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Need for mid-game collapse
I'm being partially facetious. But, there is a serious problem in this game that has never been addressed since its launch. Most any killer can testify the irritation of the game being held hostage by hiding survivors. This is obviously only problematic when you have two or more remaining survivors. It is further issue when the hatch has yet to spawn. Sure: let them regroup to heal, cleanse totems, search chests.. but something needs to be done once they still refuse to work on generators.
The obvious solution is that, if no generators are being worked on within X amount of time (say, two minutes?), then survivors begin to get idle crows, and/or their auras revealed. Again, proposing this only for two or more remaining survivors. If they literally cannot do anything else but work on generators, then make them do so. Don't waste a killer's time.
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I don’t agree. There needs to be something that registers nothing is being done for a certain amount of time though, THEN maybe a collapse timer. However, as a killer you need to make the decision to either look for someone or let them do something....killers and survivors are equally at fault. If you know they’re going to be scared and hide...let them work on a gen for a bit. Give both yourself and them a chance at least
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I see it like this, if the survivor team is losing and need time to plan how to come back, it shouldn't take 5-10 minutes to make that choice. Either you make a move within a reasonable time limit or face the consequences.
If there are two survivors remaining and there hasn't been any repairs in the last two minutes, the EGC will activate.
When the EGC activates this way:
- Both Exit Gates are powered and can be opened in 20 seconds.
- Both Exit Gates are blocked by the Entity (survivors can't leave through the Exit Gates) until a generator is completed.
- Generators aren't blocked by the Entity.
- Any repair progress made on generators before the EGC will instantly regress all of its progress.
- The EGC will expire at 50% the speed.
This should be fair because survivors are given ample time to make a choice. 😁
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How do you distinguish between a situation where survivors are hiding because they aren't interested in playing properly, and one where they're hiding because it's the smartest thing to do? Is it really reasonable to punish survivors for not rushing the objective in a scenario where doing so would be a death sentence?
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Yeah, but you have no idea how many games i have played when there was 2 survivors left, 2 gens needed to be repaired, all 4 gens were very close. As a killer i have to patrol these gens, while the survivors were just hiding in the corner of the map without getting crows because they were taunting (for some reason, if you taunt you don't get crows). What am i supposed to do? Just go and wait somewhere until a gen is being worked on? Just give up and go to the corner of the map cause these survivors are keeping me hostage?
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I understand the experience, I've been there and it's not fun, but we can't punish people for making strategically sound plays. That's why I asked how we're proposing to distinguish between survivors in the position you're describing, and survivors who are still invested in the game but trying not to get themselves killed.
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You simply can't distinguish, just like before the EGC update the last survivor won't do a generator to spawn the hatch in because it was never the right choice — it's a death sentence. Survivors with good intentions don't touch a generator, and survivors with bad intentions don't touch a generator. This had a consequence of killers needing to search the entire map multiple times in hopes of finding the last survivor, which usually took anywhere between 10-30 minutes.
To put simply, we can't differentiate what survivor is taking things seriously so something had to give for the sake of the game not wasting other's time.
This is a similar situation, doing a generator gets you caught and it's unlikely you have a long enough chase for the other survivor to do a generator (if they do one at all). Then you have to run out the Exit Gates, which again, you have to figure out which Exit Gate is being opened. Too many conditions for the survivor being chased to escape makes it a terrible idea touching a generator, especially when if the chaser dies — the other survivor gets a chance at the hatch.
Déjà vu: here we are, back in a similar situation where survivors, regardless if they have good intentions or not, will not do a generator because it's basically a death sentence. The killer will have to search the map, probably wasting a bunch of time with a very small chance of finding one of the two survivors. Something needs to happen, and that something can't be the killer wasting time playing Hide and Seek World Championship.
I know you mean well Fibi, but you can't always make everyone happy, there are some things you have to accept. At least with my suggestion, it forces the survivors to do something and it ends the game if they choose not to. Which was the same reason why we have the EGC, to end the game instead of it carrying on.
