Why Self-Care is Broken Beyond Belief, and How I Would Fix it
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@SovererignKing said:
Barring the other points, as Powerbats said, I’ll tell you now that NOED is not balanced. Ruin could use a tweek to make it less susceptible to be made irrelevant that is true.NOED is a crappy cheese, and the only perk I consider a crutch for Killers. It a cheesy “Comeback” perk that rewards failure. Sure, the game isn’t balanced and Survivors are too strong, thanks to Gen Rushing being too easy to pull off, thanks to Looping making it a nightmare to catch anyone. However that’s not justification for a perk like NOED.
Good Killers can be cucked by bad map balance, bad mechanics, unbalanced Survivor perks, this is true. However the opposite is also true. Killers who are legitimately bad at the game can easily get carried hard by NOED. Killers that absolutely do not deserve to get much can get a ton.
Take this Huntress for example:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hwMKJtVdFeYCouldn’t land a hatchet throw to save his life. Missed even regular swings. Spent the whole match just trying to tunnel one dude out. Got one other person... Then NOED. Snowballed the whole damn team. You may use the defense of “break the totems!” I did, but only a SWF can coordinate knowing if they broke all 5 totems. It’s really unrealistic to expect 4 randoms to make sure they got all 5 totems.
I for one would rather the balance the game and get rid of crutches like NOED. It’s just not fair legitimately bad Killers can get carried by one perk. Same as DS, it carries bad Survivors.
Side Note : Honestly when it comes to SC, they just need to give it limited uses. The whole reset to zero thing is kind of stupid imo. It’s the Killers fault in the first place the Survivor got away and was able to self care. YOU as the Killer failed to track your prey properly. The problem with self care really is how little it means to be injured while body blocking. The developers just need to limit it to 3 uses l, so Survivors have to be more judicial.
Lastly, Spint Burst needs a change that you have to be running for 3 seconds before it activates imo. That way it doesn’t just cuck Ambush Killers so hard.
I'd have to disagree with your assertion that Hex: NoED is a crutch perk.
In regards to the video you linked:
Ironically, the video you linked not only shows how badly yourself and the group of survivors you were with played, but that the killer that you say was 'carried by Hex: NoED', was actually not that bad at killer in the first place. Firstly, they were running a decent loadout, which means they likely know what they're doing. Secondly, they were using a controller, which is obvious to see based on the fact that they turned at one constant rate, which means that they had their joystick pushed as far as it could go to turn. With something as limiting as a controller to be aiming with against survivors that can be highly mobile and agile even with a controller, missing swings and throws is expected and sometimes unavoidable. It's not like they're using a mouse that they can adjust the DPI of to perfectly suit themselves, then are able to turn the exact right amount they need to at every opportunity, to land hits. Thirdly, it took yourself and fellow survivors 10 minutes to power the exit gates, and you IGNORED several unlit totems that were on your screen. Complaining about Hex: NoED after you had 10 minutes to break 5 totems (at 14 seconds each and not being difficult to locate, taking a grand total of 70 seconds to break and maybe 30-40 seconds of total travel time, you could've broken them all solo in under 2 minutes, but you chose not to), is pathetic. Especially on the pallet lodge, where you have visibility to spot totems almost across the entire map. Additionally, the killer had 1 survivor dead before the exit gates were powered, and would have killed you even without Hex: NoED, for a total of two kills. And the only reason that Hex: NoED was able to be used in that match, was because your fellow survivors played like altruistic lemmings after the exit gates were powered, EVEN AFTER THEY KNEW Hex: NoED was in play. That's not the killer being carried by a crutch - that's survivors dying to their own stupidity. After your shameful display of the survivor main mentality 'I'm bad at the game, nerf the other side', I'm finding it incredibly difficult to take you seriously, and to treat someone who is so entitled as yourself, with respect while maintaining my own equanimity. I just want to laugh at the sheer ridiculousness of what I'm responding to, but that wouldn't be respectful, now would it? Anyways, here goes.First of all, Hex: NoED has several soft counters.
Hope, Dead Hard, Small Game, stealth perks (such as Urban Evasion), flashlight saving the person downed by NoED during the pickup animation, insta-healing them off the ground with an anti-hemmorhagic syringe or styptic agent, etc.Secondly, Hex: NoED has the hard counter of breaking all the unlit totems. You say that it's near impossible to do outside of a SWF, but I disagree.
Let's talk hypothetically.
If all 4 survivors spawn more or less evenly spread across the map, they'll all spawn near a totem and can break 4/5 of the unlit totems that could be Hex: NoED, about 14 seconds into the match. It doesn't take a SWF to do that, and survivors are more likely to take care of totems before generators and the like because they're very rewarding in terms of point gain per time spent, 600 points for 14 seconds of time.
At 14 seconds each (to destroy) and not being difficult to locate, taking a grand total of 70 seconds to break and maybe 30-40 seconds of total travel time, you could've broken them all solo in under 2 minutes. If you memorise totem spawn locations within map tiles and totem placement distributions, it doesn't matter how randomly they spawn, because they spawn randomly WITHIN A VERY LIMITED NUMBER OF SPAWN LOCATIONS, each of which you can quickly check, and usually from a distance.
