Make keys only work during EGC
Hello people of the fog,
Yes, this is another thread about changing keys, I bet we all have seen multiple threads about this now. But I came up with an idea I didn't see in the other threads, so I thought to share it with you and see what you think about that.
But first, what is my (and possibly many others) issue with keys? It is highly unfair towards the killer when two or even three survivors escape through the hatch by using one single key. Especially when three survs escape with one gen left, I can't think of a more "unjust", lame and unrewarded "victory" for one party. Yes moris are bad too, but keys will totally swing the outcome. The one second the killer has all the pressure, the next he just looses, with nothing he can do (not even mori, the key will remain in the trial). There should never be such an easy oppotunity to totally rob the killer of everthing he built up during the round. There is nothing similar with reversed roles. Even if you all die to Noed after the killer didn't even managed to down one before all gens weredone, you had a chance to work against the noed. He does not win instantly with it.
Imo, It is perfectly fine if just one survivor escapes with the use of a key, even after the killer closed it. It's also fair if all 4 escape though the hatch, since this can only happen after all 5 gens were finished, and then the survs earned it (also bc of the achievement).
So my proposal for allowing one or four survivors the escape with a key, but not two or three. Its actually quite easy:
A key can only be used during EGC!
EGC will trigger either when the killer closes the hatch (which means only one surv is left in the trail) or when on exit gate was opened (killer or survivor). If the killer closes the hatch, the last remaining surv can still reopen it with a key and escape. Fair game. If a gate was opened, the remaining survs can gather around the hatch and escape together (best with 4, of course). It wouldn't change much about the achievements difficulty, opening an exit gates with all four survs still living is no issue at all. You can even search for the hatch before opening the gate, since it will already have spawned, so you won't have to mind the EGC timer.
I think this would really be a nice and easy "fix" for the really unfair instances of key plays. What do you think?
TLDR: Escaping through hatch by using a key should only work during EGC to avoid unfair, unrewarded hatch escapes of multiple survivors when the killer is at it's strongest.
Comments
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"I can't think of a more "unjust", lame and unrewarded "victory" for one party. Yes moris are bad too, but keys will totally swing the outcome."
So will moris...and survivors have to do most of the work...killers have to do 30% of their work. Like, no. Just leave both of these items alone.
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In addition to having it only work during ECG, you could always make Key's into offerings like Mori's. Each player would need to run the key offering in order to use the closed hatch during ECG (because it would close after each person). You can move some of the key add-on's to the map.
Of course Mori's should be adjusted so that we can all enjoy longer matches.
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No, I don't like that change much. Ive been robbed of too many people who just follow the killer then open the hatch after they close it. Even then it is unfair to the killer.
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I disagree. Having to see three survs escape through the hatch when you ahve them totally cornered is so much worse than seeing your team getting tunneled moried one by one. The former does totally and instantly switch the result, from dreading defeat for the survs to glaring victory. It does not even punish the survs, it actually rewards them BP wise. The mori will gradually shift the power to the killer with each killed, but it can never rob you of an earned win on its own.
And I completey disagree with you claiming both are fine. They are totally not. Both Red Moris and Multiple Hatch escape due to keys are totally busted and unhealthy for the game. Thats why I made this proposal, to keep keys intact for single survivors and the achievement, but deny the really unfun situations for the killer with it. I would do a similar thread for moris, but since I have no genuine idea for it it would just be a repeat of already proposed solutions, which we don't need really.
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I think Offerings for getting the achievement is overkill. it is already difficult enough to get all four survs to the point where they can hop into the hatch.
Yes moris, esp red ones, are busted as well and should be adjusted. I just don't have anything new to add there.
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If you are reffering to multiple survs with a key each escaping each on their own, that would only work if EGC tirggered bc a gate was open. And then it doesn't change much. With my proposal it is not possible for multiple to escape when not all gens are done. Bc the hatch can only be opened with the key when it was closed by the killer before.
If you are just referring to the fact that the single last surv opens the hacth again you closed and escapes, whats the problem? You won't get your 4k alright, but you still totally destroyed the team with just a single person taking the "loosers track" to escape. And you even have the chance to prevent this by slugging.
