Why Self-Care is Broken Beyond Belief, and How I Would Fix it

SovererignKing

Sarief said:

@SovererignKing said:
@Sarief

Your “counters” for NOED are just a paltry as Survivors whining that Enduring and Unnerving Presence are “counters” to DS. 

So what? We just all hide while the dude she hooked slowly dies while we sit there with our thumbs up our arse? Just wait out our inevitable death cause “might have NOED!” That’s laughable. Nobody knew he had NOED because the last guy she hit down was before the last gen popped. Also, I didn’t say he camped, he tunneled. Even with tunneling the crap out of the first dude he caught, he still took all 5 Gens worth of time. 

11 nearly 12 minutes of time is not a Gen Rush. Are you kidding me? You want Gen Rush, here : 

First one : 4 minutes 10 seconds
Second : 5 minutes 50 seconds (WITH RUIN!)

THOSE are Gen Rush matches. 

Also, no he didn’t use Bloodwarden or late game strategy.

Lastly, Play With Your Food is an obsession perk. Those perks are designed to be a risk/reward perk. You take a great risk with PWYF (Letting your obsession go, or not even finding them) in exchange for a great reward if you do. It is a hinderance if they SC. They waste time healing. Not as much mind you, but it’s a frigging PERK, it’s supposed to be good.

I agree it needs something to tone it down, limited uses would be a nice tone down so they can’t just blow it over and over. Over-reliant Survivors would fall to pieces just as well. Injuries would carry weight, 25 seconds and a self care charge. That’s 25 seconds of someone off Gens. Besides, like I said, quit dodging the fact YOU as a Killer screwed up and LOST TRACK of your prey in the chase. You still get a small reward for injury by the Survivor having to waste 25 seconds of time healing. 

how in the world are they partly? They disable perk before it activates OR they disable it after it activates. You can also not get hit and avoid killer. You can help the tunneled survivor OR you can let him die. 1 kill is OK, you're not on comms. Should you let him die? if it means 3 get out - yes, since if you try - all 4 die. Overaltruism is bullshit.

If you want direct counter - use Hope.

And to compare DS to NOED is bullshit. If you say breaking totem (or all dull totems) is not counter, I don't know how to talk to you.
DS - escape killer grasp. No downside, no way for killer to counter. Enduring reduces time of stun. So, instead of escaping 100% of time and stunning for 4 seconds, they stun for 3 seconds. Which is what, counter perk 10%? laughable argument.
Unnerving is even more BS. It counters it how exactly? the effects are all up and hitting skill checks is not counterable by killer in any way. Making it hard is the same as using hex:ruin. At some point survivors just start to hit all great skill checks. Because, oh #########, they're not hard.

DS is more bullshit that NOED, I agree. Though that doesn’t mean NOED isn’t bullshit either. Killers can “disable” DS as well by Dribbling, or if they get lucky, hook them at the exact moment DS hits while they are in the hooking animation. Doesn’t mean it’s worth a damn really. You can also avoid DS by never chasing your obsession and avoiding them all match. 

NOED is a bullshit perk, DS is an even greater bullshit perk. Doesn’t change the fact NOED is bullshit as well. 

Hope is not a direct counter. It’s a soft counter. There are two types of counters : Hard Counters and Soft counters. Hard counters flat out stop it. Soft counters soften the blow, but help.

Dribbling and getting lucky on the hook animation are hard counters to DS. Enduring and Unnerving Presence are soft counters to DS. Getting rid of dull totems is a soft counter as you may not get them all. Getting rid of NOED Hex totem is a hard counter. Hope is a soft counter, it counters the Killers speed boost, but not the instant down. 

Dont be so black and white about counter or no counter. Both have hard and soft counters. Both are bullshit though. 

SovererignKing

Sarief said:

@SovererignKing said:
Besides, like I said, quit dodging the fact YOU as a Killer screwed up and LOST TRACK of your prey in the chase. You still get a small reward for injury by the Survivor having to waste 25 seconds of time healing. 

With perk: you have to tunnel. Then you complain the killer was tunneling. Logic
without perk, killer can avoid tunneling to stall the game and actually hunt survivors like he needs to.

Also, you say that, but survivors are given 3 seconds of sprint burst while killer is halted while he looks at the blade. This mechanic should already tell you that killer is not supposed to always catch someone in chase. Given position of pallets, gyms, corners to hide from LoS, camera position, etc, it should be obvious that survivors have to use it to survive. It should be strategically possible to leave person and go for other prey and have strategic decision. But, alas, as long as there is SC, you must tunnel. or people will just instaheal.

And if you do, people will call you tunneler. And show vids where huntress tunnels people and then complain that NOED is OP, because she suddenly tunneled first person and others were not even hiding or using stealth, just relying on looping.

ridiculous bullshit

Oh come on... I’m not complaining he tunneled. It’s literally the most optimal way to Kill someone. He would have been an idiot to not tunnel him. The fact is that even though he DID tunnel, and it took him roughly 10 minutes to do *just that* to kill ONE PERSON. If it takes you 10 minutes to hit ONE PERSON 4 times, you are doing something wrong. Most of all if you are a higher tier Killer like Huntress. 

If that had been been other Killers, I’d have understood. 

Sarief

@SovererignKing said:
Sarief said:

@SovererignKing said:

@Sarief

Your “counters” for NOED are just a paltry as Survivors whining that Enduring and Unnerving Presence are “counters” to DS. 

So what? We just all hide while the dude she hooked slowly dies while we sit there with our thumbs up our arse? Just wait out our inevitable death cause “might have NOED!” That’s laughable. Nobody knew he had NOED because the last guy she hit down was before the last gen popped. Also, I didn’t say he camped, he tunneled. Even with tunneling the crap out of the first dude he caught, he still took all 5 Gens worth of time. 

11 nearly 12 minutes of time is not a Gen Rush. Are you kidding me? You want Gen Rush, here : 

First one : 4 minutes 10 seconds

Second : 5 minutes 50 seconds (WITH RUIN!)

THOSE are Gen Rush matches. 

Also, no he didn’t use Bloodwarden or late game strategy.

Lastly, Play With Your Food is an obsession perk. Those perks are designed to be a risk/reward perk. You take a great risk with PWYF (Letting your obsession go, or not even finding them) in exchange for a great reward if you do. It is a hinderance if they SC. They waste time healing. Not as much mind you, but it’s a frigging PERK, it’s supposed to be good.

I agree it needs something to tone it down, limited uses would be a nice tone down so they can’t just blow it over and over. Over-reliant Survivors would fall to pieces just as well. Injuries would carry weight, 25 seconds and a self care charge. That’s 25 seconds of someone off Gens. Besides, like I said, quit dodging the fact YOU as a Killer screwed up and LOST TRACK of your prey in the chase. You still get a small reward for injury by the Survivor having to waste 25 seconds of time healing. 

how in the world are they partly? They disable perk before it activates OR they disable it after it activates. You can also not get hit and avoid killer. You can help the tunneled survivor OR you can let him die. 1 kill is OK, you're not on comms. Should you let him die? if it means 3 get out - yes, since if you try - all 4 die. Overaltruism is bullshit.

If you want direct counter - use Hope.

And to compare DS to NOED is bullshit. If you say breaking totem (or all dull totems) is not counter, I don't know how to talk to you.

DS - escape killer grasp. No downside, no way for killer to counter. Enduring reduces time of stun. So, instead of escaping 100% of time and stunning for 4 seconds, they stun for 3 seconds. Which is what, counter perk 10%? laughable argument.

Unnerving is even more BS. It counters it how exactly? the effects are all up and hitting skill checks is not counterable by killer in any way. Making it hard is the same as using hex:ruin. At some point survivors just start to hit all great skill checks. Because, oh #########, they're not hard.

DS is more bullshit that NOED, I agree. Though that doesn’t mean NOED isn’t bullshit either. Killers can “disable” DS as well by Dribbling, or if they get lucky, hook them at the exact moment DS hits while they are in the hooking animation. Doesn’t mean it’s worth a damn really. You can also avoid DS by never chasing your obsession and avoiding them all match. 

NOED is a bullshit perk, DS is an even greater bullshit perk. Doesn’t change the fact NOED is bullshit as well. 

Hope is not a direct counter. It’s a soft counter. There are two types of counters : Hard Counters and Soft counters. Hard counters flat out stop it. Soft counters soften the blow, but help.

Dribbling and getting lucky on the hook animation are hard counters to DS. Enduring and Unnerving Presence are soft counters to DS. Getting rid of dull totems is a soft counter as you may not get them all. Getting rid of NOED Hex totem is a hard counter. Hope is a soft counter, it counters the Killers speed boost, but not the instant down. 

Dont be so black and white about counter or no counter. Both have hard and soft counters. Both are bullshit though. 

DS can be on all 4 survs, nothing new here

NOED is not BS. Never use it though. Simply because it's unreliable in my opinion.

Well, you told be about enduring, but you don't accept Hope. welp.
dribbling is no hard counter. It's not stopping DS, it only makes it activate later and is very situational, since you need to be near hook.
And lucky on hook... please, just, don't.... Like getting under rock to avoid being grabbed is counter to camping hook.
rid of all totems = hard counter. Not getting rid of all totems is not an excuse to call it soft-counter. It's like saying pizza with cheese is bad, because if you don't put cheese in pizza with cheese it tastes bad.

Sarief

@SovererignKing said:
Sarief said:

@SovererignKing said:

Besides, like I said, quit dodging the fact YOU as a Killer screwed up and LOST TRACK of your prey in the chase. You still get a small reward for injury by the Survivor having to waste 25 seconds of time healing. 

With perk: you have to tunnel. Then you complain the killer was tunneling. Logic

without perk, killer can avoid tunneling to stall the game and actually hunt survivors like he needs to.

