Yet another thread about Secondary Objectives/Maps [Thoughts/Suggestions]

Zakkusy

Heya! I'm a regular lurker on the forums, but I haven't posted here before.

I've been thinking about secondary objectives and the general gameplay loop for the past few months, just based on my personal experiences as both Survivor and Killer. The problem I've noticed right now is the very low interactivity with both sides when it comes to the whole Survivor vs Killer aspect. The slight exception to this are high mobility killers (most killers don't belong in that category).

The usual game goes something like this (and again, this is my own personal experience): The Killer spawns usually on the opposite side of the map, with some variations happening as of late (like middle map spawns, which got really rare at one point). Survivors spawn by default pretty randomly, but the general RNG puts them at the very least outside of the Killer's Terror Radius, if not opposite side of the map. I see Survivors spawn in pairs the most personally. Most of the time they seem to spawn next to a common tile like a jungle gym, with a generator and other objectives nearby (totems, chests).

Let's assume we're not talking about the most efficient Survivors. One will probably go after a totem they see, second wants an item from a chest, the third one wanders around a bit to figure out where they want to start, the fourth one jumps on a generator they spawned next to.

The Killers I've seen, and how I also play, usually head for the 2 furthest generators on their initial spawn. To me, this yields results in about 1-2 minutes at most. As a Survivor, I've noticed this to be pretty consistent as well, the Killer finds me or a teammate even without early tracking perks like Whispers pretty quick. That's all fine.

Now here comes the common problem that's been talked and talked over. How maps are structured and how both sides have to juggle their time usage. I keep repeating it, but again this is from personal experience. By that first two minutes, with the exception of the one Survivor (or two, if you caught them by suprise and hit both), every other survivor is already done with whatever task they started with the moment the match started, most of the time jumping on a generator, or healing whoever just got hit but not chased. 2-3 Survivors are stuck holding M1 to either heal someone or working on a generator. Point is, they don't get to interact with the Killer. Meanwhile, Killers are stressed to get their first down before a Generator pops. It's really frustrating for the Killer, and really boring for the Survivors.

And here's where I think lies the problem. Let me open it up a bit more.

Killers

Alot of the maps are huge for most Killers to traverse in. Some of the maps have been reduced in size over the years (Swamp and Springwood come to mind first). Even assuming the Killer finds a Survivor AND guarantees a hit on the first 2 minutes, chances are a Generator is about to pop in the next minute during the chase, just because of travel time. Adding to that, some maps have some pretty ridiculous Tile spawns, with little room for the Killer to make the chase shorter. This includes maps with low wall, semi-safe pallet setups that reduce any mindgame opportunity to near zero. Another annoyance are LOS blockers that give away too much of the Killer's position. Tiles like this include see through medium walls in Asulym with strong pallet setups. Personally, Blood Lodge is probably the worst example of low wall pallet setups. Killers already juggle so many things at once, using their Power well mechanicly, keeping track of meta game mechanics like Obsessions, Perks Survivors might have, Perks that give the Killer more information, Tiles that have spawned to figure out if chasing a Survivor is worth it, location of Generators so that you don't have to patrol two generators that are really far apart, slugs (if that's your playstyle), Pallets that are gone, any loud noise notifications etc. The list goes on. Killer gameplay is stressful and sometimes frustrating, and not for the right reasons in my opinion.

Killers also have very limited ways to add interactivity on their side for Survivors. Characters like the Plague or Freddy do add SOME depth to regular Survivor gameplay, but these are an expection and not a rule. But discussing individual Killer powers right now is out of the scope of this thread.

