Amanda Young | Killed Remastered
Prologue
Hello, welcome to the thread series "Remastered" where I do my very best to make something balanced while keeping the main aspects of that something! Therefore, my goal in each thread is to not make something UP, OP, and something OP, UP. Instead, I find the best of both worlds such keeping things fun and interactive for both sides.
In this thread, I'm going over Amanda Young since the community thinks she not a viable killer anymore due to the EGC changes.
Amanda Young: Jigsaw's Baptism
Ambush
Movement speed while crouched is increased to 100%.
Ambushing an occupied survivor will automatically grab them.
Charging an ambush no longer makes a lion noise, that's now played at the end of her charging animation.
Reverse Bear Trap
Reverse Bear Traps have two states, passive and active. When the border of the timer circle is green, the RBT is passive and if the border is red, the RBT is active.
RBT have a 60 second passive timer, and once the timer expires, the RBT will wait for a completed generator to progress itself to the active state. If a generator has been completed before the passive timer expires, the RBT will automatically progress to the active state once the passive timer expires.
RBT have a 120 second active timer, and once the timer expires, the survivor is killed on the spot.
Both passive and active states prevent survivors from leaving through the Exit Gates, but the EGC is slowed by 50% when a survivor is has a RBT on them.
Add-ons
They will mainly do the following:
Increase the time it takes to search a Jigsaw Box by 1(Common)/2(Uncommon)/3(Rare)/4(Very Rare) seconds.
Reduce the passive timer by 10(Common)/15(Uncommon)/20(Rare)/25(Very Rare) seconds.
Grant Jigsaw Boxes the ability to have counterclockwise skill checks.
Odds of a skill check going counter clockwise is 25%(Common)/35%(Uncommon)/45%(Rare)/55%(Very Rare).
Causes the Broken(Uncommon)/Mangled(Rare)/Exhaustion(Rare) effects when a survivor has a RBT on them.
(Ultra Rare) Make survivors lose vision of all Jigsaw Box auras after their passive timer expires.
They can now see Jigsaw Box auras within a 16 meter range around them.
(Ultra Rare) When a survivor removes a RBT, you will gain a RBT back into your inventory.
(Very Rare) While crouched, your breathing and the noises made by moving vegetation is silenced.
When a survivor searches a Jigsaw Box, that Jigsaw Box will display a yellow aura.
(Very Rare) When a survivor's RBT enters the active state, they will scream and suffer from the Oblivious status effect for 45 seconds.
Epilogue
Please understand that all numbers are just placeholders and can be changed where see fit. However, if you disagree with a concept, then feel free to initiate a discussion with me about it! 😁🤗
Comments
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Sounds really good, actually. Sadly won't happen because they are milking this cow and the cow is pretty old, not worth the vet costs.
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“Ambushing an occupied survivor will automatically grab them” Why isn’t this a thing already?! I love it.
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Do you understand the RBT changes? It might be hard to understand because I'm not the best at putting thoughts into words. 😂
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I was a little lost on the passive part and it actually does lol.
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Everything here be just my opinion.
Increase crouch speed to 100% - 100% miiiight be a bit too much? I'm down for increasing crouch speed, but maybe to, like, 96% or so. Maybe I am wrong and 100% is okay, though. Since the numbers are just placeholders, I'll say that I am fine with increasing crouch movement speed a bit.
Auto-grab occupied survivors while ambushing - I actually think it is okay to have to uncrouch to grab someone. It gives the Pig the choice of either going for the ambush or going for the grab but not both. As long as it is not better to uncrouch just to hit someone idle period, I don't think we need to do something like this.
Lion sound moved to end of charge - Thumbs up from me.
Passive/Active RBT states - Ehhhh, can't say I approve of this. Unless I am misunderstanding this, to me, this just reads like a glorified "increase the death timer by 30 seconds compared to how it is now," which I can't get behind. If you reduce the passive timer down to 30 seconds, though, then this kinda just becomes identical to how RBTs function now as far as timers. All you are really doing, from my point of view, is just rearranging when the timer is counting down and when it is idle. Could you elaborate on how your idea is not simply just "RBTs effectively have a timer of 180 seconds?" Or, I guess to put it into less of a number talk, how is this idea differentiate RBT death timers from how they currently function Then maybe I can see what I am misunderstanding.
EGC timer slowed by 50% while someone has an RBT - I actually think only slowing the timer still has the potential to put the Survivor in an unwinnable situation. I think you need to pause the timer instead to make this a safe thing to do (which, mind you, I am a strong advocte of).
Add-Ons
Increase the time search for Boxes by 1/2/3/4 seconds - I think 7 extra seconds can be worrisome (granted, numbers are placeholders, as you said). Currently, the two Gear add-ons raise the search time to 17ish seconds, whereas this can raise it up to 19. Maybe this would be fine with the increased timer, but as I am not a fan of that atm, I am not sure how I feel about this. Maybe if you just stuck with 3 and 2 (resulting in 5 seconds, only EVER so slightly worse than current Bag + Crate), it would be safe.
