Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on this and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
Amanda Young Changes | Final Decision
Vocabulary
RBT(s): Reverse Bear Trap(s)
Prologue
Hello, I made many threads about how Amanda Young is a great killer, but needs some changes in some aspects to make her do her role better.
My goal isn't to make her OP, but simply, to make Amanda more fun for both sides without sacrificing strength. š
Passive Timer
I modified this idea, to keep the RBT lethal while giving all survivors a fair chance.
Passive timer: 60 Seconds
When a survivor's RBT is activated by a generator, if the trapped survivor is hooked or downed, additional time is added to their RBT. Additional time is also added if the survivor is saved and a generator activates their RBT within the next 15 seconds.
This doesn't affect chases.
The passive timer prevents survivors who didn't get the opportunity to search Jigsaw Boxes while they could from dying prematurely. Chases aren't affected because the RBT is paused and unlike being downed or hooked, you have more control in that situation plus survivors can't abuse the passive timer mechanic.
Active Timer: 120 Seconds
If a generator is completed, as long as a survivor isn't in a chase, downed, or hooked, the RBT will begin to use up the passive timer first, then start on the active timer.
Once the active timer is used up, the survivor is killed on the spot.
EGC & RBT Interactions
RBTs will ignore the generator requirement once the Exit Gates are powered and will instead automatically active.
Any RBT in play during the EGC will pause the EGC timer, which will be indicated by a white meter instead of a grey meter.
Since the RBT is activated, its timer will begin to deplete and will force the survivor to remove the RBT. Therefore, the survivor cannot stall the EGC, they must remove the RBT before its timer expires or they will get killed by the RBT. This means the survivor will have to only worry about the RBT tiner, and if the killer chases after them, their RBT timer will pause to allow them a chance to break the chase. If the EGC wasn't paused, but instead slowed down, the survivor would be forced into an unwinnable situation because the EGC will eventually sacrifice them.
Crouching & Ambushing
Crouching movement speed is increased to 100%, and Ambushing an occupied survivor will automatically grab them.
The main reason why I buffed the crouch movement speed is be able to setup faster without the need of having Whispers nor Monitor & Abuse. This will give her more variety because you can use the combo to be more efficient while not making it almost a necessity to be efficient, thus freeing up perk slots.
Ironically, ambushing is not good for surprising survivors because survivors are given an audible warning, while uncrouching makes less noise and gives you the chance to grab someone if they don't pay attention. Ambushing should always be the best option when you successfully sneak up on a survivor because currently, there's no purpose to ambushing a survivor when uncrouching does everything better.
Epilogue
That's my final decision, I won't make anymore threads about Amanda Young because I believe I covered all that I wanted to say and this is my final iteration of feedback for Oinkers. š
Comments
-
I don't understand the distinction being made between the active and passive timers. From your description for the passive timer, it sounded like it took the form of a 60-second grace period if the survivor was hooked or downed when their trap activated, but then you said "If a generator is completed, as long as a survivor isn't in a chase, downed, or hooked, the RBT will begin to use up the passive timer first, then start on the active timer", which makes it sound like the passive timer applies in any case. So what exactly is the passive timer's activation condition?
0 -
Fibi, you just said it:
"If a generator is completed... the RBT will begin to use up the passive timer first, then start on the active timer" šš¤
If the passive timer doesn't activate, the RBT will just start on the active timer after a generator is completed.
0 -
Could you kindly explain the difference(s) between your current revision of the Reverse Bear Trap mechanics vs. your previous iterations? It'd be easier for me to get a feel for this one if there's a side-by-side so I can see how it's changed.
Crouch movement speed changes I am on board with, and I'm down for the ambush auto-grabbing anyone who is occupied.
0 -
Current RBT
If a generator is completed, the RBT's active timer of 2:30 begins to tick down to 0.
Once the active timer reaches 0 seconds, the survivor dies.
Reworked RBT
If a generator is completed when the survivor was dying or hooked within the last 15 seconds, the RBT's active timer of 3:00 begins to tick down to 0.
If a generator is completed when the survivor was NOT dying or hooked within the last 15 seconds, the RBT's active timer of 2:00 begins to tick down to 0.
Once the active timer reaches 0 seconds, the survivor dies.
Once all generators are completed, any RBT used will be immediately active.
The EGC will pause if any survivor has a RBT.
0 -
I meant comparing your latest revision of the RBT vs. your past revision, not your latest revision and the live version. My apologies for not being clear.
1 -
Previous Version
If the survivor isn't dying, hooked, or being chased, the RBT's active timer of 3:00 begins to tick down to 2:00. If the survivor perform any basic action such as repairing, healing, cleansing, and etc. the RBT timer will immediately drop to 2:00.
If a generator is completed, the RBT's active timer of 2:00 begins to tick down to 0. If a generator has been completed while the active timer is above 2:00, the active timer will continue to tick down once it reaches 2:00.
