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Do you think DS is fine in it's current state?
Comments
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My problem with DS is it is so versatile. Its a free 60 seconds of invulnerability. And that 60 seconds is long from the killer's point of view.
It can also allow survivors to make mistakes they actually shouldn't get away with. A common example is this: I hook, then I try to find the unhooker, but since the guy with DS acts like an idiot and lets me find him, say, 45 seconds into their DS. I chase and he gets into a locker. I'll take him out, because of course he shouldn't have it, it's been longer than 60 seconds, since MYC ran out. But... no, he still has it and used it against me.
This perk can affect an entire game. And, it makes me want to tunnel him since I know that he doesn't have DS.
It was designed to be an anti tunnel perk. If anything, it encourages you to tunnel the striker since it tells you that they don't have DS anymore.
And it's really boring to play against. Leave on the ground or be striked. That's not very fun options. It forces a lose lose. And there are 4 of them on a team, because it is a meta perk at red ranks, where you can't afford to take the stun. And that's not mentioning the 4 adrenalines, the 4 BTs, or the 4 Exhaustion perks you have to deal with in a match. It gets real tedious to go against when you have R1 survivors using all the strongest survivor perks against you when you just want to have a fun match.
I would rework it like this: You can use it twice per game, and it's base timer is 60 seconds. However, Getting on a gen, getting in a locker, or getting fully healed will deactivate the perk. Someone else getting hooked will also deactivate the perk, because you are not getting tunneled anymore.
This would be a true anti tunneling perk, with the added caveat that they must be getting tunneled to use it. They could use it twice per match, only if the killer is really tunneling. I would consider it fair at this point instead of a free 60 seconds of invulnerability. Technically this would be weaker against all killers but really strong against tunnellers and campers.
Also, Enduring should work against it because that nerf to Enduring only made it useful with Spirit Fury, which is a real shame, but that's a topic for another post.
TL;DR: DS is too good at it's job and needs only a minor rework to be balanced for being a true anti-tunneling perk.
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Offerings are one time use. Perks are multi use and permanently unlocked. DS is very versatile for its' intentions (anti-tunneling), and doesn't deserve to be. I get hit by DS not because I tunnel, but because the 60 second time period is absurdly long and they act like idiots when running the perk.
On the survivor side, it gives 60 seconds of being slugged, if they do down you quickly, or 60 seconds to be invulnerable for your team. That is unbelievably powerful. And that doesn't even mention if they have Unbreakable, which combos really well with DS.
I gave a suggestion on how to actually make DS an anti-tunnel perk on my comment. And Borrowed Time is a meta perk right now, which counters camping as well (with no downside except for putting the unhooker at more risk).
DS also encourages tunneling after its use because they no longer have the shield they were betting on having later.
That skill check is easy to hit. It's just an Overcharge skill check. That is an easy one to hit.
Sure, Ebonies can be reworked: Everyone hooked once before use (that way people don't tunnel). I don't care, as they are by far less common than the DS, Adrenaline, BT, and Exhaustion perk of your choice meta we have now. And Moris don't win you games. You can have a mori and still lose because the game ends before you can use it.
And if we are nerfing Moris (which need actual skill from the killer to pull off well, not just for one or two kills), then we absolutely need a nerf to keys. They are just a one button free escape (and in this current genrush meta, where the first 3 can go in 2 minutes, meaning the hatch will spawn if one dies, that will be an easy escape). If I kill everyone and close hatch at 5 gens, they can just escape for free without needing to go to the doors. It's ridiculous.
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That... Thats kinda the problem
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"Its a free 60 seconds of invulnerability."
I honestly can't stand this argument. Survivors are not invulnerable when they have DS. You can't pick them up or grab them. There is a MASSIVE different between those 2 things. Saying they are invulnerable implies you can't do anything to them, when in reality you can. You can hurt them and slug them. That's not invulnerable. A slugged survivor is as productive as a hooked survivor. In other words, not productive at all. Slugging creates a huge amount of pressure.