Reduce passive timer by 10/15/20/25 seconds - This hinges on my understanding of the passive/active system being correct, but I don't think any of them are worth using, not even together. Raising the total time to 180 seconds makes these not do anything meaningful. I know the numbers are placeholders, but I can't judge these add-ons without the numbers.
Counterclock-wise Skill Checks - I don't think these would be worth using. Doc at least screws up the skill checks in other ways to make CCW skill checks more annoying, but I think in a vacuum, just mixing in CCW skill checks with regular ones isn't going to accomplish much against good Survivors.
RBTs inflicting status effects - I don't like them as they currently are, and they seem no different here, so I don't like them here either.
Shutting off Jigsaw Box Auras after passive timer runs out - This is an interesting one. I don't really like the passive/active system, but this seems pretty cool to me.
When a Survivor removes an RBT, regain one - Not sure how I feel about effectively infinite RBTs with no strings attached. I think you would have to reduce the starting inventory as a downside.
Silence vegitation/breathing while crouched - Noooot sure this is worth an add-on? Particularly a very rare add-on? Could be mistaken on this one.
RBT activation causes scream + 45 sec Oblivious - Ehhhh, this kinda just promotes tunneling the Trapped Survivor and runs counterproductive to the goal of RBTs (stalling), which is my problem with current add-ons like Slow-Release Toxin and Face Mask.
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I seen your comment, and will reply later to clear up any confusion. 😁🤗
Currently, I'm super tired, if I tried to explain anything right now, I'll likely make it a lot worse! 😂
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I'm not done with everything, will @ you when I finish.
I couldn't finish this because of a stupid forum bug, this happened to me twice.
Increase crouch speed to 100% - 100% miiiight be a bit too much? I'm down for increasing crouch speed, but maybe to, like, 96% or so. Maybe I am wrong and 100% is okay, though. Since the numbers are just placeholders, I'll say that I am fine with increasing crouch movement speed a bit.
I don't know exactly how much we should buff Amanda's crouch speed; all I know is that it needs a movement speed buff because it takes forever to set up for an Ambush.
The main reason why 100% comes in mind is because it's not faster than the survivor's running speed, so you can't chase a survivor using Ambush only. To be sure what to buff her movement speed to, we will need to test some things on the PTB.
Auto-grab occupied survivors while ambushing - I actually think it is okay to have to uncrouch to grab someone. It gives the Pig the choice of either going for the ambush or going for the grab but not both. As long as it is not better to uncrouch just to hit someone idle period, I don't think we need to do something like this.
This is where I disagree, because uncrouching allows you to do both already. You can attempt to grab someone, and if it fails, you get a hit anyways.
Why would I surprise a survivor by Ambushing them when uncrouching gives me the chance to grab someone? Ambushing isn't worth it, you always want to uncrouch when surprising a survivor, and that's the problem — uncrouching is simply better than Ambushing in every way in terms of surprising survivors.
Lion sound moved to end of charge - Thumbs up from me.
That's great, and it's the same reasoning for "Uncrouching vs Ambushing" because uncrouching is quieter than using Ambush. At least the delay in the "Lion Sound" can potentially get you a hit on a survivor with an Exhaustion Perk.
Passive/Active RBT states - Ehhhh, can't say I approve of this. Unless I am misunderstanding this, to me, this just reads like a glorified "increase the death timer by 30 seconds compared to how it is now," which I can't get behind. If you reduce the passive timer down to 30 seconds, though, then this kinda just becomes identical to how RBTs function now as far as timers. All you are really doing, from my point of view, is just rearranging when the timer is counting down and when it is idle. Could you elaborate on how your idea is not simply just "RBTs effectively have a timer of 180 seconds?" Or, I guess to put it into less of a number talk, how is this idea differentiate RBT death timers from how they currently function Then maybe I can see what I am misunderstanding.
Actually, I think you understand everything, but not considering a few key factors.
Long story short, if you don't take the RBT seriously, you're risking getting yourself killed because you will have less time to remove the RBT when it becomes active (which can be as little as 2 minutes). However, if you take the RBT seriously or you didn't get the chance to take the RBT seriously (Hooked, Downed, or in a chase), you will be rewarded with more time to search Jigsaw Boxes.
I know, I know, if the survivor takes the RBT seriously and tries to get it off ASAP, they get 3 minutes to remove the RBT. However, keep in mind that RBT are supposed to stall the survivors and are only supposed to be lethal when they don't take the RBT seriously. I think these changes work well with the theme of Amanda Young, and the core of what Jigsaw does.