And that's not even mentioning that every totem perk the killer runs, reduces the number of unlit totems on the map that you'd have to find to counter Hex: NoED before it spawns by 1. Since Hex: Ruin is meta at high ranks, that means that survivors generally only have to break 4 unlit totems, not 5, to counter Hex: NoED without ever having to worry about being endangered by it.
Since I've already debunked the survivor main myth that 'bad killers get carried by Hex: NoED', let me fix your words for you.
How it works in actuality, is that 'Hex: NoED sometimes provides killers with the tools necessary to punish bad survivors, but most of the time it is 100% useless against even half-decent survivors'.Now, onto the part of your post relevant to the thread itself, which apparently was just a side note, an afterthought. You said:
"Side Note : Honestly when it comes to SC, they just need to give it limited uses. The whole reset to zero thing is kind of stupid imo. It’s the Killers fault in the first place the Survivor got away and was able to self care. YOU as the Killer failed to track your prey properly. The problem with self care really is how little it means to be injured while body blocking. The developers just need to limit it to 3 uses l, so Survivors have to be more judicial."
While giving SC limited uses would solve some of the problems that Self-Care causes, it would create more problems than it would solve. First of all, if Self-Care were ever nerfed in that way, survivors mains would complain incessantly on the forums and review bomb until the devs caved and gave them what they wanted, which would be a buff to another aspect of Self-Care (likely, it would be reverted to healing at around full speed), and/or another nerf nuke to killers (such as by removing the lunge of the killer's attack from the game, which I've seen many survivors demand on the Steam forums, time and time again).
Agreed, on the reset to zero thing being stupid.
I disagree about it being the killer's fault that the survivor has the opportunity to Self-Care. If the killer wants to have any chance of getting more than one kill against half-decent survivors, they'll inevitably have to provide at least one survivor with an opportunity to heal (since the only way to stop survivors from completing their objectives, is to take more than one of them away from their objectives at the same time). Essentially, what you're saying is that the killer's only counter to Self-Care is tunnelling, and if they don't do so, they're a bad killer. And the problem with that statement, in that you're saying that the only counter to Self-Care is to tunnel a single Self-Care user to death, is that the time spent doing so would provide every other survivor with more than enough time to escape. Which essentially translates to saying 'only bad killers don't throw the match or get more than one kill'. Which is just, plainly and simply, stupid.
There are two main problems with limiting the uses of Self-Care, balance-wise (rather than realistically, as I mentioned the realistic concerns with this route of nerfing Self-Care earlier in this post). The first, is that not many heals are necessary anyways. If you consider a survivor Self-Care'ing after each hooking and having one spare Self-Care, that's more than enough healing, more than they'd have needed if they played the match carefully. The second problem with that, is that most effective bodyblocks are done when multiple survivors are doing the bodyblocking. And in this case, those survivors who bodyblocked together would also be in a position to heal each other and not need to dip into their Self-Care charges.
And, on the note of your proposed Sprint Burst rework. And it is a rework, since it's partially a nerf, and it's partially a buff. This would allow Sprint Burst users to make better time around the map without wasting Sprint Burst by running for only 2 seconds, walking, then repeating the process. But, at the same time, it would make survivors more vulnerable to ambush killers. It's definitely an interesting idea, and could be worth implementing into a PTB.
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Neod can be countered quite easily, just cleanse all the totems. Self care on the other hand is taken by 99% of the survivors I play against, in fact I am more surprised when a survivor doesn't take it. The majority of survivors taking the same perk means there is something that needs reworking.
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I like this idea. How about instead of one shotting you it puts you in a BT state where you will go down after a short time 20 secs. With a cooldown of some kind so its not abused.SadonicShadow said:There is many ideas as a way to nerf selfcare. I originally proposed that we buff the self care healing speed back to normal and then instead of the selfcare being a complete heal it puts you in a no mither state. You dont drop blood, you still limp and your grunts of pain are heavily reduced and you still go down in one hit. This effectively makes it a good enough heal cobbled together with what you find in the environment until you can get proper medical attention.
In addition to that i would buff the selfcare medkit healing efficiency just enough so that you can get 2 full self heals out of a brown medkit. This in effect encourages players to make trade offs. If you want full self heals without other peoples help you need to bring a medkit.
Arent survivors always crying that they are killing stealth? This would actually help stealth, since if you can alude the killer for 10 seconds, you can stealth again since the reduced grunts(80-90 reduction) would not give your position away.
Have it be like rescuing a survivor, if you cancel it, you have to restart it.
Just so survivors dont cry, maybe have it so then when patched up, it takes 25% less time and charhes from medkit to be healed. This means it will actually 5ake less time to heal yourself than with current self care, but you have to use a medkit.0 -
I'd say give it a set amount of tokens at the start of a match, like 3/4/5 and lose one when you do the equivalent of a full heal.
Or maybe give it a way to earn tokens (and start with 0, obviously)0 -
@blue4zion said:
I'd say give it a set amount of tokens at the start of a match, like 3/4/5 and lose one when you do the equivalent of a full heal.
Or maybe give it a way to earn tokens (and start with 0, obviously)1 Token per tier of the perk.
