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Decisive Strike
Decisive Strike is set to get nerfed, at some point in the future. ...Finally! It's a bullshit perk that never should have existed to begin with, in its current (and past) form.
However, the change proposed by the devs would not balance the perk - it would simply destroy it, adding it to the pile of basically-useless perks there are unfortunately already more than enough of in the game. Stunning the killer in place for 3 seconds does next to nothing. That's not even 20% of the total time it takes to wiggle out of the killer's grasp. In that state, and as a one-time-use perk, the number of times DS would actually help prevent getting hooked, out of a hundred games, could most likely be counted on one hand. Two if we're being optimistic. It would only ever be somewhat relevant in a Survive With Friends setting.
My idea is this: The player using Decisive Strike gets a DS-sized, two-zone skill check every time they are being picked up by the killer. Hitting a good skill check stuns the killer in place for 4 seconds. Hitting a great skill check stuns the killer in place for 8 seconds (50% of the wiggle time). Non-obsession numbers would be 3 and 6 seconds, respectively.
In that state, obsession-DS would still potentially, albeit far less frequently than currently, be able to prevent getting hooked on its own, by cutting the distance the killer can carry the survivor in half. That is, given the player hits the great skill check. Hitting a DS skill check is pretty manageable for experienced players. Hitting a great skill check on DS? Trust me, it will not be rare for even the most experienced survivors to simply not hit it.
Non-obsession-DS would only very rarely be able to prevent the killer from being able to hook the survivor, on its own. Again, far less frequently than currently. Even with hitting the great skill check. But the fact that it could be used more than once would allow for non-SWF survivors to actually be able to react to it, making their way over to downed survivors they know are using the perk, with the knowledge that they will have a window to potentially flashlight or pallet save, or an opportunity to bodyblock or sabotage nearby hooks.
The killer would still be able to check for available hooks in the vicinity before picking the player up, and would still be able to dribble the player, as well; Enduring would still more-or-less hard-counter DS; Unnerving Presence would still be useful against it; Agitation and Iron Grasp would counteract it, to an extent; Lightborn (and simply looking at walls during pick-up) would still make flashlight saves nigh-impossible (it actually does make them impossible as of now, with the new pick-up speeds); non-SWF survivors would still not know whether their fellow survivors are using the perk, and would have to be around for a pick-up to actually acquire that knowledge. Which, both that and being around for any further pick-ups is very time-consuming, and survivors would likely be better off just staying on generators and letting the survivor get hooked, most of the time - meaning that if they don't, it can not seldomly actually work in the killer's favour, with survivors wasting precious time (and health states) scrambling for saves they will only rarely actually get, or bodyblocks that will only rarely actually be enough to allow for the survivor to wiggle.
Now, I can imagine that DS could still be obnoxious in this state. Not because it would actually, frequently prevent getting people to hooks like it does now - it wouldn't -, but simply because being stunned in place every time you pick a survivor up could get annoying, even if it's only for a short amount of time. (And, fair enough, being stunned in place for 8 seconds would probably feel quite ridiculous.) The thing is, for the perk to have any metagame relevance outside of coordinated SWF teams in the proposed form at all, I think it needs have these numbers, and needs to be more than a one-time-use. So barring a complete rework, it's either this or another perk landing on the sizeable pile of those perks nobody that is playing to win would actually want to use.
What do you think? Should DS simply be nerfed into irrelevancy, or is my suggestion workable?
Comments
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8 second stun time? Jebus man. They are doing the Nerf this way so that team work is needed to free the survivor. The whole get yourself off was the conceptual problem to begin with, you're just making a more vexing version.
The short stun isn't designed to give you more time to wiggle, but to use strategically at pallets or to allow a flashlight save. It can be used for a last second wiggle free if people body block long enough. All of this can be done outside of SWF.0 -
8 seconds? are you insane?
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@azazer said:
All of this can be done outside of SWF.Can be, but regularly won't be. Survivors that don't know that someone is running the perk will regularly not run in for pallet or flashlight saves they know they couldn't possibly get without them running the perk. Because in most cases, they would only be wasting their time. And even if they would regularly run in, you need to be under a pallet or for your teammates to have a flashlight to begin with (plus new pallets make pallet saves iffy, and "new" blinding angles make flashlight saves a rarity, if the killer knows what they're doing). Outside of an SWF setting, a one-time 3-second stun is basically-useless, in that it will hardly crack the two-digit percentage mark in times it actually does anything for you.