You really make it sound like there is not a single thing you can do because they are "invulnerable". This is so far from the truth. You just can't put them on a hook for 60s. That's not invulnerable.
"It can also allow survivors to make mistakes they actually shouldn't get away with. A common example is this: I hook, then I try to find the unhooker, but since the guy with DS acts like an idiot and lets me find him, say, 45 seconds into their DS. I chase and he gets into a locker. I'll take him out, because of course he shouldn't have it, it's been longer than 60 seconds, since MYC ran out. But... no, he still has it and used it against me."
This too is wrong. The survivor is baiting you and you took the bait. That's not a problem with the perk, that's a problem with YOU. He wanted you to chase him and grab him out of the locker. I also seriously doubt that if MYC ran out this person would still have DS. Video or it never happened, or this person was not the one rescued when MYC activated. Again, that's on you for making the mistake, it's not the survivor making a mistake. The survivor made a good play and baited you, and you took the bait. Simple as that. Accept that you got outplayed and stop blaming the perk. This is really what bothers me about killer mains' attitudes towards DS. "It's the perk/survivors fault, I played perfectly I should be rewarded." No you ######### up. Accept it. Admit it. Stop acting like you are God's gift to DBD. You got DS'd and that's entirely on you. But very few killers are ever willing to admit this, because how can they ever make a mistake in a video game, right? It's always the survivors that messed up but got rescued by a perk SMH. Kinda like how killers messed up and didn't stop survivors from doing all the gens but got rescued by NOED. Deny it all you want, but following this logic this statement would be true.
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i dont like it, with tweaks to killer and perks like ruin changed you cant always just let people go and play a fair game, if anything you have to play dirtier than before and are forced to slug. while i dont mind the perk its active way too long, that person is either slugged or on a gen for near 60seconds, it also annoys me when iv hooked multiple people and still get hit by DS later on, if everyone runs the perk its a huge difference.. theres a reason its so meta, it requires no skill and provides huge benefits same as BT.
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They act like it is, which is the important part. If they don't willingly eat the DS to make it powerless, it will be a bigger and bigger thorn in the killer's side.
It's how survivors learn to use it at red ranks, which, when there is 4 of them, can be absolutely game breaking. Each one can change the route of a game (since it can eliminate killer progress, like every second chance perk), even if the killer is winning by a landslide, just because survivors can recover far more easily than killers can.
I explain that slugging is not a very fun option for the killer. It puts them in a lose lose situation, which survivors never get. Sure, it pressures survivors, but they can just recover to 99%, making them not have to waste that much time.
It wasn't bait, it was just them being toxic because they can. Because DS allows them to get away with it. I gave that situation as a common example. I stress this: It allows them to get away with being toxic.
There are lots of times where I have not tunneled but still get hit by DS. Not because I intended to (lots of times I will take the stun to get rid of it completely), but because the time for survivors is longer than for killers. Either that or the time crunch pressures the killer, forcing them to be as quick as possible. And there are recorded instances from people like Scott Jund, Otzdarva, and others that show that they did not tunnel the survivors, but still got hit by DS because the time is really long.
And it fails in its purpose as an anti-tunnel perk, since it lets the killer know they can tunnel that guy with no consequence.
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One more thing worth talking about in regards to you (and the guy you quoted) noone seems to want to talk about the fact that, when the person is slugged, a survivor can pick up a downed person really quick, not to mention that thrr are perks that allow a downed survivor to A. Pick themselves up or B. Make it easier for someone else to pick them up. Thats not pressure the killer gets. Cause the killer hits them, goes into blood cleaning animation, amd then gets absolutely nothing for it. They just have to walk away and pray that they can slug someone else in time so they can get yelled at for being a bad baby killer in chat. If survivors want killers to stop complaining about dumb mechanics, then stop abusing the mechanics and then getting rude with the killer when they manage to outplay it
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An easy fix would be if you perform any action other than vaulting or dropping a pallet while in a chase you lose DS. Also if you provide a protection hit for someone else you will lose DS. You could also only allow DS to activate if the killer is with a fixed 32m range
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I really don't get where this "DS is anti-tunnel" perspective comes from. Just because that is the primary purpose of the perk does not mean that is the EXCLUSIVE purpose. It is an defensive perk, it's not explicitly anti-tunnel. The sooner you realize that the sooner you can get over this irrational hatred of DS. A smart survivor would bait a killer into getting DS'd as a means to counter snowball pressure, which by all accounts is how killers actually win games. So if you have the ability to halt or reverse that, it's a good thing for survivors. Without the ability to stop a snowball, you would just being in a losing situation the moment it starts happening with no options to recover.