Also, you say that, but survivors are given 3 seconds of sprint burst while killer is halted while he looks at the blade. This mechanic should already tell you that killer is not supposed to always catch someone in chase. Given position of pallets, gyms, corners to hide from LoS, camera position, etc, it should be obvious that survivors have to use it to survive. It should be strategically possible to leave person and go for other prey and have strategic decision. But, alas, as long as there is SC, you must tunnel. or people will just instaheal.

And if you do, people will call you tunneler. And show vids where huntress tunnels people and then complain that NOED is OP, because she suddenly tunneled first person and others were not even hiding or using stealth, just relying on looping.

ridiculous bullshit

Oh come on... I’m not complaining he tunneled. It’s literally the most optimal way to Kill someone. He would have been an idiot to not tunnel him. The fact is that even though he DID tunnel, and it took him roughly 10 minutes to do just that to kill ONE PERSON. If it takes you 10 minutes to hit ONE PERSON 4 times, you are doing something wrong. Most of all if you are a higher tier Killer like Huntress. 

If that had been been other Killers, I’d have understood. 

Normally? yes. But remember you're in autohaven. There are freaking props that bounce you back but not survs. What this means? you physically cannot catch survivor who's running around it. I'd not be surprised if this was that surv. I had seen many loopers, but some of them run exactly with speed of killer.
I was playing doc and meg was running around car 3 steps away from me. Not enough to hit with lunge. So we run until I get closer. 4 ######### circles. Because she was running around it faster then me. And simply decided to drop pallet otherwise I would not be able to ever catch her. And yes, I was running very close to borders, as close as killer can. Some survivors are simply faster than others, what can I say.
No, I believe it's possible not to catch those bastards in 10 minutes because of situations like this.

shootaman777

@Maxi605 said:
Well, there's perks that counter the time of healing, if you nerf self care you need to nerf a ######### ton of killer perks, is fine as it is...

"Well, there's perks that counter the time of healing"
Incorrect. There are no 'perks that counter the time of healing', as there are no perks that counter healing, making a survivor unable to heal at all. Some perks can add a few seconds to healing, but most of those are countered by having half a brain.

"if you nerf self care you need to nerf a ######### ton of killer perks"
Incorrect. If this game were fully, 100% balanced, then taking away something from one side would mean having to compensate by taking away something from the other side. It is not fully, 100% balanced, as is evidenced by Self-Care being broken beyond belief, giving survivors power beyond belief that they would not have if the game were indeed balanced. As-is, nerfing Self-Care would make survivors weaker, but they would still be the power role in this game instead of the killer even without Self-Care.

"is fine as it is"
See the OP of this thread if you're unsure as to why it is NOT "fine as it is".

You're making an assertion with no evidence, on mistaken premises, and completely missing the point of a logical argument.
In a logical argument, you take a position, provide evidence as to why that position is proper, and you work from there.
If you do not take a position with sufficient evidence, then there is no need to prove you wrong, as you have failed to prove yourself to be right. But I addressed what you had to say anyways, because it's common courtesy to respond to someone who's talking to you.

shootaman777

@powerbats said:

@Maxi605 said:
Well, there's perks that counter the time of healing, if you nerf self care you need to nerf a ######### ton of killer perks, is fine as it is...

This Nurses Calling so you know where they're at, Thanatobia for speed decreases, Mangled for debuffs etc.

None of which are particularly useful, as A Nurse's Calling is countered by having half a brain, Thanatophobia is countered by Self-Care, and mangled is a minor inconvenience of a few seconds that is usually temporary so it can be waited out.

shootaman777

@Jack11803 said:
Just make it so it’s not better than getting a heal, but worse. It takes twice the time, but half the people, so it’s the same. It should be 40% speed or maybe a bit slower.

That's exactly what 25% healing speed is. It'll never be faster to Self-Care at 25% speed, than for a 4 survivors to individually heal each other. But, it'll also never be slower, too.

shootaman777

@SadonicShadow said:
There is many ideas as a way to nerf selfcare. I originally proposed that we buff the self care healing speed back to normal and then instead of the selfcare being a complete heal it puts you in a no mither state. You dont drop blood, you still limp and your grunts of pain are heavily reduced and you still go down in one hit. This effectively makes it a good enough heal cobbled together with what you find in the environment until you can get proper medical attention.

In addition to that i would buff the selfcare medkit healing efficiency just enough so that you can get 2 full self heals out of a brown medkit. This in effect encourages players to make trade offs. If you want full self heals without other peoples help you need to bring a medkit.

The problem is, that would pretty much remove Self-Care from the game.
Does it allay some of the concerns of the skeptics of nerfing SC, who complain that when they're last alive they shouldn't have to stay injured because there's nobody left alive to heal them? Yes.
But that also makes Self-Care 100% useless at the high ranks, because it would create a medkit/Franklin's Demise meta, and because Self-Care healing wouldn't provide any worthwhile benefit to high rank play. It'd just become a game of 'stash a medkit early, and go back to it for heals whenever' for people who want to use SC and not rely on fellow survivors. If the medkit is stashed conveniently in center map or close to it, it'll almost always still make going to that medkit a better option that finding more inconveniently placed fellow survivors.

As far as I know, a full medkit heal takes 12 charges, and brown medkits have 16 charges. +50% healing efficiency would make a brown medkit contain 2 full heals.

shootaman777

@Maxi605 said:

@Master said:
Maxi605 said:

Well, there's perks that counter the time of healing, if you nerf self care you need to nerf a ######### ton of killer perks, is fine as it is...

Are you refering to the new clown perk? You can hardly call that a counter

And even nurses calling can be countered, you just heal outside the range

A Nurse's Calling (Doesn't make the time go slower but helps finding survivors healing), Thanatophobia, Clown Perk (however is called) and i asume there's others, As there's ADDONS for killers that do the same with repairing and healing...

@shootaman777 said:

@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self > @shootaman777 said:

Self-Care; In case you're new to DbD and don't know what this perk is:

Self-Care is a perk that allows survivors to heal themselves infinitely with no item, at 50% of the normal healing speed. This means that, as opposed to the 10 second heal from fellow survivors or self-healing with medkits, Self-Care takes a survivor 20 seconds to heal themselves. It is a teachable Claudette Morel perk.

Any DbD player can tell you that this is the single most powerful perk in a survivor's arsenal. This perk is a staple at every rank, and the difference in survivability and capability between having/not having this perk, is immensely large.

Every player has access to this perk, as due to the 2.0 update, each character starts with a perk slot unlocked and all of the specific character's tier 1 perks unlocked. A brand new player has tier 1 Self-Care on their Claudette.

Now that we've got that out the way, here's why it's broken, and what I would do to fix it:

1) Self-Care makes relying on other survivors for heals less efficient than Self-Care healing, and as such makes healing other survivors a waste of time and irrelevant.

-I posted this in DbD Alliance Discord's #dbd-discussions chat, and rather than editing it into a wall-of-text style analysis, I will be leaving it as-is, so that this post is somewhat more interactive.
"
So, just had a thought. Since Self-Care heals at 50% speed, it takes 2x time to heal? 20 seconds as opposed to 10?

So, Self-Care'ing a single survivor takes the same time that it would take for 2 survivors to heal each other in one spot, to heal a single survivor? And that's why it's balanced, because of the healing speed reduction?

Well, if that's the case, then wouldn't 2 survivors Self-Care'ing simultaneously also take 20 seconds for them both to be healed?
Meaning that the supposed downside of Self-Care, the slower healing speed, is not actually a downside (since the Self-Care and regular healing times are the exact same)?
Because on top of not being bound to a fellow survivor/having to search for a fellow survivor/both survivors stuck in the same location during the heals, at least one of the two Self-Care users is completely safe from the killer during this healing, since it is physically impossible for the killer to be in multiple places at the same time.

And now, if we consider that 3 or 4 survivors are injured, the same holds true as above (in terms of inconveniences and lack thereof of the context of SC vs not having SC), and the normal 40 seconds of healing time for each survivor to heal the other, gets reduced to 20 seconds if they all simultaneously heal with Self-Care, twice as fast.

So, isn't Self-Care actually a universal buff to healing speed and efficiency?
"

-How I would solve this problem, is by nerfing the healing speed of Self-Care down to 25% of healing speed, so that Self-Care'ing takes 40 seconds, and as such Self-Care'ing will never be more efficient than finding a fellow survivor to heal oneself. The people who played DbD before Self-Care's recent buff will know exactly how long this will take to heal, since this is more or less the former healing speed of tier 1 Self-Care. The current 20 second heal would become a 40 second heal, effectively making Self-Care a perk for emergency situations, but not something to be abused the hell out of, like it is now.

2) It is as powerful as 4x We'll Make It. 4 survivors healing each other in 5 seconds each, takes 20 seconds. 4 survivors healing themselves with Self-Care at the same time, takes exactly as long.

-If Self-Care is more powerful than 4x We'll Make It, when We'll Make It provides the largest healing speed bonus possible, just imagine by what margin it blows all other healing perks out of the water. Figured I'd mention that.

3) It completely negates a killer power - Freddy's/The Nightmare's

Back when Small Game was an absolute counter to the Trapper because it highlighted his traps with an orange aura within 6 meters (I believe it was 6 meters, but it was so long ago that I'm not entirely certain), it got gutted because of its potential to bully the hell out of the Trapper since Small Game/Saboteur was meta at the time (as well as for the devs to be able to say that there's a perk that finds totems, since totems were new at the time).

How I'd nerf Self-Care in this regard, is to change it so that in a match against Freddy/The Nightmare, Self-Care does NOT give skill checks. At all.

So, what do y'all think?

@jiyeonlee
@yeet
@fuzzyhobo
@Sarief
Apparently, editing proper spacing into the OP got the thread removed, so I'm reposting it here as-was before the edit that removed it. I'm relatively new to these forums, but now I know what NOT to do, at least. Figured I'd @ the people who originally commented on the thread, in case they're still interested.

If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.

@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self > @shootaman777 said:

Self-Care; In case you're new to DbD and don't know what this perk is:

Self-Care is a perk that allows survivors to heal themselves infinitely with no item, at 50% of the normal healing speed. This means that, as opposed to the 10 second heal from fellow survivors or self-healing with medkits, Self-Care takes a survivor 20 seconds to heal themselves. It is a teachable Claudette Morel perk.

