his objectives should be 1/4 the time of the survivors if you want to position him as a Power role that requires the entire opposing team be equal to him, or 1/3 or 1/2 or 1 if you want to position him as varying degrees of power up to equal to a single survivor.
More important though, then the time to complete objectives as far as defining the "power" role, it is rather who controls the PvE component of the game.
In a true competitive pvp game their is no power role, instead you 100% compete with each other.
DBD is a PvPvE game. In which killers protect their env from survivors. If the killer does nothing the survivors can still complete the game. If the survivors do nothing to which I include interacting with the killer, an absurd scenario I know, the game would never end, as the killer has no way of ending the game without interacting with the survivors. This is what defines a power role in dbd.
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Your math is missing several crucial elements.
-If a survivor is in a chase, they can't work on generators until they lose the killer.
-Every time a survivor gets hooked, that survivor can no longer work on generators or assist other survivors until another survivor comes to unhook them, wasting precious time for both survivors.
-Once a survivor is put on the hook, the killer is free to find another survivor to chase while other survivors are going for unhooks.
-If a survivor is put on their last hook, then they are dead and can no longer work on generators or go for unhooks.
-The survivors also have to waste additional time opening the exit gates before they can escape.
So, if we assume that the killer is always chasing one survivor at any given time, then that leaves only three survivors to work on all of the generators. Instead of taking 108 seconds to complete all of the generators, the survivors will now need around 140 seconds to complete all the generators, at the bare minimum (80 seconds to complete the first 3 generators, ~45 seconds to complete the fourth generator with two survivors working on it, and ~15 seconds for the last generator to be completed, if the third survivor repairs it on his own for the first 45 seconds, then the others join him after finishing the fourth generator). Then the survivors need to waste 20 seconds getting the Exit Gates open. So the killer has 144 seconds to kill all the survivors, and it will take 160 seconds before the survivors get the exit gates open.
If we add hooks to the equation, then things become even more favorable for the killer. Every time the killer gets a hook, a survivor needs to stop working on the generators to go unhook them. If a survivor is hooked 3 times, then they're permanently removed from the game and can no longer work on generators.
If we look at your equation and assume that the killer gets hooks as fast as technically possible (6 seconds to get 2 hits, 3 seconds to pickup, 3 seconds to hook), it quickly becomes apparent that the survivors won't be able to keep up. Every successful hook forces the hooked survivor to waste at least 6 seconds of their own time, and forces a different survivor to waste 3 seconds unhooking them. If we assume that the killer hooks every survivor in order and doesn't get any early kills, then the survivors will start dying, one by one, after the 9th hook, which will occur after 108 seconds if we just go by your math.
You can calculate all the details if you want, but I think my point still stands; the numbers only favor the Survivors if the Killer idles all game and doesn't chase or hook any of them.
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When it comes to buffing they go over the top look at Freddy for example.. trash tier to god tier and then when it comes to nerfing they also go crazy lol
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All good points, I think the most frustrating part for me as a killer is how much of an impact the early game has, if you get your first down and hook in a minute then start another chase you are pressuring 3 survivors just like you said.
However if you go to the wrong gen first AND the first survivor you find happens to be the “looper,” of the team you could be faced with 3 gens done by the first hook.
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Well, I think that's just the nature of the game. Dead by Daylight tends to be very snowbally, and the early game can have a huge impact on the overall outcome of the match. I've found that an early gen grab can often spell doom for the survivor team, because your whole team has to waste so much time going for unhooks, trying to heal, and trying to lose the killer instead of working on gens in peace. A lot depends on how quickly the killer finds their first survivor and gets their first hook.
I won't deny that survivor tends to be more of a chill role because of the nature of their objective, and there tends to be a lot of pressure on Killers because they have no teammates to pick up their slack and time isn't on their side, but I don't think that necessarily means survivors are the "power role".
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My math is a massive simplification only used to demonstrate a base line which fundamentally favors the survivors. I stated that from the start of my post.