Like Unbreakable is anti-slug, but that's not its only use. It is also anti-anti-healing, as you can usually recover faster than it would take for someone to heal you with stacked anti-heal perks in play. Sprint Burst is a chase perk, but it's also a general time saver perk if you use it to simply traverse the map faster than you would normally. BT is anti-camping, but it could also be used as a protection perk if the person saved with BT takes a hit for the rescuer, for example if the killer has a one shot or if the rescuer is already injured.
Stop looking at perks as "this is what it is for and nothing else". It's totally fine for perks to have utility in other areas. There is nothing wrong with that.
Also just because someone makes smart use of a perk does not mean they are being toxic with it. If they say something nasty after the game ends or teabag at the gate, that's toxic. If they make a good play using a perk that's not exactly toxic, you're just assuming it is because you got outplayed.
"There are lots of times where I have not tunneled but still get hit by DS... there are recorded instances from people like Scott Jund, Otzdarva, and others that show that they did not tunnel the survivors, but still got hit by DS because the time is really long."
Then you made a mistake! Jesus F'ing Christ own up to it. You didn't pay attention to how long it's been since you last hooked this person. I've seen plenty of videos of Scott or Otz getting hit by DS and being completely amazed by it, but the fact remains THEY made the mistake. It wasn't the perk. It wasn't the survivor. The killer messed up and paid for it. I've been hit by DS too when I wasn't expecting it, but I'm not going to blame the game or other people for what is ultimately a failure on my part. If you actually pay attention to this stuff, you should never get hit be an unexpected DS.
"Sure, it pressures survivors, but they can just recover to 99%, making them not have to waste that much time."
Unless they have Unbreakable, they will still be on the ground indefinitely until either a survivor or the killer picks them up (or they bleed out). That means at least 1 other survivor has to stop what they are doing to help this person. That is 2 survivors not doing gens, which is where the pressure comes from. You definitely watch Scott and Otz, both of them would tell you that slugging creates a lot of pressure on survivors. It doesn't matter if they can be picked up in less than a second, it's the fact that they can't pick themselves up that is the time waster.
"I explain that slugging is not a very fun option for the killer."
This I really don't get. "It's not fun for killer." So what is fun, picking them up and putting them on the hook? I really don't get it. If your goal is to create pressure and kill survivors, slugging is creating pressure and potentially killing a survivor. This whole "X is not fun" bullshit kinda needs to stop, it's not just you saying it here it's a very common thing for anyone playing this game to say "it's not fun therefore it shouldn't be in the game." It's such a lame argument for anything honestly, because what the statement translates to is "I'm not having fun if I'm losing". That's ultimately what that statement means, and it's true for pretty much any single thing in any single game. Losing isn't fun, period, so please don't use this as an argument.
Killers (and survivors) make such big stinks about everything in this game it blows my mind honestly. The only ACTUAL balance problems the game currently has are keys, mori's, matchmaking, and map design. THAT IS IT. Not a single perk is overpowered or unbalanced (though many are underpowered for sure). Not a single killer is overpowered. Hell, even SWF isn't overpowered because a good killer that plays scummy can still win (barring keys and bad maps, which I already stated ARE problems). I know I play in a 4 man SWF regularly. Yes we destroy almost every killer we play, but then even once in a while we get a killer that knows how to play and doesn't get screwed by the map and they get a 4k. A lot of times it's because we made mistakes, but those mistakes were set up by the killer, who then fully capitalized on them. That's called being outplayed.
