What WOULD make you be ok with the ruin rework?
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secondary objectives that slow down the early game for survivors.
like finding parts for gens.
its just dumb that they took away something essential to many killers without addressing the obvious design flaw these tried to "fix" using ruin.
80+% of red rank games had ruin. that shows something - and its not that the perk is overused and therefore too strong.
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Make Brutal Strength cause regression on Gen kicks... not to PGTW but a regression bonus none the less
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Even when the patch comes out people will still complain. People who play this game are pretty awful at it tbh. They will not alter how they play at all and then say "not having ruin broke the game. Killer is unplayable!" This is all because they were already bad at the game and used ruin as a crutch. Will have to see how actual good killer mains do with it to see if it is better or worse
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Return it back and make all totems invincible for 2 mins (can be perk, something like Corrupt intervention). Other option is to make all totems burning so survivors will not know which one is enchanted (can be perk as well). Best and last option is rework gen speeds, toolboxes and connected perks so survivors will not repair gen in 30s. Killer cannot even apply pressure before find first survivor. Problem is not within Ruin but in need of using Ruin to prevent crazy gen speeds. Here is my idea to add secondary objective: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/116859/refueling-generators-objective
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I don't hate the changes, I just want ruin to stop being destroyed in the first 30 seconds. Like, you gamble a strong perk late game vs a waste of a perk slot, but 8/10 games it's a waste, that doesn't seem fair, especially when the new ruin is even weaker in an early game.
All I want is ruin to last the first part of the game when it is considered weaker, that's it, then it becomes findable in the middle of the game when it's strong but not OP, and then in the late game when it's more OP it should be even easier to find than any other totem, it should light up the entire area or something. I just want time as set up killers, that's all =(
All that or maybe even better just do something about gen speed in general, it can be insane at times.
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I really want to play with new Ruin on both killer and survivor... I want my experience to form my opinion. Not use what other people have said
Am I weird for saying that... (sarcasm included)
I am a bad killer main IMO... but I want to improve at the game so I might take a some time off to get back to the rank I should be (yellow) and go from there
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I think the best outcome is that each individual killers get buffs independent of each other to make them strong enough to not need ruin! But unfortunately due to natural limits, that would just take too much time. :(
So here's what I'd like to see:
-Toolboxes have got to be reworked. Even a brown toolbox can take 15 seconds off a gen. As a killer, this is massive. Anyone who has played killer has had a time when they're walking up to a gen and the survivor finishes it right before you get there. Imagine that scenario, except it pops 15 seconds early, and its every gen! Keep in mind these are just brown Toolboxes without perks OR add-ons. That's pretty frustrating to play against, which is why it was nice to have ruin.
I think changes to toolboxes would be nice, but I think the biggest fix is players being able to keep their items without the use of a protective ward. Regardless of the outcome of the match, you should lose any items you brought with you into the trial. Then toolboxes can keep their original strength because you won't be able to get 3-4 or even more uses out of them.
But I recognize the possibility of that change being implemented is slim. So here's what I'd do. I'd make it so that toolbox repair speed is locked in, and it can't be increased by perks. Similar to how we'll make it works. Each individual survivor has a capped repair speed that can't exceed a certain bonus. Say, 15%. Just as an example. Then its easier to balance overall gen repair speeds because there aren't so many variable numbers to work with. 😊
That's just my idea though. Either one I think would go a long way to helping fix the frustration of losing such a valuable asset like ruin. Tell some people over at BHVR I said hi if this ever get read!
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You can test it on the PTB.
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Myers does not need a stronger their 3, I use killer pretty often and I use both trapper and Myers and I mainly use Myers, I my experience at red ranks his tier 3 does not need to change.
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This isn't very thought out. Considering you can make the VERY SAME argument the other way around.
It is proven, with old ruin, that you can still get all the gens done in 5 minutes or less... Which is incredibly fast considering Q times are often double that amount of time.
Yet, here we are, still nerfing ruin because It's "Frustrating for survivors".
Don't worry, no need to "get good" survivors, we will put that completely on the Killer side of the fence. No worries, Mates!