My proposed DS would still only very rarely allow the survivor to wiggle, just by itself. Only the obsession, if they hit a great skill check, and even then it's still 8 seconds to carry, which translates to ~30m the killer still has, to get the survivor to a hook.
I understand it could be seen as too strong, that people just want to see it go, but I want more perks with meta relevance, and in order for the perk to still find a spot in common loadouts, it needs to be more than it would be in the form the devs have proposed.
@Master said:
8 seconds? are you insane?My argument is that 8 seconds are "only" half of the wiggle time - 30m is still plenty to carry someone to a hook. That hitting a great skill check on a DS is not easy (how often do people hit DS under Unnerving Presence? It happens, sure, but it is not the norm, and that is still roughly twice the size of the great skill check). That there exist counter-mechanics (slugging, dribbling, looking at a wall, blocking new pallet prompt) and counter-perks (Enduring, Unnerving Presence, Agitation/Iron Grasp, Lightborn).
I know 8 seconds would feel rather ridiculous and have pointed out as much. But that alone is not an argument that convinces me. Especially because it only goes for the obsession, and only if they hit a great skill check. Which I really do believe would be rare for survivors to hit. As in, even the most experienced survivors would not hit it more than half the time, at most, while your average survivor would maybe hit it 30% of the time, at most. Of course always risking missing the skill check entirely, by going for the great skill check, and not getting any stun time because of it. Maybe a workable version would indeed be obsession-DS 6/3 seconds, and non-obsession-DS 4/2 seconds, respectively - as long as it is not a one-time-use. I just presented the numbers I think would actually make the perk strong enough for good players to use it, i.e. for it to be relevant in the metagame.
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Hillbilly420 said:
TLDR?
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@Hillbilly420 said:
TLDR?tl;dr: The Decisive Strike nerf as proposed by the developers would make it all but irrelevant in the metagame. My idea for a perhaps workable, but definitely viable nerfed version of the perk is this: The player using Decisive Strike gets a DS-sized, two-zone skill check every time they are being picked up by the killer. Hitting a good skill check stuns the killer in place for 4 seconds. Hitting a great skill check stuns the killer in place for 8 seconds (50% of the wiggle time). Non-obsession numbers would be 3 and 6 seconds, respectively.
That's a terrible idea.
8 seconds only for the obsession, and only if they hit a great skill check. It currently already stuns for 4 seconds, on top of literally giving you a health state and free escape. Even for non-obsession survivors. And you would need to hit a great DS skill check, which is rather difficult (for one reason or another, hitting even a regular DS skill check is more difficult than hitting great skill checks on generators, and this holds true for many players, as I've regularly seen on streams).
I presented this as a workable suggestion; while I do think these numbers are necessary to have the perk be as relevant in the meta as I'd like it to be, the numbers are up for debate. The crucial thing for solo play (what the game was intended for) is really that the perk is not a one-time-use. Maybe this could however be tied to some condition. Maybe you would need to do something to collect counters for DS.
Another thing of note, that I just now really realized: pallet saves will be practically impossible with DS, anyway, since the skill check takes a while to pop up - the killer will almost never be standing inside a pallet while in DS stun. Not if they don't want to. This is also relevant for flashlight saves, as the killer can not only pick a survivor up looking at a wall, but walk towards a wall after picking up, too, in order to be stunned in a position they can't get blinded in. Considering this, I would argue it's even more important for the perk to have larger numbers, and be multiple-use, in order for it to have a perk-slot-worthy impact at all.
hope you can look around [...] to avoid a flashlight
So you want to nerf the nerfed version of DS that would already nerf it into obscurity? Then it would only, exclusively, give 3-4 seconds wiggle time, which, again, is basically useless. At that point it's about as worthy of a perk slot as Boil Over (read: not at all worth a perk slot).
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The DS change proposed by Devs is enough. Its honestly still strong, allowing you to give you more time to wiggle out. It may not happen every single time, but being a few seconds short from escaping the killer's grasp because a hook was far away enough is rather common, especially if other Survivors start bodyblocking for you.
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@PigNRun said:
being a few seconds short from escaping the killer's grasp because a hook was far away enough is rather commonI suppose it depends on your understanding of what constitutes "rather common", but it's really not common enough to justify spending a perk slot on such a perk (if you want to build to win). Sacrificing an entire perk slot of the merely four you get, for a perk that maybe, potentially allows you to wiggle the one time out of ten games that the killer actually has no hook available in a 58.88 - 14.72 = 44.16m range (assuming a 4-second stun), is asinine. There are other perks that will have an impact practically every single game.