Survivors

There's only one Killer per match. As a result, chances that more than one Survivor gets to interact with the Killer in any way at a time (be it the tension/risk of hiding from a Killer looking for you or you darting to a loop for an exciting chase) is very low. But I do have to ask, isn't the point of playing Survivor the risk and thrill of getting caught and being sacrificed? So regardless of if you're a fan of Stealth or Bold gameplay styles, alot of the current map & gameplay loop design reduce the chance of a Survivor feeling pressured by the Killer in any way. I've had games as a Survivor, where even when I'm attempting to be as Bold as possible to increase my chances of getting chased by the Killer, I'm usually left holding M1 on a teammate or Generator, while watching a chase from afar with Empathy. Unhooking is a game mechanic that promotes going to an area that a Killer is either nearby or has just left and whom knows it is an objective Survivors are eventually going to go to. But again, this (usually) only occupies one Survivor, until the Killer finds another person to chase. Meanwhile the other 2 are once again holding M1 in some form and the poor Survivor on the hook at most gets to repeatedly press a button until a rescue arrives.

On top of all of this, alot of interactivity chances that Survivors have with Killers is completely optional. Things like attempting flashlight/pallet saves, while fun, the game doesn't really motivate you well to do them. Usually it means a second person has to follow the Survivor being chased around for a chance at an emergancy rescue (due to map size and travel time), which suprisingly often is fruitless as the Killer blocks the pallet from being used while picking up or a decent Killer just turns their face to a wall to prevent flashlights altogether. Then there's chests and totems. While Hexes are a component that motivate Survivors to move around for a secondary objective, it's completely dependant on the Killer you're playing against to bring said Perks, and on top of that, alot of the Hexes can just be ignored anyway most of the match. Chests are also highly optional, because of the Bloodweb giving plenty of items to bring into matches, that especially with addons last a bit too long for the average match length (Toolboxes being one) for it to be worth it to find a new item. You often also just want to keep the item you have in your hand in case you escape, since you don't lose it after the match, so going after Chests is a time sink.

Interacting with individual Killer Powers, as mentioned in the Killer section, is also RNG depending on whom you face and talking about each Power isn't in the scope of this thread.

My suggestions

If you read this far, good job! The core problem or word that I kept repeating in the text above was Maps. Yes, most of them need an overhaul and it's known by the devs. Creating more Killer friendly loops, where you can win a chase with skillful mindgames and not just by breaking Pallet after Pallet, but the Survivor still has a fair, decent chance to play said loops well is the way to go. My favorite map is Springwood by miles after the rework. The Main Building could use some toning down, and the rest of the buildings could be looked at a bit with their Pallet and especially Window spawns, but everything inbetween? So good! Hawkins is a bit too oppressive, I shiver whenever I get it as a Survivor, and feel bad for the players everytime I arrive there as a Killer. But Springwood is the way to go for future Map design and reworks. The main play area of that map isn't ridiculously big either. The buildings offer some stealth/LOS approaches, and fences around the Map serve as means for both sides to make some decisions. Only thing is the lack of traditional Maze Tiles, but other Maps make up for that. Here's looking at you Suffocation Pit.

My second suggestion is not an easy task either. Creating a brand new Secondary Objective from scratch. I've seen multiple variations of this here, involving Spare Parts, Gas or something for Survivors to scavenge and I've taken a liking to the idea, but here's my take on it. I apologize if this has been suggested before, but here I go.

Gas canisters that Survivors have to carry. A Gas Canister is an infinitely spawning item, that a Survivor uses to start up a Generator. Until a Generator has been sprung to life by it, it can't be worked on actively. The Gas Canister is consumed on use.

However, a map contains two relatively consistently spawning points for Gas Canisters, preferably far apart from each other. Only two Gas Canisters can exist at a given time, and only one per spawn can be taken away. If needed, a Spawn Timer can be included with how often you can take Gas away from the two spawn points. Survivors either see the Aura of Gas Spawn Points (Aura color can be used to provide information whether Gas is available or not, for example). Using a Gas Canister on a Generator isn't instant, to prevent Survivors from "tapping" Generators to life with a Gas Canister while in a chase. It's to promote having a Survivor not in a chase get the Gas, stay out of the Killer's sight, power up a Generator and start working on it. It also promotes working on the same Generator to not waste time by each Survivor individually picking up Gas to power up their own Generator they're working solo. Also, if a Gas Canister is dropped by a Survivor, there's a short period when it can be picked up by another Survivor, until it despawns, resetting the Spawn Timer on a Gas Spawn Point if a Timer system is used.