With the option to finish healing with a medkit instead to save a token.0 -
@Pennywise said:
Neod can be countered quite easily, just cleanse all the totems. Self care on the other hand is taken by 99% of the survivors I play against, in fact I am more surprised when a survivor doesn't take it. The majority of survivors taking the same perk means there is something that needs reworking.I see your "Self Care is used by all survivors" and raise with a "Ruin, Nurse's Calling and BBQ are used by all killer". How do you explain this?
If people are so upset about Self Care and if everyone uses it, trade off some of those perks with Sloppy Butcher or Coulrophobia. Unless you don't want to lose those 3 perks...
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I think Self-Care is fine as it is when it comes to healing yourself. It is not too slow and it is not too fast. The medkit efficiency could use a little love though.
As for being in the dream state, I am not sure. A lot of the time I never get a skill check to wake myself up but maybe there should be no skill checks for Self-Care while in the dream state. Maybe?1 -
@misteraxel
sloppy butcher is a must have in my opinion. It’s one of the few cross map pressure perks in the game.0 -
@Sarief said:
@powerbats said:
@Sarief said:
@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?
ps: like nurse's calling stops self-care in anyway at high ranks
So because you don't like the otehr sides perks they're cheats rigggghhhttt. So since survivors don't like NOED, RUIN, NURSE's etc that makes them cheats using your logic. The killer might have this perk well that means I need to bring this one and so on. Well then what if it's this killer, well then I need to bring this perk.
Also if you don't think nurses calling doesn't help with sc you're in denial.
1) learn English.
2) I don't like imbalanced perks. you like them? gtfo.
3) killer perks have to change game. Survivor has to adapt. Not the other way around
4) survivors don't like anything
5) NC does not help. Survivors counter it OR survivors use it. It helps only against noobs who heal not under pallet loop. It does not stop/slow/hinder healing in anyway and if you are that close to killer, killer can hear you anyway. it's only useful on wraith, since he hears worse in spirit realm
6) Survivors have perks that counter specific killer = ok. Survivors have perks that counter all killer + specifically counter few killer + change gameplay = cheats. If you don't see this, you're in denial.
7) Noed, ruin = are balanced. Ruin should be buffed, tbh. Had problem with it only once, because killer was laggy af.
8) you didn't refute this point:you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?
in any way
1.- calm dam boy
2.- dont insult
3.- ruin dont need a buff the totems needs to be a good place to hide it
4.- loops are neally gone and you have spirit fury like you said ADAPT
5.-NOED its fine
6.-not all survivors have a counter of killer perk for example agitation, BS (DS its not a counter) BBQ etc2 -
In response to the original post:
While I completely agree on the power of self-care as a time saver to the extreme for survivors, I do not think that self-care's healing speed should be nerfed, although that would be the easy solution. Instead, I would rather the devs implement a new status effect, much like they did with blood lust, where self-caring without a med-kit gives the bloody hands status, which slows down all actions and decreases all skill check zones until either 60 seconds of consecutive actions have been acomplished, or that survivor has either used or been heald by a medkit.
A side note on Small Game: This perk should be changed to show the auras of traps and totems within 8 meters while in a chase. Small Game should be more useful against Hag and Trapper (I've run into more traps due to small game because I thought the ding was for the totem right next to me and not the trap in front of me).
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@Tru3Lemon said:
@Sarief said:
@powerbats said:
@Sarief said:
@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?
ps: like nurse's calling stops self-care in anyway at high ranks
So because you don't like the otehr sides perks they're cheats rigggghhhttt. So since survivors don't like NOED, RUIN, NURSE's etc that makes them cheats using your logic. The killer might have this perk well that means I need to bring this one and so on. Well then what if it's this killer, well then I need to bring this perk.
Also if you don't think nurses calling doesn't help with sc you're in denial.
1) learn English.
2) I don't like imbalanced perks. you like them? gtfo.
3) killer perks have to change game. Survivor has to adapt. Not the other way around
4) survivors don't like anything
5) NC does not help. Survivors counter it OR survivors use it. It helps only against noobs who heal not under pallet loop. It does not stop/slow/hinder healing in anyway and if you are that close to killer, killer can hear you anyway. it's only useful on wraith, since he hears worse in spirit realm
6) Survivors have perks that counter specific killer = ok. Survivors have perks that counter all killer + specifically counter few killer + change gameplay = cheats. If you don't see this, you're in denial.
7) Noed, ruin = are balanced. Ruin should be buffed, tbh. Had problem with it only once, because killer was laggy af.
8) you didn't refute this point:you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?
in any way
1.- calm dam boy
2.- dont insult
3.- ruin dont need a buff the totems needs to be a good place to hide it
4.- loops are neally gone and you have spirit fury like you said ADAPT
5.-NOED its fine
6.-not all survivors have a counter of killer perk for example agitation, BS (DS its not a counter) BBQ etcThe necro is real....
well, first:
this post was WAY before Spirit was a thing. So making arguments about new perks is stupid.
second: infinites are nearly gone. Loops are still there and will be there. Looping exploit is still in game and annoying as hell.
third: Agitation - ok, BS... brutal strength no counter? it's not gameplay change to counter it. BBQ has counters.0 -
@SadonicShadow
Dud, its great idea. Honestly0 -
@Kind_Lemon said:
In response to the original post:While I completely agree on the power of self-care as a time saver to the extreme for survivors, I do not think that self-care's healing speed should be nerfed, although that would be the easy solution. Instead, I would rather the devs implement a new status effect, much like they did with blood lust, where self-caring without a med-kit gives the bloody hands status, which slows down all actions and decreases all skill check zones until either 60 seconds of consecutive actions have been acomplished, or that survivor has either used or been heald by a medkit.