The survivors have a choice to use the passive timer for whatever they want, but that comes with a consequence.
EGC timer slowed by 50% while someone has an RBT - I actually think only slowing the timer still has the potential to put the Survivor in an unwinnable situation. I think you need to pause the timer instead to make this a safe thing to do (which, mind you, I am a strong advocte of).
Recently, I did some testing with the RBT and EGC, and usually, survivors with an active RBT who didn't start on Jigsaw Boxes will almost always die to the EGC. The timer didn't slow down to give them a fair chance.
Therefore, make RBT prevent survivors from leaving through the Exit Gates, but slowing the EGC by 50% should allow more counterplay. Besides, survivors already 99% the Exit Gates, and if someone messes up, they have 4 minutes to remove the RBT and escape.
I don't like pausing the EGC because there will be situations where a survivor will get trapped at 1% left on the EGC. Then, we have a stalemate, if the trapped survivor attempts to remove the RBT, they will get sacrificed on the spot as soon as they remove the RBT, so they won't remove the RBT at all. The killer can find the survivor, but that's going to take F.O.R.E.V.E.R.
At that point, the EGC is not doing its job by ending the game.
Increase the time search for Boxes by 1/2/3/4 seconds - I think 7 extra seconds can be worrisome (granted, numbers are placeholders, as you said). Currently, the two Gear add-ons raise the search time to 17ish seconds, whereas this can raise it up to 19. Maybe this would be fine with the increased timer, but as I am not a fan of that atm, I am not sure how I feel about this. Maybe if you just stuck with 3 and 2 (resulting in 5 seconds, only EVER so slightly worse than current Bag + Crate), it would be safe.
I think this is all fair since survivors are given plenty of time to remove the RBT, and if they don't take it seriously, they will likely die to the RBT. Through, RNG is always a factor in a survivor's death, if someone doesn't take the RBT seriously with these add-ons, it's not GG. Plus, don't forget about the generator requirement to make the RBT active once the passive timer expires. If a generator isn't completed, survivors who don't take the RBT seriously will survive anyways.
Reduce passive timer by 10/15/20/25 seconds - This hinges on my understanding of the passive/active system being correct, but I don't think any of them are worth using, not even together. Raising the total time to 180 seconds makes these not do anything meaningful. I know the numbers are placeholders, but I can't judge these add-ons without the numbers.
Basically, this gives the trapped survivor less time to make use of the passive timer. Remember, the passive timer is supposed to give survivors who want to get rid of the RBT, more time to do so before the RBT pressures them. Think of the passive timer as a reward for the survivors who treat the RBT seriously.
Stacking both add-ons will give the trapped survivor a 15 second passive timer. This effectively reduces the reward for treating the RBT seriously, but shouldn't be lethal if the trapped survivor plays their cards right.
Counterclock-wise Skill Checks - I don't think these would be worth using. Doc at least screws up the skill checks in other ways to make CCW skill checks more annoying, but I think in a vacuum, just mixing in CCW skill checks with regular ones isn't going to accomplish much against good Survivors.
Well, it's an add-on, so survivors won't always expect Amanda to run it, and if it's not that good, we could add a mini Huntress Lullaby to the Jigsaw Boxes since they aren't affected by Huntress Lullaby in the first place.
RBTs inflicting status effects - I don't like them as they currently are, and they seem no different here, so I don't like them here either.
Eh, it doesn't feel impactful because we aren't the ones experiencing the effects.
Shutting off Jigsaw Box Auras after passive timer runs out - This is an interesting one. I don't really like the passive/active system, but this seems pretty cool to me.
Like I said, the passive timer rewards survivors who want to treat their RBT seriously and punish those who don't want to treat their RBT seriously.
This add-on amplifies this effect to punish survivors who don't take their RBT seriously, but if you have good memory, this add-on doesn't matter.
When a Survivor removes an RBT, regain one - Not sure how I feel about effectively infinite RBTs with no strings attached. I think you would have to reduce the starting inventory as a downside.
I would be fine with that, how many do you think we should remove?
Silence vegitation/breathing while crouched - Noooot sure this is worth an add-on? Particularly a very rare add-on? Could be mistaken on this one.
You missed the second part of this add-on:
"(Very Rare) While crouched, your breathing and the noises made by moving vegetation is silenced.
When a survivor searches a Jigsaw Box, that Jigsaw Box will display a yellow aura."
RBT activation causes scream + 45 sec Oblivious - Ehhhh, this kinda just promotes tunneling the Trapped Survivor and runs counterproductive to the goal of RBTs (stalling), which is my problem with current add-ons like Slow-Release Toxin and Face Mask.
If the survivor doesn't know if the killer is coming to them, how can they rule out that it's safe to search a Jigsaw Box?
This can cause survivors to be paranoid and waste more of their time. If they don't take risks or use context clues, it could end up getting them killed but if you decide to go after them, the timer simply stops.