Any DbD player can tell you that this is the single most powerful perk in a survivor's arsenal. This perk is a staple at every rank, and the difference in survivability and capability between having/not having this perk, is immensely large.

Every player has access to this perk, as due to the 2.0 update, each character starts with a perk slot unlocked and all of the specific character's tier 1 perks unlocked. A brand new player has tier 1 Self-Care on their Claudette.

Now that we've got that out the way, here's why it's broken, and what I would do to fix it:

1) Self-Care makes relying on other survivors for heals less efficient than Self-Care healing, and as such makes healing other survivors a waste of time and irrelevant.

-I posted this in DbD Alliance Discord's #dbd-discussions chat, and rather than editing it into a wall-of-text style analysis, I will be leaving it as-is, so that this post is somewhat more interactive.
"
So, just had a thought. Since Self-Care heals at 50% speed, it takes 2x time to heal? 20 seconds as opposed to 10?

So, Self-Care'ing a single survivor takes the same time that it would take for 2 survivors to heal each other in one spot, to heal a single survivor? And that's why it's balanced, because of the healing speed reduction?

Well, if that's the case, then wouldn't 2 survivors Self-Care'ing simultaneously also take 20 seconds for them both to be healed?
Meaning that the supposed downside of Self-Care, the slower healing speed, is not actually a downside (since the Self-Care and regular healing times are the exact same)?
Because on top of not being bound to a fellow survivor/having to search for a fellow survivor/both survivors stuck in the same location during the heals, at least one of the two Self-Care users is completely safe from the killer during this healing, since it is physically impossible for the killer to be in multiple places at the same time.

And now, if we consider that 3 or 4 survivors are injured, the same holds true as above (in terms of inconveniences and lack thereof of the context of SC vs not having SC), and the normal 40 seconds of healing time for each survivor to heal the other, gets reduced to 20 seconds if they all simultaneously heal with Self-Care, twice as fast.

So, isn't Self-Care actually a universal buff to healing speed and efficiency?
"

-How I would solve this problem, is by nerfing the healing speed of Self-Care down to 25% of healing speed, so that Self-Care'ing takes 40 seconds, and as such Self-Care'ing will never be more efficient than finding a fellow survivor to heal oneself. The people who played DbD before Self-Care's recent buff will know exactly how long this will take to heal, since this is more or less the former healing speed of tier 1 Self-Care. The current 20 second heal would become a 40 second heal, effectively making Self-Care a perk for emergency situations, but not something to be abused the hell out of, like it is now.

2) It is as powerful as 4x We'll Make It. 4 survivors healing each other in 5 seconds each, takes 20 seconds. 4 survivors healing themselves with Self-Care at the same time, takes exactly as long.

-If Self-Care is more powerful than 4x We'll Make It, when We'll Make It provides the largest healing speed bonus possible, just imagine by what margin it blows all other healing perks out of the water. Figured I'd mention that.

3) It completely negates a killer power - Freddy's/The Nightmare's

Back when Small Game was an absolute counter to the Trapper because it highlighted his traps with an orange aura within 6 meters (I believe it was 6 meters, but it was so long ago that I'm not entirely certain), it got gutted because of its potential to bully the hell out of the Trapper since Small Game/Saboteur was meta at the time (as well as for the devs to be able to say that there's a perk that finds totems, since totems were new at the time).

How I'd nerf Self-Care in this regard, is to change it so that in a match against Freddy/The Nightmare, Self-Care does NOT give skill checks. At all.

So, what do y'all think?

@jiyeonlee
@yeet
@fuzzyhobo
@Sarief
Apparently, editing proper spacing into the OP got the thread removed, so I'm reposting it here as-was before the edit that removed it. I'm relatively new to these forums, but now I know what NOT to do, at least. Figured I'd @ the people who originally commented on the thread, in case they're still interested.

If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.

A Nurse's Calling is a useless and worthless perk if survivors have half a brain and don't heal near the killer. It doesn't counter Self-Care in any way unless the survivor using Self-Care is playing stupidly. In which case, you could use your ears and eyes to tell you that that survivor is healing, and didn't need a perk to do it for you.

Sloppy Butcher gives a 25% healing speed penalty. 25% of the 50% speed that Self-Care has, is 12.5%. So, with Sloppy Butcher survivors Self-Care at 37.5% of the normal healing speed, healing in 26 and 2/3 seconds ((100/37.5)*10=26+2/3). You're telling me that those 6 seconds will entirely counter Self-Care? That's a funny joke.

Coulrophobia gives a 50% healing speed penalty within terror radius. Which is only useful on two maps, since they can be nearly covered in the killer's terror radius - The Game and Haddonmemes. On every other map, it's 100% useless if the survivors have half a brain between them. And on top of that, survivors with the other half of their brain won't be healing within the killer's terror radius in the first place because of A Nurse's Calling.

The mere idea that you'd suggest that a killer has to use 3 perks to counter a single survivor perk, is ludicrous. Doesn't that tell you how insanely powerful Self-Care is, when you suggested having to dedicate 3 perk slots to even slightly start at a counter to it? Because you're forgetting that survivors also have 15 other perks that the killer has to plan accordingly for with that last perk slot you've left them. Every killer perk, since they only have 4, has to be as strong as 4 survivor perks for that killer perk to be balanced and therefore worth using. So, if anything, you're only proving the argument that killer perks are trash, as well as that Self-Care is beyond ridiculously broken.

On top of that, the mangled add-ons you're talking about only have temporary effects. They can be ignored entirely by not healing during the effect.

shootaman777

@Sarief said:

@Shadoureon said:

@Sarief said:

@powerbats said:

@Sarief said:

@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.

you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?

ps: like nurse's calling stops self-care in anyway at high ranks

So because you don't like the otehr sides perks they're cheats rigggghhhttt. So since survivors don't like NOED, RUIN, NURSE's etc that makes them cheats using your logic. The killer might have this perk well that means I need to bring this one and so on. Well then what if it's this killer, well then I need to bring this perk.

Also if you don't think nurses calling doesn't help with sc you're in denial.

1) learn English.
2) I don't like imbalanced perks. you like them? gtfo.
3) killer perks have to change game. Survivor has to adapt. Not the other way around
4) survivors don't like anything
5) NC does not help. Survivors counter it OR survivors use it. It helps only against noobs who heal not under pallet loop. It does not stop/slow/hinder healing in anyway and if you are that close to killer, killer can hear you anyway. it's only useful on wraith, since he hears worse in spirit realm
6) Survivors have perks that counter specific killer = ok. Survivors have perks that counter all killer + specifically counter few killer + change gameplay = cheats. If you don't see this, you're in denial.
7) Noed, ruin = are balanced. Ruin should be buffed, tbh. Had problem with it only once, because killer was laggy af.
8) you didn't refute this point:

you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?

in any way

Talking about someone's English followed by the most atrocious grammar ever...

Also search the definition of cheating.. Using a perk isnt cheating you twat.

you don't know English too, apparently. Since you don't know how to read. I never talked about grammar.
right back at you, twat

May wanna chill there on the insults/name calling, or edit it out. No need to stoop to another's level.

Technically, they are correct. It isn't 'cheating', per se. VOIP SWF, for instance, is cheating, because it's using a 3rd party software to gain an otherwise unobtainable in-game advantage via out-of-game software.
The term you're looking for is 'cheese', 'cheap', 'broken', or anything of the like.
Plus, why are you taking them seriously when they don't even do you the courtesy of reading your full posts and responding to your full posts, only nitpicking tiny inconsistencies?

shootaman777

@Shadoureon said:

@Sarief said:

@powerbats said:

@Sarief said:

@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.

you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?

ps: like nurse's calling stops self-care in anyway at high ranks

So because you don't like the otehr sides perks they're cheats rigggghhhttt. So since survivors don't like NOED, RUIN, NURSE's etc that makes them cheats using your logic. The killer might have this perk well that means I need to bring this one and so on. Well then what if it's this killer, well then I need to bring this perk.

Also if you don't think nurses calling doesn't help with sc you're in denial.

1) learn English.
2) I don't like imbalanced perks. you like them? gtfo.
3) killer perks have to change game. Survivor has to adapt. Not the other way around
4) survivors don't like anything
5) NC does not help. Survivors counter it OR survivors use it. It helps only against noobs who heal not under pallet loop. It does not stop/slow/hinder healing in anyway and if you are that close to killer, killer can hear you anyway. it's only useful on wraith, since he hears worse in spirit realm
6) Survivors have perks that counter specific killer = ok. Survivors have perks that counter all killer + specifically counter few killer + change gameplay = cheats. If you don't see this, you're in denial.
7) Noed, ruin = are balanced. Ruin should be buffed, tbh. Had problem with it only once, because killer was laggy af.
8) you didn't refute this point:

you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?

in any way

Talking about someone's English followed by the most atrocious grammar ever...

Also search the definition of cheating.. Using a perk isnt cheating you twat.

I would request that you keep the topic relevant, don't make things personal, and refrain from personal insult.
If something sounds wrong just from reading it, odds are other people will understand it to be wrong by reading it, and you don't need to make a post that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread to point it out.

shootaman777

@Brady said:
Stop trying to touch Self Care. It's not needing any adjustments, buffs and nerfs, at all.

@shootaman777 said:
You're making an assertion with no evidence, on mistaken premises, and completely missing the point of a logical argument.
In a logical argument, you take a position, provide evidence as to why that position is proper, and you work from there.
If you do not take a position with sufficient evidence, then there is no need to prove you wrong, as you have failed to prove yourself to be right. But I addressed what you had to say anyways, because it's common courtesy to respond to someone who's talking to you.