Once the active timer reaches 0 seconds, the survivor dies.
Once all generators are completed, any RBT used will be immediately active.
The EGC will pause if any survivor has a RBT.
Reworked RBT
If a generator is completed when the survivor was dying or hooked within the last 15 seconds, the RBT's active timer of 3:00 begins to tick down to 0.
If a generator is completed when the survivor wasĀ NOTĀ dying or hooked within the last 15 seconds, the RBT's active timer of 2:00 begins to tick down to 0.
Once the active timer reaches 0 seconds, the survivor dies.
Once all generators are completed, any RBT used will be immediately active.
The EGC will pause if any survivor has a RBT.
0 -
But why wouldn't the passive timer activate if its only activation condition is the completion of a generator?
0 -
Hm...this...is an interesting angle to approach. What this does, if I understand it correctly, is take some pressure away from Survivors who are either still on the hook or were just unhooked when the timer starts (by not fast-forwarding the clock to 2 minutes and counting when the gen pops) and instead puts that pressure onto the Survivors who have had a fair chance to look for boxes when the timer starts (by making it so their timer starts at 2 minutes when the gen pops). So the Survivors who didn't get a fair chance to start looking for the Key get a little extra grace period, but the Survivors who had a fair chance but didn't take it now have a fire lit under them. Does this all sound about right?
Post edited by TAG on1 -
You nailed it TAG, I think I finally hit my mark with the passive timer update for RBTs.
However, keep in kind this doesn't work with chases, I decided against it because it will just be abused and worst case scenario, the killer is just wasting the value of her RBTs by chasing a trapped survivor. š
0 -
There are two timers: Passive and Active.
Once the RBT is activated by a generator, the first timer, the passive timer, will begin to tick down to 0 seconds from 1:00.
The active timer, will immediately start after the passive timer reaches 0 seconds.
The only thing that separates the passive timer from the active timer is that the passive timer is skipped when the trapped survivor, upon their RBT becoming activated by a generator, wasĀ NOTĀ dying or hooked within the last 15 seconds.
Therefore, if the condition for a passive timer is not met, the RBT will instead begin its active timer.
0 -
I feel like this is overly complicated for a killer that's already gimped of her lethality with her power.
0 -
I don't know if you're saying this is a bad or good idea because you're just saying my idea is complicated and that's it.
I'm just going to take an educated guess and say you don't like this idea because you believe it's not necessary.
However, my counter argument is that adding this idea opens new doors for buffing the RBTs.
- Since we added a grace period for survivors who are weakened or disabled, this means we can make direct changes to the RBT without worrying about killing those survivors.
0 -
So the passive timer only starts if the survivor's trap is activated while they are either dying or hooked, or were recently dying or hooked, and if not then it just goes straight to the active timer. Is that correct?
0 -
That is correct Fiby Wiby! š
0 -
Right, got it. So now that we're on the same page, may I ask what the rationale behind introducing a passive timer was? Because I would have thought that people already die from the traps so rarely - it happens, but it's unusual - that adding extra time for them to try to get it off seems like an unnecessary nerf to the killer.
0 -
There are good reasons behind adding a passive timer:
Weakened or disabled survivors are given more time from the RBT to recover, which means we can make direct changes to the RBT without worrying any survivor are put into an unwinnable situation over something they couldn't control.
Also, since you're implying the passive timer is all bad, you forget the part where if it doesn't active (survivor wasn't recently hooked or downed) then trapped survivors will have a shorter timer. The passive timer is skipped.
Direct changes can be making RNG more in favor of the killer.
Having the RBT activate after the Exit Gates are powered on (we will also have to pause the EGC when there's a RBT in play to make this happen).
Heck, we can increase the search time to make RBTs harder to remove and waste more time.
We don't have to worry about the RBTs becoming too lethal when survivors are given plenty of time to search boxes now that there is a passive timer. š
Long story short, this change gives the developers more freedom with changing the RBTs.
Post edited by NMCKE on0 -
My question is, why are we worried about the power killing survivors?
Sure, its not her main method of killing, its not even a frequent thing. But that doesn't mean she needs to lose her power's lethality all together.
Its her killer power. It should be something that has pressure to it, and while it wastes the survivor's time, that's all it kinda does. That's not to mention that the timer straight up stops within her terror radius.
Idk, I've never seen anyone complain about the RBT killing them, not when there's things like Moris and Myer's Tombstone addons to contend with. In my days playing Pig, I've only seen a handful of RBTs kill survivors since her release. And I mained Pig for a while, when her power was strongest.
1 -
That's not to mention that the timer straight up stops within her terror radius.
No it does not. It only stops when a Survivor is being chased, in the Dying State, or on a hook.