Post edited by NMCKE on0 -
I will certainly respond to this when I get the chance (which may not be until tomorrow), but rest assured that I have read your response in full.
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Awesome! :)
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don't know exactly how much we should buff Amanda's crouch speed; all I know is that it needs a movement speed buff because it takes forever to set up for an Ambush.
The main reason why 100% comes in mind is because it's not faster than the survivor's running speed, so you can't chase a survivor using Ambush only. To be sure what to buff her movement speed to, we will need to test some things on the PTB.
Fair. For all I know, 100% could totally be fine. PTB testing would be the best way to figure that one out, yes.
This is where I disagree, because uncrouching allows you to do both already. You can attempt to grab someone, and if it fails, you get a hit anyways.
Why would I surprise a survivor by Ambushing them when uncrouching gives me the chance to grab someone? Ambushing isn't worth it, you always want to uncrouch when surprising a survivor, and that's the problem — uncrouching is simply better than Ambushing in every way in terms of surprising survivors.
I guess the way I see it, by moving the lion roar to the end, you're kinda buffing the surprise capabilities of the ambush to make it stronger than just uncrouching and attacking. So I was kinda thinking "you ambush if you want the easier hit and you uncrouch if you want to go for the grab". But you make a fair point about just being able to have your cake and eat it by just uncrouching since a failed grab is probably just a hit anyways. I guess when you look at it like that, there isn't really anything wrong with ambushing always being the correct decision if the Survivor hasn't caught on to your presence, since the alternative would still be that ambushing is never the correct decision, which is stupid. Alright, I'm on board with this idea now.
Actually, I think you understand everything, but not considering a few key factors.
Long story short, if you don't take the RBT seriously, you're risking getting yourself killed because you will have less time to remove the RBT when it becomes active (which can be as little as 2 minutes). However, if you take the RBT seriously or you didn't get the chance to take the RBT seriously (Hooked, Downed, or in a chase), you will be rewarded with more time to search Jigsaw Boxes.
I know, I know, if the survivor takes the RBT seriously and tries to get it off ASAP, they get 3 minutes to remove the RBT. However, keep in mind that RBT are supposed to stall the survivors and are only supposed to be lethal when they don't take the RBT seriously. I think these changes work well with the theme of Amanda Young, and the core of what Jigsaw does.
The survivors have a choice to use the passive timer for whatever they want, but that comes with a consequence.
I know that numbers are not finalized, but let's go with the 60 second passive timer and 120 second active timer. Assume we're not using any of the add-ons that reduce the passive timer.
We can probably categorize Survivors into 3 groups: Good, Average, Bad
The bad Survivor would probably do as you say and not take the RBT seriously, letting the passive timer run down while they do whatever until the active timer starts running down. This only gives them 2 minutes to do box searching, which is basically the current RBT + Tampered Timer.
The average Survivor would likely start hammering out boxes on the first chance they get. This gives them the solid 3 minutes to get their Trap off, which is worse than the current RBT.
The good Survivor would probably spend 30 seconds doing whatever they can do from wherever they are (heal, start up a nearby gen, maybe search a chest or do a totem), and then from there, they would start to hammer out the boxes. This gives them the same amount of time as the current RBT, except they also got a free grace period to do whatever they want. This also makes it worse than the current RBT.
Currently, I am off the opinion that Reverse Bear Traps as they are now suffer from consistency issues. When they work, they are solid time wasters. When they don't, your power is neutered that much more. With that in mind, I would argue that this change at best does not fix the issues (at least, what I feel are issues) with the current Reverse Bear Traps and at worse simply makes them worse against non-potatos/non-greedy players.
Recently, I did some testing with the RBT and EGC, and usually, survivors with an active RBT who didn't start on Jigsaw Boxes will almost always die to the EGC. The timer didn't slow down to give them a fair chance.
Therefore, make RBT prevent survivors from leaving through the Exit Gates, but slowing the EGC by 50% should allow more counterplay. Besides, survivors already 99% the Exit Gates, and if someone messes up, they have 4 minutes to remove the RBT and escape.
I don't like pausing the EGC because there will be situations where a survivor will get trapped at 1% left on the EGC. Then, we have a stalemate, if the trapped survivor attempts to remove the RBT, they will get sacrificed on the spot as soon as they remove the RBT, so they won't remove the RBT at all. The killer can find the survivor, but that's going to take F.O.R.E.V.E.R.
At that point, the EGC is not doing its job by ending the game.