And then, even that one time out of ten games, the killer can simply just drop and slug you if they realize they can't get you to a hook. So the perk has still not allowed you to wiggle out of the killer's grasp, just gotten you slugged.
It would be strong enough for your tastes, maybe, but certainly not strong enough to be relevant in the metagame. At the very least, it needs to be a multiple-time-use perk, especially considering that the time for the skill check to pop up plus the time for the skill check to be completed allows the killer to move, after the pick-up, which makes DS stun pallet saves practically impossible and DS stun flashlight saves nigh-impossible, against any halfway competent killer.
The only reason that the devs could actually go through with the one-time-use, 3-4-second stun nerf for is that they are very apparently willing (determined, even?) to have a plethora of objectively subpar perks in the game, for some reason.
I apologize for my tone; I guess it's my general disappointment with the amount of mediocre perks in the game speaking. In my mind, ideally every single perk would be metagame-worthy in some form, or at the very least viable at what it is the perk is intended to do.
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Well, that is how its supposed to be! If DS isnt justified to be "meta", then good. The meta is supposed to change from time to time. We have had this powerful perk for almost 2 years. If people drop it for something else, then, thats excellent. Force people to move out of their comfort zone and try alternate playstyles or perk builds. That alone justifies any nerf made to DS.
And even if it wont be useful every single match, then, does it matter? Adrenaline is a very good perk, and yet its even more situational than the nerfed DS. Lithe is the second best Exhaustion perk (and a very popular choice), but it wont be a life saver on every map. Even NOED, the most criticised Killer perk by Survivors, wont even activate every single match.
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@PigNRun said:
The meta is supposed to change from time to time.I agree! I would be more than fine with a scenario in which BHVR nerfed and buffed a variety of perks every other month, creating ever-new and exciting environments for metagames to develop in. That's a great way to keep the game changing and lively without the need for a constant flow of content. The reality of the game however is that the perk metagame has been very stale, and still is, because BHVR just does not do that. If DS is nerfed into not being metagame-viable anymore, people will just replace it with another perk out of the handful "age-old" staples. There unfortunately won't be alternate, out-of-the-comfort-zone playstyles entering the meta because of it, as the perks in the game just do not justify those to be viable - at least, not on a consistent enough basis to become prevalent, i.e., metagame-relevant.
As I've said, ideally I would want for every single perk - on both sides, naturally - to be relevant to the metagame in some way. That is why I do not want to see yet another perk land on the sizeable pile of those that are simply not relevant to the metagame in some way, with the proposed DS nerf.
And even if it wont be useful every single match, then, does it matter?
Not useful every single match is another notion than useful one time in ten matches. My "belief" is that DS in the dev-proposed form would simply be without-impact to an extent, statistically, that nobody in their "right mind" would use it over other, statistically (and otherwise) decidedly more impactful perks. The perks you've mentioned are, in my opinion, not only situational in different, less detrimental ways than the dev-proposed DS would be situational in, but the impact they have on the game is also qualitatively on another level… and pretty significantly so.
But this is not a discussion about other perks. I do actually somewhat agree that simply removing DS from the metagame could be a good thing in that it at least changes the predominant builds up in some way, because DS is so ridiculously impactful in its current form that it can be found in essentially any playing-to-win loadout. I also admit that my DS suggestion might be leaning too much to the idea of making it viable in solo play - too much in the sense that it could be positively atrocious to face in an SWF setting. Due to that, the 6/3s; 4/2s numbers might actually be more reasonable.
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This is hilarious. Survivor refuses to get good, so they want to buff a perk that's already a huge crutch. Stop crying and get good.
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Being able to stun the killer for 6 seconds every time he picks you up seems even more overpowered than the current version. You’ll just have survivors running to corners of the map where there are no hooks and abusing it to never get caught.
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@BasementLeatherBoi said:
Being able to stun the killer for 6 seconds every time he picks you up seems even more overpowered than the current version. You’ll just have survivors running to corners of the map where there are no hooks and abusing it to never get caught.Still leaves 10 seconds carrying time, or 36.8m. Find me a corner on any map - let alone every map - that is that far from the next hook. (Also find me survivors that hit great skill checks on DS all the time. The majority of survivors can't even halfway-consistently hit greats on gens. Most players are mediocre at best at the game. It just is that way.) At best you're a free down and slug, with teammates having to venture out to a corner map deadzone for the save. Running to a corner would not be a reliable tactic by any stretch.
