Tunneling vs gen rushing
This needs to be explained so killer mains can understand.
Why actual tunneling and gen rushing are different.
Gen rushing=survivors enter map and all immediately leap on generators (or if they came in together they jump on one.)
The killer player is still playing freely the entire time. If the survivors are together then he can still use perks or guard specific gens for a 3 gen strat. Gen time together was also nerfed.
If survivors are all on 4 separate gens he can go to any of multiple gens, and attack someone. Still playing freely. He can attack, lob bottles, guard gens, etc.
Tunneling: when a killer main specifically dedicates himself to killing a specific survivor fast as possible. Hooking that person fast as possible, guarding and/or downing them again as fast as possible. The survivor is not getting to play freely, he is spending his time on the hook and likely getting down seconds after being unhooked, then being hooked again for the most limited, restricted, and miserable experience possible. Survivors don't exactly have flamethrowers or pocketknives.
For a simple comparison:imagine playing Star Wars Battlefront. If your team is losing badly you can still give it your best shot. Flank the enemy, surprise attacks, etc. You can still play freely and make a valiant last stand, jump in a tank, put a turret down and duck and shoot from cover, etc.
Now imagine playing Star Wars Battlefront and instead of your team losing badly, an invinceable player dedicates themselves to killing you as soon as you spawn and your gameplay consists of running away then dying quickly. The other people on your "team" might win, but you're not playing freely, the game might as well a downgraded phone edition without half the game. Who on earth in their right mind would spend their free time on that?
Comments
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I might have an unpopular opinion but there's no such thing as "gen rushing" it's called "bad gen pressure byt he killer" or "the killer decided not to hurt everyone he could if they were all on the same gen forcing them to loose time healing".
And about the tunneling, it's just dumb, unless he dared to teabag you... Tunneling is counterable btw
I'm both killer and survivor red ranks, xbox
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To answer the last question, assuming you're still playing the game, you would. You would spend your free time on that.
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Good comparison to Battlefront. DS and BT exist but both do very little against a persistent killer. Although both annoying, neither are a very big problem (save 4 toolbox deathsquad)
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Ehhhh DS is 1 time use and requires someone to save you. From solo experience that's a fairly sizeable requirement. Thank you for a good comment.
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I'm more or less of the same opinion, barring 4 toolboxes (often with BNPs). Same goes for tunneling as well. There's a difference between the killer choosing to go for the same guy and getting unhooked and doing a gen, then expecting them not to go for you. They both get thrown around a lot and it really starts to make them lose all meaning.
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Bruh, that's called getting carried by perks, something you and the other big brained devs refuse to actually acknowlege. Good luck getting that pressure on with 90% of the killer roster btw. (Inb4 just slug)
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Literally 72% of killers suffer from bad map and kit design to the point they aren't even worth taking past rank 12.
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Xbox? You don't happen to play p3 bill with christmas sweater do you?
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60% of the survivor objective being finished in 1 chase is fine /s
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Not really sure why you keep specifying “killer mains” as if that’s some sort of requirement to tunnel.
I also love how you compare two completely opposite and incomparable tactics.
A killer tunnels because of or to: A) remove a “toxic” survivor, B) secure a kill, C) they’re not a great chaser, D) That’s their strategy
You’re mad because a SOLO player, that being the killer decided to eliminate ONE of FOUR survivors in a strategic fashion.
During a tunnel, 3 other survivors have the opportunity to literally finish about 3.5-4 generators.
What’re you complaining about? Being tunneled results in that survivor contributing to the team by taking away the killer attention and time (which is essential to killers). You’re comparison to a FPS isn’t usable in this case because you are still assisting your team indirectly.
Gg.
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Yes I do, 1 game I'm a p3 bill with christmas and then I change to Dwelf head with P2 body
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Yeah, we should all be like peanits here and just slug with deerstalker and act like we have any amount of skill lmao
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Gen rushing is not simply doing generators, it's doing generators at the expense of the rest.
For example, if you repair generators while injured (but other survivors are nearby and you could heal yourself), not cleansing totems (except for, maybe, Ruin), repairing generators even if someone is going to reach second stage on hook.. that's gen rushing.
It's a very valid strategy for surviving, but it's really non-sensical from a bloodpoint / pipping / gameplay variety point of view though.
...and it's very frustrating for the killer :P.
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So, here's my take.
Gen rushing isn't a real thing. What I mean by that is, gens do go fast yes; But being that it's literally the survivors only objective, and therefore slapping a label on it like they have some alternative motive behind it other than the fact that it's all they're given to do is a bit silly.
Contrary to what the person a few posts up said, it is not bad gen pressure on the killers part. Some killers are incapable of getting across a map even the size of Ormund before 1 or 2 gens are popped, and that's if they go in a straight line. So it's unfair to say it's bad gen pressure on killers, it's more the lack of ability for non mobile killers to apply said pressure. It will only get worse now because ruin was nerfed before the issue was solved (which is maps, not gen times) @Peanits .