Granted that I've taken my position with sufficient evidence, the ball's now in your court to prove me wrong by establishing your opposing position with sufficient evidence.
What you've said, is the logical equivalent of 'no u'. It's embarrassing, really, since it means nothing and has no substance to it. As such, the only reaction I can give you is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdFl__NlOpA

Shadoureon

@Sarief said:

@Shadoureon said:

@Sarief said:

@powerbats said:

@Sarief said:

@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.

you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?

ps: like nurse's calling stops self-care in anyway at high ranks

So because you don't like the otehr sides perks they're cheats rigggghhhttt. So since survivors don't like NOED, RUIN, NURSE's etc that makes them cheats using your logic. The killer might have this perk well that means I need to bring this one and so on. Well then what if it's this killer, well then I need to bring this perk.

Also if you don't think nurses calling doesn't help with sc you're in denial.

1) learn English.
2) I don't like imbalanced perks. you like them? gtfo.
3) killer perks have to change game. Survivor has to adapt. Not the other way around
4) survivors don't like anything
5) NC does not help. Survivors counter it OR survivors use it. It helps only against noobs who heal not under pallet loop. It does not stop/slow/hinder healing in anyway and if you are that close to killer, killer can hear you anyway. it's only useful on wraith, since he hears worse in spirit realm
6) Survivors have perks that counter specific killer = ok. Survivors have perks that counter all killer + specifically counter few killer + change gameplay = cheats. If you don't see this, you're in denial.
7) Noed, ruin = are balanced. Ruin should be buffed, tbh. Had problem with it only once, because killer was laggy af.
8) you didn't refute this point:

you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?

in any way

Talking about someone's English followed by the most atrocious grammar ever...

Also search the definition of cheating.. Using a perk isnt cheating you twat.

you don't know English too, apparently. Since you don't know how to read. I never talked about grammar.
right back at you, twat

I never wrote you talked about grammar. I wrote you talked about someone's English AND then follow up with atrocious grammar. Dont talk about someone's lack of English writing and/or understanding if you dont even know how to type it in the first place.

jakeb_1993

I don't think that SC should be removed from the game. Or needs a major debuff for that matter. I can see why killers get frustrated by it, but then again there are things that frustrate survivors that killers do.

I think the key here is not to limit the number of uses but penalise multiple use. The first time you use SC. Runs at standard time. Second: +10%. Third: +25% Fourth: + 50%. Fifth and above: +100%.

I think that strikes a balance. Everyone gets a standard heal. The second is simply a token penalty, but still a penalty. But three and above... That's where it starts to hurt to rely on it. 

RepliCant

Self Care is not broken, and I'll repeat it once more, is not in need of any buffs or nerfs. Maybe even reverse back to the old tiers, but it's not a problem. I'll thoroughly explain, and this is just from personal experience.

1. The biggest concern with self care people seem to have: the risky action of bodyblocking.

People believe that if they nerf self care, or simply don't even have it as a perk, it will end this.

No, it won't, and it certainly hasn't. Any experienced player should not be afraid of being injured without healing yourself with self care. If I'm healthy, I'm still going to through a bodyblock if it's necessary. Guys, there's a perk that even supports it, used with No Mither.... David's perks....

Anyway, what people fail to understand is, if you have one person in your grasp, 3 others bodyblock and you hit them all. You have two options:
Wack them all and potentially lose the hook
Wack one or two, drop, and rinse and repeat. Many Killers have done this when there's a swarm, and it has resulted in many penalties on our end for not expecting the killer to drop and go after the first or second injured bodyblocking guy.

If that does happen: Everybody now has to heal, which is resulting in less generator progress being done (People are dumb and don't gen rush if they're all injured, and if they're all self caring that's 40s~ off a gen, which is about half a generator they missed out on completing. Statistics may be wrong, correct if so, but regardless time they are healing, is time they are NOT doing their objective, which is essentially slowing down the game.)

"Self Care is a crutch"

Okay, I can see your arguments there. It's a very reliant perk, I agree. But so is Hex: Ruin, BBQ, and Nurse's. It's the super meta these days, and none of these perks are in need of a buff or nerf (minus the hex system but that's irrelevant). I mean, can't Survivors have a single perk that IS powerful? It just seems like everything we have as survivors is being totally picked at bit by bit... Utitlize your auditory senses, utilize Nurse's (You can't say Nurse's is trash perk as it doesn't barely work or else it wouldn't be META.)

The survivor was not found while healing for roughly 40s~(?), and yet you say they don't deserve the heal? Why not? You failed to find them even though they are grunting, blood pools, foot steps, grass noises, footstep noises... you still failed. Or even if you lost the chase, they obviously deserve to go on and heal.

And healing is not even a problem to begin with considering over half of the killer options, perks and powers included, OFFER INSTA DOWNS. But hey, healing is the main problem, right? Not the length of gens, length of chases due to loops, but it's the most basic mechanic in the game, right?

Not to mention, if Self Care gets touched, which by the sounds of it if it does it's gonna be a pretty serious nerf, I'll happily run Bond and Leader instead, which means: Faster Heals, Faster gen rushes, and more coordination! Actually hey, maybe you should nerf Self Care. It sounds way more beneficial. No salt, no jokes, I'm okay with Bond being meta and knowing my fellow teammates position nearly 24/7 instead of a simple 40s~(?) heal. By the way, this game is totally playable without perks even at Rank 1 (Not entirely the same for Killers...unless it's Billy or Nurse but it could be a give or take) and I never see much of a difference when I don't bring Self Care, which tells me it's not in need of any changes, but to each their own with ones opinion.

powerbats

@Sarief said:

you don't know English too, apparently. Since you don't know how to read. I never talked about grammar.
right back at you, twat

Oh what's this right here at the top of your post?

@Sarief said:

> 1) learn English.

2) I don't like imbalanced perks. you like them? gtfo.
3) killer perks have to change game. Survivor has to adapt. Not the other way around
4) survivors don't like anything
5) NC does not help. Survivors counter it OR survivors use it. It helps only against noobs who heal not under pallet loop. It does not stop/slow/hinder healing in anyway and if you are that close to killer, killer can hear you anyway. it's only useful on wraith, since he hears worse in spirit realm
6) Survivors have perks that counter specific killer = ok. Survivors have perks that counter all killer + specifically counter few killer + change gameplay = cheats. If you don't see this, you're in denial.
7) Noed, ruin = are balanced. Ruin should be buffed, tbh. Had problem with it only once, because killer was laggy af.
8) you didn't refute this point:

you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?

in any way

powerbats

I believe SC does need the enrf they're talking about so people that run from pallet to pallet and loop to loop don't sit their under the killer healing. Myself along with countless other survivors and killers all agreed this would be a good solution to the problem. It'd stop the silly stopping for 1-2 seconds to heal which we all know you'd never sit in front of the killer doing that ever.

While still allowing it to be useful to say solo queue players or when the killer brings Franklins and or uses Sloppy Butcher. As far as waiting out the healing debuff, it's not that easy always and at ranks 1-5 you can't do that so easily. The killer knows you need to heal and quite often finds some boob trying to ge a few last ticks done ona gen and welp that persons down.

I can't remember how many games have been 4k's all due to some one deciding they didn't want to try and heal through the debuff. But instead tried waiting it out either by hiding while the killer followed the blood trails or went to the most likely spot and downed them.

Just because a perk is meta doesn't mean it's cheating to use it, it just means it's one of the best perks out there for the top tier ranks. After the nerfs/changes other perks started becoming chosen again, Calm Spirit is really nice now. You see more builds going fully stealthy UE, Lithe etc.

Once SC gets to where it should be then it too will fall out of favor for some while others who'll use it properly. Who won't care they can't cheese the killer have no issue with it. The same will be true for killer perks, sme are gaining more favour that never really got used before.

Sarief

@shootaman777 said:

@Sarief said:

@Shadoureon said:

@Sarief said:

@powerbats said:

@Sarief said:

@HellDescent said:
If you say that people use self-care all the time and its op use nurse's calling//sloppy butcher/coulrophobia - problem solved.

you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?

ps: like nurse's calling stops self-care in anyway at high ranks

So because you don't like the otehr sides perks they're cheats rigggghhhttt. So since survivors don't like NOED, RUIN, NURSE's etc that makes them cheats using your logic. The killer might have this perk well that means I need to bring this one and so on. Well then what if it's this killer, well then I need to bring this perk.

Also if you don't think nurses calling doesn't help with sc you're in denial.

1) learn English.
2) I don't like imbalanced perks. you like them? gtfo.
3) killer perks have to change game. Survivor has to adapt. Not the other way around
4) survivors don't like anything
5) NC does not help. Survivors counter it OR survivors use it. It helps only against noobs who heal not under pallet loop. It does not stop/slow/hinder healing in anyway and if you are that close to killer, killer can hear you anyway. it's only useful on wraith, since he hears worse in spirit realm
6) Survivors have perks that counter specific killer = ok. Survivors have perks that counter all killer + specifically counter few killer + change gameplay = cheats. If you don't see this, you're in denial.
7) Noed, ruin = are balanced. Ruin should be buffed, tbh. Had problem with it only once, because killer was laggy af.
8) you didn't refute this point:

you'd think there is a problem if you bring 3 perks to counter 1 perk from survivor. what about other 3 cheat perks?

in any way

Talking about someone's English followed by the most atrocious grammar ever...

Also search the definition of cheating.. Using a perk isnt cheating you twat.

you don't know English too, apparently. Since you don't know how to read. I never talked about grammar.
right back at you, twat

May wanna chill there on the insults/name calling, or edit it out. No need to stoop to another's level.