1 -
I recall there being a change where they made it stop in her terror radius. Was this reverted? I stopped playing the Pig a while ago so I'm a bit rusty on mechanical ends of things.
1 -
This was tested in a PTB alongside the EGC nerf, but it never made it to live because in practice it functioned as giving Pig Whispers base kit.
1 -
I don't mean this to be rude, but you're either only seeing this from one side or accidentally skipped something. I'll just explain things again and tell you why I believe this benefits everyone.
You say this will take away pressure on survivors, but my idea only takes away pressure on weakened survivors and increases pressure on survivors who got their bearings. Survivors who had time to recover from their weakened state, will have 2 minutes (Active Timer) to remove the RBT while weakened survivors get 3 minutes (Active Timer + Passive Timer).
This gives all survivors a fair chance to remove the RBT, regardless of the circumstances. Therefore, when the developers buff the RBTs, they won't have to worry about survivors dying to them due to unfair conditions.
Keep in mind, fair doesn't mean weak, as the majority of the community likes to think. Something can be strong and fair, if we take the right approach.
After we make this change, the developers can do this without killing innocent survivors:
- Survivors cannot remove the RBT on their first search.
- Rules Set NO.2 can be basekit.
- Increase search time.
- Etc...
- Etc...
The developers are given more possibilities now. š
0 -
An injured survivor does nothing for the killer. It gives them time to heal that they aren't doing a generator, or they just ignore the injury and continue working on gens and pressure the Killer back (And since the Survivor's pressure is permanent, that means far more than an M1 hit). So why are we concerned about an injured survivor? Its not like they have a significant weakness; an injured survivor can still loop a killer well, and completely turn the tide of a match on their own. There are plenty of matches where survivors will straight up not heal and keep pressuring gens.
I mean, lets look at all the circumstances required for the Pig to put on a RBT:
- Pig has to find a survivor.
- Pig has to chase, close out loops, and down the survivor, taking anywhere from 15 seconds to 2 minutes depending on if the survivor makes mistakes and the killer capitalizes on the mistakes.
- Pig has to put the Reverse Bear Trap on the survivors head.
- The Pig then has to wait until the next generator pops for the timer to actually start, in which time the RBT is still able to be freely removed from their head without the fear of it going off at all.
- If the RBT does go off and they didn't spend the free time they had searching, then they will have two minutes to get it off *provided they are not in a chase, dying, or on hook*
- The boxes they need are already highlighted.
There are so many factors for a RBT to actually kill a survivor, that its not a concern. There are no 'unfair' deaths from a RBT, I mean, the thing only activates based on something outside the Killer's own control.
So I don't understand why this grace period is necessary. The RBT has rarely killed, simply because of the large amount of required circumstances for the thing to even BEGIN ticking down.
1 -
An injured survivor does nothing for the killer.
I was correct, you accidentally skipped this part of my post: Please read this, it's from my original thread.
As you can see, being injured DOES NOT activate the passive timer. The only time a passive timer will active is if you been hooked or dying within the last 15 seconds, basically.
Now, with that settled, you're implying that RBTs aren't lethal at all, but this is where we differ in opinion. We're talking about RNG here, and whenever there's RNG, there's that chance where you are defaulted to dying.
You are not going to have everything in your favor as the survivor, that's not realistic. While there are those times where you get an ample amount of time to remove the RBT (it's not actived); there will also be those where you have to go fast while under pressure. There are a lot of variables to consider here, but I think we can all agree that getting killed over something you have no control over is "unfair". Getting bad variables shouldn't be an automatic death to the survivor or even close to it for that matter (since add-ons can make things more complicated).
Therefore, since those situations exist, we must add a passive timer to give everyone a fair chance, then buff the RBTs in other aspects. We can buff it because any survivor who dies to the RBT will not be from bad circumstances they had no control over. Any RBT kill is their fault ā not because they had to search 4 or 5 boxes.
This means the developers are given more freedom to do whatever the think fits best with the RBTs. Whereas before, they can't because it could mean a lot more survivors could die unfairly.
To repeat, we would need compensation buffs to make this idea amazing. My idea isn't good by itself, that might be why you dislike the idea because you think this is the only change I want for the RBTs. š
0 -
This whole "passive timer" idea is a good idea to add pressure to afflicted survivors and make the RBT less of a joke.
I still think that Pig can easily become a top-tier killer, or at least rival Ghostface with a few number tweaks in every other part of her kit, though. Buffing the consistent parts of her kit would make her significantly better.
0 -
Just curious, what made you like my passive timer idea? š
0 -
I kinda like the way this shakes out. I don't play Pig, but I've played against her a few times, and I think the slowdown helped her, but didn't really put pressure on the people wearing RBTs. In one match, I was able to run around for what must've been near half the game wearing one before I got too nervous and started looking for Jigsaw boxes.
I think having a killer who is built to slow down a match would be pretty helpful in the meta, and with a few tweaks, Pig could do it.