I mean.. Think about it.
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I'm a console player
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What about something as simple as adding an additional skill check button? So when a skill check triggers it prompts you to hit one of the two buttons. Press the wrong button or miss the zone and blow the gen. That could possibly even make lullaby a little stronger.
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That's where we disagree because statistically it's very weak for how long it takes to get it..and that's with ruin as a cushion..with that in mind I cannot agree with that in the slightest..I just think faster breaking speeds being added would let him get value of his power more consistantly.
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- Slower gen speed
- Make New Ruin not a hex
That's really all.
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Nerf Decisive strike.
Then i will be okay with ruin nerf.
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1) Change the way Hex notifications work to make all totems better:
- Huntress Lullaby notification shouldn't pop up until the killer has 5 tokens.
- NOED/Devour notifications should ONLY pop up if the killer uses their basic attack.
- New Ruin notification should only pop up if you hit a great skill check.
2) Blindness makes Hex totems look like dull totems. This will make Third Seal better in particular, but also makes Blindness better overall.
3) Shrink the larger maps: both Red Forest maps, Ormond, Rotten Fields, Ward, Family Residence, Thompson House.
4) Fix all the "bad" totem spots so that totems are hidden better. I'm talking most specifically about the totems that are out in the wide open, like corn fields or that one totem on Ward.
5) Add map wide sound effect when a dull totem is cleansed. This would help solos track how many totems are left, and help killers with NOED track whether or not their totem will become active at end game.
6) Reduce the speed at which gens are repaired when multiple survivors are working on it. Two survivors on a gen should take a minimum of 60s base. Three, 50s. Four, 40s.
7) Put a hard cap on gen speed of 40s. No matter how many buffs the survivors have, they should NEVER be able to fully repair a generator in less than 40s. The exception to this would be BNP.
8) Allow killers to kick generators with new Ruin, which increases regression by an extra 50% (so it goes from 100/150/200% to 150/225/300%). This let's them use perks like PGTW and Overcharge in combination with Ruin.
Post edited by thesuicidefox on0 -
Since we are talking about a Ruin "rework" that I would be okay with here goes: Change it to be a normal perk instead of a hex, have the regression boosted up to 300% at lvl 3 and remove the fact it automatically works on generators, make it work only on things you kick or proc with things like Surge. I think this would make it a solid slow down perk, that works with other slow down perks, but isn't oppressive by itself. On a side note, can we make Huntress Lullaby not a hex as well? I can't see that perk being oppressive as it currently is, even if it wasn't a hex, it just requires you to pay attention more.
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Sadly I want to agree but I can't since high tier player actually are forced to use ruin to not get gen rushed in 5 minutes right now I can only see the bad side for high tiers however if we talk about low tier they are gonna have a blast since they are going to have it a lot easier...however sooner or later they will also get bored and start to complain that it is to hard or too easy too play the game... +Without ruin what will happen too all the low tier killers they will be like a prop that can't do anything more than watch...
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Until you don't need any type of gen perk, then there is a problem with gen speed in my eyes. How you fix that is up for debate. The biggest suggestion is reworking the majority of maps due to the size of them. We had Ruin nerfed, but the reality is it will still be 100% necessary to have a generator managing perk. So regardless of your "Ruin" statistics, that's another statistic I suggest you look into.
Otherwise, you need to tackle the things that extend chases, or cause too much time to be wasted. These are things like DS, possible Exhaustion perks, toolboxes, things like that.
I think Ruin being nerfed needs the devs to understand that generator speeds are not okay, and the sooner you accept this the sooner you can balance your game.
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Either remove the hex or, failing that, all gens explode and immediately regress 25% of their progress when the totem is cleansed. I think that would fit into the lore (ruin is already affecting all gens, so losing that hold should damage them)
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They should make it a normal perk with no hex totem. That's all that's it. That would make the change fine. As it is it's not an effect that is worth having the hex totem vulnerability.
