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Once again, DS it not an anti-tunnel perk
Seriously, stop with this nonsense that I wouldn't get hit with it if I didn't tunnel. Someone got unhooked I chased their HEALTHY savior, downed them with two hits, headed back to Pop a gen and see the person on the way so I down them, silly me I should have realized that it's literally easy enough to down survivors so quick that you still eat a DS.
Leave the timer at a minute, heck make the timer two minutes if you want, make it FIVE minutes but it automatically deactivates once someone else is hooked and I would support that change from both sides.
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I would be in favor of disabling DS once the Exit Gates are open, making it last a minute and letting it be used on both hook states if it reset upon hooking another Survivor.
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No video, no proof.
Didn't happen.
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If survivor try locker DS ? I would tunnel them to death. Lol
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I had a killer do that to a teammate, was a normal guy about halfway through, chill killer and pretty Normal solo survivor game for me. Then all of a sudden he turned to face camping someone while we all left, end game chat started with “as soon as you did that locker DS you were getting camped.”
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I feel like it should still be active during egc so you but only once you have,been unhooked during it if not then it deactivates. Then i would be fine with the change.
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The thing is I can’t ever find anyone to give me a good reason that DS shouldn’t deactivate on someone else being hooked. Bing, literally means you weren’t tunneled.
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It's not an anti tunnel.
It's nothing to me. They're just delaying their death 5 seconds.
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Good thing it's not supposed to be anti-tunnel, it's anti-momentum.
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It actually was though, check old quotes from... the... devs and mods. The narrative changed once people figured out how many ways you could abuse DS.
I play killer/survivor and I can’t blame killers for hating DS
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It may have been their intention, but it's not. Nothing could really be anti-tunnel aside from just making you unable to die lmao.
I generally don't ever see DS as an issue when I play killer. Usually slugging does the trick or just not tunneling.
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It is a perk that can be used to avoid tunnelling right off the hook but it isn't built to just do that. It is a 1 minute timer. That's it. There are no restrictions on what can and can't be done with that 1 minute timer. 5 second stun for an entire perk slot is not OP in the slightest. Especially now the new map updates are going to make playing killer easy as ######### anyway. Chase survivor around one loop, chase them to the dead zone between loops, down them and then hook.
I very rarely get hit by DS and when I do I shrug it off. So what? It is done now. It can't come up in endgame and if it is endgame and they escape, so what? Just a game.
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I hate DS sometimes. It's so deflating to be literally punished at times for not even tunneling. Sometimes it just makes me so mad that when the team of survivors are heavily abusing the perk (locker spamming to make noise) I'll just eat the DS and full on tunnel them to death.
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Yes, it is. I agree that the argument of "if you don't tunnel, you'll never eat it" is objectively wrong, but it IS primarily an anti-tunnel perk. Just because some people use it outside it's intended purpose doesn't mean that it's not. As long as so many killers camp and tunnel, Decisive and Borrowed are necessary. There are genuinely situations where someone is being blatantly camped/tunneled to death, and the only way to give them a chance to survive, or even live a few seconds longer, is to use those perks. And what, you want to take that away? Give more power to the campers and tunnelers?
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the best time to unhook someone is when someone else is being carried to a hook, if someone is hooked as you're unhooked you lose your perk and the killer is also likely to see exactly where you are with BBQ, and as you're the easier target, and he knows your DS has been deactivated, he's very likely going to go after you.
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The only change I want to DS is that it deactivates in the exit gate area. Too many times I've had someone crawling out, picked them up right next to the exit, only to eat a DS and they escape. I hate tunneling, but it's not tunneling if no one else is left in the game.
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Agreed. Punishing survivors for making safe unhooks makes no sense to me.
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Is it supposed to be? I don't remember the devs saying it was...
However, I do agree DS is unhealthy in its current state despite its potential to discourage tunneling. I think an easy fix would be for DS to deactivate when the survivor gets on a gen or totem. Maybe even when the survivor gets healed to healthy if you think DS needs to be put down a couple dozen notches. The reason being, DS giving free objective progress just from playing normally is a little ridiculous.
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Doesn't that just empower NOED and fail to address the abuse of DS to put pressure on the killer?
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If anything my suggest change takes away power from actual tunnel and camping, I’m not kidding as killer the DS could be 3 minutes and I’d be fine as long as it deactivated on the next hook.