As for tunneling, not everyone does it, and there certainly are reasons to do it. Like, if you bring a key, I think it's fair to expect to be tunneled. Or if you're an 4 stack SWF with toolboxes, it's safe to say the best play the killer could make is eliminating one of you ASAP.
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Tunneling isn’t a real thing either. It’s the killers objective to do just that, kill.
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Yes, is totally my fault or bad gen pressure by the killer when 2 gens got instantily done because I'm still travelling the half of Red Forest/Rotten Fields. These maps are so good... I wonder why survivors are always using this offerends
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You can't say get good when survivors can use infinites to instantly get the killer off them, most killers have no map pressure capabilities, and pressuring on maps that make other maps look like a child's sandbox is pretty ######### hard for anyone but Nurse, Spirit, Hillbilly, and maybe Oni if you're lucky
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Ahm...
You're telling me that it takes you to traverse half of red forest/rotten fields in more than 28.57 seconds...? And that's 4 persons on a gen... How about 2 on one and 2 on another cause you said "2 gens got instantly done", You're telling me that it takes you to traverse half of red forest/rotten fields in more than 44.44 seconds...? And that most teams you get to play against behave like this...?
Let me guess, you don't use reading perks like discordance, slowdown perks like CI or a fast phase killer like Spirit, Billy, Freddy, Demogorgon, Oni, Nurse? I'd say Huntress neither cause if you do use discordance on her you can land throws from pretty far away...
No, better yet, you encounter 4 men SWF teams all with toolboxes and BNPs all the time or most matchs? Cause then both gens got fixed in 20 seconds each!
Man, if that's an usual game for you you need to change your build... And you're just having bad luck...
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Tunneling is absolutely a thing - since part of the killers objective is to patrol generators in ADDITION to kill the survivors. That's part of where the games balance is broken. It's 4v1, yet the 1 has so much more to do than the 4.
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Both are just a strategy to win. Neither is better or worse than the other. It's like in football (soccer) you can win by playing offensive football or play "boring" defensive football, people will have opinions about it but you play to win, not to please your opponent.
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"Bad gen pressure by killer" is not the reason for gen rushing. You chase people off one gen, they are just on the other. They will bounce between two until it is repaired. No killer can be at both generators at the same time, but four survivors can. Gen pressure is mostly irrelevant when it comes to gen rushing. The problem is a combination of chases lasting too long and generators repairing too quickly. Needs to be fewer pallets and longer repair times.
Post edited by Madhatter920 on6 -
Some killers have absolutely no way to pressure gens. How is a killer like Michael supposed to do that on rotten fields? The map is too big to traverse and is full of safe structures that are going to add a ton of time to any chase you engage in. Even when you know or suspect that survivors are on a gen, there reaches a certain point where it’s going to get done no matter what since regression is so slow.
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And when you're patrolling you aren't going directly to the gens being worked on, you go to every gen and check. So yes, if you're going in an arch shape to the gens across the map where 4 people are working in close proximity to each other, it is 100% possible. And we shouldn't have to run specific perk to deter the absurd gen speed.
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I'm sorry but everything that you say is really beautiful in the paper. In reality, we know how the things works. Killers can make mistakes? Sure. But don't blame the killers with the same bs excuse "jUst pReSs GeNs 4head" when 99% of the maps are a huge kick in balls of any killer. And no, I don't want to use the same build, the same killer and... Are you realy using Demogorgon as a good example to avoid gen rush? Jesus...
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1st than anything, you might be basing your argument on the fact that you'll always or most of the times face a 4 men SWF (statistics have been released about that and it's not a fact that it is that common) with toolboxes and maybe with BNPs... It's not usual, you can encounter them, but it's not usual...
About the Myers part (NO RUIN):
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And we should be able to play the killers we like, not the ones that are competitively viable without losing 80% of games. You can't complain about getting tunneled by a Clown without ruin that doesn't have slowdown perks because he didn't want to level up random killers for perks.
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So... Let's stick to "every time we play killer we're gonna face a 4 men SWF with toolboxes"? It's not usual man, and about the builds, you need to pick a build to KILL the survivors, not random perks for you to have fun... Strategy
I'm both red ranks in killer and survivor, I play as Trapper and GF main, are you telling me I'm having "good luck"...?
EDIT: I forgot the Demi, yes, go against a red ranks P3 Demi and tell me how it goes for you
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Wow... You're using a streamer with 1000000000000 hours as reference. What I supposed to say? You got me. There's a lot of videos that Otzdarva got genrushed with only 2/3 hooks but of course he won't upload
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My point is not if he's a good player or not and that's why he did it, my point is that it can be done, I gave you 3 vids of different people, need more?
And if your argument is that he has "1000000000000 hours as reference", then getting good is the point ain't it...?
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Point went over your head.
You cannot say “gen-rushing” is not a “real” thing if tunneling is considered a “real” thing. Since everyone wants to compare the two, it’s illogical to say one isn’t real but the other is and yet still compare them.
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Uh I'm so scared of Demogorgon..... I can hear his footsteps when he's coming miles away, his lunge is the easiest thing to avoid and portals are a joke. Did you really play killer?