Technically, they are correct. It isn't 'cheating', per se. VOIP SWF, for instance, is cheating, because it's using a 3rd party software to gain an otherwise unobtainable in-game advantage via out-of-game software.
The term you're looking for is 'cheese', 'cheap', 'broken', or anything of the like.
Plus, why are you taking them seriously when they don't even do you the courtesy of reading your full posts and responding to your full posts, only nitpicking tiny inconsistencies?

you're correct.
well, I mainly respond to see if they have any viable arguments. I'm kinda curious of balance in asymetric genre and what people think is balanced or not. Having constructed arguments is good for that.
Last few posts though were "you seem right, but it's already rebuted. - where? - in the past - where? - in the past"
guess this mine is exhausted for now

ps: the term I was implying is "cheat-like" which is "cheat" in it's short form. The way it brakes balance is beyond simple "imbalanced".
having perk in all top ten used builds and being at the top of use for years just proves it.

powerbats

@Sarief said:

you're correct.
well, I mainly respond to see if they have any viable arguments. I'm kinda curious of balance in asymetric genre and what people think is balanced or not. Having constructed arguments is good for that.
Last few posts though were "you seem right, but it's already rebuted. - where? - in the past - where? - in the past"
guess this mine is exhausted for now

Well considering some of your responses consist solely of insults instead of responding to viable arguments.

ps: the term I was implying is "cheat-like" which is "cheat" in it's short form. The way it brakes balance is beyond simple "imbalanced".
having perk in all top ten used builds and being at the top of use for years just proves it.

If you want to use cheat like because it's used in the top ten builds that negates your argument since both sides have those types of issues. Also all games have meta's where something is in pretty much every top build. In League of Legends TP for pretty much every top laner, for the mid it's now cleanse, Bot lane is always either heal/exhaust or heal/ignite.

For Overwatch the champs chosen are pretty much always the same general ones, for WOW well it's pretty much the same as well. The following page is loaded with Asymetrical games listed and all had/have metas. That doesn't mean that those using them are cheating at all but the met'as sometimes do need adjusting.

Which is something they're working on right now still, exhaustion nerfs to SB type perks, Flashlight saves became harder. The nerf to DS is long overdue and the SC nerf will be welcome as well. The buffs to lesser used perks was nice on both sides.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Asymmetrical_multiplayer_video_games?ved=0ahUKEwiU8rXGl4_dAhWEHHwKHdNGBu0QypMCCCMwKw

Sarief

@powerbats

flashlight saves are still possible on console, where you don't have enough speed with maximum sensitivity on killer.

There is difference between meta and broken.
let's say in WOW, if there are 3 different classes as top = that's meta. If it's more viable to take 3 of the same class instead = that's broken.
Having top 10 essentially be the same perks, shows it's broken. It's broken beyond repair. That's why it's cheat, since with the perk the game is basically easy mode.

I'm not even starting on counters. There are none, provided are "soft counters" at best and can counter only 1 survivor at a time. Cannot counter 2. makes it useless to waste 3 perks to counter 1 out of 16. In asymmetrical it's beyond cheat.

ps: lol, show me where am I solely insulting?

Wolf74

@shootaman777 said:

So, just had a thought. Since Self-Care heals at 50% speed, it takes 2x time to heal? 20 seconds as opposed to 10?

So, Self-Care'ing a single survivor takes the same time that it would take for 2 survivors to heal each other in one spot, to heal a single survivor? And that's why it's balanced, because of the healing speed reduction?

Well, if that's the case, then wouldn't 2 survivors Self-Care'ing simultaneously also take 20 seconds for them both to be healed?
Meaning that the supposed downside of Self-Care, the slower healing speed, is not actually a downside (since the Self-Care and regular healing times are the exact same)?
Because on top of not being bound to a fellow survivor/having to search for a fellow survivor/both survivors stuck in the same location during the heals, at least one of the two Self-Care users is completely safe from the killer during this healing, since it is physically impossible for the killer to be in multiple places at the same time.

And now, if we consider that 3 or 4 survivors are injured, the same holds true as above (in terms of inconveniences and lack thereof of the context of SC vs not having SC), and the normal 40 seconds of healing time for each survivor to heal the other, gets reduced to 20 seconds if they all simultaneously heal with Self-Care, twice as fast.

Pretty good analysis, because it debunks the popular survivor myth "the use of self care benefits the killer".

My main concern about SC is that it is a) self sufficient and b) unlimited.
Why is Unbreakable or Adrenaline only worth 1 or 2 healthstates when SC is unlimited?
Simple solution: give it charges.
Right now people do not bother ever searching teammates for healing, but if they would need to save up their charges, they most likely would. prefer being healed by someone else to save SC for emergencies or when most other teammates are already killed.
1 charge per tier that got used up when you finish healing yourself.
Maybe we could separate this from healing with a Medkit, so that Medkits can be use to save a charge, but than there must be a progression penalty for stopping to use SC (ofc no 100% reset).
That way, player would not be so overconfident to tank a hit.

jiyeonlee

this guy talking like feminists

you never see multi direction in subjects or opposite direction before enter your shits.

please go back to your kindergarten teacher and tell him what you want

jiyeonlee

@Sarief said:

@powerbats said:
The devs could come on here and post data points and yet you'd still claim those data points were wrong. The top ranked killers and survivors could point out the errors in your post yet you'd still claim them to be wrong.

I will answer later, since I'm busy, but this one point I just can't...

Ok, let me show you this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5ZvLlza6IM

18:20

top used perk: self-care
top 10 survivor load-outs = 100% use SC and SB, varying only 3rd and 4th perks.

also, could not find exact stream, but here is discussion from it:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/381210/discussions/0/1700542332320207723/

simply put: 84% of survivors pick the perk.
You also have to remember that not all survs have it when they play. That would be totally different number.

So, now that we're done with stats, do you see that you're wrong on this one?

ps: and YES, they claims were, in fact, wrong!!!

noed have counter? wow.. this is such a circus level of moroness

Sarief

@jiyeonlee said:
noed have counter? wow.. this is such a circus level of moroness

you quote my text without "noed" in it. You respond to phantom text or smth?

shootaman777

@powerbats said:

@yeet said:
healing in general, along with self care, needs changing
it's just too strong

While they need some adjustments you as a killer have tools that help you, it's a refusal to use those tools either at all or effectively that's the biggest issue. The same thing killers say ti survivors complaining about BBQ etc.

The difference is, that the killer has no tools that can counter Self-Care. No perks and no add-ons, nothing that can stop the healing.
The only mechanic that killers have that can counter Self-Care, is tunneling. That only works on one survivor, allowing 3 survivors to heal/repair gens in complete safety to their heart's content. Half of the time, employing this tunneling 'counter' gives all survivors a free win, and the other half of the time it gives every survivor but the one being tunneled a free win. Don't you see the problem with that? Having to give 3/4 to all of the survivors a free win to attempt to counter a single survivor perk? Aren't you just proving that Self-Care is completely broken?
.
Survivors actually DO have the tools to counter BBQ. They have perks that counter it (Lightweight, Sprint Burst). They have mechanics that counter it (staying inside the 40/46/52 meter detection range, moving unpredictably after the aura reading ends to evade the killer if they were outside the detection range).
.
You're comparing apples to oranges.

yeet

@jiyeonlee said:

@Sarief said:

@powerbats said:
The devs could come on here and post data points and yet you'd still claim those data points were wrong. The top ranked killers and survivors could point out the errors in your post yet you'd still claim them to be wrong.

I will answer later, since I'm busy, but this one point I just can't...

Ok, let me show you this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5ZvLlza6IM

18:20

top used perk: self-care
top 10 survivor load-outs = 100% use SC and SB, varying only 3rd and 4th perks.

also, could not find exact stream, but here is discussion from it:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/381210/discussions/0/1700542332320207723/

simply put: 84% of survivors pick the perk.
You also have to remember that not all survs have it when they play. That would be totally different number.

So, now that we're done with stats, do you see that you're wrong on this one?

ps: and YES, they claims were, in fact, wrong!!!

noed have counter? wow.. this is such a circus level of moroness

it does actually its called just cleansing the totems

Shadoureon

@yeet said:

@jiyeonlee said:
noed have counter? wow.. this is such a circus level of moroness

it does actually its called just cleansing the totems

Then Self Care also has a counter its called just hit them into dieing state.

Shadoureon

@shootaman777 said:
Survivors actually DO have the tools to counter BBQ. They have perks that counter it (Lightweight, Sprint Burst). They have mechanics that counter it (staying inside the 40/46/52 meter detection range, moving unpredictably after the aura reading ends to evade the killer if they were outside the detection range).

Lightweight and Sprint Burst are not counters to BBQ, they do not prevent you from beeing seen. The problem with BBQ is the aura reading but that goes for every single perk that applies aura reading wether its for the killer or survivor. Aura reading in my opinion goes against the purpose of this game. You should never be given truesight of your opponent in this game.

Wolf74

@Shadoureon said:

@shootaman777 said:
Survivors actually DO have the tools to counter BBQ. They have perks that counter it (Lightweight, Sprint Burst). They have mechanics that counter it (staying inside the 40/46/52 meter detection range, moving unpredictably after the aura reading ends to evade the killer if they were outside the detection range).

Lightweight and Sprint Burst are not counters to BBQ, they do not prevent you from beeing seen. The problem with BBQ is the aura reading but that goes for every single perk that applies aura reading wether its for the killer or survivor. Aura reading in my opinion goes against the purpose of this game. You should never be given truesight of your opponent in this game.

Which is completely WRONG.
This is a horrorgame about supernatural killer.
Have you ever checked the sourcematerial? Like watched some slasher movies?
Seen how often the killer appear just in time at the right spot?
They are guided by some plotdevices, like what you call "truesight". Like guided by the entity.
This is not kindergarten simulator for playing hide and seek.

Shadoureon

@Wolf74 said:

@Shadoureon said:

@shootaman777 said:
Survivors actually DO have the tools to counter BBQ. They have perks that counter it (Lightweight, Sprint Burst). They have mechanics that counter it (staying inside the 40/46/52 meter detection range, moving unpredictably after the aura reading ends to evade the killer if they were outside the detection range).

Lightweight and Sprint Burst are not counters to BBQ, they do not prevent you from beeing seen. The problem with BBQ is the aura reading but that goes for every single perk that applies aura reading wether its for the killer or survivor. Aura reading in my opinion goes against the purpose of this game. You should never be given truesight of your opponent in this game.