The way I see it, if you just hardcore tunnel the Trapped Survivor while the timer is counting down, even while slowed down, you can force the Survivor into a completely unescapable position (sure, they might have enough time to do boxes, but then they won't have enough time to make it to the gate), which I don't really like. You can argue that they are in an unescapable position with the paused EGC timer still because the Killer simply won't let them go, but you could MAYBE argue that if the Trapped Survivor manages to shake off the Killer somehow, they could potentially then find the time to do the boxes without having to worry about the EGC timer. IMO, the safest way to go about it without promoting opportunity for abuse on the Killer's end is to simply make it so the timer can still go active once all the gens are done (which, I guess in the context of your idea, would be to make it so the RBTs automatically become active once the passive timer runs out) and to pause the EGC timer. That way, there's still a timer counting down to their demise, but the trapped Survivor does not have to worry about a second timer that they can't do anything about.
I think this is all fair since survivors are given plenty of time to remove the RBT, and if they don't take it seriously, they will likely die to the RBT. Through, RNG is always a factor in a survivor's death, if someone doesn't take the RBT seriously with these add-ons, it's not GG. Plus, don't forget about the generator requirement to make the RBT active once the passive timer expires. If a generator isn't completed, survivors who don't take the RBT seriously will survive anyways.
I think my concern goes a bit beyond simply spending more time trying to get the trap off. It's not just an additional 7 seconds per box to get the Trap off; it's an additional 7 second per box just standing around being open to being spotted by the Pig if you are using the strongest add-ons. If at any point the trapped Survivor gets off the Box, they have to start the search on a Box from scratch. And if the Pig approaches, they have to either move away and suffer an additional penalty searching or just take a hit from the Pig. An additional 7 seconds means the Pig has 19 seconds per box to interrupt them for even a second. Just one single success doing so can throw off the Survivor considerably if they aren't lucky with getting the Trap off. This is already doable currently with Bag of Gears and Crate of Gears (which is why I'm okay with your 2 and 3 second add-ons), but my worry is that the additional 2-ish (technically just a pinch less) per box compared to those two add-ons can prove to be problematic. Granted, with the 3-minutes total your RBT idea has, maybe the concern is mitigated, but it's hard for me to be okay with that when I have issues with the passive/active idea as presented as well. Though of course, it is entirely possible that I could be off-base with this and that the extra seconds ends up being fine.
Basically, this gives the trapped survivor less time to make use of the passive timer. Remember, the passive timer is supposed to give survivors who want to get rid of the RBT, more time to do so before the RBT pressures them. Think of the passive timer as a reward for the survivors who treat the RBT seriously.
Stacking both add-ons will give the trapped survivor a 15 second passive timer. This effectively reduces the reward for treating the RBT seriously, but shouldn't be lethal if the trapped survivor plays their cards right.
Here's the thing: Unless the current RBT timer starts up before the Survivor is off the hook, Survivors wearing RBTs already are under not a lot of pressure if they don't wait to start doing boxes. Your passive/active timer with those numbers reduces that pressure even further. So all these add-ons are doing are adding back the pressure that was basically taken away from the Traps in the first place. And even if you use the two strongest ones, the total minimum amount of time you are giving the Survivors is still higher than the time a Survivor would currently have with just Tampered Timer, an add-on that already kinda does nothing unless someone actually DIES to the RBT. Considering that no one reasonable would put off doing Boxes if they see the passive timer draining like a mofo, the end result for the two strongest add-ons is still weaker than one current add-on.
I think the problem with all this is that your intent is supposed to be that you are giving Survivors the chance to figure out how much risk they are willing to play with, but not only are you minimizing the pressure of consequences to people who choose to play it safe compared to current RBTs, but you are giving more risk for people to safely play with before the pressure of consequences become on-par with current RBTs. I do not think that the RBTs need to be made safer compared to how they currently are, but that is what is happening in practice.
Well, it's an add-on, so survivors won't always expect Amanda to run it, and if it's not that good, we could add a mini Huntress Lullaby to the Jigsaw Boxes since they aren't affected by Huntress Lullaby in the first place.
I personally have a dislike for add-ons that effectively function as worse versions of existing perks (ex. almost every current Mangled add-on that exists). Personally, I'd rather just allow Huntress Lullaby to affect boxes (since it currently does not, to my understanding) and just have the add-ons do something completely different (preferably something not Skill-Check related). This is more personal preference than anything, to be fair.
Eh, it doesn't feel impactful because we aren't the ones experiencing the effects.
I think it's not that simple. The thing about this series of add-ons is that they do nothing at all to hinder the Survivor while they search boxes. They are only relevant when the Pig is actively hounding them. Mangled is arguably an exception, but that kinda goes back to what I said before about add-ons being worse versions of existing perks. If the Pig does not actively harass these Survivors while they have Traps on, the add-ons do nothing at all because once the Traps are off, they can just go about their business as usual. If the Pig DOES actively go after them to take advantage of the status conditions, however, then we have a different problem where the Pig is having to tunnel the trapped Survivors to make use of those add-ons. This is bad because the point of the RBTs is to stall for time and slow down gen progression, and if the Pig is chasing the people with the Traps, the Pig is reaping none of the stall benefit from said Traps. It's basically putting the Pig in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
I would be fine with that, how many do you think we should remove?