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Man, I gave you numbers, video references, examples, if that ain't enough I guess your perception must be the statistical normality here, I'm done arguing, we can agree to disagree. :) As I said in my first comment, I think I have an unpopular opinion
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Dude, everything in this game is relative but It's a fact that map design is the main issue who brings other issue: killers limiting their builds to ruin/corrupt intervention. Even Otzdarva admit. Why you still ignore this topic?
Post edited by PoisonN on8 -
Cause maps have not affected my ingame experience, the only way I have map issues is with clown and Plague, and I believe it's cause I have them below level 10, no prestige, again, it's just my UNPOPULAR opinion, my experience, my perception, but I don't think I'm the only one who thinks this.
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I got your facetious point just fine.
Gen rushing is not a thing because it's survivors only objective. They have nothing else to do. Tunneling IS a thing because kills have to patrol gens in addition to killing survivors. They have more inherent objectives, therefore, choosing to ignore one to go after one specific person is tunneling. It's a balance issue, since the power role should have, in theory, less to do.
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I could give numbers too, because Demogorgon is one of the least used killers for a reason but anyway... Yes, we can agree to disagree, that's fine. It because it really hurts me when I see the argument "bad map pressure" when sometimes you can done so much for nothing. Then the game ends.
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Just out of curiosity, what build do you use and who are your mains?
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I am not sure if you trolling, or not. Arguing that maps don't affect your gameplay is absurd. Its universally accepted by anyone who plays killer that maps make a huge diffference. A relatively unsafe and small map like Coal Tower will give you much more better results, than a map like Blood Lodge, which is gigantic and littered with loops that offer zero counterplay whatsoever for the killer. On the latter you are litterally at the mercy of the survivors making insane mistakes to even stand a chance unless you are Spirit or Nurse.
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Huntress: Barbecue, Whispers, Trilling Thremors and Corrupt Intervention
Hag: Save The Best For The Last, Unrelenting, In All Ears and Corrupt Intervention
Pig: Monitor & Abuse, Whispers, Brutal and Enduring
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Patrolling generators is not an objective. That’s literally an option.
Pretty sure there’s a loading screen “Hint” that says: “Killers CAN patrol generators” or something along those lines.
if you want to compare tunneling as being a thing because of the choice to patrol; survivors also have various other objectives themselves: Totems, Chests, Healing, and Rescuing.
Tunneling is a thing and so is “gen rushing”. it’s been proven that strategic players use gen-rushing tactics as a means to finish a game quickly.
The primary objective and only objective that actually matters as a killer is killing. If you kill quickly, you eliminate the penalty for generators completed. “Patrolling” is optional and not necessary to a killer. So that’s not an objective of the killer.
You cannot compare two things and say one is real and the other isn’t.
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I'm really being serious here, I've been owned in maps like Ormond and not a single gen was done on Rottenfields
I just think that it was caused by me messing up, not cause of the map.
Don't get me wrong, two specific maps give me trouble, but I'm not saying I hate them, they give me more of a challenge, if I 3k+ that's a win for me as killer.
I might be having a different perception of things introjecting the real map issues as an "I made a mistake" not seeing it is actually the map.
My initial point was against the concept of gen rushing, not against map re-making
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Don’t make assumptions, gen rush can happen with competent solo survivors too. I’m not going to even bother watching the video because if I play enough games, I too could 4k without ruin using any killer. That doesn’t prove that gen speeds and/or maps are fine.
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You're telling me that it doesn't have to do with you getting good at killer but with gen speed but at the same time you're saying "if I play enough games with, I too could 4k without ruin using any killer", maybe I misunderstood.
Maps can get a look on, but gen speed is not the problem in my opinion and experience
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killers have only to kill survivors, exactly as survivors have only to escape.
If you say that killers also need to patrol generators, then I'll say that survivors also need to heal and save team mates from hook before second stage, it's exactly the same concept.
So yeah, tunneling exists, exactly as gen rushing. Probably you just have a too wide definition of gen rushing, I'll just quote mine from my previous reply:
Gen rushing is not simply doing generators, it's doing generators at the expense of the rest.
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It has much more to do with whether or not you get potato survivors in your lobby. In that case, sure, any killer is viable. But there is nothing most killers can do to maintain a map presence.
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How are you supposed to apply gen pressure if the maps don't allow it?
Also even mediocre survivors can keep the killer at distance for 20+ seconds easily before the killer can land an M1 hit.
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On a side note regarding rushing, I remember a survivor game where me and another player were already at the opened exit gate, he was injured and I tried to heal him, but he ran and escaped.
I asked him about this, and his reply was (exact quote): waste of time.
That's the gen rushing mentality some survivors have :).
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Obviously you can win on such survivor-sided maps too, but thats not down to your own skill, but to luck and the skill survivors. A map like Rotten Fields will punish you much more for patrolling the wrong generators than a map like Coal Tower will do. A map like Blood Lodge will punish a mistake at a loop more than a map like Hawkins will do. A map like Yamaokas will punish you for not finding a survivor much more than Shelter Woods will do.
Maps have strenghts and weaknesses. Some of them are so strong that its outright unfair.
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