Killer complains: which are true and which should be ignored?

chenais

Right now, they are quite a few mad killers out there. Since the ruin nerf, there have been a lot of complaining: which are legitimate and which are not?

The first thing I saw is: gen rushing. Killers want to reduce generator speed. While it is true that in some cases, gen speed is unstoppable, it is mostly due to swf and crutch chase stuff that makes it way to hard to catch survivors. Gen rushing is the symptom of the issues I mentioned above, not a problem by itself.

I also saw quite a lot of killers complain about swf. To decide how bad they are, I decided to compare the communication advantage to perks. The perk I will compare it with is: bond. Since there is no distance limit for communication, I will assume a distance twice as big as bond (64 meters) is similar. This is why I assume swf have the perk bond twice. The second factor is the fraction of your team you can communicate with: if you can communicate with only one teammate, then the "bond" would only have 1/3 of its efficiency. Lastly, the number of people who are in the swf determinates the final number of perks. So basically: 2 x fraction of teamates you can see x number of swf members.

1 group of 2 man swf = 2 x 1/3 x 2= 1+1/3, which would be closer to 1 perk added for all players than 2 perks added for all players. +1 perk in total, balanced.

2 groups of 2 man swf = 2 x 1/3 x 4= 2 + 2/3 perks, which is closer to 3 perks added in total than 2, so +3 perks, starting to be slightly op.

3 man swf = 2 x 2/3 x 3 = 4 perks, which is +1 perk for each player. This is not really balanced.

4 man swf = 2 x 3/3 x 4= 8 perks, which is +2 perks per player! If you say that +2 perks per player is balanced, then your trolling.

So in the end, 4 man swf is a legitimate complain and 2 groups of 2 man swf / 3 man swf could take slight nerfs. Maybe give 1 additionnal perk to the killer for those and 2 perks for 4 man swf.

Then, they are the "survivors have broken stuff" complain. Killers complain about keys, and second chance perks (exhaustion perks, decisive, borrowed time and unbreakable). It is true that keys and exhaustion perks are pretty crutch: a second chance for the survivor that failed to repair generators / go threw the exit without the killer having much counter-play is stupid. Also, exhaustion perks give survivors a second chance in a chase where they messed up and played badly without the killer being able to counter. However, ds, unbreakable and bt are fine / necessary. Like sweaty killers that facecamp, tunnel and slug you into oblivion is pretty ridiculous and those things are necessary tools to counter them. Also, adrenaline is situationnal and sprint burst has a downside, so those perks are fine.

Lastly, there is the "bad map designs" complain. It is true that god windows that have no counter play are stupid, because they take no skill and force the killer to leave the chase. Also, to many good loops spawning close to each other = infinite. However, the "totem placements suck" and "maps are to big" are just killers wanting their 4k. For the totems, they give a huge advantage if you can keep them: I have got use out of them a lot of time. Perks should not just be "easy 4k" stuff. Also, big maps can be dealt with by a lot of speed killer, and more often than not, a gen rush due to a to big map is due to crutches or swf.

In conclusion, it is true that killers have quite a few crappy things to deal with, but they tend to make it look bigger than it is truly. And you, what do you think are legitimate killer complains?

Cheers

The way I see it is that if someone backs it up with good evidence that's true, I'll agree with them. My mind is constantly flickering between ds is balanced and ds is unbalanced due to people being able to make good arguments.

Reborn2020

Here are the valid complaints so far:

1. Auto aim
2. DS
3. SWF on comms.

Humanarian

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/138536/killer-complains-which-are-true-and-which-should-be-ignored

A good topic to discuss and a really good analisys. I sincirely thank you for being cold-blooded, logical and fair in your approach. Dealing with such things must be based on facts, not emotions. And that's exactly what you've been reviewing: the facts.