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The difference is the EGC gives survivors a fighting chance because it powers the gates (random unfair gate spawns notwithstanding). Forcing them to sentence themselves to death or be sentenced to death automatically is not a choice, and it's not a fair way to end the game when half the survivors are still alive. I'm not looking to make everyone happy, but I'm not going to accept that easily that there is no way to resolve this situation in a way that gives both sides a deserved chance at victory.
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The MGC will just force the survivors to act within 240 seconds and if they don't, they probably weren't going to do anything anyways. It's definitely possible for a survivor to get chased for 80 seconds and leave through the Exit Gates with some well used tiles. Keep in mind that you only need to complete one generator to unblock the Exit Gates, not however many is left before the MGC.
I just gave you what come to mind first, so of course my idea won't be perfect. I can always improve upon my idea to give survivors more of a chance to survive (keep in mind this time, two survivors can potentially escape, not one). However, my point still stands that it's either this or a game that practically lasts forever.
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Forgive me, I'm a bit confused. You said "it's unlikely you have a long enough chase for the other survivor to do a generator" and now you're saying "It's definitely possible for a survivor to get chased for 80 seconds and leave through the Exit Gates with some well used tiles", which sounds like you're contradicting yourself.
If you're saying it's unlikely but still possible, then I would argue that it should be more likely, because as I said, half the team is still alive, so I don't think they deserve to be so far on the back foot as to have all the odds stacked against them. They need, as I said, a fighting chance, and I don't think that is one because I'm inclined to agree more with your first statement than your second, bearing in mind that this would be a universal change and the vast majority of survivors are not at 2-minute-chases level of skill.
I'm not saying your idea is rubbish, I think it has some merit actually, but it seemed like you were saying that I "have to accept" it as it is, and I was taking issue with that idea precisely because I think it could be improved upon. I wasn't saying that we have to keep things as they are, but I do feel strongly that any hypothetical changes we make shouldn't put either side at an undeserved advantage or disadvantage. Hopefully that clears things up a bit 😊
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Sorry for the long wall of text, this is probably one of my longest comments to date — heads up! 😊
Forgive me, I'm a bit confused. You said "it's unlikely you have a long enough chase for the other survivor to do a generator" and now you're saying "It's definitely possible for a survivor to get chased for 80 seconds and leave through the Exit Gates with some well used tiles", which sounds like you're contradicting yourself.
It's okay, I read over my comment and I knew you was going to bring that up. Allow me to clarify this better! ☺
Currently, if you're one of the last two survivors, touching a generator is very dangerous depending on how many generators are remaining. If there are 5 generators remaining, it's almost impossible to run a decent killer while the other survivor repairs all 5 generators. To put simply, you almost have better odds winning the lottery than achieving this naturally.
With the MGC, regardless if you had 5/4/3/2/1 generator(s) left before the MGC, it only requires a single generator to unblock the Exit Gates. Running a killer for a single generator is definitely possible if you perform some good plays and / or have pallets to waste — this is difficult but not far out of reach. Again, my idea is just what came to mind first, I didn't put time into this idea so there's always room to expand — feel free to add on to it!
Hopefully, that clears that part up, and thank you for asking because it helps us get on the same page here!
I'm not saying your idea is rubbish, I think it has some merit actually, but it seemed like you were saying that I "have to accept" it as it is, and I was taking issue with that idea precisely because I think it could be improved upon. I wasn't saying that we have to keep things as they are, but I do feel strongly that any hypothetical changes we make shouldn't put either side at an undeserved advantage or disadvantage. Hopefully that clears things up a bit 😊
I skipped the second paragraph because I kind of answered it and anything I missed will be covered here!
About the part about me saying you having to accept this is because we have to make a sacrifice. Either play Hide and Seek World Championship for 10-20 minutes or have a mechanic that ends the game within a few minutes. Yes, as you fairly pointed out, the mechanic isn't perfect and you, in my perspective, implied that we shouldn't have a mechanic that solves that problem due to that. That's why I said you have to accept my idea because the positives outweigh the negatives and it's highly unlikely my idea would be prematurely released — it will be revised and changed for the balance of the game. As you just clarified in your comment, you didn't mean to imply that, so my apologies for that.
