The Problem With How bE Balances

Survivors have gotten some huge nerfs to perks and pallet vacuums. I would say it's a lot easier to be a killer right now.

With legion it was exploits due to how his power worked on top of some add-ons being broken mainly Frank's mix tape they nerfed legion into the ground but he didn't get compensation

Franklin's was never a real counter since they can easily just pick up the key later or just drop it early in a specific area not to mention they buffed plunderers so you can see objects on the ground and you can still find keys in chests

Yeah, survivors are more of a chill role, because they spend a lot of their time working on generators. If you want the objective to force survivors to take a more active role, then go play Deathgarden. But saying that they're not punished as hard for making mistakes is a pretty ridiculous notion. The difference between taking a hit and not taking a hit is huge. The difference between getting downed and escaping a chase will very often mean the difference between victory and defeat. And if you make the wrong decisions about what to do and where to go, it can very often lead to death.

I really haven't seen anything to convince me that the survivors are truly the "power role". I mostly just see a bunch of buzzwords being thrown around by killer mains after they get outplayed by survivors who are ranked much higher than them. If anything, you should be blaming the matchmaking and ranking system for that. Just look at high-ranking killer mains like Otzdarva. He mains a mid-tier killer, the Trapper, and yet he can often get 4Ks against some of the most experienced survivors around, while playing with a stupid meme build.

HA! maybe in like rank 20

Your math is missing several crucial elements.

-If a survivor is in a chase, they can't work on generators until they lose the killer.

-Every time a survivor gets hooked, that survivor can no longer work on generators or assist other survivors until another survivor comes to unhook them, wasting precious time for both survivors.

-Once a survivor is put on the hook, the killer is free to find another survivor to chase while other survivors are going for unhooks.

-If a survivor is put on their last hook, then they are dead and can no longer work on generators or go for unhooks.

-The survivors also have to waste additional time opening the exit gates before they can escape.

So, if we assume that the killer is always chasing one survivor at any given time, then that leaves only three survivors to work on all of the generators. Instead of taking 108 seconds to complete all of the generators, the survivors will now need around 140 seconds to complete all the generators, at the bare minimum (80 seconds to complete the first 3 generators, ~45 seconds to complete the fourth generator with two survivors working on it, and ~15 seconds for the last generator to be completed, if the third survivor repairs it on his own for the first 45 seconds, then the others join him after finishing the fourth generator). Then the survivors need to waste 20 seconds getting the Exit Gates open. So the killer has 144 seconds to kill all the survivors, and it will take 160 seconds before the survivors get the exit gates open.

If we add hooks to the equation, then things become even more favorable for the killer. Every time the killer gets a hook, a survivor needs to stop working on the generators to go unhook them. If a survivor is hooked 3 times, then they're permanently removed from the game and can no longer work on generators.

If we look at your equation and assume that the killer gets hooks as fast as technically possible (6 seconds to get 2 hits, 3 seconds to pickup, 3 seconds to hook), it quickly becomes apparent that the survivors won't be able to keep up. Every successful hook forces the hooked survivor to waste at least 6 seconds of their own time, and forces a different survivor to waste 3 seconds unhooking them. If we assume that the killer hooks every survivor in order and doesn't get any early kills, then the survivors will start dying, one by one, after the 9th hook, which will occur after 108 seconds if we just go by your math.

You can calculate all the details if you want, but I think my point still stands; the numbers only favor the Survivors if the Killer idles all game and doesn't chase or hook any of them.

My math is a massive simplification only used to demonstrate a base line which fundamentally favors the survivors. I stated that from the start of my post.

If you want to use real numbers based on the desired targets of bhvr. We can do that, and those will also continue to show that survivors are the power role or if there not its bhvrs intention to keep them or move them there.

Just one example, the stated desired avg chase time for a killer is ~30 secs. A chase lasting 30 secs represents the ability for the remaining 3 survivors to accomplish 22.5 % of their goals.

If all 4 survivors accomplish a 30 sec chase, that represents (from 4 total chases) 90% of the survivors goals. Assuming each chase ends in a hook, comparatively it represents on 33% of the killers goals.

We know that the desired avg chase time is around 30~ because of when and how much BL kicks in and what factors contribute to BL. BL1 kicks in at 15 secs and adds .2 m/s to the killers movement speed. Not really enough to prevent most simple loops, but enough to force pallet drop in exchange for a hit. That means on average for a single hit bhvr has accommodate a scenario which generally favors survivors in the circumstance in which the survivor makes no mistake providing them the opportunity to escape to the next pallet and force at least another 15 sec game till BL1. So 2 BL1s to secure a down isn't outside of bhvrs expectation for killer performance.