Which is completely WRONG.
This is a horrorgame about supernatural killer.
Have you ever checked the sourcematerial? Like watched some slasher movies?
Seen how often the killer appear just in time at the right spot?
They are guided by some plotdevices, like what you call "truesight". Like guided by the entity.
This is not kindergarten simulator for playing hide and seek.

Ah my bad, I completely forgot that time Meyers saw Laurie threw a wall with a big red aura 60 meters away.

If you were any proper killer you wouldnt need to play hide and seek and actually find people without relying on auras.

shootaman777

@Brady said:
Self Care is not broken, and I'll repeat it once more, is not in need of any buffs or nerfs. Maybe even reverse back to the old tiers, but it's not a problem. I'll thoroughly explain, and this is just from personal experience.

1. The biggest concern with self care people seem to have: the risky action of bodyblocking.

People believe that if they nerf self care, or simply don't even have it as a perk, it will end this.

No, it won't, and it certainly hasn't. Any experienced player should not be afraid of being injured without healing yourself with self care. If I'm healthy, I'm still going to through a bodyblock if it's necessary. Guys, there's a perk that even supports it, used with No Mither.... David's perks....

Anyway, what people fail to understand is, if you have one person in your grasp, 3 others bodyblock and you hit them all. You have two options:
Wack them all and potentially lose the hook
Wack one or two, drop, and rinse and repeat. Many Killers have done this when there's a swarm, and it has resulted in many penalties on our end for not expecting the killer to drop and go after the first or second injured bodyblocking guy.

If that does happen: Everybody now has to heal, which is resulting in less generator progress being done (People are dumb and don't gen rush if they're all injured, and if they're all self caring that's 40s~ off a gen, which is about half a generator they missed out on completing. Statistics may be wrong, correct if so, but regardless time they are healing, is time they are NOT doing their objective, which is essentially slowing down the game.)

"Self Care is a crutch"

Okay, I can see your arguments there. It's a very reliant perk, I agree. But so is Hex: Ruin, BBQ, and Nurse's. It's the super meta these days, and none of these perks are in need of a buff or nerf (minus the hex system but that's irrelevant). I mean, can't Survivors have a single perk that IS powerful? It just seems like everything we have as survivors is being totally picked at bit by bit... Utitlize your auditory senses, utilize Nurse's (You can't say Nurse's is trash perk as it doesn't barely work or else it wouldn't be META.)

The survivor was not found while healing for roughly 40s~(?), and yet you say they don't deserve the heal? Why not? You failed to find them even though they are grunting, blood pools, foot steps, grass noises, footstep noises... you still failed. Or even if you lost the chase, they obviously deserve to go on and heal.

And healing is not even a problem to begin with considering over half of the killer options, perks and powers included, OFFER INSTA DOWNS. But hey, healing is the main problem, right? Not the length of gens, length of chases due to loops, but it's the most basic mechanic in the game, right?

Not to mention, if Self Care gets touched, which by the sounds of it if it does it's gonna be a pretty serious nerf, I'll happily run Bond and Leader instead, which means: Faster Heals, Faster gen rushes, and more coordination! Actually hey, maybe you should nerf Self Care. It sounds way more beneficial. No salt, no jokes, I'm okay with Bond being meta and knowing my fellow teammates position nearly 24/7 instead of a simple 40s~(?) heal. By the way, this game is totally playable without perks even at Rank 1 (Not entirely the same for Killers...unless it's Billy or Nurse but it could be a give or take) and I never see much of a difference when I don't bring Self Care, which tells me it's not in need of any changes, but to each their own with ones opinion.

Talking anecdotally about game balance proves nothing, because too much in anecdotes is dependent on RNG, especially in DbD. Which is why I will addressing your fundamentally flawed claims from the theoretical perspective. I don't need to prove anything, because once again, you've started off with claims that your 'evidence' does not prove to be true, but I'll still address what you had to say as a courtesy to you.

As you say, survivors don't need SC to bodyblock. So its removal/nerf shouldn't impact survivors who want to bodyblock, right? Thanks for furthering my argument.
The problem with your math of bodyblocking on the way to the hook, is that it depends on what stage of travel to the hook the bodyblock is done, and there's too much variance in potential circumstances to be able to discuss effectively, the effectiveness of a bodyblock. Remember, all it takes is one bodyblock to get a survivor off the killer's shoulder in the 'best' case, and in the 'worst' case, even 3 bodyblocking survivors can't save a survivor from being hooked.

If they're all SC'ing, that's not 40 seconds off of gens. It's 20, since they're healing simultaneously. Which is barely enough time for the killer to complete the hooking and get the first survivor found to the first pallet of that chase, after the bodyblock.
On top of that, getting someone off the killer's shoulder buys far more than 20 seconds of time, since we both know that chases go on far longer than 20 seconds, so in actuality, it's not beneficial to the killer to have survivors bodyblocking and Self-Caring, as the survivor main myth seems to declare all the time, since survivors have bought themselves far more than the 20 seconds spent Self-Caring by bodyblocking.
With my suggested nerfed version of Self-Care (25% healing speed), that would be 40 seconds off of gens, and would be relatively manageable for the killer.

Yes, people do genrush through being injured. The fact that I do it on a fairly regular basis, disproves your general statement that nobody does it. That's the thing about anecdotal evidence - it's anecdotal, and doesn't necessarily or definitively prove anything.

I don't recall stating or arguing that Self-Care was a crutch perk. I could be wrong, but if memory serves, that's not a point that I was defending. However, since you've brought it up, I'll address that.
Self-Care is only a crutch if your gameplay relies on it. As you said later in your post, you don't rely on it since running it or not running it has no noticeable effect on the outcome of your matches, so it's not a crutch for you. I applaud you for having a degree of skill that most survivor players don't have, if what you said about your Self-Care usage is true.
However, Hex: Ruin, BBQ & Chili, and A Nurse's Calling are not comparable to Self-Care. I have yet to see anyone on this thread name a single effective counter to Self-Care that doesn't involve throwing the match. However, I can tell you that Hex: Ruin is 100% useless against survivors who have the half a brain necessary to be able to hit great skill checks, and can also be countered by unskilled survivors by breaking the totem. I can tell you that BBQ & Chili can be easily countered by either misdirection when far from the hook, or just by existing close to it. A Nurse's Calling has a few more of the hallmarks of being a crutch, in that it does something for a killer that they could do by using their eyes and ears. Well, not their ears, since audio occlusion is not functioning properly at the moment. But it also has a simple and effective counter - not healing near the killer.
You can't talk about Ruin needing/not needing a buff then in the same breath say that the hex system (upon which Hex: Ruin is based) needing a rework is irrelevant to the subject of Hex: Ruin. It's very contradictory, and only disproves your point.
Also, just because a perk is meta and does/doesn't need a buff on one side, does not mean that the meta perks on the other side do/don't need buffs. As I've said already, if the game were 100% balanced (which is isn't), that may be the case. However, the game is not 100% balanced, so your argument holds no weight.
While I would agree that BBQ & Chili doesn't need a nerf or buff (since even when it doesn't reveal survivors' auras, it still helps the killer make the informed choice on the decision whether or not to camp), and that A Nurse's Calling is in a decent place since it's pretty much a crutch that wastes the perk slot of someone with eyes for not much gain, I would definitely say that Hex: Ruin needs a buff.
The reason that these perks are meta and effective at high ranks for killers, is because most high-ranked survivors are quite bad at the game. I've already explained the simple, easy, and effective counters to each of these perks, but that doesn't mean that the majority of high-ranked survivors will use them. I speak in the context of theoretical effectiveness when things are used to their greatest potential. The difference between Self-Care and the high-rank killer meta, is that the high-rank killer meta is easily counterable to the point of being a joke, whereas the high-rank survivor meta offers no counterplay if used effectively.

What you seem to be missing here about survivor perks vs killer perks, is that killers have 4 perks, whereas survivors have a collective 16 perks. Meaning that, for a killer perk to be balanced, it has to be 4x as strong as a survivor perk. Theoretically, a survivor's strongest balanced perk should be 1/4 as effective as a balanced killer perk. Most killer perks aren't even as effective as a single powerful survivor perk, which just goes to show you how pathetically weak killer perks are. Every meta killer perk is easily, simply, and effectively countered by basic survivor game mechanics, to the point where survivors don't even need a perk to counter every one of the killer's perks with minimal effort.
So, that you'd say 'Can't survivors have a single perk that IS powerful' just shows your entitlement, lack of interest in keeping the game balanced, and lack of knowledge about game balance. Survivors are not supposed to be the power role. They're not even supposed to be mechanically powerful (even though they are), so why should they have powerful perks (by your contextual definition of 'powerful perks', which are 'perks that can single-handedly make the match a nightmare for the killer and remove any risk/threat/challenge from the match for a survivor' (since those are the survivor perks that have been on the chopping block as of late (exhaustion perks, DS, Self-Care, Borrowed Time, etc)))? They shouldn't. And if you've read this far through my post, you'll understand that that's because of basic theoretical game balance, not because of a desire to make killers 'overpowered'.

'Everything you have as survivors is being picked at bit by bit'? Last I recall, stealth is a survivor's most effective tool, and the devs have buffed perks like Urban Evasion, and Whispers is on the chopping block, to make stealth more effective. The most effective tool survivors have isn't being picked at bit by bit, so I don't know where you'd be under the impression that everything you have is being picked at, because it clearly isn't.