If you want to use real numbers based on the desired targets of bhvr. We can do that, and those will also continue to show that survivors are the power role or if there not its bhvrs intention to keep them or move them there.
Just one example, the stated desired avg chase time for a killer is ~30 secs. A chase lasting 30 secs represents the ability for the remaining 3 survivors to accomplish 22.5 % of their goals.
If all 4 survivors accomplish a 30 sec chase, that represents (from 4 total chases) 90% of the survivors goals. Assuming each chase ends in a hook, comparatively it represents on 33% of the killers goals.
We know that the desired avg chase time is around 30~ because of when and how much BL kicks in and what factors contribute to BL. BL1 kicks in at 15 secs and adds .2 m/s to the killers movement speed. Not really enough to prevent most simple loops, but enough to force pallet drop in exchange for a hit. That means on average for a single hit bhvr has accommodate a scenario which generally favors survivors in the circumstance in which the survivor makes no mistake providing them the opportunity to escape to the next pallet and force at least another 15 sec game till BL1. So 2 BL1s to secure a down isn't outside of bhvrs expectation for killer performance.
BHVR has also shown that they WANT killers to play fair. They discourage hook camping and tunneling. They do this because it isn't fun for the survivors, but also, ultimately it isn't fun for the killer and killers who hook camp or tunnel will still lose when they facing the single survivor who can fully take advantage of the survivors power position.
BHVR wants survivors to be the power role. Most people make the mistaking of thinking it would be better for the game if he were, it wouldn't be.
Others simple don't understand the game well enough to recognize the killer isn't the power role. And generally view the labeling of survivors as the power role as some kind of derogatory attack on survivors or an attempt to influence the devs to "nerf" survivors and "buff" killers.
The only thing bhvr should do to improve the fun for killers is reduce the importance of survival for the survivors so that when they execute in fullness the power they have, they don't do so at the expense of the killers ability to feel like he is the power role. No actual changes to the game balance are necessary to accomplish this in most cases. There are a couple of options for fixing it. One involves a change to survivor emblems and scoring. 1 involves a change to killer scoring and emblems.
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I'm a rank 1 killer main but alright.
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my numbers were a base line, its for the purposes of providing a frame of reference.
Here is another example that provides a demonstration of the power role the survivors enjoy
the desired avg chase time is ~30 secs. This can be easily understood by the BL timers and the impact BL has on the game.
If all 4 survivors execute 30 sec chases that result in hooks. Assuming survivors only focus on gens. The survivors will have accomplished 90% of their goal, while the killer only 33%.
These are all worse case scenarios of course, but I'm only intending to demonstrate the nature of the roles in their current implementation when played by those of maximum skill.
In its most basic for the survivor is the power role, as such mistakes made by the survivor also have greater impact on the outcome of the game, which is why BHVR has provided so many tools for survivors to circumvent those mistakes.
Power role does not mean you dominate without effort or its the "easy" role. Playing survivor to perfection requires more skill then playing killer. But a perfect survivor team will always beat a perfect killer.
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Then there is the (possible myth) fact that the order of hooking can also affect the outcome of a match. In the lobby the killer can note which players have toolkits, a flashlight, a key, a map or a medkit. Clearly four survivors all equipped with toolkits and bloody clothes suggests an experienced group. Four survivors in the default outfits, no customisation, with no items are more likely to be new players.
So as killer you would likely wish to eliminate threats as soon as possible. Franklin's demise is a good example for depriving a survivor of an item.
But in my own experience...
Being first hook should usually result in a save unless the other three are SWF and not that interested in doing anything other than winning the match as quickly as possible.
Being second hook should result in a save especially if there is already one disconnect or dead survivor (dead where the killer decides the survivor must die at all costs and the survivor who dies will later complain they were "tunneled".)
Being third hook is bad. Its bad when the first two in the team are eliminated and its now just you and one other guy. The fourth player knows if you die on the hook then the endgame will start with a hatch being available.