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Last man with a key. 1-2 gens done, you find hatch, close it, realize the doors are close to each other, go towards them, then the person escapes with a key because they followed you so they could find the hatch.
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Yes, than can happen, even with my proposal. But I don't see why thats a big issue. Its just one person. Its far less frustrating compared to when 3 escaping while you have them cornered. You won't get your 4k, so what? You still killed three and won the round. The key won't make you loose, compared to the other scenario.
The only way to fix this as well would be to totally remove keys. And then Moris should go as well. But that'll likely never happen, and rightly so imo. Keys and Moris are not bad on their own, it's the lack of limitation that sucks. So just limit them more and it's more fun to go against it. or at least it does not suck so much.
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No one else with an opinion?
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I believe the hatch should only spawn if one survivor is left on the map regardless of generators.
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I can see why killers feel robbed of everythin they built up, but killers are just equally as bad robbin a survivor of gameplay and BPS obviously too, and tbf ma soul leaves ma body when there's a 3 hatch escape... Hatch IMO should only spawn when ALL gens are done, key perhaps activatin if u've done a certain amount of work in the game by completion of 3 gens, and if u don't get a chance to get on a gen then tough sh*t
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Hatch only spawning for the last means neither killer nor survivor can know the location beforehand. So keys effectively can not be used beforehand and only after the killer closed the hatch -> EGC running. That bit is strikingly similar to my idea. But it would introduce quite some RNG, when no one can know of the location beforehand, it's a gamble who finds it first.
I'm not sure if I like that or not. Surviror wouldn''t be able to camp the hatch and let others die anymore, and DC for hatch would not work. That sounds good. But on the killer side, such a change likely would increase slugging for 4k, since a killer won't be willing to gamble for the last kill when he can prevent it. Survivor won't waste time for finding the hatch in dire situations, maybe a good thing. But on the other hand it could feel just too oppressing. Maybe Left Behind could be buffed to show the location of the hatch before it spawns in this case.
I wanted to discard your idea at the first glance but I gotta admit, it has more interesting implications than I thought. Could be worth elobarating it further :).
Edit: One thing I forgot: Your idea removes the possibility for getting the achievement completely. So it either would have to be removed or somethign like the hacth always spawning when all gens are powered (like what Brodie suggested).
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I can't really think of a situation were the killer can rob "everything" from the survivors nearly instantly similar to a 3 man hatch escape. Yes there are situations were matches totally swing to the killers favour in mere seconds. But thats still not as instant and it requires some very serious errors from the survivors and / or really advanced play of the killer. There's far more to it than brainlessly using a key.
Using a red mori is not comparable with a multiple man hatch escape imo. Mori matches are screwed from the start, you know what might be coming when you see a hidden offering. So you can brace yourself for a bad match. And BP will be lower for everyone, including the killer, so it kinda hurts the killer too to use a mori. Keys can be much more devastating for your mood as a killer. Esp. since surv can find them during the trial, so even when you dodge every lobby with a key, you still have to face a key usage from time to time. And survs do't get punished, but rewarded BP wise for using a key bc. of hatch escape.
Hatch only spawning after all gens are powered would be to oppressive. I think it's fine to give the last (but only the last!) a realistic way of escaping. Furthermore EGC was introduced to prevent taking the game hostage. Making the hatch only spawn after all gens are powered would reintroduce this, since the killer can no longer trigger EGC. Or he would need another means for it, like opening an exit gate even before all gates are powered. But that would have to be limited to only one remaining surv, otherwise killers could abuse it. Key only activating after certain work on top of having hatch only spawn after genns are done is complete overkill.
I think the combination of your and ZFennecFox idea would be alright, having the hatch spawn either on the last surv or when gens are finished. That would actually be quite similar to my solutions, with the difference that the hatch would be visible with my solution (but not usable).
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Statistically speaking keys are a non-issue. Key escapes make a very, very small percentage of survivor escapes. The one key nerf that I do think should happen is for the unlock action to take around 3 seconds. It is wrong for survivors to be able to open a hatch directly in front of the killer.