A side note on Small Game: This perk should be changed to show the auras of traps and totems within 8 meters while in a chase. Small Game should be more useful against Hag and Trapper (I've run into more traps due to small game because I thought the ding was for the totem right next to me and not the trap in front of me).
That's an interesting idea.
Though, I have a few questions about it:
By what percentage would action speed be slowed per tier of the perk? By what amount would skill check sizes be reduced? Would the bloody hands status disappear faster under the effects of Vigil? Would there be a quick action where you could use a rag from a medkit to wipe those bloody hands off, or would it only be cleared by fully medkit healing?
Depending on the answers to those questions, it could seem like a solid rework plan for Self-Care.
I may go through the replies to this thread, and take some of the ideas and incorporate them into the OP. Though I'll probably wait for some more replies with more ideas to flow in, to get them all in at once rather than have to do it over and over again and potentially have the thread locked for a while, like it was when it was first posted.
On the note of Small Game, your rework suggestion is actually a reversion to how Small Game used to be (though 6 meters was the range back then), back when the Trapper was the only trapping killer. But the devs nerfed Small Game, because it was essentially a hard counter to a specific killer that made that killer's kit entirely useless. Back in the day, when Saboteur was meta, SaboJakes with Saboteur and Small Game would go around destroying all the Trapper's traps and teabag all the way to the nearest infinite.
Personally, I don't want Small Game reverted back to its former glory. I don't think a perk should guarantee a survivor's safety, and that survivors should have to survey their surroundings carefully at all times, rather than have a perk that takes the thought, awareness, perception, and general skill out of it. This is because traps are easy to spot and easy to predict the location of, so having a perk to do something for you that you could easily do without it, just says you don't want to have to think during a match (against a Trapper or Hag).
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Self care is good where it stands. There are perks that can impact as well.
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@Williamz said:
Self care is good where it stands. There are perks that can impact as well.So tell me again, how is that perk "good where it stands"?
Unlimited self sufficient heals in an asymetrical horror survival game?
2 people healing themself with SC take the same amount of time than them healing each other up, but eliminating the need to find each other or the need that BOTH escape the killer.
They can just spread out and the killer can only follow one, while the other gets a free heal.
It encourages tunneling, which survivor hate, and make perks like Thanatophobia pretty much useless.
I also encourages bodyblocking and tanking hits to an extent where it is annoying to the killer player (toxic).My guess when I read statements like this is: your a survivor main, huh?
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@Wolf74 said:
@Williamz said:
Self care is good where it stands. There are perks that can impact as well.So tell me again, how is that perk "good where it stands"?
Unlimited self sufficient heals in an asymetrical horror survival game?
2 people healing themself with SC take the same amount of time than them healing each other up, but eliminating the need to find each other or the need that BOTH escape the killer.
They can just spread out and the killer can only follow one, while the other gets a free heal.
It encourages tunneling, which survivor hate, and make perks like Thanatophobia pretty much useless.
I also encourages bodyblocking and tanking hits to an extent where it is annoying to the killer player (toxic).My guess when I read statements like this is: your a survivor main, huh?
If you think Thanatophobia is useless in the current meta and players working together doing hit protection (Hint: it's actually a score event in the game) is toxic then I don't think I'd be able to explain to you how self care is important to the health of cooperative play of survivors.
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@Williamz said:
@Wolf74 said:
@Williamz said:
Self care is good where it stands. There are perks that can impact as well.So tell me again, how is that perk "good where it stands"?
Unlimited self sufficient heals in an asymetrical horror survival game?
2 people healing themself with SC take the same amount of time than them healing each other up, but eliminating the need to find each other or the need that BOTH escape the killer.
They can just spread out and the killer can only follow one, while the other gets a free heal.
It encourages tunneling, which survivor hate, and make perks like Thanatophobia pretty much useless.
I also encourages bodyblocking and tanking hits to an extent where it is annoying to the killer player (toxic).My guess when I read statements like this is: your a survivor main, huh?
If you think Thanatophobia is useless in the current meta and players working together doing hit protection (Hint: it's actually a score event in the game) is toxic then I don't think I'd be able to explain to you how self care is important to the health of cooperative play of survivors.
Come on dude, give it try.
Don't hide behind the scoreevent thing. I think you know what I mean with being toxic. It is not intended gameplay; if 3 survivor do the conga to to tank a hit (and after that spread out like crazy chicken and everyone is Self Caring in a different corner).
And talking about scoreevents for that, scoreevents should be tied to taking a risk. The higher the risk to pull an action of, the higher the reward, but with SC, there s no risk in it. So why get a reward for it?
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@Williamz said:
Self care is good where it stands. There are perks that can impact as well.Do you have any evidence or reasons to back up those two assertions? If so, I'd love to hear them.
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I dont care about the speed. Hell, they could put it up to 75% speed but as long as it is infinate, it is broken. I want dishing out hits to multiple survivors at a time to mean something.