Worst case scenario is 5 generators still up and you are the last player alive and the killer has just closed the hatch. Will the killer experience an epiphany and let you escape or will they fill you with false hope as you open the exit gate and at 95% they appear like a raging bull and bop you?
And for those that suggested voice comms... "Please Mr. Killer I just need to open the gate with Bill as my daily.. you can kill me right after the gate opens..."
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Well, again, your example leaves out a lot of important elements.
Getting a successful hook gives a LOT of advantages to the killer. It puts the hooked survivor out of commission, it forces another survivor to waste time traveling to the hook, unhooking them, walking away from the hook, and healing the unhooked survivor; it gives a noise notification once the survivor is unhooked, and it allows the killer to disrupt multiple survivors at once if he chooses to follow the notification.
The nature of the Killer's objective is fundamentally different from the survivors' objective. The more hooks you get, the more the game slows down and the easier it becomes to get another hook. The closer you get to achieving your goal, the harder it becomes for the survivors to achieve their goal.
Not to mention that many killers will prioritize getting a third hook on a single survivor if possible, rather than getting first hooks on multiple survivors. Once they've eliminated at least one survivor, the game swings heavily in their favor.
Also, I don't think it's true that a perfect survivor team will always beat a perfect killer. Here's an example video of a full tryhard SWF team (Featuring a designated looper with OoO) going up against a full tryhard Freddy, and Freddy ultimately emerged victorious:
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Have you ever considered actually considering the suggested made by people who play killer? Because it seems you only ever tell them they're wrong and leave it at that, yet when a survivor main complains about killer your stance is that their frustration must be listened to, resulting in killers being nerfed for no good reason.
You only care about making survivors happy.
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Would it even matter at this point? They seem to be so distant from the game they're making..
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Look at 2015 and tell me that's alright. Look at Red rank play now and tell me that's alright.
I don't think you played at either of those times. Killer is not easier than survivor. I play both sides, with killer at red and survivor at purple (getting higher though).
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With the help of an addon yes. Top tier killers obviously have a chance whilst lower cannot at all without a snowball and even then thats on the survivors for making mistakes more than killer for being good
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bHVR nerfs like their middle name is Blizzard. If we force their hand on a particular issue, then you better be damn sure they aren't going to be revisiting it anytime soon lol
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It has never been easier to play killer, but just in theory. You have to keep in mind that players get better at playing the game and using the tools that are available to them. That's why some mechanics get changed/balanced only after a year and not immediately after they go live.
Also killer is not the stressful role because you only rely on yourself. It's stressful because of the short amount of time that survivors need to get their objective done. An extreme example: If nothing changed on the killer's side and survivors had to do 10 gens instead of 5, then killer would be the relaxed role and survivor the stressful one.
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No offense, but you think that team was optimal? The OoO messed up right away that gave Freddy a free hit and blinded him before he needed to be. Had Freddy not gotten that first hit the first gen would have been done before he could head there.
When he did fake the teleport the one survivor ran from it, into an open area, definitely not optimal.
If hr really thinks this team is optimal I would probably laugh watching this guys streams when he hits a real rank one SWF
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The OoO got greedy and assumed that taking a hit wouldn't be a big deal. He had a chance to drop the pallet, and he gave it up to extend the chase for longer and save the pallet for later. It says more about the Killer's skill than the survivors' skill, because the Killer anticipated that the survivor would get greedy, and equipped an add-on to punish them for it.
The survivor ran into an open area after the fake teleport because it's Shelter Woods; the whole map is an open area. Otzdarva made it a point to be unpredictable with his teleports throughout the entire game, so that the survivors never knew which direction he was coming from.
Anyone can do better in a match if they have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. But even an optimal group doesn't have the foresight to see the future.
If you're going to just make up flimsy exceptions every time I dispute your claim, then there's really no point in talking to you.
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The Nurse changes have proven that they don’t play test #########
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