[Additional Notes: You could also have more than two Gas Spawn Points, but only allow 2 Gas Canisters to exist in the map at one time. Also, Survivors seeing a dropped Gas Canisters Aura isn't a bad idea either (to prevent sandbagging). To prevent further sandbagging, you could also tie in a system, where sacrifices/hooks power up Generators on their own, to prevent impossible games with only a few Survivors remaining. The possibilites are pretty endless with this.]

What this means in terms of the gameplay loop, then? Let's look at Killer first.

A Killer's job right now is to patrol the generators. With this change, a Killer is presented the early game option of patrolling Gas Spawn points, which are more guaranteed to have Survivors in them, without all 3 other Survivors being able to instantly work on their Main objective with no pressure from the Killer. It also adds more choices for the Killer to pursue during the match. Do I pressure a Generator that's already powered up or make sure no more Generators get powered up? However, the Gas Spawn Points would have to be located so far apart that no stalemates or unnessecary stalls are possible. This is a certain problem in smaller maps such as Hawkins, but numbers can be adjusted for smaller maps. An example would be adding additional Gas Spawn Points depending on Map size, or removing the Gas Canister limit from a specific Map. This might create inconsistency across gameplay loops depending on the map, however. But this ties back to the general Map design (why Hawkins in general is so oppressive even without this added system), and is the reason why no one solution is enough, especially when introducing a solution from scratch. This system would also mean that Generator Regression perks would have to be looked at with a heavy hand, but that's a discussion for another thread.

What about Survivors with this system?

Survivors would have to decide who carries the Gas to a Generator, and whom accompanies them in hopes of working together on the Generator. It also provides them more chances to encounter the Killer, regardless of if they're Stealthing or hoping for a good chase. Because of the limited Gas Canisters at any given time, it would also incentivize to do other optional objectives such as Totems or Chests while two other Survivors are working on delivering Gas. Gas Canisters would be a separate item from your regular held item such a Flashlight, so you can carry both together. You can't use your regular held item while you are carrying Gas, however. If you wanted more interactivity with the Gas Canisters, Survivors could have the option to throw it a small distance (kinda like passing a ball to another survivor), instead of dropping it like a regular item for added strategy, in case the Killer spots you carrying it.

With all that said though, I'd seriously consider boosting the Generator repair speeds if this system is implemented, atleast if all other aspects of Generator repair disruption remain in the game after the change (certain Killer Powers, Regression Perks, kicking etc.). An example of how Killer Perks would interact with this new system would be changing Corrupt Intervention to blocking one of three (or more) Gas Spawn Points for 2 minutes.

TL;DR

Revamp maps to be more like Springwood minus the buildings. Hawkins is too oppressive with it's map design.

Add Gas Canisters to power up Generators. Generators can't be worked on until powered up. Two or more spawnpoints for them in a map. Only two Canisters can exist at a time. Both Killer and Survivors can see the Aura's of the spawns and the Canisters. If a Canister is dropped, it's Aura is shown and can be picked up by a Survivor for a short time before despawning back to the Spawn. Add a timer before Gas can be extracted from a Spawn Point if needed. Reduce Gen repair time if needed because of the new system, and to reduce holding M1. Designed to add more interaction chances between Killer and Survivors, to reduce Killer frustration and combat Survivor M1 simulator boredom by making them move around the Map.

Maybe make the Survivors capable of throwing the Canisters for added strategy and hilarity. *shrug*

TheEntity03

I think this would be fun as both killer and survivor. First it brings something new to the game. Second I can face off with the killer more then have to just stay on the gen the whole time. Third it would be easier to see survivors than them hiding ALL the time. 😊