SC should opperate on a charge system, so here is my change
Self care starts with 4/5/6 charges with a maximum of 8/10/12. where 8 is enough to heal yourself. You can use charges to heal yourself at 60% normal healing speed. If you do not completely heal yourself, the stitching will come undone at 2% per second or 5% per second while running. You gain 1 charge back every 35/30/25 seconds you spend in the killer's terror radius0 -
Oh thats priceless. Nurses calling DOES NOT stop healing. What the ######### dude, like it doesnt even do anything to stop it. Slower healing? No. Harder skillchecks? No. Less medkit efficiancy? No. It does one thing and one thing only. It reaveils survivors (most likely you) who are stupid enough to heal within the terror radius.powerbats said:@Sarief said:
@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?
ps: like nurse's calling stops self-care in anyway at high ranks
So because you don't like the otehr sides perks they're cheats rigggghhhttt. So since survivors don't like NOED, RUIN, NURSE's etc that makes them cheats using your logic. The killer might have this perk well that means I need to bring this one and so on. Well then what if it's this killer, well then I need to bring this perk.
Also if you don't think nurses calling doesn't help with sc you're in denial.
After that you most likely say, But I waS SelF CAReinG hoW dID hE geT to Me beFore I wAS DOne? NErF KillEr moVemeNt spEed aND maKe selF CarE faSter.
Survivors treat killer aura reading like some God sent hack, complaining about BBQ and nurses, but if aura reading is so ######### good, why dont I see evey one of your tiny survivor brain asses running
Kindred
Dark sense
Bond
Empathy
Alert
Plunders instinct
Deja Vu
Detectives Hunch
Object of Obsession
Open Handed
Wake Up!
Windows of Oppourtunity.
Instead we see, SC, SB BL DS and BT.
So all of you survivors need to stop complaining about aura reading.3 -
Doesnt that mean self care rewards failure? You know, with the getting hit and all...SovererignKing said:@Sarief
Barring the other points, as Powerbats said, I’ll tell you now that NOED is not balanced. Ruin could use a tweek to make it less susceptible to be made irrelevant that is true.
NOED is a crappy cheese, and the only perk I consider a crutch for Killers. It a cheesy “Comeback” perk that rewards failure. Sure, the game isn’t balanced and Survivors are too strong, thanks to Gen Rushing being too easy to pull off, thanks to Looping making it a nightmare to catch anyone. However that’s not justification for a perk like NOED.
Good Killers can be cucked by bad map balance, bad mechanics, unbalanced Survivor perks, this is true. However the opposite is also true. Killers who are legitimately bad at the game can easily get carried hard by NOED. Killers that absolutely do not deserve to get much can get a ton.
Take this Huntress for example:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hwMKJtVdFeY
Couldn’t land a hatchet throw to save his life. Missed even regular swings. Spent the whole match just trying to tunnel one dude out. Got one other person... Then NOED. Snowballed the whole damn team. You may use the defense of “break the totems!” I did, but only a SWF can coordinate knowing if they broke all 5 totems. It’s really unrealistic to expect 4 randoms to make sure they got all 5 totems.
I for one would rather the balance the game and get rid of crutches like NOED. It’s just not fair legitimately bad Killers can get carried by one perk. Same as DS, it carries bad Survivors.
Side Note : Honestly when it comes to SC, they just need to give it limited uses. The whole reset to zero thing is kind of stupid imo. It’s the Killers fault in the first place the Survivor got away and was able to self care. YOU as the Killer failed to track your prey properly. The problem with self care really is how little it means to be injured while body blocking. The developers just need to limit it to 3 uses l, so Survivors have to be more judicial.
Lastly, Spint Burst needs a change that you have to be running for 3 seconds before it activates imo. That way it doesn’t just cuck Ambush Killers so hard.0 -
That is bad interpretation.M2Fream said:
Doesnt that mean self care rewards failure? You know, with the getting hit and all...SovererignKing said:@Sarief
Barring the other points, as Powerbats said, I’ll tell you now that NOED is not balanced. Ruin could use a tweek to make it less susceptible to be made irrelevant that is true.
NOED is a crappy cheese, and the only perk I consider a crutch for Killers. It a cheesy “Comeback” perk that rewards failure. Sure, the game isn’t balanced and Survivors are too strong, thanks to Gen Rushing being too easy to pull off, thanks to Looping making it a nightmare to catch anyone. However that’s not justification for a perk like NOED.
Good Killers can be cucked by bad map balance, bad mechanics, unbalanced Survivor perks, this is true. However the opposite is also true. Killers who are legitimately bad at the game can easily get carried hard by NOED. Killers that absolutely do not deserve to get much can get a ton.
Take this Huntress for example:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hwMKJtVdFeY
Couldn’t land a hatchet throw to save his life. Missed even regular swings. Spent the whole match just trying to tunnel one dude out. Got one other person... Then NOED. Snowballed the whole damn team. You may use the defense of “break the totems!” I did, but only a SWF can coordinate knowing if they broke all 5 totems. It’s really unrealistic to expect 4 randoms to make sure they got all 5 totems.
I for one would rather the balance the game and get rid of crutches like NOED. It’s just not fair legitimately bad Killers can get carried by one perk. Same as DS, it carries bad Survivors.