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Mori and keys need nerf.... Maybe a time for 5 sec to open hatch em mori 2 hooks to finish survivor.
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If you're gonna nerf keys, then you'd better nerf ultra rare addons and moris.
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The premise of the hatch is an emergency escape route with makes utmost no sense if it spawns after the last gen. By changing the hatch spawn mechanic to spawn when 1 survivor is left alive gives the Survivor a fighting chance against a Killer who downs the second survivor and goes to look for the hatch. It balances key's as Survivors can't just tea bag on top of it it becomes an Emergency Escape.
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Statistically speaking you may be right. But still keys are despised by many killers. Some bring moris just because of it. Why is that so? I think bc of the real unfair 2 or 3 man escapes. Having one guy escape is just a nuisance, all four escaping is an achievement for the survivors (literally). But two or even three escaping usually robs the game from the killer, without any skill involved from the survivors (doing gens until the hatch spawns takes no skill whatsoever, also you could just wait for others to die doing nothing). And there's not much a killer can do about it. With the item changes, a killer has no way to get rid of a key during the trail anymore (franklins no longer destroying items). Killing the key holder will actually make it worse, the key is still in the trail (except the key holder got the respective addon of course) and the hatch will spawn sooner. The only thing that "works" is killing survivors faster than they do gens. But how realistic is that with well coordinated teams, the ones who actually will use the key effectively, the ones who will pull off the 2/3 man hatch escape more easily due to coms? Thats the reason someone equips a red mori when seeing a key. Totally understandable. When we change / nerf things because they are unfun to one side (see Ruin, see killer reworks), I see keys on top of the list (followed by red mori, btw). It's the worst scenario for me as a killer. Multiple ppl escaping through the hatch when you have them cornered feels so exceptionally cheated of my game. Like i wrote, one or all four escaping is fine imo, I just want to get rid of 2 and 3 escaping (outside of EGC), bc thats soooo busted.
To get back at your suggestion, a channel animation for key escape would just be a bandaid imo. It helps when you actually chase them to the hatch, it would prevent them escaping then. Granted thats also an annoying "strat" with keys. But it wouldn't help when survs just totally abandon the last gen for searching the hatch (given thea are only three left).
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Yes moris need a change too, but thats not the scope of my post. A channeling action for opening the hatch won't fix my core issues with the key, namely 2/3 man escapes. See previous comment, I elaborated it there.
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I prefer the word "change" to "nerf". My suggestion does not change much for a single survivor or all survirvors escaping. It just removes the busted 2/3 man escapes with a single key. A thing that totally shouldn't exit in the first place. Hatch is meant as a last resort escape, not a way to ensure a victory over the killer in an unfavorable situation the survivors likely put themselves into (3 genning themselves).
Moris and certain addons should be reworked as well, but thats not the scope of my post, there are myriads of other post dealing with it. Sure there are also post about nerfing keys. But my idea seemed genuine enough to me to make a post about it.
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I kinda agree with your premise, but then the 4 man hatch escape achievement becomes undoable. So it had to be removed / changed, and I doubt devs would go this far. Thats why I think my solution is so neat, bc it keeps the achievement intact without changing much.
Sure, your approach removes hatch camping and slugging to find for hatch. But it may increase slugging for finding the last one, bc the killer doesn't want to gamble for the last kill. May still be worth it, though.
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In my experience of playing both roles, I've seen probably 10-15 times more mori's/broken ultra rares than I have seen multiple survivor escapes. I play killer when my friend that I play survivor with isn't online.
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Like 80% of ma games I'm robbed of everythin if i play solo because i can't loop all that great therefore I'm targeted first and tunneled, but that's on me that needs to learn to loop better.
Ik i 100% completely empathise for the killer with a 3 man hatch escape, but at the same time we still have to put the work in for the hatch to spawn, but personally i don't use keys, idc if the killer brings a mori tbh because it actually makes me play more careful and stealth, mori is there in the game to be used, and we just have to deal with it, perhaps if there would be more lack of pink ones, 60% of ma SWF games are pink mori, and no use of ke complainin because it is what it is. I've played killer maself, not often, but i really, really do feel bad for killer mains, and they should make it that no keys can be found in chests. I've been there with 3 man hatch escape so ik exactly how devastatin it is.