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One thing I'm partial to is a secondary objective to gens. Either stoping 3 gens from being repaired before a switch is fliped (Ayrun threw this idea out and i like it {it would also help with preventing 3 gen setups i may be more of a killer than survivor but 3 gen setups are not fun for either side just becomes a who will persevere longer})
One idea i had was having Jerry cans in the game. 5 would spawn cause of the amount of gens that must be repaired before gates much be open. plus this could add a way to communicate to randoms in your game "Hey work on this gen" Before a gen is fueled it would take more time IDK what time would work maybe +10 seconds, so 90 instead of the 80 gens are now (yes i know they said no increasing gen speeds but with a secondary objective this would have to happen for incentive to do that secondary objective in Ex hex perks) once a gen is fueled i would take -10, so 70 seconds. Cans would spawn by lockers with in 32 meters of gens. Fueling a gens would take 1 second. (please keep in mind that this numbers are rough and something like this would need a lot of testing before it is fair for both sides)
If you see any holes in it dont be afraid to poke em, lets just keep it constitutive. Offer a counter point to that hole.
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I personally feel like Ruin is fine. Maybe increase the regression to 250% or so, but that's it. I wouldn't mind if it wasn't a hex perk or if it had two hex totems assigned to it instead of one, but only if Surveillance wouldn't work with Ruin in that case. That combo is actually really good now, and the fact that Ruin is a hex perk and that you need to use two perk slots for that combo balances that out.
Honestly though, I feel like Ruin is fine, the main problem are the many maps that are still too big and/or just have too many safe pallet and window loops.
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My main concern with changing Ruin is not having addressed Toolboxes, Maps and yes even Mori's as those all affect how quick a game can go.
- Toolboxes need to offer other benefits other than a passive increase in speed. Such as great skillchecks being worth more the better the toolbox. With toolbox only slightly increasing repair speed at most. Other passives that don't affect gen speed would be welcome as well such as while toolbox is active a gen is silent or something along those lines. Just avoid anything that increases gen repair speed.
- Maps need to be reworked with simple M1 killers in mind so half a gen cannot be complete before they reach that side. Also some maps need to be reworked to adjust how some tiles spawn to avoid a chain of safe loops next to each other most notably on the farm maps. If this is not possible I wouldn't argue against some sort of global killer feature that teleported the killer somehow. Such as they enter a rift in the corners of the map and the exit point was always the basement which ideally would always be near center map.
- Mori's to alter game speed but in the killers favor so it's hard to really mention this when the discussion is how would we make up for Ruin being nerfed. Although I think it's fair to mention this as a concern if the above two were mentioned being maps and toolboxes.
- I'd mention keys but those can only preemptively end the game not speed it up. At the point where a key can be used the game is pretty close to over anyways or has played itself out.
Also unpopular opinion (I think?) but gen speed is fine as it is. The problem is big maps and toolboxes.
My personal bias is this Ruin rework is necessary. I don't use it because it trains survivors to hit greats and only punishes mediocre players. I can personally hit greats 7/10 times usually and I see the perk as a waste because it gets cleansed too quickly. Ruin is going to be garbage now but I see this as necessary for this game to move forward. Although BHVR's timing and lack of changing other stuff is going to hurt the game in my opinion. We'll see how it plays out though.
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I would be OK with this nerf if DbD took a pass on every map that is larger than coal tower, and adjust it to be either exactly or nearly exactly the same size. Then a pass on certain killers in particular that have extreme mobility to realign their power to better fix smaller maps. With this the lower tier killers can finally put down reliable pressure on the map and the Highest tier killers finally don't have a need to have all their mobility. Then we might finally see a diverse group of killers being played at high ranks other than Billy, Nurse, Spirit.
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Make it so the ruin is no longer a hex. Buff the regression speed for that... maybe like 200/300 and 400%. Making great skill checks success zones shorter when this perk is active. :)
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In a word, time.
The change to RUIN may make it more powerful than the previous version. When considering it's synergies with other Perks and powers.
I'm quick to throw salt first and access situations later. That's the meme'r in me. The delivery of the update was in short ham handed to the point of being offensive (as a Killer main that plays both sides). To claim that a HEX Perk carries little to no risk is a slap in the face.