You see, the thing about SWF is... Well, the way the game is designed, it's not Survivor vs Killer, it's the Team of Survivors vs Killer. And SWF is able to realize the team's potential to the fullest due to communicating with each other and trusting each other, something that 4 random Survivors would struggle to do, to say the least. But as SWF clearly shows us, the way the game is currently ballanced, the team of Survivors have a much bigger potential than many Killers, and that all comes down mostly to how much the team is able to push the gen speed by using all of the Perks and Add-Ons capable of doing so. The result is... well, it's so ridiculous that I, as a Killer main, would deffinitely agree to have all of my game-slowing Perks and Add-Ons completely removed in exchange for the Survivors losing every gen-speeding Perks and Items. So, yes, I believe that despite SWF, the problem still lies in the gen speed, more precisely in the mere fact that there is a possibility of rising it so ridiculously high.

You are also completely on-point with your opinion on the complaints about the exhaustion Perks and Keys. Some exhaustion Perks give the Survivors a rather cheesy way out of the situation that is completely their fault to being with. It's not a good play, it's just a free "indulgence". And that especially hurts if they use it in the situation when they are 100% outplayed by the Killer who had to pull off an impressive mind-game to get to them. Things like that bring another problem into the game - and that is some sort of Survivor superiority complex, which leads to Survivors "dancing" in the Killer's face or at the Exit Gate, then unleashing their (not very impressive) vocabulary in the post-game chat. I believe the reason behind that is the fact that the game forgives so many of their mistakes and still allows them to get away that they begin to genuinely believe in a lie that they are incredibly good at the game. Though if the feeling of being good at something leads to such attitude... That's a different kind of problem entirely.

As for the Keys... Well, I can think of a way of ballancing them, along with Mori's. I believe it would be a good idea to apply a Mori effect on a Survivor who has the Key. Or better yet... on a Survivor who has brought the Key, so there would be no abuse by leaving the Key somewhere on the ground until it's needed. That would link bringing the Key to the risk of getting Mori'd. And as for the Mori... How about tremendously increasing the chance of finding a Key for all Survivors who face the Killer with Mori? The buff would last until the Key is found by someone, because who needs 4 Keys? That way, any Killer who would bring Mori to the Trial would be forced to face the risk of Survivors using the cheesy way to escape, which, in turn, would ensure the Killer losing their rank points and wasting the Offering.

I completely agree with you on the topic of Borrowed Time, Decisive Strike and Unbreakable. Those Perks are specifically designed to punish certain dirty plays made by Killer and can in no way be considered a free ticked out of the bad play made by a Survivor. They are fair.

And I agree with your opinion on the bad totem spots problem. Bringing a Hex Perk to the Trial is linked to the risk of losing it in exchange of it's power. After all, Survivors too can lose their Perks. Those 3 ones mentioned above would be a good example as they could be completely impossible to use in case the Killer's playstyle doesn't allow them to activate. If anything, the only change I personally would like to be made about totems is giving them invulnerabilty for the first minute of the game (or even less).

As for the big maps... Well, the thing about that is yes, a high-speed or teleporting Killer can definitely deal with them, but some Killers are just unable to. So, should they be forced to burn the map Offerings all the time then? I don't think so. When it comes to the maps, something must be done to achieve the ballance for both Killers and Survivors. The maps should make the game more interesting, not be an element of random advantage/disadvantage.

The only major thing I disgree with you on is your wording "easy 4k". Playing Killer is itself a hard mode of Dead by Daylight, and in the real match there is no such thing as easy 4K. It's only possible if Survivors allow it to happen, weither on purpose or not.

And as you say "they tend to make it look bigger than it is truly", I would like to point out that the problems as they are now are already big enough. I believe, those players you were refering to try to make it look bigger for but one purpose: to attract more attention to it. A move of desparation, but honestly... at this point, their desparation is perfectly justified.

XRuecian

First off, its probably most important to point out that most of the killer problems only really show up and become prevalent in the higher ranks. If you are a mid to low rank survivor, you probably won't notice many of these as being a problem yet.