Side Note : Honestly when it comes to SC, they just need to give it limited uses. The whole reset to zero thing is kind of stupid imo. It’s the Killers fault in the first place the Survivor got away and was able to self care. YOU as the Killer failed to track your prey properly. The problem with self care really is how little it means to be injured while body blocking. The developers just need to limit it to 3 uses l, so Survivors have to be more judicial.
Lastly, Spint Burst needs a change that you have to be running for 3 seconds before it activates imo. That way it doesn’t just cuck Ambush Killers so hard.
You cannot design like that.
It is there, because it is needed0 -
@Sarief said:
M2Fream said:
SovererignKing said:Barring the other points, as Powerbats said, I’ll tell you now that NOED is not balanced. Ruin could use a tweek to make it less susceptible to be made irrelevant that is true.
NOED is a crappy cheese, and the only perk I consider a crutch for Killers. It a cheesy “Comeback” perk that rewards failure. Sure, the game isn’t balanced and Survivors are too strong, thanks to Gen Rushing being too easy to pull off, thanks to Looping making it a nightmare to catch anyone. However that’s not justification for a perk like NOED.
Good Killers can be cucked by bad map balance, bad mechanics, unbalanced Survivor perks, this is true. However the opposite is also true. Killers who are legitimately bad at the game can easily get carried hard by NOED. Killers that absolutely do not deserve to get much can get a ton.
Take this Huntress for example:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hwMKJtVdFeYCouldn’t land a hatchet throw to save his life. Missed even regular swings. Spent the whole match just trying to tunnel one dude out. Got one other person... Then NOED. Snowballed the whole damn team. You may use the defense of “break the totems!” I did, but only a SWF can coordinate knowing if they broke all 5 totems. It’s really unrealistic to expect 4 randoms to make sure they got all 5 totems.
I for one would rather the balance the game and get rid of crutches like NOED. It’s just not fair legitimately bad Killers can get carried by one perk. Same as DS, it carries bad Survivors.
Side Note : Honestly when it comes to SC, they just need to give it limited uses. The whole reset to zero thing is kind of stupid imo. It’s the Killers fault in the first place the Survivor got away and was able to self care. YOU as the Killer failed to track your prey properly. The problem with self care really is how little it means to be injured while body blocking. The developers just need to limit it to 3 uses l, so Survivors have to be more judicial.
Lastly, Spint Burst needs a change that you have to be running for 3 seconds before it activates imo. That way it doesn’t just cuck Ambush Killers so hard.
Doesnt that mean self care rewards failure? You know, with the getting hit and all...
That is bad interpretation.
You cannot design like that.
It is there, because it is neededNeeded? Maybe.
To good? 100% yes.0 -
@Sarief said:
M2Fream said:
SovererignKing said:Barring the other points, as Powerbats said, I’ll tell you now that NOED is not balanced. Ruin could use a tweek to make it less susceptible to be made irrelevant that is true.
NOED is a crappy cheese, and the only perk I consider a crutch for Killers. It a cheesy “Comeback” perk that rewards failure. Sure, the game isn’t balanced and Survivors are too strong, thanks to Gen Rushing being too easy to pull off, thanks to Looping making it a nightmare to catch anyone. However that’s not justification for a perk like NOED.
Good Killers can be cucked by bad map balance, bad mechanics, unbalanced Survivor perks, this is true. However the opposite is also true. Killers who are legitimately bad at the game can easily get carried hard by NOED. Killers that absolutely do not deserve to get much can get a ton.
Take this Huntress for example:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hwMKJtVdFeYCouldn’t land a hatchet throw to save his life. Missed even regular swings. Spent the whole match just trying to tunnel one dude out. Got one other person... Then NOED. Snowballed the whole damn team. You may use the defense of “break the totems!” I did, but only a SWF can coordinate knowing if they broke all 5 totems. It’s really unrealistic to expect 4 randoms to make sure they got all 5 totems.
I for one would rather the balance the game and get rid of crutches like NOED. It’s just not fair legitimately bad Killers can get carried by one perk. Same as DS, it carries bad Survivors.
Side Note : Honestly when it comes to SC, they just need to give it limited uses. The whole reset to zero thing is kind of stupid imo. It’s the Killers fault in the first place the Survivor got away and was able to self care. YOU as the Killer failed to track your prey properly. The problem with self care really is how little it means to be injured while body blocking. The developers just need to limit it to 3 uses l, so Survivors have to be more judicial.
Lastly, Spint Burst needs a change that you have to be running for 3 seconds before it activates imo. That way it doesn’t just cuck Ambush Killers so hard.
Doesnt that mean self care rewards failure? You know, with the getting hit and all...
That is bad interpretation.
You cannot design like that.
It is there, because it is neededI'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Are you saying that Self-Care exists in its current form because it is needed?
What belongs in the blank, of: 'You cannot design ___ like that.'
What do you mean by a 'bad interpretation', and what makes it a 'bad' interpretation as opposed to a 'good' interpretation?0 -
@ShrimpTwiggs said:
My idea to change it is a little out there. I would have the survivor running self-care start off with a certain amount of times they can use it, depending on the level of the perk, and they can "recharge" it by performing altruistic actions like unhooks or healing others. There are probably better ways to nerf it, but I thought I'd throw in my thoughts.Well, there are a few things to hash out with that idea.