I would personally say no more than 2.
You missed the second part of this add-on:
"(Very Rare) While crouched, your breathing and the noises made by moving vegetation is silenced.
When a survivor searches a Jigsaw Box, that Jigsaw Box will display a yellow aura."
I did indeed miss the second part. My apologies. My concern with the second part is that the Pig can now accurately track which boxes a Survivor has already checked. If three boxes are done and the Trap is still on, the Pig now knows for certain that they can simply defend the last box like all hell and make sure the Trapped Survivor can never get the Trap off. Is this necessarily strategically sound? Probably not. But I worry this would invite trollish/griefy gameplay tactics that doesn't really have an answer to it. Granted, this is already possible with the fundamental design of RBTs through sheer dumb luck, but I'm not sure how I feel about increasing the efficiency of such a tactic.
If the survivor doesn't know if the killer is coming to them, how can they rule out that it's safe to search a Jigsaw Box?
This can cause survivors to be paranoid and waste more of their time. If they don't take risks or use context clues, it could end up getting them killed but if you decide to go after them, the timer simply stops.
Well, the Survivor kinda already has that going on with the Pig crouching to them, so the Survivors by default always have to worry at least somewhat about being snuck up on due to no Terror Radius. What this add-on does beyond giving away the Survivor's immediate location is give the Pig an opportunity to not have to crouch to potentially catch that Survivor by surprise. But as is the case with the status condition add-ons, that is only really relevant when the Pig is actively trying to take advantage of the add-on and effectively tunneling the Survivor, which runs counterproductive to the goal of the Reverse Bear Traps.
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I read this, will respond later! 🐷
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I don't understand the point of the passive timer that seems almost like a nerf to me unless I misunderstood something.
Moving the roar to the end of the ambush is nice, I like that.
But 100% movement speed is a bit much. The speed could use a buff, yes but that's too much.
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Id love to see those ambush changes. Its too hard to hit someone on a gen when she roars first. More movement speed on crouch would be nice too.
Not sure about that passive timer thing. Would be fun to test it tho.
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Edit: The darn glitch happened again, I'll @ you when I'm done with this comment. 🤬
Fair. For all I know, 100% could totally be fine. PTB testing would be the best way to figure that one out, yes.
I'm glad we can agree to a movement speed buff for Amanda while she's crouched! 🐷
I guess the way I see it, by moving the lion roar to the end, you're kinda buffing the surprise capabilities of the ambush to make it stronger than just uncrouching and attacking. So I was kinda thinking "you ambush if you want the easier hit and you uncrouch if you want to go for the grab". But you make a fair point about just being able to have your cake and eat it by just uncrouching since a failed grab is probably just a hit anyways. I guess when you look at it like that, there isn't really anything wrong with ambushing always being the correct decision if the Survivor hasn't caught on to your presence, since the alternative would still be that ambushing is never the correct decision, which is stupid. Alright, I'm on board with this idea now.
Awesome, imagine Ambushing a survivor and automatically grabbing them if they are occupied. If you know they have DS active, then of course, you can just lunge attack them to make sure they don't get to use it on you. 🐷
I know that numbers are not finalized, but let's go with the 60 second passive timer and 120 second active timer. Assume we're not using any of the add-ons that reduce the passive timer.
We can probably categorize Survivors into 3 groups: Good, Average, Bad
The bad Survivor would probably do as you say and not take the RBT seriously, letting the passive timer run down while they do whatever until the active timer starts running down. This only gives them 2 minutes to do box searching, which is basically the current RBT + Tampered Timer.
The average Survivor would likely start hammering out boxes on the first chance they get. This gives them the solid 3 minutes to get their Trap off, which is worse than the current RBT.
The good Survivor would probably spend 30 seconds doing whatever they can do from wherever they are (heal, start up a nearby gen, maybe search a chest or do a totem), and then from there, they would start to hammer out the boxes. This gives them the same amount of time as the current RBT, except they also got a free grace period to do whatever they want. This also makes it worse than the current RBT.
Currently, I am off the opinion that Reverse Bear Traps as they are now suffer from consistency issues. When they work, they are solid time wasters. When they don't, your power is neutered that much more. With that in mind, I would argue that this change at best does not fix the issues (at least, what I feel are issues) with the current Reverse Bear Traps and at worse simply makes them worse against non-potatos/non-greedy players.
I see exactly what you're doing, survivors will find the sweet spot to be as efficient as possible while they have a RBT on them. This can make the RBT less of a threat, which can mean they won't slow the game down as much. You make a good point, which is why I love receiving constructive feedback.