Sorry I just don't see a problem with DS because I can admit when I messed up. A lot of players, killers in particular, have a seriously hard time admitting this. I will openly say when I mess up or when I get outplayed. I don't sit there and complain about the game being unfair to me because I actually have that self awareness, and I wish more players had it, because then this community would be a lot less of a ######### hole.
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I'd say that-
1. The Killer should be very clearly informed if the survivor has DS. Survivors often abuse matching cosmetics for this exact reason, so the killer wastes time chasing what they thought was a different survivor, only to be hit with a DS at the end. Let the Killer know who to avoid.
2. Interacting with anything should shorten or cancel the remaining duration. You can't tell the killer they should leave a survivor alone if that survivor is repairing gens, breaking totems, healing teammates, etc. If you're in a safe enough position that you can go back to working on objectives, you don't need the safety net of DS anymore.
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After playing survivor without it (yellow ranks... I don't play survivor much)... I've come to understand why players use it
It does try to get the killer away from you after being unhooked... but it doesn't stop the the killer from downing you after
DS is a debatablely broken perk... killer players hate the 60 second timer on it, survivors hate that it can only be used once... with two opportunities
Killers will hardcore tunnel if that is the playstyle they picked... survivors will run at the killer if that is the playstyle they picked
Yes I belive that DS is fine in its current state (but would like to see it tinkered with a bit)
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You weren't tunneled though. They chased and downed 2 other survivors before they even saw you again. There's only 4 people in the match, do you really think the killer should have to chase every survivor besides you before they're not TuNeLiNg? Ridiculous.
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They didn't down two survivors in this scenario, they downed one while you were on the hook, and then after hooking came straight for you off the hook. Which is definitely tunneling.
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DS is not fine and there's plenty of easy solutions to the problems it causes as this discussion shows. Hopefully it gets changed in some way. Abusing DS is very easy to do and opens up a lot of things my team of survivors should not be able to do, pretty much ignoring the killer whenever we choose either for a save or otherwise.
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Ah my mistake, but thats still not tunneling. They chased the Nea, not tunneling. Tunneling is focusing 1 survivor exclusively until they are dead, ignoring anyone else you might see. The Nea would not have even been hooked, the killer would have turned straight away to come for you.
In this scenario maybe you were the only one they saw and maybe the Nea should be better at chases and led the killer away from the hook. If the survivors mess up they should take the hit, unfortunately that means you're back on the hook right away.
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Hold on. So youre telling me, that leaving you on the hook to chase someone else, then downing someone else, hooking them, and coming back is tunneling? Hmmmmmm......
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Yes, DS is perfectly fine in its state and it should not, and will not be changed.
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Again, I have definitely experienced recently (on a character I was not running DS on) the situation where the killer hooked me, downed someone right in the same vicinity while someone came to off-hook me. I got off-hooked as the other person was getting put on the hook closest to mine (almost simultaneous, but I was off first) and by the time my feet hit the ground the killer was already turning and running at me. I got immediately downed 5 steps from the hook. In this case, if DS deactivated when that person was hooked, my perk would have proc'd for less than a second or two. I do see why it has a timer, and as a solo survivor, it's important that it stays that way.
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Exactly, and you should not be punished because the killer wants to play like an ass.
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No, it is an anti-momentum perk that happens to double as a anti-tunnel perk. If the killer actually plays nice and doesn't tunnel then DS won't get used, but if it goes into endgame and they are forced to, they literally can't do anything to stop you from escaping. The perk is entirely unfair and needs a major change. There are varies ideas out there so I won't list any but the current state of the perk is NOT fine.
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I think it's fine most of the time.
In my last game as pig I had 2 people with ds. I got hit by it 0 times and had a 4k. It's very rare I get hit by DS in general.
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you kinda forget all the god loop the map give you and imagine a 1 minute immunity after each hook will make every survivor a ######### god i cant see any survivor dying unless the get face camp and if you dont like to be slug you will see a rise in slug build and i rise in your survivor queue specially with the new game that are coming out
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