I will say this - RUIN's primary function used to be forcing Survivors to get better at skillchecks and grant some incentive toward exploring the map and learning totem spawn locations. Newer Survivors will still leave a gen early when hearing a heartbeat. They can be weeded out early by combining RUIN with Surveillance and Distressing. Cruel Limits and Mind Breaker are also greatly buffed if not to a point of viability.
It now gives the Killer a devastating amount of information vs inexperienced players and may become even more frustrating to vs. It certainly has that potential. Apart from or in addition to any adjustments to gameplay (T,S,C).
RUIN also has the potential to become absent. In it's place? For 80% of Red Ranks, that could very well be NOED. Pairing with little to no perceived value to totem cleansing or learning spawn locations for newer players, solos may learn to appreciate this change less and less.
I would also remind the community of Third Seal, with the new found appreciation for Kindred it is far Superior to Knock Out for slugging, which is the ultimate tactic to create slowdown. Throw in BBQ and you have far fewer bleedouts (obviously).
Final thoughts. Due to the balance of the game it would be very interesting to see what the departure of a large amount of players from Red Ranks would mean. I'm speaking not of players quitting, but Depipping or not actually being able to reach Reds. The Killer diversity could be reduced and so, even if by a fraction, a fraction of 80+%. Count the number of Survivor Mains that post about facing the same Killers repeatedly and what Red Ranks will play like when the roster is reduced and the 'lower tier' Killers are nearly - if not completely- absent.
And for the love of The Entity, Behaviour- give Bubba a full set of working addons and the Lady Face.
Food for thought.
Thanks.
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What if we change Ruin like this
- All gens are regressing at normal (* X) speed CONSTANTLY
- Above-mentioned regressing isn't counted as gen that was kicked, so you still can kick it thus making it regres at 1+X times the normal speed.
Good thing about it:
- No bad interactions with other gen regressing perks
- Slows down gen progression by 25% (*X) when soloing a gen, so stacking up on them is more advised
- Gives better reward when actively pushing survivors off the gens
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Give killers 5% more movement speed across the board (action speeds remain the same).
Match time is about to drastically decrease due to map size and chase times - This effectively reduces both, while also making new Nurse more bearable to play at high ranks.
This is a pretty stupid idea, probably, but the brownies made me say it.
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It should be something to slow all gens at the start so maybe so like corrupt intervention where old ruin apllies in early game but goes away over time or a hook
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Ideally, map reworks into good maps but that is unrealistic.
Like you brought up, toolboxes should be addressed now. I also think DS specifically should be looked at, now that ruin has been hit it's a bit unrealistic to expect killers to on top of all of the pressure that they're expected to do also have to deal with a momentum killer perk like that.
And I think hexes as a whole should be looked at. The only real useful Hex perks have been Ruin and NOED. Ruin because despite the risk (yes there was a risk) it started out strong from the getgo and NOED because it doesn't appear until endgame. Just look at Devour Hope, this is unquestionable the strongest effects on a perk in the game, yet it barely sees play because expecting it to last to the point where those effects come into play is almost never.
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I've thought about this all afternoon and I'm not sure I have any new ideas to bring, but it seems important points are:
45% - 80% of Killers are using Hex: Ruin at any given time. That's HUGE. Even if you don't use Ruin personally, it doesn't change that many/most people do use it. Not acknowledging this dismisses the bulk of the Killer player base. Clearly it has an important effect on the match, maybe even a critical effect for the majority of these players.
When I spawn next to a lit totem, I leave it, because spawning in beside a lit totem often enough for this to be a consideration tells me I shouldn't mess with it. However, most players don't do that. So maybe remove the 'Hex' portion of the perk, as many have suggested? If even a single survivor brings in Detective's Hunch, there's no way that hex totem will stand until the end.