My goal with the passive timer was to prevent unfair scenarios where you get killed by a RBT because you got extremely unlucky. Therefore, since you made that point, the passive timer will immediately expire once the trapped survivor performs any basic action:
- Repairing
- Healing
- Sabotaging
- Cleansing
- Searching
- Opening
- Unhooking
This doesn't include actions survivors perform on you such as healing or unhooking.
Before, I wanted the passive timer, by Jigsaw's Lore, give survivors the ability to make a choice and decide how much risk they want to play with (while removing unfair scenarios if they don't want to take any risk).
Now, if they attempt to do anything while the passive timer is active, it will immediately expire. This sounds really strong, but keep in mind that's their choice and the active timer doesn't start until a generator is completed. For what we know, survivors can have an infinite amount of time to search Jigsaw Boxes since generators aren't being completed (and arguably at that point, the RBT are doing their job).
The way I see it, if you just hardcore tunnel the Trapped Survivor while the timer is counting down, even while slowed down, you can force the Survivor into a completely unescapable position (sure, they might have enough time to do boxes, but then they won't have enough time to make it to the gate), which I don't really like. You can argue that they are in an unescapable position with the paused EGC timer still because the Killer simply won't let them go, but you could MAYBE argue that if the Trapped Survivor manages to shake off the Killer somehow, they could potentially then find the time to do the boxes without having to worry about the EGC timer. IMO, the safest way to go about it without promoting opportunity for abuse on the Killer's end is to simply make it so the timer can still go active once all the gens are done (which, I guess in the context of your idea, would be to make it so the RBTs automatically become active once the passive timer runs out) and to pause the EGC timer. That way, there's still a timer counting down to their demise, but the trapped Survivor does not have to worry about a second timer that they can't do anything about.
I agree with this compromise since the survivor won't be in an unwinnable situation where they can't control the EGC. At least with your suggestion, RBT remain powerful during the endgame while they aren't completely screwed of the killer chases them since both timers would be paused and possible stalemates are removed.
One gripe still, but I could careless about this since the game will end eventually and they can escape through the hatch. You can still use a RBT at the last few seconds of the EGC to cheese their death since like I said before, screwed if they do and screwed if they don't. Again, I don't care about this, but I thought it's worth mentioning to you. 🐷
I think my concern goes a bit beyond simply spending more time trying to get the trap off. It's not just an additional 7 seconds per box to get the Trap off; it's an additional 7 second per box just standing around being open to being spotted by the Pig if you are using the strongest add-ons. If at any point the trapped Survivor gets off the Box, they have to start the search on a Box from scratch. And if the Pig approaches, they have to either move away and suffer an additional penalty searching or just take a hit from the Pig. An additional 7 seconds means the Pig has 19 seconds per box to interrupt them for even a second. Just one single success doing so can throw off the Survivor considerably if they aren't lucky with getting the Trap off. This is already doable currently with Bag of Gears and Crate of Gears (which is why I'm okay with your 2 and 3 second add-ons), but my worry is that the additional 2-ish (technically just a pinch less) per box compared to those two add-ons can prove to be problematic. Granted, with the 3-minutes total your RBT idea has, maybe the concern is mitigated, but it's hard for me to be okay with that when I have issues with the passive/active idea as presented as well. Though of course, it is entirely possible that I could be off-base with this and that the extra seconds ends up being fine.
That's why we have a passive timer to prevent unfair scenarios, they have a surplus amount of time to remove the RBT in the case this happens, plus the time between when the passive timer expires and when the active timer is triggered by a generator.
17 seconds with 4 boxes add up to 68 seconds, which gives the survivor 1:52 to handle the killer's shenanigans. However, if they decided to take the risk, they will only have 0:52 to handle the killer's shenanigans. This is assuming a generator was already completed to trigger the active timer once the passive timer expires, and keep in mind, the passive timer follows the same rules as the current RBT timer in terms of when it will pause (in a chase, hooked, or downed).
I think the survivor has plenty of opportunities to prevent the killer for getting a kill this way, and to add, the killer gets punished since they have no pressure towards other survivors.
Here's the thing: Unless the current RBT timer starts up before the Survivor is off the hook, Survivors wearing RBTs already are under not a lot of pressure if they don't wait to start doing boxes. Your passive/active timer with those numbers reduces that pressure even further. So all these add-ons are doing are adding back the pressure that was basically taken away from the Traps in the first place. And even if you use the two strongest ones, the total minimum amount of time you are giving the Survivors is still higher than the time a Survivor would currently have with just Tampered Timer, an add-on that already kinda does nothing unless someone actually DIES to the RBT. Considering that no one reasonable would put off doing Boxes if they see the passive timer draining like a mofo, the end result for the two strongest add-ons is still weaker than one current add-on.