"The survivor was not found while healing for roughly 40s~(?), and yet you say they don't deserve the heal? Why not? You failed to find them even though they are grunting, blood pools, foot steps, grass noises, footstep noises... you still failed. Or even if you lost the chase, they obviously deserve to go on and heal."
First off, a heal is never deserved. To think otherwise is purely and simply entitlement.
Secondly, it's 20 seconds, not 40 seconds.
Third, the groaning/footsteps/grass noises are irrelevant since audio occlusion is bugged and the killer can't hear any of that unless they have direct line of sight on a survivor (in which case those things were all irrelevant (yes, you can hear them while playing survivor, but if you've played any killer at all recently (which it would seem that you haven't), you'll know that those sounds don't exist when playing killer)), and the blood trails can be mitigated by using that same grass to cover them up.
Fourth, my argument had to deal with the increased efficiency of overall healing when multiple survivors simultaneously use Self-Care, which this part of your response has nothing to do with. You're using a strawman and deflecting to a point that I wasn't defending.
And on top of that, all of this is nothing but your opinion backed by nothing but your experiences. You're not even attempting to think of game balance in any sense but how you see it to be now.

"And healing is not even a problem to begin with considering over half of the killer options, perks and powers included, OFFER INSTA DOWNS. But hey, healing is the main problem, right? Not the length of gens, length of chases due to loops, but it's the most basic mechanic in the game, right?"

All of these insta-downs come with their respective counters and drawbacks. Hex: Devour Hope is a totem perk, so the totem can be broken, or the survivor in question being unhooked can be unhooked before the killer left the area of the hook, and the killer won't gain a token. Hex: NoED is easily countered by breaking all the unlit totems across the map. The new Hex perk is countered by not breaking either of the two lit totems of it. Myers' EWt3 insta-down comes with a lengthy charge time during which he is completely ineffective and non-threatening, also coming with the drawback of being Myers and not having any tools to counter looping in his kit. Leatherface also comes with the same drawback. The Hillbilly's insta-down is also limited by charge time, and is on the devs' nerf chopping block.

I didn't say that anything in particular was the main problem of the game. Those other things are some honourable mentions, but we're talking about Self-Care here, and I'd appreciate it if you kept your replies on-topic, and the topic is Self-Care.

I'll repeat it once more; Self-Care is broken, and you or anyone else still has yet to prove otherwise.

mcNuggets

@shootaman777 said:

@Brady said:
Self Care is not broken, and I'll repeat it once more, is not in need of any buffs or nerfs. Maybe even reverse back to the old tiers, but it's not a problem. I'll thoroughly explain, and this is just from personal experience.

1. The biggest concern with self care people seem to have: the risky action of bodyblocking.

People believe that if they nerf self care, or simply don't even have it as a perk, it will end this.

No, it won't, and it certainly hasn't. Any experienced player should not be afraid of being injured without healing yourself with self care. If I'm healthy, I'm still going to through a bodyblock if it's necessary. Guys, there's a perk that even supports it, used with No Mither.... David's perks....

Anyway, what people fail to understand is, if you have one person in your grasp, 3 others bodyblock and you hit them all. You have two options:
Wack them all and potentially lose the hook
Wack one or two, drop, and rinse and repeat. Many Killers have done this when there's a swarm, and it has resulted in many penalties on our end for not expecting the killer to drop and go after the first or second injured bodyblocking guy.

If that does happen: Everybody now has to heal, which is resulting in less generator progress being done (People are dumb and don't gen rush if they're all injured, and if they're all self caring that's 40s~ off a gen, which is about half a generator they missed out on completing. Statistics may be wrong, correct if so, but regardless time they are healing, is time they are NOT doing their objective, which is essentially slowing down the game.)

"Self Care is a crutch"

Okay, I can see your arguments there. It's a very reliant perk, I agree. But so is Hex: Ruin, BBQ, and Nurse's. It's the super meta these days, and none of these perks are in need of a buff or nerf (minus the hex system but that's irrelevant). I mean, can't Survivors have a single perk that IS powerful? It just seems like everything we have as survivors is being totally picked at bit by bit... Utitlize your auditory senses, utilize Nurse's (You can't say Nurse's is trash perk as it doesn't barely work or else it wouldn't be META.)

The survivor was not found while healing for roughly 40s~(?), and yet you say they don't deserve the heal? Why not? You failed to find them even though they are grunting, blood pools, foot steps, grass noises, footstep noises... you still failed. Or even if you lost the chase, they obviously deserve to go on and heal.

And healing is not even a problem to begin with considering over half of the killer options, perks and powers included, OFFER INSTA DOWNS. But hey, healing is the main problem, right? Not the length of gens, length of chases due to loops, but it's the most basic mechanic in the game, right?

Not to mention, if Self Care gets touched, which by the sounds of it if it does it's gonna be a pretty serious nerf, I'll happily run Bond and Leader instead, which means: Faster Heals, Faster gen rushes, and more coordination! Actually hey, maybe you should nerf Self Care. It sounds way more beneficial. No salt, no jokes, I'm okay with Bond being meta and knowing my fellow teammates position nearly 24/7 instead of a simple 40s~(?) heal. By the way, this game is totally playable without perks even at Rank 1 (Not entirely the same for Killers...unless it's Billy or Nurse but it could be a give or take) and I never see much of a difference when I don't bring Self Care, which tells me it's not in need of any changes, but to each their own with ones opinion.

Talking anecdotally about game balance proves nothing, because too much in anecdotes is dependent on RNG, especially in DbD. Which is why I will addressing your fundamentally flawed claims from the theoretical perspective. I don't need to prove anything, because once again, you've started off with claims that your 'evidence' does not prove to be true, but I'll still address what you had to say as a courtesy to you.

As you say, survivors don't need SC to bodyblock. So its removal/nerf shouldn't impact survivors who want to bodyblock, right? Thanks for furthering my argument.
The problem with your math of bodyblocking on the way to the hook, is that it depends on what stage of travel to the hook the bodyblock is done, and there's too much variance in potential circumstances to be able to discuss effectively, the effectiveness of a bodyblock. Remember, all it takes is one bodyblock to get a survivor off the killer's shoulder in the 'best' case, and in the 'worst' case, even 3 bodyblocking survivors can't save a survivor from being hooked.

If they're all SC'ing, that's not 40 seconds off of gens. It's 20, since they're healing simultaneously. Which is barely enough time for the killer to complete the hooking and get the first survivor found to the first pallet of that chase, after the bodyblock.
On top of that, getting someone off the killer's shoulder buys far more than 20 seconds of time, since we both know that chases go on far longer than 20 seconds, so in actuality, it's not beneficial to the killer to have survivors bodyblocking and Self-Caring, as the survivor main myth seems to declare all the time, since survivors have bought themselves far more than the 20 seconds spent Self-Caring by bodyblocking.
With my suggested nerfed version of Self-Care (25% healing speed), that would be 40 seconds off of gens, and would be relatively manageable for the killer.

Yes, people do genrush through being injured. The fact that I do it on a fairly regular basis, disproves your general statement that nobody does it. That's the thing about anecdotal evidence - it's anecdotal, and doesn't necessarily or definitively prove anything.

I don't recall stating or arguing that Self-Care was a crutch perk. I could be wrong, but if memory serves, that's not a point that I was defending. However, since you've brought it up, I'll address that.
Self-Care is only a crutch if your gameplay relies on it. As you said later in your post, you don't rely on it since running it or not running it has no noticeable effect on the outcome of your matches, so it's not a crutch for you. I applaud you for having a degree of skill that most survivor players don't have, if what you said about your Self-Care usage is true.
However, Hex: Ruin, BBQ & Chili, and A Nurse's Calling are not comparable to Self-Care. I have yet to see anyone on this thread name a single effective counter to Self-Care that doesn't involve throwing the match. However, I can tell you that Hex: Ruin is 100% useless against survivors who have the half a brain necessary to be able to hit great skill checks, and can also be countered by unskilled survivors by breaking the totem. I can tell you that BBQ & Chili can be easily countered by either misdirection when far from the hook, or just by existing close to it. A Nurse's Calling has a few more of the hallmarks of being a crutch, in that it does something for a killer that they could do by using their eyes and ears. Well, not their ears, since audio occlusion is not functioning properly at the moment. But it also has a simple and effective counter - not healing near the killer.
You can't talk about Ruin needing/not needing a buff then in the same breath say that the hex system (upon which Hex: Ruin is based) needing a rework is irrelevant to the subject of Hex: Ruin. It's very contradictory, and only disproves your point.
Also, just because a perk is meta and does/doesn't need a buff on one side, does not mean that the meta perks on the other side do/don't need buffs. As I've said already, if the game were 100% balanced (which is isn't), that may be the case. However, the game is not 100% balanced, so your argument holds no weight.
While I would agree that BBQ & Chili doesn't need a nerf or buff (since even when it doesn't reveal survivors' auras, it still helps the killer make the informed choice on the decision whether or not to camp), and that A Nurse's Calling is in a decent place since it's pretty much a crutch that wastes the perk slot of someone with eyes for not much gain, I would definitely say that Hex: Ruin needs a buff.
The reason that these perks are meta and effective at high ranks for killers, is because most high-ranked survivors are quite bad at the game. I've already explained the simple, easy, and effective counters to each of these perks, but that doesn't mean that the majority of high-ranked survivors will use them. I speak in the context of theoretical effectiveness when things are used to their greatest potential. The difference between Self-Care and the high-rank killer meta, is that the high-rank killer meta is easily counterable to the point of being a joke, whereas the high-rank survivor meta offers no counterplay if used effectively.

What you seem to be missing here about survivor perks vs killer perks, is that killers have 4 perks, whereas survivors have a collective 16 perks. Meaning that, for a killer perk to be balanced, it has to be 4x as strong as a survivor perk. Theoretically, a survivor's strongest balanced perk should be 1/4 as effective as a balanced killer perk. Most killer perks aren't even as effective as a single powerful survivor perk, which just goes to show you how pathetically weak killer perks are. Every meta killer perk is easily, simply, and effectively countered by basic survivor game mechanics, to the point where survivors don't even need a perk to counter every one of the killer's perks with minimal effort.
So, that you'd say 'Can't survivors have a single perk that IS powerful' just shows your entitlement, lack of interest in keeping the game balanced, and lack of knowledge about game balance. Survivors are not supposed to be the power role. They're not even supposed to be mechanically powerful (even though they are), so why should they have powerful perks (by your contextual definition of 'powerful perks', which are 'perks that can single-handedly make the match a nightmare for the killer and remove any risk/threat/challenge from the match for a survivor' (since those are the survivor perks that have been on the chopping block as of late (exhaustion perks, DS, Self-Care, Borrowed Time, etc)))? They shouldn't. And if you've read this far through my post, you'll understand that that's because of basic theoretical game balance, not because of a desire to make killers 'overpowered'.