A camper would have to deal with it endgame, someone could literally drag themself out the door while the killer had to wait out DS
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Two gets unhooked in the basement. You being a tunneling camper downs both and rehooks them. Just because you hooked the saver first, the other two have a dead worthless perk. Don't be sneaky.
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Killers don't appreciate having their main strategy nerfed apparently. Whether that is tunneling or just simply hooking survivors is unique to each individual.
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the increase of people using DS is equal to the increase of seeing slugging and moris :P
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I think you proved a point here that doesn’t have anything to do with DS. The fact that killers can down people as fast as you’ve mentioned should be enough to realize there’s an issue with this game. They give killers way too potential to end games way too fast and when a survivor is trying to defend themselves the complaints start rolling in. You do realize it’s a perk meant to benefit that ONE survivor right? Why would it come with a downside of deactivating once someone else gets themselves hooked? That’s not his or her fault. Killers get hooks too ez they need to nerf these guys. Game after game it’s nothing but a DC penalty-locked in Mori and slug fest. That’s not fun.
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Your thread title is objectively wrong. DS IS an anti-tunneling perk, but it's not STRICTLY an anti-tunneling perk. It's one of the few answers that survivors have to hardcore tunneling/camping. More deactivation conditions could be considered, but simple deactivation upon hooking someone else would be easily exploitable and make the perk essentially useless.
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60 seconds is too long simple as. reduce the time or disable it once i hook someone else. BT is also an issue as its just free altruism, allows people to do unsafe saves and still be rewarded for it. BOTH DS and BT are too free and easy to use and should not be given as free, DS means you dont need to be worried about getting hooked for 60seconds and BT means free unhooks. both take little skill and compared to other perks too strong for such little effort.
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This is the result of survivors messing up, not the killer being good though. DS is a problem because it rewards low skill plays.
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Mmmm what game are you playing? Because playing killer its not ez in any way, it requires all your concentration, thinking on the go, and the use of mindgames and strategies. And not to mention that is you are going to play with weak killers things are going to get in very hard mode. A nerf is the last thing that killers need.
Let me ask you, why do you still DC after the penalty? Isn't it easier to learn how to play instead of disconnecting? Because don't tell me that playing survivor is hard because i play survivor too, and not in a swf, i play solo and i escape most of the times or do a decent amount of BP with a +1 or a +2 sometimes.
And back to the topic, the only thing that i would change about DS is that it should deactivate in endgame as there is no such thing as tunneling in the endgame and the purpose of DS working in endgame is just giving a free non sense escape.
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So you are saying that if I hook another survivor and go back to your sorry ass to hook you after that I'm still tunnelling you?
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To be honest a deactivation clause would'nt change anything at the current state, because if you are beeing tunneled or tried to hide after the unhook you don't interact with totems/lockers/gens. I definitely agree, that deactivating DS after someone else is hooked isn't a good idea and can easiely be played around by the killer in some scenarios.
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I never understood this “no skill” argument about perks. Which perks do take skill, exactly? There are almost none, pretty much every perk in this game is just an unlock for a neat boost. Aura reading, easier heals, slowdown, more movement speed, and so on. Even the perks that require timing or management of tokens or whatever really don’t require much skill at all.
Also, BT and DS are not “free” since they require a perk slot. Like every other perk, you use a slot to unlock some kind of bonus effect. That’s the opposite of free.
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No, I never said that and there's need to get worked up, my derriere is perfectly fine and happy. I said that a dry simple deactivation condition upon hooking someone else would be easily exploitable. For example, the rescue can be baited/forced for the 1-for-1, the rescuer downed on the spot for the trade, the rescued tunneled and slugged. At that point, it's sufficient to hook the rescuer first and DS would be effectively deactivated and worked around, despite a tunnel taking effect.
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I actually prefer current ds to old ds.
The disable it if someone else gets hooked can be easily exploited (hag with make your choice for exemple)
I WOULD like to see it getting disabled if they touch a gen.
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Anyone that have played killer well enough can relate to this. It's not that hard down multiple survivors under a minute. With Billy, nurse, huntress... as I am writing this I have realised that pretty much any decent killer can (maybe clown, hag, trapper and legion can't). It's not that uncommon to be undocumented, there are video compilations of survivor mains escaping with this kind of DS uses.
As huntress I have downed 3 people after a hook chasing one healthy survivor, downing another in the process and finding the unhooked at some point. If i remember who was unhooked i just wait 30 extra seconds to pick him up just to be sure. How long takes to down a healthy survivor when the killer do an outplay? 10 seconds, maybe 20 depending of the killer. When you pick and hook a survivor you waste about 15 seconds assuming you had bad luck with hooks. 20+15=35 You still have half a minute to kill an injured survivor.