Genspeed in general isn't the problem, its usually the speed that the first generator pops that is the problem. Because this first generator can be done so quickly, there are only a few killers you can use to properly even put pressure on it. Especially on some maps more than others. I never played killer before Ruin was nerfed, so i never really got used to what that was like. But coming in now, there are times when i enter a game, and depending on what killer i am playing, i will only have enough time to check one generator out of a possible three that they might have spawned on, and if i choose wrong, they get a free generator without any counterplay, it was like rolling the dice. And if you are playing trapper, well, you basically give them a free generator regardless of where they spawn. Since this game is heavily momentum based on both sides, if you give them a generator for free, then the only way to catch back up and have a chance is often to start playing dirty and rely on slugging or things like NOED.

Also Bond is nowhere near a good enough perk to compare to SWFs information sharing ability, even if you made it mapwide. Even if every survivor got bond for free, it wouldn't even be CLOSE to how much information advantage a SWF group will have. Bond will not tell you which generator is closest to being finished when one of your teammates had to leave it and now you are looking for one to complete. Bond will not tell you where the killer is, which a SWF can easily do anytime one of them sees you. Bond will not tell your teammates which pallets are used up so they don't accidentally run to a deadzone during a chase. Bond doesn't tell you which of your teammates has DS, Unbreakable, or Borrowed time so that you can use them to their maximum potential strategically. Bond doesn't alert the rest of the team that the killer is running a specific perk when you notice it being used so that they can play around it more tactfully. I could probably keep going, these little bits of information stack up and the advantage becomes enormous. It is basically second to having wallhacks while stream sniping the killer.

As for 'survivors have broken stuff' I don't think anyone can argue that Keys aren't good for the game in their current state. Moris either, to be fair.

Second chance perks have a place in this game, and they do help against tunneling and camping, at least a little. However, It's not that DS shouldn't be in the game, it just shouldn't be used as an offensive tool instead of a defensive one. They need to take out its offensive capabilities. When someone gets unhooked right in my face, and then jumps on a generator right beside the hook because they know they have DS, that is NOT using DS to counter tunneling. Now the killer is forced to either give up the generator for free, or waste time getting DSed. And a smart survivor won't even let you slug them to counter this, they will just run into a locker to force you to pick them up.

If you don't think some of the totem spawns are total bullshit, then you obviously have never used hex perks. There are many games where your hexed totem will just spawn right up on top of the hill RIGHT BESIDE where the 4 survivors spawn so they can all see it within the first 3 seconds of the game. When your hex totem is broken, you are literally down to 3 perks now. You have to finish the game with 3 perks. Do i think these powerful hex perks should have risk associated? Of course. But it should at least require the survivors to look for it, not spawn out in the open without them even having to try. Taking a hex perk right now is like a 50/50 chance whether it will last more than 60 seconds into the game.

Some of the maps are pretty annoying for killers, but its really only some of the coldwind farms layouts that takes the cake. It just has an unlimited amount of space and pallets as well as well zero visibility and a building that can be looped forever.

Anyways, these are just replies to what you said.

If i had to give my opinions on the real problems that are affecting killers in order of priority, i would say...

1st is Matchmaking - the fact that killers are having to go up against teams many ranks higher than them is amplifying all of the other problems, this should be priority number one to fix.