I'm not all that great with ideas, but still like to put some input, I've noticed people in forms wantin the hatch removed completely which i won't agree with, but aye only the survivor that has the key should be the only one able to use it alone... imo DBD is more favoured to survivors which ngl does suck for u killer mains, and should be more balanced, ruin should never have been nerfed, and imo they should have made ruin a perk like, and not a hex totem like phantaphobia so there was no gen rushin, gen rushin imo is borin.
Have a good day/night.
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Honestly, I think everyone agrees mori's need fixing, the problem is they can't be fixed as they are now. Moving them to 2 hooks needed makes them useless and usually slower than just hooking a survivor. They're either broken or worthless, so until they get a rework, nothing can really be done.
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They can change the achievement other games have done this and I believe they could as well.
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Absolutely, you will encounter much more red moris and annoying red addons than multiple-man hatch escapes. I myself likely had less then 10 such occasions. But, these rare instead really stick to me and make me really despise keys. Red moris are a pain as well, esp. when the killer tunnels for mori, an equally cheap move. But I find it way easier to brush that off, usually I'll have forgotten it already with the next round. On the other hand, multiple people escaping will nag on me for hours, because it's just so unfair and cheap imo.
Sure you could say now, it's so rare, devs should look into more urgent stuff. And I agree. But on the other hand, if it is so rare, it shouldn't be a big issue to just remove this bs occasions by changing keys accordingly. I think no one can really argue against this change other than there's more urgent stuff to be doing.
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"but at the same time we still have to put the work in for the hatch to spawn,"
If you are dedicated to take the hatch, you don't need to do anything ecept from hiding. If you want to escape with multiples throgh the hatch yeah, you have to put in some work. But the first gens are usually easy as well, it gets more difficult with the remaining. If you want to escape with one another, you can stop at 2 gens remaining. If three want to escape, then can look for the hatch when one gen is left. With organized teams it's really not that difficult to get to this.
And this situation, 3 survs and one gen remaing, is actually the glaring issue with keys. The killer will likely manage to kill the first completely when only one or two gens are left. If there is a key and the remaining survs work together (as swf), they will stop doing gens and search for the hatch for weaseling out. So when the killer finally manages to get in a real advantage, the key may just steal it again and end the game. How is that any fair? Yes wou finished 4 gens, but the killer had (usually) some work too to remove one surv from the gen. If the killer plays nicely, just as the survs want, no tunneling or camping, there is a higher chance for him being punished with this multi-man hatch escape, bc he will likely take a surv. out later than with tunneling.
"but aye only the survivor that has the key should be the only one able to use it alone."
Yep thats another solution that would work against multi-man escapes, make them more difficult. I could live with that too. This solution was proposed quite some times. But it has the drawback that it makes the 4 man hatch escape achievement much more difficult, since every surv would have to take a key with them or find one. My somewhat genuine idea does not really affect the achievement, the surv will just have to open a gate before they can jump through the hatch.
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There could be a way in between. Something like you have to get 6 hooks to enable your red mori. And 3 for enabling a green one. This way you would also know as a surv when the killer uses a green one, if he did not have 6 hooks by now and still moris someone, it was a green one. And yellow one could just be a base power.
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Yes they can, but only when it is no longer possible to get it at all (restriction from Sony / Microsoft). So as long as a key can open a hatch ,no matter the requirements for that, there will be always a possibilty to get this achievement, so Sony /MS won't change it. So even with key / hatch changes, it shouldn't be to hard to get the achievement imo. It's already stupid enough with the Adept achievements for killer, where you are punished twofold with better ranks (having to face better survirvors and needing more emblems to double-pip). Or Evil Incarnate, which can be totally denied by a survivor jumping into a locker. It's generally bad design when you have to rely heavily on other players to get your achievements. The 4-man-hatch escape one is already very difficult bc of that, since you rely on every other player there is in the ganme more or less.
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