The scenario usually happens due to bad positioning of the DS survivor. You are chasing a healthy one, down him and find the injured at some point so when you end a chase immediatly start another chase against him. With huntress I can end this in 5 seconds if the survivor can't avoid the hatchets or if he is in an open area.
All of this is assuming every one is healthy except the one unhooked. But reality is not like that, you usually chase one injured and then find the unhooked. I would not believe that anyone trying to kill every survivor they see had not run into this kind of situations.
I would delete DS and make it a core mechanic in which the entity gives some kind of advantage to any survivor that is unhooked (no window block until another survivor is hooked or all/some gens are completed for example).
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lmao. Imagne putting a perk like that to the game on purpose. It is meant for anti-tunnel, but at least you said it yourself. It overperforms now.
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It only performs if the killer allows it to.
Don't blame the survivors for the actions of the killer.
It's the killers choice to go for the unhooker survivor.
It's the killers choice to open that locker.
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Nonsense. How could the killer possibly play around that? There is nothing you can call tunneling after someone else is hooked. Rightfully, you should lose DS instantly because it lost it’s chance to serve it’s purpose.
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Oi! Miss me with your trolling please.
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Its what @PrettyFaceKate said.
If you are in a dead zone and an injured teammate without BT unhooks you with the killer right behind him, the killer will down your unhooker, down you and hook your unhooker. Your DS then deactivates and the killer hooks you. You had zero chance to do anything, it wasn't your fault and thats a scenario that DS 100% should prevent if you equip the perk, in my opinion.
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A deactivation mechanic would allow a killer to tunnel and not get punished in a situation where multiple people are downed at one time. Say you get downed a matter of seconds after a Laurie, the killer decides to hook you first, he then goes back for the Laurie, while he is doing this, a Meg comes and unhooks you, the killer then hooks Laurie. DS is now deactivated and the killer can tunnel you to his heart's desire.
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A) You are right, DS is not exclusively an anti-tunnel, so stop whining about it like it is. It works as it was intended to work. Avoiding tunneling is just one of multiple applications, just like other perks that also have multi uses in different situations.
B) Changing it to work based on hook would be nice for killers, but no. An insane nerf, since every match where a killer downs someone in your vicinity while your teammate across the map runs in to save you, resulting in you getting off hooked a millisecond before the next guy is hooked at a hook 5 steps away would mean your perk only proc'd for a second or two before you are back to getting downed. It's already an unused perk slot if the killer just doesn't ######### with you for 60 seconds, or slugs you. So hard pass on having it made useless and losing its intended functionality.
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Theyre strong perks yeah? we can all agree on that, if we cant then theres no point in a discussion. i play survivor most of the time tbh but i still want the game to be fair and balanced for everyone, the argument that these perks take no skill is the fact theyre such strong perks but take no build up to use them, for example you can use BT up to 6 times yourself (8 if everyone runs it) thats alot of free escapes or time wasted just for using BT which lets be honest takes no skill you just run up and unhook, theres no fear or anything same as DS you get 60 seconds free of not being hooked, if you get picked up in that time you escape and can lead on another huge chase or the killer leaves you and time has just been wasted. these perks are so very strong that just having an obsession in a match will force killers to ply so very differently and i feel they shouldnt be so free, while yes every perk takes no skill some have requirements needed to be met or downsides to them but both DS and BT do not and thats why they become so meta. the real issue is when so many people use these perks in one match, even worse when the unhooked survivor blocks with BT because even if he gets down he has DS and its all abit of a mess when you come across that level of play, on the most part games arent too bad but DS time needs to be shorter/deactivate after a hook so it counters tunneling (should also counter moris in my opinion) and BT shouldnt be free altruism (maybe any damage dealt to the unhooked player inflicts mending on the savior so you cant just run in careless). i dont wanna ruin the game for either side but i also want balance, i could understand the ruin nerf carrying killers but so can DS and BT, hell i see it too often on my team. most perks need a buff, but DS and BT need a rework/change.
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Why whould you punish the killer than for an other survivor’s stupid mistake? If they killing you that’s on them. The killer has nothing to do with that so it’s the same unfair for both of you. In that case, the unhooker know excatly what is going to happen, but done it anyway. That’s basically the same as sandbaging someone.