0 -
Seeing too many people run around freely and working on generators with not a care in the world. The trap is a joke. It's a temporary inconvenience outside of specific add-on combinations.
That being said, I'm largely fine with where the RBT is at the moment in terms of power, and feel that the rest of her kit should be looked at. Especially with the introduction of Ghostface and his clearly superior crouch.
0 -
I'll say this. It's an idea that I would hypothetically be down for testing if it ever came to it. I think of all the passive timer ideas you've tried, this is easily your best attempt at it because I think it actually does try to maintain pressure on Survivors who have had at least a small amount of time to search for Traps, even if you are also trying to ease things up on Survivors who didn't get that chance yet.
0 -
The situation you're describing, survivors who do that will be under tremendous pressure.
When a generator activates their RBT, the game will make a check: Has the survivor been hooked or dying within the last 15 seconds?
If the statement is true, they get 3:00, but if it's false, they get 2:00. š
0 -
I was thinking that it was if the trap hasn't turned on after a certain amount of time it activates, which would be much stronger.
0 -
Rules Set NO.2 (RSN2) could be made basekit, then we rework RSN2 to cause the RBT to activate immediately. š
I like your suggestion!
0 -
I've said before to others do NOT make RSN.2 base. It'll just force higher rank survivors onto a generator, which is the exact opposite if what we want.
My personal findings are that a trapped survivor will not be on a generator, unless they're stupid or have a death-wish, so you can largely ignore them and focus on the other people who should still be on those generators.
0 -
If a trapped survivor does generators, here's what you're getting:
- Pressure, they are on a timer now.
- Add-ons such as Tampered Timer, Jigsaw's Sketch, and Gears will make RBTs very difficult / time consuming to remove.
- If they are interrupted, they will likely die depending on how many boxes they need to do.
- If they complete the final generator, any trapped survivor will be good as dead because you can open the Exit Gates. The EGC will just kill them.
- [If my idea is implemented] Since they likely weren't hooked or dying in the last 15 seconds, they will have 2:00 to remove the RBT (free Tampered Timer). This is without add-ons.
I remember getting a free 4K because survivors did generators trapped and they couldn't leave before the EGC expired. š
0 -
I wasn't forgetting about the passive timer's activation conditions, I just wasn't sure it was necessary in the first place. Part of the problem was that I had the impression that the default timer currently is less than two minutes and you had just increased it across the board, which was an assumption I made without looking it up, so my mistake. I would recommend including the fact that the current timer is 2.5 minutes in your OP, though, to avoid such confusion.
Also, you say this will make it easier for the devs to make adjustments to the RBT. Just out of curiosity, what kind of changes are you imagining that this might enable?
0 -
There's a lot open for the developers because they can make changes without fear of forcing RBTs killing survivors who didn't have the chance to search boxes:
- RSN2 as basekit
This will cause survivors either waste time or wait for their RBT to active to see auras. If they wait for their RBT to active (they or someone powers a generator), they will likely be under tremendous pressure because they have to search, at basekit, 4 boxes within 2:00 (since they likely had the time to recover from being hooked or downed).
Therefore, survivors doing generators instead of wasting time will have a pretty high mortality rate alone. Now, imagine if you used Tampered Timer, which reduces the active timer by 0:30 and gives the active timer a total duration of 1:30. We're talking about needing great RNG on your side or else, it's game over.
Keep in mind, this only happens if they DON'T get the passive timer. If you treat the RBT seriously, you won't be under a lot of pressure because you probably got a head start or received a passive timer from being hooked while your RBT activated.
- Increase base search time
- Skill check success and bonus zones are reduced when a survivor with an active RBT is searching a box
We can have this or RSN2, since if survivors do generators, they are severely punished by the RBT because they won't get a passive timer. You only get the passive timer if a generator activates your RBT when you been hooked or downed within the last 15 seconds.
We can safely make changes without fear it will kill people who genuinely couldn't search boxes. So, if you're hooked and a generator activates your RBT, you're fine, you won't be killed by the combos I mentioned above because you are given extra time to search boxes. š
0 -
I see. Well, there could be something I'm missing, but when you put it like that it sounds fairly reasonable. I see where you're coming from now š
1 -
Thanks Fibi Wiby! š
I believe you understand everything, it's not bad when you look at every scenario.
0 -
I like all of it but how the White Meter during EGC works
I'd prefer it to heavily reduce how delayed EGC is, sorta like 2x the amount the grey meter does, it may still be very slow but it still will make EGC threatening after the RBT is off the survivor
0 -
Well, that's already the case with my suggestions. š
If there's less than 5 seconds on the EGC and you receive a RBT, getting it off will just unpause the EGC and kill you instantly (unless there's a box within 5 seconds to an Exit Gate).
0 -
Yes.
+1
0