Alternatively, in addition to its other effects, add more time to gens as part of the new Hex: Ruin, perhaps scaling back the added time as more gens are completed? That way, it's justifiably strong as a Hex and addresses the issue that makes a commanding number of Killers use it? I saw that suggestion in here a few times too, and as a Survivor main, I think that's a great idea. My wife & I work on gens together with Prove Thyself (no toolboxes), so she can earn more bloodpoints, and it goes WAY too fast without a slow down.
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Most of the population would be totally fine with Ruin being reworked if maps were being addressed simultaneously. However, they have not been. Still more than 90% of the maps need reworks. This is just simply the wrong time.
The new Ruin is also just quite weak. It isn't good enough to be a Hex perk. Late game Hex perk also just doesn't make sense at all.
We need the early game gens slowed down, new Ruin doesn't do that. When I say early gens slowed down I also mean at base, we don't need another bandaid fix with a perk covering up the issue like Ruin was.
Post edited by Blueberry on0 -
Here we go again. Just in case someone at BVHR is reading the thread, maybe this will get through - MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN. MAP DESIGN.
Until that is completely dealt with in a way that is satisfactory to both sides, a change like this will only cause the killer population to shrink. It doesn't matter how good at killer a select portion of the population with thousands of hours is, we're looking at the average game length with killers/survivors that are just okay.
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Hex's will never be good without three things being guaranteed.
- Powerful and immediate effects.
- Better hiding spots.
- A check that doesn't enable hexes to spawn next to generators or in the open.
It's just the nature of the beast when you have 5 totems and 4 people scouring the map for generators.
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I agree, a lot of people are saying "We need it for early game for slower killers" Smaller maps = more pressure all around and setup can be done while also pressuring near key gens & loops.
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I honestly think permanent regression on gens that aren't being worked on is just too strong.
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I just think it should be removed as a hex perk. It's fine but, a bit weak to be a hex totem. So, I'd rather just see it become a regular perk
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Typical community manager main, always being optimistic 🙄😅
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Agreed, I have no issue with the regression being more, but there's where I sort of draw the line, a lot of people want it a normal perk but I think it's just too strong that way, thoughts?
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Getting gas would be cool.
It's m1 but you have to scavenge to find it. It gives a purpose to playing stealth too.
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exactly, they thought of a perfectly unusable perk, basically.
Wont do nothing good to increase killers time in the beginning and will be cleansed when it can start to be useful.
I hope to be wrong, but I can't believe they are unaware about it, i just think that they believe it will be more profitable to make the game friendly for new users.
What I see,on the other hand, is a 25 mins long queue as survivor, and 5 seconds queue as a killer...if this is not an alarm signal....
We can discuss for decades but I doubt they change their mind. We are forgetting a simple point...it is an HEX...can be cleansed, nothing that can be cleansed easily needed a rework.
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I think ruin should remove great skill check zones. It won't really affect new players, which the devs claim is one of their goals, and can still potentially waste toolbox add-ons, making more skilled players want to get rid of ruin, wasting early game time.
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Ruin as a perk not an hex. But, you still have to kick a generator if you want the regression to start. That's my idea but honestly I like ruin atm. Every gen was affected by ruin. Now, only the one you control. Which makes ruin power depend on your skills. :) It's a significant nerf but players still prefer run ruin over other perks so it's obviously more than good enough considering it's not supposed to be that much better...
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Why not run pop then?
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I think the gen speed itself is alright, but the overall game length can be to short. I suggest a second objective which has to be done before being able to work on gens (since early game is the hardest time for the killer). Idk, finding fuel before being able to work on a gen or something like that.
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I don't really play killer but maybe have the hex totem spawn in a couple minutes after the game starts so it's not instantly cleansed? They could even make that a new perk for hex totems if they want. That way it can remain a hex totem while not getting cleansed right away.
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When I said ruin only affects the gen you're controlling I meant you can't be in front of 2 gens at the same time
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Something to be added so gens aren't the only thing survivors have to do. This would make the ruin changes less... ruinous for killers, and would give survivors more to do.
Honestly, if gens weren't going as quickly as they do, then I wouldn't have an issue with Ruin being changed...
I would also want to buff Huntress' Lullaby to not be a Hex, and same with TOTH, since they have no reason to be.
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