I know I have picked the wrong perk to talk balance on, mostly since people's emotions are regularly getting in the way of actual discussion when they even only hear the perk's name, but if people here really can't see that the dev-proposed DS is blatantly weak and would just nerf into obscurity yet another perk that could potentially be turned into something balanced-yet-useful, I guess I have picked the wrong place to talk balance, as well.
We'll see whether popular opinion sways once the DS change does go through and the perk disappears off the face of most of any reasonably-educated loadout, as a result.
Better luck with the next perk I'll try to get people (well, the devs, mostly) to realize is deserving of a buff. There's unfortunately no shortage of them...
As I've admitted multiple times before, I do think this version of DS could still be plenty obnoxious, despite not being nearly as impactful as current-version DS. Especially against SWF teams. So I'm not passionate about it. Not passionate enough to keep repeating myself beyond this point, certainly. I'm not passionate about DS itself to begin with; this was more-so about having more meta-fit perks in the game at all, and DS just so happens to be one that is not going to be, anymore, should it become the one-time-use, skill check, 3-4-second stun ability the devs have stated it is intended to become.
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@PigNRun said:
The DS change proposed by Devs is enough. Its honestly still strong, allowing you to give you more time to wiggle out. It may not happen every single time, but being a few seconds short from escaping the killer's grasp because a hook was far away enough is rather common, especially if other Survivors start bodyblocking for you.The point of the new DS is to enable a window where flashlight saves are possible
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@zarr said:
@BasementLeatherBoi said:
Being able to stun the killer for 6 seconds every time he picks you up seems even more overpowered than the current version. You’ll just have survivors running to corners of the map where there are no hooks and abusing it to never get caught.Still leaves 10 seconds carrying time, or 36.8m. Find me a corner on any map - let alone every map - that is that far from the next hook. (Also find me survivors that hit great skill checks on DS all the time. The majority of survivors can't even halfway-consistently hit greats on gens. Most players are mediocre at best at the game. It just is that way.) At best you're a free down and slug, with teammates having to venture out to a corner map deadzone for the save. Running to a corner would not be a reliable tactic by any stretch.
I know I have picked the wrong perk to talk balance on, mostly since people's emotions are regularly getting in the way of actual discussion when they even only hear the perk's name, but if people here really can't see that the dev-proposed DS is blatantly weak and would just nerf into obscurity yet another perk that could potentially be turned into something balanced-yet-useful, I guess I have picked the wrong place to talk balance, as well.
We'll see whether popular opinion sways once the DS change does go through and the perk disappears off the face of most of any reasonably-educated loadout, as a result.
Better luck with the next perk I'll try to get people (well, the devs, mostly) to realize is deserving of a buff. There's unfortunately no shortage of them...
As I've admitted multiple times before, I do think this version of DS could still be plenty obnoxious, despite not being nearly as impactful as current-version DS. Especially against SWF teams. So I'm not passionate about it. Not passionate enough to keep repeating myself beyond this point, certainly. I'm not passionate about DS itself to begin with; this was more-so about having more meta-fit perks in the game at all, and DS just so happens to be one that is not going to be, anymore, should it become the one-time-use, skill check, 3-4-second stun ability the devs have stated it is intended to become.
You seem to ignore that there are flashlights in the game and that survivors can bodyblock a killer.
There are a lot of survivors who can hit great skillechecks, look at how fast they can power through ruin.
If a player is not good enough to hit the skillcheck, then maybe he shoudl use a nother perk. You cant balance the game around mediocre players, because what happens when you face a good survivor? You DC?0 -
@Master said:
@PigNRun said:
The DS change proposed by Devs is enough. Its honestly still strong, allowing you to give you more time to wiggle out. It may not happen every single time, but being a few seconds short from escaping the killer's grasp because a hook was far away enough is rather common, especially if other Survivors start bodyblocking for you.The point of the new DS is to enable a window where flashlight saves are possible
Pretty sure zarr will come here and call it too situational as well.
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@PigNRun said:
@Master said:
@PigNRun said:
The DS change proposed by Devs is enough. Its honestly still strong, allowing you to give you more time to wiggle out. It may not happen every single time, but being a few seconds short from escaping the killer's grasp because a hook was far away enough is rather common, especially if other Survivors start bodyblocking for you.The point of the new DS is to enable a window where flashlight saves are possible
Pretty sure zarr will come here and call it too situational as well.