BHVR has also shown that they WANT killers to play fair. They discourage hook camping and tunneling. They do this because it isn't fun for the survivors, but also, ultimately it isn't fun for the killer and killers who hook camp or tunnel will still lose when they facing the single survivor who can fully take advantage of the survivors power position.

BHVR wants survivors to be the power role. Most people make the mistaking of thinking it would be better for the game if he were, it wouldn't be.

Others simple don't understand the game well enough to recognize the killer isn't the power role. And generally view the labeling of survivors as the power role as some kind of derogatory attack on survivors or an attempt to influence the devs to "nerf" survivors and "buff" killers.

The only thing bhvr should do to improve the fun for killers is reduce the importance of survival for the survivors so that when they execute in fullness the power they have, they don't do so at the expense of the killers ability to feel like he is the power role. No actual changes to the game balance are necessary to accomplish this in most cases. There are a couple of options for fixing it. One involves a change to survivor emblems and scoring. 1 involves a change to killer scoring and emblems.

my numbers were a base line, its for the purposes of providing a frame of reference.

Here is another example that provides a demonstration of the power role the survivors enjoy

the desired avg chase time is ~30 secs. This can be easily understood by the BL timers and the impact BL has on the game.

If all 4 survivors execute 30 sec chases that result in hooks. Assuming survivors only focus on gens. The survivors will have accomplished 90% of their goal, while the killer only 33%.

These are all worse case scenarios of course, but I'm only intending to demonstrate the nature of the roles in their current implementation when played by those of maximum skill.

In its most basic for the survivor is the power role, as such mistakes made by the survivor also have greater impact on the outcome of the game, which is why BHVR has provided so many tools for survivors to circumvent those mistakes.

Power role does not mean you dominate without effort or its the "easy" role. Playing survivor to perfection requires more skill then playing killer. But a perfect survivor team will always beat a perfect killer.

Well, again, your example leaves out a lot of important elements.

Getting a successful hook gives a LOT of advantages to the killer. It puts the hooked survivor out of commission, it forces another survivor to waste time traveling to the hook, unhooking them, walking away from the hook, and healing the unhooked survivor; it gives a noise notification once the survivor is unhooked, and it allows the killer to disrupt multiple survivors at once if he chooses to follow the notification.

The nature of the Killer's objective is fundamentally different from the survivors' objective. The more hooks you get, the more the game slows down and the easier it becomes to get another hook. The closer you get to achieving your goal, the harder it becomes for the survivors to achieve their goal.

Not to mention that many killers will prioritize getting a third hook on a single survivor if possible, rather than getting first hooks on multiple survivors. Once they've eliminated at least one survivor, the game swings heavily in their favor.

Also, I don't think it's true that a perfect survivor team will always beat a perfect killer. Here's an example video of a full tryhard SWF team (Featuring a designated looper with OoO) going up against a full tryhard Freddy, and Freddy ultimately emerged victorious:

With the help of an addon yes. Top tier killers obviously have a chance whilst lower cannot at all without a snowball and even then thats on the survivors for making mistakes more than killer for being good

It has never been easier to play killer, but just in theory. You have to keep in mind that players get better at playing the game and using the tools that are available to them. That's why some mechanics get changed/balanced only after a year and not immediately after they go live.

Also killer is not the stressful role because you only rely on yourself. It's stressful because of the short amount of time that survivors need to get their objective done. An extreme example: If nothing changed on the killer's side and survivors had to do 10 gens instead of 5, then killer would be the relaxed role and survivor the stressful one.

The OoO got greedy and assumed that taking a hit wouldn't be a big deal. He had a chance to drop the pallet, and he gave it up to extend the chase for longer and save the pallet for later. It says more about the Killer's skill than the survivors' skill, because the Killer anticipated that the survivor would get greedy, and equipped an add-on to punish them for it.

The survivor ran into an open area after the fake teleport because it's Shelter Woods; the whole map is an open area. Otzdarva made it a point to be unpredictable with his teleports throughout the entire game, so that the survivors never knew which direction he was coming from.

Anyone can do better in a match if they have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. But even an optimal group doesn't have the foresight to see the future.

If you're going to just make up flimsy exceptions every time I dispute your claim, then there's really no point in talking to you.