I think the problem with all this is that your intent is supposed to be that you are giving Survivors the chance to figure out how much risk they are willing to play with, but not only are you minimizing the pressure of consequences to people who choose to play it safe compared to current RBTs, but you are giving more risk for people to safely play with before the pressure of consequences become on-par with current RBTs. I do not think that the RBTs need to be made safer compared to how they currently are, but that is what is happening in practice.
I see what you are saying, so I'll add on to one of my comments about saying any basic action the survivor does will automatically cause the passive timer to expire.
I think these add-ons should increase the risk and overall, decrease the general time survivors have on the RBT.
I'll redo my suggestions for these add-ons and I'd like you to tell me if this is any better. If not, I want you to suggest something to me and we can go from there.
These two are in one add-on:
Increases the passive timer by 5(Common)/8(Uncommon)/13(Rare)/18(Very Rare) seconds.
AND
Decreases the active timer by 7(Common)/12(Uncommon)/19(Rare)/26(Very Rare) seconds.
With both of the strongest add-ons stacked, here's what both timers will look like:
Passive: 1:31
Active: 1:15
Total: 2:46
This further encourages survivors to waste time doing Jigsaw Boxes because they don't know if Amanda is running these add-ons or not. Even if they get hit with this combo, RNG can always save them, so it's not an immediate game over. 🐷
I personally have a dislike for add-ons that effectively function as worse versions of existing perks (ex. almost every current Mangled add-on that exists). Personally, I'd rather just allow Huntress Lullaby to affect boxes (since it currently does not, to my understanding) and just have the add-ons do something completely different (preferably something not Skill-Check related). This is more personal preference than anything, to be fair.
That's fair, I completely agree with your statement that add-ons shouldn't be copies of perks. However, I think there should be some add-ons that affect Jigsaw Boxes, but currently, I don't have any ideas at the moment — feel free to suggest an idea! 🐷
I think it's not that simple. The thing about this series of add-ons is that they do nothing at all to hinder the Survivor while they search boxes. They are only relevant when the Pig is actively hounding them. Mangled is arguably an exception, but that kinda goes back to what I said before about add-ons being worse versions of existing perks. If the Pig does not actively harass these Survivors while they have Traps on, the add-ons do nothing at all because once the Traps are off, they can just go about their business as usual. If the Pig DOES actively go after them to take advantage of the status conditions, however, then we have a different problem where the Pig is having to tunnel the trapped Survivors to make use of those add-ons. This is bad because the point of the RBTs is to stall for time and slow down gen progression, and if the Pig is chasing the people with the Traps, the Pig is reaping none of the stall benefit from said Traps. It's basically putting the Pig in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
What if the status effects are applied after the survivor removes their RBT?
I know, you don't like add-ons that serve as budget perks, but it would solve the problem you see with status effect add-ons that require you to chase trapped survivors to gain value (at the cost of removing your stall value).
I would personally say no more than 2.
Awesome, we have an agreement, and now, infinite RBT are possible!
Always wanted this to be an add-on in my honest opinion, so hopefully a developer will see this thread! 🐷
I did indeed miss the second part. My apologies. My concern with the second part is that the Pig can now accurately track which boxes a Survivor has already checked. If three boxes are done and the Trap is still on, the Pig now knows for certain that they can simply defend the last box like all hell and make sure the Trapped Survivor can never get the Trap off. Is this necessarily strategically sound? Probably not. But I worry this would invite trollish/griefy gameplay tactics that doesn't really have an answer to it. Granted, this is already possible with the fundamental design of RBTs through sheer dumb luck, but I'm not sure how I feel about increasing the efficiency of such a tactic.
This can be fixed by adding a rule to the first and last boxes.
Survivors can never free themselves after searching the first Jigsaw, and commonly, the survivor won't have to search the last Jigsaw Box. Commonly is highlighted because I'm implying it's still possible for the trapped survivor to search the last Jigsaw Box.
Well, the Survivor kinda already has that going on with the Pig crouching to them, so the Survivors by default always have to worry at least somewhat about being snuck up on due to no Terror Radius. What this add-on does beyond giving away the Survivor's immediate location is give the Pig an opportunity to not have to crouch to potentially catch that Survivor by surprise. But as is the case with the status condition add-ons, that is only really relevant when the Pig is actively trying to take advantage of the add-on and effectively tunneling the Survivor, which runs counterproductive to the goal of the Reverse Bear Traps
I made this add-on with the intention that the survivor will waste time guessing if the killer is coming to them, but you make a good point about tunneling.
Therefore, since we don't want that in the game for obvious reasons, we will need a add-on to replace this one. I happen to come up with an add-on that punishes survivors who complete generators to activate other survivors' timer.
What do you think:
(Very Rare) Survivors who complete generators and active other survivors' RBT, will have their RBT immediately activate without the need of a generator upon being trapped.
Post edited by NMCKE on0