2nd is Killer Power Disparity. - There are several killers who lack enough pressure to even have a real chance. Trapper is forced to spend the first minute of the match findind, picking up and setting traps that may or may not even be stepped on and are fully countered by map users. And even if they are stepped on, there is a fair chance that the survivor will escape it within 4 seconds before you can even walk around a wall. His killer power is a mixture slowing himself down while hoping the survivors mess up and then rolling dice. Other less mobile killers have a chance that they wont even get to the first generator before it gets finished, instantly putting them into a dire situation that is very difficult to recover from. The entire game is balanced around speed, and the way that killers slow down survivors (aka play the game) is to apply pressure. There are just a lot of killers right now that do not have the capability to apply adequate pressure and must play the game at a disadvantage. More killers need to have their kits closer in line to Ghostface, Huntress or Oni. Oni has a good balanced kit. There are times when he is average, and times when he is very dangerous, allowing him to apply pressure when he needs to at a critical time. This gives him the ability to make plays, rather than just rely on randomly stumbling across survivors and hoping you down them fast enough to matter. Then you look at a killer like wraith or legion, who might run up to a generator with 3 or 4 people on it at lightspeed. He can hit them, they will run, but he has no way at all of actually pressuring that generator. He can chase one guy, and the others will just finish the generator right away. Yet if they tried to come back to that generator right away against an Oni, Ghostface, or Huntress, they risk all getting downed one after another because these killers actually have enough potential to apply pressure where needed.

3rd is Uncounterable uses of second chance perks. - For the most part, i think Unbreakable is fine, i think borrowed time is fine, and with just a couple of tweaks to make DS un-abusable, it also will be fine. But i do find that putting all three of these perks together on all 4 survivors adds up to too many second chances that makes it extremely extremely difficult for a killer to deal with. ESPECIALLY end game. There is absolutely nothing a killer can do, no matter how well he plays endgame, if he manages to down one person, and they have unbreakable, DS, and borrowed time, they are getting away for free. I think second chance perks should be simply disabled once the end game collapse starts. You shouldn't be able to unhook someone, and then have them be protected by an invincibility shield of Borrowed Time free hit, DS and Unbreakable; leaving the killer with 0 chance of fighting back. Once the endgame starts, these perks put together change from 'second chance' perks to 'free escape' perks.

4th would be Keys and Moris. - I haven't personally had too many issues with people using keys. And i don't ever use Moris. But it is still pretty annoying when the game ends at halftime and then you derank because of it. Feels pretty wrong, should be fixed somehow. Keys probably should have a time required to unlock a hatch rather than be near instantaneous, to at least give the killer a chance to stop it. Mori's should only be usable on people who would die on hook anyways, regardless of which mori offering you bring.

As for SWF groups, i can't really put these into the list properly. I don't think removing SWFs from the game would be a good idea, it's fun to play games with your friends, and that should be an option, period. But they probably should find a way to bring the capabilities of solo players and SWF groups closer together, so that regardless if a killer is going up against a SWF or not, it wouldn't feel so drastically different. They have stated that they want to bring solo players information sharing/gathering abilities up to be more in line with SWF groups, that way its more or less the same regardless. And then they were going to buff some killers to be able to stay on par with those changes. We will see if that is what happens, and if they do it right or not...

Humanarian

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1167443#Comment_1167443

While we're on topic of SWF groups, I believe, it would be worth mentioning that full 4-people SWF groups can apply some advanced strategies like having 1 Survivor with "Object of Obsession" Perk and call out everything that Killer does. That simply destroys Stealth-based Killers, unless they have brought a way of applying a Blindness status effect on that Survivor.

I like your idea of disabling the Perks at the Endgame Collapse. The problem is that, if I understand correctly, the game definition of the Endgame Collapse is when the timer starts, be that either by opening the Exit Gates or by closing the Hatch. And that's where the problem of 99-ing the Exit Games comes into play. In my opinion, the timer should start at the very moment the last gen is finished, so Survivors wouldn't have an option of fooling around for an unspecified amount of time, then getting away for free.

As for the Keys and Mori's, I'd recommend to read my previous post, where I've suggested what I believe to be a solid method of ballancing them. I probably should start a separate discussion for that idea.

XRuecian

Well of course 99ing the gates is also a problem, i have already made my opinion on this in other topics that the gates should regress so that they cannot be safely 99ed. Though i guess starting endgame collapse after the last generator is also an option, they might have to extend the timer a bit longer to compensate.