You mention that survivors should have a fair chance because there are two survivors remaining. However, this is were our opinions differ because if there are two survivors remaining and they aren't confident enough to touch a generator. That means the killer has the advantage; we shouldn't take away the killer's advantage because there are two survivors left. Therefore, I believe the last two survivors should be at a moderate disadvantage, but not severely at a disadvantage like the EGC. Keep in mind that two survivors can potentially escape in this situation, unlike the EGC where one can escape — there's more on the line for the killer.
If I was forced to improve my idea, I'll say give a repair speed bonus to both survivors that's strength is dependent on how many generators was completed before the MGC.
Generators Completed:
- 1 Generator Completed: 25% Boost
- 2 Generators Completed: 50% Boost
- 3 Generators Completed: 75% Boost
- 4 Generators Completed: 100% Boost
How does this sound Fiby Wiby? 😁
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Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting we take away the killer's snowball advantage - I'm suggesting we don't increase that advantage artificially and undeservedly.
It's also worth noting that while the number of generators remaining does make a difference, if only one generator has to be completed in order to power the gates, the less generators there are remaining, the more of a disadvantage the survivors are at because the killer has less to patrol. It's entirely likely that the killer might just patrol and refuse to engage in chases beyond the first hit, thereby making repairing that one generator almost impossible, and that needs to be taken into account when trying to design a solution as well.
With that in mind, I think I like your speed boost suggestion. I'm not 100% sold on its viability, but I can't see any glaring faults in it, so I would say we've officially reached the "might be okay but would need looking at in a testing environment" stage of development. I did have one thought that it might be similarly unfair to the killer to give the survivors such an artificial advantage, but then it occurred to me that this whole system is designed to benefit killers in the first place, so that's probably okay with all things considered.
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Thanks for the clarification, I thought you implied it should be a 50/50 for both sides when the survivors definitely don't deserve a 50/50 exactly! I believe it should be 40/60 in my opinion since the survivors failed to complete all generators!
Also, thanks for pointing out a flaw in my idea, I actually didn't think about killers just patrolling generators until the timer runs out and getting an undeserved 4K.
Since you inspired me, I might create a thread about my idea and it will be more polished than the one I suggested in this thread.
I wanna say thank you for discussing this with me, it's pretty nice to have a down-to-earth balance conversation with someone! 😍
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a gen hasn't been touched for 30 seconds? it starts degrading. If it gets tapped? its only protected from degrading for as long as it was worked on.
If no gen has been touched for 3+ minutes, the entity gets angry and makes survivors make a loud noise notification once every minute, regardless if they're in a locker.
ez fix. its basically like making the crows less exploitable.
To clarify, this is actually from my frustration at being the 2nd to last survivor left, trying to work on gens, while some p3 claudette is surfing from locker to locker so she can get hatch. Thats the worst example of holding a game hostage i can think of.
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Go for it! I'll be sure to check it out when you do 😊
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If there was an indication on the HUD that showed which survivor(s) can hear the terror radius and/or are being chased, then the survivor not being chased would more likely work on a gen instead of hiding. You know, just like SWF whom already have this information do.
Post edited by Nos37 on1 -
Hoping to have a dev review and respond to this issue. It's tiring to have games held hostage when survivors refuse to do their objective after a reasonable amount of time. Can something please be done about it?
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There's no need for this and it would get very complicated to balance, because it would be difficult to tell when they're playing strategically and when they're not, or if they're simply boosted. When they hide it can be annoying, but they really can't hide for long even without touching the gens. Look and listen for clues. In 1k hours I've never had anyone hide more than 5 minutes in the worst of case, that I can count on one hand. Also, if you want a MGC for these situations, you'd also have to penalize killers who force a 3 gen and never commit to chase after that.
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