-Which scoring events (the full list) would give Self-Care charges?
-How many Self-Care charges would each scoring event give, and how many 'charges' would be comparable to a full heal?
-Would the Self-Care user start the match with Self-Care charges, or only be able to use Self-Care after acquiring more Self-Care charges in the match?@M2Fream said:
I dont care about the speed. Hell, they could put it up to 75% speed but as long as it is infinate, it is broken. I want dishing out hits to multiple survivors at a time to mean something.SC should opperate on a charge system, so here is my change
Self care starts with 4/5/6 charges with a maximum of 8/10/12. where 8 is enough to heal yourself. You can use charges to heal yourself at 60% normal healing speed. If you do not completely heal yourself, the stitching will come undone at 2% per second or 5% per second while running. You gain 1 charge back every 35/30/25 seconds you spend in the killer's terror radius
Would this idea be like Stakeout, where charges are only acquired while NOT in a chase in the killer's terror radius, or would your suggestion have survivors generating charges in a chase as well?
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@shootaman777 said:
@ShrimpTwiggs said:
My idea to change it is a little out there. I would have the survivor running self-care start off with a certain amount of times they can use it, depending on the level of the perk, and they can "recharge" it by performing altruistic actions like unhooks or healing others. There are probably better ways to nerf it, but I thought I'd throw in my thoughts.Well, there are a few things to hash out with that idea.
-Which scoring events (the full list) would give Self-Care charges?
-How many Self-Care charges would each scoring event give, and how many 'charges' would be comparable to a full heal?
-Would the Self-Care user start the match with Self-Care charges, or only be able to use Self-Care after acquiring more Self-Care charges in the match?@M2Fream said:
I dont care about the speed. Hell, they could put it up to 75% speed but as long as it is infinate, it is broken. I want dishing out hits to multiple survivors at a time to mean something.SC should opperate on a charge system, so here is my change
Self care starts with 4/5/6 charges with a maximum of 8/10/12. where 8 is enough to heal yourself. You can use charges to heal yourself at 60% normal healing speed. If you do not completely heal yourself, the stitching will come undone at 2% per second or 5% per second while running. You gain 1 charge back every 35/30/25 seconds you spend in the killer's terror radius
Would this idea be like Stakeout, where charges are only acquired while NOT in a chase in the killer's terror radius, or would your suggestion have survivors generating charges in a chase as well?
By charges I meant the amount of times you could use it. So if you performed an altruistic action, you'd unlock the ability to heal yourself. It would be stackable so, say, you got someone off a hook and then healed them, you would be able to heal yourself twice. Of course, it would only be stackable to a certain amount, depending on the color of the perk, and you'd start out with a certain number of charges at the beginning of the match. Just an idea though. It probably needs some tweaks here and there.
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Self Care does not need a mechanic to refill charges.
Just use them and at some point they are gone.
Done.0 -
@M2Fream said:
Kindred
Dark sense
Bond
Empathy
Alert
Plunders instinct
Deja Vu
Detectives Hunch
Object of Obsession
Open Handed
Wake Up!
Windows of Oppourtunity.Kid, nobody uses those (maybe some bond?), while all killers use aura reading.
Get over it and find another argument.0 -
The mistake was to create Teacheable perks, in the first place.
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@Radiant said:
The mistake was to create Teacheable perks, in the first place.Without teachables, every survivor player will play Claudette and every killer player will play Nurse or Hag. They're just the best options, at that point.
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Not so sho0
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@Radiant said:
Not so sho?
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Your wrong. Play some killer and see it yourself.
Kindred, Dark Sense, Bond, Empathy, Alert, Plunderer. OoO… Hunch is actually pretty strong... and even I do use Open Handed every now and then.0 -
Nobody uses those, sorry.
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That is their argument. That, for all survivors' insistence that when killers have aura reading it is ridiculously broken, survivors do not use aura reading even when they have it available (even though, according to them, it's incredibly broken). And you've just agreed with and furthered it.
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The proof of the matter is the devs' statistics that they've given out on devstreams about perk usage. If I recall, Empathy and/or Bond are usually on that top 10 list.
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@shootaman777 said:
The proof of the matter is the devs' statistics that they've given out on devstreams about perk usage. If I recall, Empathy and/or Bond are usually on that top 10 list.
Yep, with Emp usually above Bond.
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Stats include new players that even use promonition or spine chill (lol).
As I said, only bond is used sometimes.
Empathy was just for flashlight saves, but now pickup animation is so fast the chance you get there on time is even lower.Not saying that surv don't use aura cause they are cool, they don't use it because is poor and useless.
Not the same thing you can say about aura readin for killers.
Denying it makes any other argument futile.
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You misunderstand me. That IS my argument. Why do survivors complain nonstop about killer aura reading perks, and none of them use aura reading perks. My point is that the same survivors who use broken SC BT DS dont use aura reading perks, then aura reading must not be so great, therefor, survivors have no argument about op killer aura reading. Aka, stuff likeRadiant said:@M2Fream said:
Kindred
Dark sense
Bond
Empathy
Alert
Plunders instinct
Deja Vu
Detectives Hunch
Object of Obsession
Open Handed
Wake Up!
Windows of Oppourtunity.Kid, nobody uses those (maybe some bond?), while all killers use aura reading.