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It only makes its effect if the killern allows it, yes.
It forces some boring situations for both sides, yes.
As a killer I don't really care about waiting a minute when the survivor can't do anything, I have had multiple games when the last survivor in chase could have DS and I had them down more than 60 secs just to "don't allow it". You consider that playing? I don't. It is just waiting.
I have blamed survivors for their actions. If you run into the killer and you go down, too bad. A lot of the game works around survivors, killer actions are not that relevant because they can only punish survivors mistakes. Even if you were right and all of the weight of being down were from just the killer doing actions right, survivors have to wait an extra 60 seconds to even have the chance to do something relevant, that's unfun for the survivor, the killer has things going while you play to a slug walking simulator. It's annoying for both sides, that's why people complain so much about it.
It's a killer choice between down 1 or multiple survivors, on the examples above there are no other useful things the killer could do. Picking the DS player is the lowest priority task BUT that doesn't mean there are multiple options to choose everytime this kind of situations happen. And again, waiting is not a fun decision to choose even if it's the right one, even more if that causes another player to wait too (and that player can't choose to wait).
Lockers are not a problem, if DS surv enters into a locker after a chase, he did well. But that's not the situation above described, if you are in a bad position to give the killer a reason to chase you quickly, you are not going to a locker in time. Again a similar situation can happen with lockers if there is nothing more to do than chase the DS survivor. You will have to wait until the timer expires to catch the survivor, super fun for both.
All of this "waiting is unfun" problem it's worse for survivors. Most I've faced choose to get out the locker (choosing not to wait) to only being hit and slugged (waiting even they didn't want to). You don't even have to use the perk to be affected by this.
I avoid this situation as much as possible because I have enough waiting while in qeue as survivor to even have to wait more in game.
When I play killer I just wait, maybe breaking a pallet or something while the perk runs out. Not fun but not a big deal.
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The idea that BT causes people to unhook with no fear is a fallacy. You, as the BT provider, only get it if within the killers terror radius. So not only are you likely to take a hit, you are likely to go down if the killer is truly camping... Which is a lot of the time. DS is intended to have a "no fear" effect. It says it right in the perk description and follows the games horror movie eque theme, imo. It has numerous counters and is only usable one time during a match. In the grand scheme of balance, these are some of the only things providing solo survivors with ANY balance. They work as intended and should stay as they are.
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I think it shpuld deactivate if the survivor works on a gen or is fully healed. The only times I ever really get hit with DS unintentionally are when I find an injured survivor working on a gen next to a healthy teammate.
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But where is the big difference then if someone healthy instantly unhooks you when the killer was just turning around. The killer will down you, hit the unhooker and if he picks you up he gets the DS and in that case it was also the fault of a teammate. I dont really see the big difference there. DS should prevent actions that aren't in your hands, i.e. the killer tunneling you right off the back or a teammate that only wants his points. Thats what DS should do in my opinion. DS is so frustrating because people go back to the gen because they know you can't hook them again in 60s.
I understand your point and i agree that it's a team game and therefore the killer shouldn't be punished for misstakes others make, but if i equip DS because i don't want others to ruin my fun only because they tend to do things out of my controll than i should be able to protect me with something i have to waste a perk slot for.
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i would say not having any fear of a killer is an issue tbh, but putting that aside you say its a one time use, which yeah sure that is true but its not a 1v1, its a 4v1 which means there can be 4 people running DS, also like i said BT can trigger 6-8 times depending and so that makes up to 12 possible extra escapes/extended chases and thats where the issue lies, like my previous comment said most games its not bad but when everyone runs meta perks its an issue. i think having DS deactivate is a fair balance, this means while the killer chases someone completely new you as a survivor have the choice to heal and play safe or try and push gens and be less fearful. this leaves a choice which means if youre experienced youll make the right decision depending on the situation. im not biased and thats why i say DS should counter moris as well that way its 100% anti tunnel as the killer cant mori you off hook and also cannot wait out DS due to its 60second duration (gens takes about 80 seconds solo btw so waiting out 1 DS could nearly be 3 gens just for 1hook state)
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Same thread has been accured yesterday. And hundreds of times before too. And its still stupid.
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The devs have changed DS with the intention to make it an anti tunnel perk, but that doesn't mean it only needs to be good against tunneling and be useless in any other scenario.
Bad enough that survivors pretty much have to run DS if they want to have some counter against tunneling killers.
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