I just wish every player would play survivor and killer before suggesting such stuff
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@PigNRun said:
@Master said:
@PigNRun said:
The DS change proposed by Devs is enough. Its honestly still strong, allowing you to give you more time to wiggle out. It may not happen every single time, but being a few seconds short from escaping the killer's grasp because a hook was far away enough is rather common, especially if other Survivors start bodyblocking for you.The point of the new DS is to enable a window where flashlight saves are possible
Pretty sure zarr will come here and call it too situational as well.
I don't have to, as I already did say that. I said to want to stop repeating myself, but here goes:
No, as a one-time-use perk, it will not allow you to be flashlight-saved with any perk-slot-worthy regularity by any stretch. First, your teammates need to have a flashlight. So any lobby that does not have one already nullifies this aspect of the perk. That is, frankly, awfully situational. Second, your teammates do not know that you have the perk. So you need to rely on them running in for saves they would not even get without you having the perk, just gambling on you having it. And then you need to be downed so far away from any object the killer could look at to prevent getting blinded that they can't get there with the distance they can cover while you wait for and then complete the DS skill check.
It would only ever be somewhat relevant in an SWF setting, and even then not nearly relevant enough to see frequent use. Not as a one-time-use perk.
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@zarr said:
@PigNRun said:
@Master said:
@PigNRun said:
The DS change proposed by Devs is enough. Its honestly still strong, allowing you to give you more time to wiggle out. It may not happen every single time, but being a few seconds short from escaping the killer's grasp because a hook was far away enough is rather common, especially if other Survivors start bodyblocking for you.The point of the new DS is to enable a window where flashlight saves are possible
Pretty sure zarr will come here and call it too situational as well.
I don't have to, as I already did say that. I said to want to stop repeating myself, but here goes:
No, as a one-time-use perk, it will not allow you to be flashlight-saved with any perk-slot-worthy regularity by any stretch. First, your teammates need to have a flashlight. So any lobby that does not have one already nullifies this aspect of the perk. That is, frankly, awfully situational. Second, your teammates do not know that you have the perk. So you need to rely on them running in for saves they would not even get without you having the perk, just gambling on you having it. And then you need to be downed so far away from any object the killer could look at to prevent getting blinded that they can't get there with the distance they can cover while you wait for and then complete the DS skill check.
It would only ever be somewhat relevant in an SWF setting, and even then not nearly relevant enough to see frequent use. Not as a one-time-use perk.
You realize that SWF is very common, and even with solo players you can coordinate in the chat before the game starts
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@Master said:
@zarr said:
@PigNRun said:
@Master said:
@PigNRun said:
The DS change proposed by Devs is enough. Its honestly still strong, allowing you to give you more time to wiggle out. It may not happen every single time, but being a few seconds short from escaping the killer's grasp because a hook was far away enough is rather common, especially if other Survivors start bodyblocking for you.The point of the new DS is to enable a window where flashlight saves are possible
Pretty sure zarr will come here and call it too situational as well.
I don't have to, as I already did say that. I said to want to stop repeating myself, but here goes:
No, as a one-time-use perk, it will not allow you to be flashlight-saved with any perk-slot-worthy regularity by any stretch. First, your teammates need to have a flashlight. So any lobby that does not have one already nullifies this aspect of the perk. That is, frankly, awfully situational. Second, your teammates do not know that you have the perk. So you need to rely on them running in for saves they would not even get without you having the perk, just gambling on you having it. And then you need to be downed so far away from any object the killer could look at to prevent getting blinded that they can't get there with the distance they can cover while you wait for and then complete the DS skill check.
It would only ever be somewhat relevant in an SWF setting, and even then not nearly relevant enough to see frequent use. Not as a one-time-use perk.
You realize that SWF is very common
I don't want the perk to only be SWF-relevant but meta-relevant, and, as I've said, it would still not be a popular perk of choice even in an SWF setting, as that. Not to mention that the game is designed from the ground up as a single-player game, and instead of adjusting perks etc. for the existence of SWF, it would be better to adjust SWF accordingly to all of that.
But that's another topic. Dev-proposed DS would be too weak to see meta-like frequent use even in SWF settings.and even with solo players you can coordinate in the chat before the game starts
Yes, that totally happens. People already say "I have DS, if I'm not the obsession, please block for me." all the time!
...Right back at ya: "I just wish every player would play survivor and killer before suggesting such stuff"
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