Get over it and find another argument.
"BARbeQue anD cHile hAS nO counTER"
"NuRsES CallInG coUntErs SeLfcaRe"
Bullshit like that.
My point being, If survivors think aura reading is so good, why dont they all run
[long list of underused survivor aura reading perks]2 -
There are no perks that effectively counter SC. All of the killer perks that reduce time for survivors to complete objectives are negligible at best or hard countered at worst. Healing is a survivor secondary objective, in terms of how objectives may be defined on the survivors side.
The OP has identified the core of the imbalance with SC. But that isn't even the TRUE core of the problem. Healing in general is simple too easy and its made easier by SC. The upcoming patch will help a little. But won't change the identified problem of SC.
SC shouldn't even be a perk imo. The perk instead should be the opposite of Empathy. When you are injured it should reveal all other survivors up to 32/64/infinite. This would help you avoid the killer and find someone to heal you faster.
One of the reasons SC is so detrimental is because survivors MOVING around is critical to survivors REVEALING themselves. The less survivors have to move, the less likely they are to be seen.
So effectively, other then delaying the overall time the game lasts (which is beneficial to the killer, but marginally so at the current SC heal times), SC is free healing because you just need to find a safe place to hide and it doesn't matter how long it takes to heal.
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@M2Fream said:
Radiant said:@M2Fream said:
Kindred
Dark sense
Bond
Empathy
Alert
Plunders instinct
Deja Vu
Detectives Hunch
Object of Obsession
Open Handed
Wake Up!
Windows of Oppourtunity.
Kid, nobody uses those (maybe some bond?), while all killers use aura reading.
Get over it and find another argument.
You misunderstand me. That IS my argument. Why do survivors complain nonstop about killer aura reading perks, and none of them use aura reading perks. My point is that the same survivors who use broken SC BT DS dont use aura reading perks, then aura reading must not be so great, therefor, survivors have no argument about op killer aura reading. Aka, stuff like
"BARbeQue anD cHile hAS nO counTER"
"NuRsES CallInG coUntErs SeLfcaRe"
Bullshit like that.
My point being, If survivors think aura reading is so good, why dont they all run
[long list of underused survivor aura reading perks]Maybe because they are aware of the killers location anyway due to red stain, terror radius, 3rd person, voice comms etc..... They have enough tools already even without having to use a single perk
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Ehm... may I remind you that the game is that KILLER has to find SURVIVORS, and not the opposite? :sarcastic:DeadByFlashlight said:Maybe because they are aware of the killers location anyway due to red stain, terror radius, 3rd person, voice comms etc..... They have enough tools already even without having to use a single perk
And I am not sure if you have noticed but Freddy, Wraith, Pig, Spirit and Myers (5 killers on 13) have NO terror radius, with 2 of them being actually INVISIBLE. (lol).
Of the remaining 8, 2 have teleport (Spirit too, but let's not count her), 2 have insta-down, 1 has ranged attack and 1 has permanent aura reading.
It's ok as is 4 vs 1, but pls save your tears and play :chuffed:1 -
May I remind you that kkllers dont have problems finding survivors. Helk, sime survivors run up to the killker and point to them because clearly everybody (except you) seems to understand that killers have bigger issues chasing rather than finding.Radiant said:
Ehm... may I remind you that the game is that KILLER has to find SURVIVORS, and not the opposite? :sarcastic:DeadByFlashlight said:Maybe because they are aware of the killers location anyway due to red stain, terror radius, 3rd person, voice comms etc..... They have enough tools already even without having to use a single perk
And I am not sure if you have noticed but Freddy, Wraith, Pig, Spirit and Myers (5 killers on 13) have NO terror radius, with 2 of them being actually INVISIBLE. (lol).
Of the remaining 8, 2 have teleport (Spirit too, but let's not count her), 2 have insta-down, 1 has ranged attack and 1 has permanent aura reading.
It's ok as is 4 vs 1, but pls save your tears and play :chuffed:Radiant said:
Ehm... may I remind you that the game is that KILLER has to find SURVIVORS, and not the opposite? :sarcastic:DeadByFlashlight said:Maybe because they are aware of the killers location anyway due to red stain, terror radius, 3rd person, voice comms etc..... They have enough tools already even without having to use a single perk
And I am not sure if you have noticed but Freddy, Wraith, Pig, Spirit and Myers (5 killers on 13) have NO terror radius, with 2 of them being actually INVISIBLE. (lol).
Of the remaining 8, 2 have teleport (Spirit too, but let's not count her), 2 have insta-down, 1 has ranged attack and 1 has permanent aura reading.
It's ok as is 4 vs 1, but pls save your tears and play :chuffed:
I also dont know why you listed instadowns and teleports, as if thats the same as aura reading.
Besides, survivirs keeping track if the killer is important too, especialy killers with no terror radius and killers that are "invisible". Which killer did you mean to say was invisible?
Pig? Bright red jacket
Wraith? If you think wraith is invisibke, I really cant help you
Spirit? Can only be invisible for like 12 seconds at a time and she majes a lot of noise while doing it
So no, no killer is invisible.
Lastly. There are no tears here. Any moisture you may see is sweat fron determination from trying my damndest to get the game to be fair and fun for the poor killers.0