'Everything you have as survivors is being picked at bit by bit'? Last I recall, stealth is a survivor's most effective tool, and the devs have buffed perks like Urban Evasion, and Whispers is on the chopping block, to make stealth more effective. The most effective tool survivors have isn't being picked at bit by bit, so I don't know where you'd be under the impression that everything you have is being picked at, because it clearly isn't.

"The survivor was not found while healing for roughly 40s~(?), and yet you say they don't deserve the heal? Why not? You failed to find them even though they are grunting, blood pools, foot steps, grass noises, footstep noises... you still failed. Or even if you lost the chase, they obviously deserve to go on and heal."
First off, a heal is never deserved. To think otherwise is purely and simply entitlement.
Secondly, it's 20 seconds, not 40 seconds.
Third, the groaning/footsteps/grass noises are irrelevant since audio occlusion is bugged and the killer can't hear any of that unless they have direct line of sight on a survivor (in which case those things were all irrelevant (yes, you can hear them while playing survivor, but if you've played any killer at all recently (which it would seem that you haven't), you'll know that those sounds don't exist when playing killer)), and the blood trails can be mitigated by using that same grass to cover them up.
Fourth, my argument had to deal with the increased efficiency of overall healing when multiple survivors simultaneously use Self-Care, which this part of your response has nothing to do with. You're using a strawman and deflecting to a point that I wasn't defending.
And on top of that, all of this is nothing but your opinion backed by nothing but your experiences. You're not even attempting to think of game balance in any sense but how you see it to be now.

"And healing is not even a problem to begin with considering over half of the killer options, perks and powers included, OFFER INSTA DOWNS. But hey, healing is the main problem, right? Not the length of gens, length of chases due to loops, but it's the most basic mechanic in the game, right?"

All of these insta-downs come with their respective counters and drawbacks. Hex: Devour Hope is a totem perk, so the totem can be broken, or the survivor in question being unhooked can be unhooked before the killer left the area of the hook, and the killer won't gain a token. Hex: NoED is easily countered by breaking all the unlit totems across the map. The new Hex perk is countered by not breaking either of the two lit totems of it. Myers' EWt3 insta-down comes with a lengthy charge time during which he is completely ineffective and non-threatening, also coming with the drawback of being Myers and not having any tools to counter looping in his kit. Leatherface also comes with the same drawback. The Hillbilly's insta-down is also limited by charge time, and is on the devs' nerf chopping block.

I didn't say that anything in particular was the main problem of the game. Those other things are some honourable mentions, but we're talking about Self-Care here, and I'd appreciate it if you kept your replies on-topic, and the topic is Self-Care.

I'll repeat it once more; Self-Care is broken, and you or anyone else still has yet to prove otherwise.

I completely agree, but once again the dbd devs are listening to toxic survivor mains.
So it isn't going to get nerfed anytime soon sadly.

CoolAKn

@SadonicShadow said:
There is many ideas as a way to nerf selfcare. I originally proposed that we buff the self care healing speed back to normal and then instead of the selfcare being a complete heal it puts you in a no mither state. You dont drop blood, you still limp and your grunts of pain are heavily reduced and you still go down in one hit. This effectively makes it a good enough heal cobbled together with what you find in the environment until you can get proper medical attention.

In addition to that i would buff the selfcare medkit healing efficiency just enough so that you can get 2 full self heals out of a brown medkit. This in effect encourages players to make trade offs. If you want full self heals without other peoples help you need to bring a medkit.

Intriguing concept, like an EMT attempting to prevent the injury from getting worse until a medical professional is able to treat the injury (in this game, other survivors). It would be strong enough to stop the bleed out timer, but not enough to fully heal yourself. Similar idea to recover, where under normal circumstances, you cannot fully do it by yourself. Self-Heal with a Med-Kit would still allow you to fully heal yourself.

powerbats

@mcNuggets said:

I completely agree, but once again the dbd devs are listening to toxic survivor mains.
So it isn't going to get nerfed anytime soon sadly.

Yep they're listening to toxic survivor mains argument again when clearly that's not the case. Just like with the SB nerfs where some killer mains used that excuse. The devs have stated they want to get it done right, oh look they're caving to toxic survivor mains again.

SB nerf comes through, well they didn't enrf it hard enough despite getting what was asked for. DS nerf same argument used by some killer mains toxic survivor mains and review bombs will keep them from doing it. Ds nerf is hitting with this patch.

RepliCant

@powerbats said:

@mcNuggets said:

I completely agree, but once again the dbd devs are listening to toxic survivor mains.
So it isn't going to get nerfed anytime soon sadly.

Yep they're listening to toxic survivor mains argument again when clearly that's not the case. Just like with the SB nerfs where some killer mains used that excuse. The devs have stated they want to get it done right, oh look they're caving to toxic survivor mains again.

SB nerf comes through, well they didn't enrf it hard enough despite getting what was asked for. DS nerf same argument used by some killer mains toxic survivor mains and review bombs will keep them from doing it. Ds nerf is hitting with this patch.

Hey, that's not the case at all. SB needed a nerf, DS should be removed, alot of these things are agreed upon. You just so happen to listen to the minority who act "salty" and "toxic" the most. I think the majority do on this forum.

Anyways, my point ultimately, was to say healing is not the problem, although may looking like it, it just isn't. Ihe main problems are gens & chases in this game. I just think people are masking the broken core with saying most perks are unbalanced.

powerbats

@Brady said:

@powerbats said:

@mcNuggets said:

I completely agree, but once again the dbd devs are listening to toxic survivor mains.
So it isn't going to get nerfed anytime soon sadly.

Yep they're listening to toxic survivor mains argument again when clearly that's not the case. Just like with the SB nerfs where some killer mains used that excuse. The devs have stated they want to get it done right, oh look they're caving to toxic survivor mains again.

SB nerf comes through, well they didn't enrf it hard enough despite getting what was asked for. DS nerf same argument used by some killer mains toxic survivor mains and review bombs will keep them from doing it. Ds nerf is hitting with this patch.

Hey, that's not the case at all. SB needed a nerf, DS should be removed, alot of these things are agreed upon. You just so happen to listen to the minority who act "salty" and "toxic" the most. I think the majority do on this forum.

Anyways, my point ultimately, was to say healing is not the problem, although may looking like it, it just isn't. Ihe main problems are gens & chases in this game. I just think people are masking the broken core with saying most perks are unbalanced.

They did need a nerf yet some on the killer side used every excuse and insult under the sun to say why they weren't happening. I agree with DS, perhaps not being removed but it definitely needed a nerf. I only pointed out the salty minority because the person i responded to was from said minority.

The issue with SC isn't the heal itself since it can be negated to an extent but with people abusing it healing 2 feet from killer on other side of pallet/window. Yet the vocal minority complains that it needs to be removed from the game.They basically want no healing at all not even medkits if they're completely honest.

The changes to it that I and others proposed that if it gets stopped it resets are a good balance yet to the minority they'll get what they want no more heals in front of killer then still complain it's broken.

DocFabron

I don't think Self Care needs a nerf. DS and SB are what need nerfs. Thankfully, we can be kissing DS goodbye with this upcoming patch, and hopefully we can get a better nerf to SB (exhaustion change was unnecessary imo). Getting cheesed out of a hit because someone tapped the run button is quite stupid.

I consider those 2 perks to be more of a burden. Self Care doesn't bother me, I'm very hard to escape anyway

powerbats

@Doc_W__HOLLIDAY said:
I don't think Self Care needs a nerf. DS and SB are what need nerfs. Thankfully, we can be kissing DS goodbye with this upcoming patch, and hopefully we can get a better nerf to SB (exhaustion change was unnecessary imo). Getting cheesed out of a hit because someone tapped the run button is quite stupid.

I consider those 2 perks to be more of a burden. Self Care doesn't bother me, I'm very hard to escape anyway

As you always say.

DarkWo1f997

Being a 100% killer only player. I disagree. Sloppy butcher exists for a reason, if anything it makes it easier for me. 

jmaximo93

They did need a nerf yet some on the killer side used every excuse and insult under the sun to say why they weren't happening. I agree with DS, perhaps not being removed but it definitely needed a nerf. I only pointed out the salty minority because the person i responded to was from said minority.

The issue with SC isn't the heal itself since it can be negated to an extent but with people abusing it healing 2 feet from killer on other side of pallet/window. Yet the vocal minority complains that it needs to be removed from the game.They basically want no healing at all not even medkits if they're completely honest.

The changes to it that I and others proposed that if it gets stopped it resets are a good balance yet to the minority they'll get what they want no more heals in front of killer then still complain it's broken.

The way I see it is that, if almost everyone is running it, it needs to be reviewed. I run SC on PS4 all the time and it's my favorite skill. I also notice that most survivors on PS4 these days run it as well. I think the best solution, and one that won't push off the survivors would be like you and many others have said, have it reset if you stop. It would still be a useful skill, but against a killer with NC (especially now that it is in the shrine) it would be a bigger challenge.
The main problem I see is that the same killers that always say or post images of the Doctor saying "Git Gud" are the ones always complaining that killers are underpowered. Any time a survivor has any complaint (look at any balance forum posted by a survivor) the amount of "git gud" replies is depressing. Don't get me wrong, there are killers that will post valid counter arguments but those are the minority. I feel like in game, survivors are the toxic ones, but out of game it's the killers that are toxic.
I know I'm about to get spammed saying that I'm full of crap and I need to git gud so go ahead

Bravo0413

I really believe that the progress should regress when not healing and regress faster while running.. that would be a proper nerf.. 

ShrimpTwiggs

My idea to change it is a little out there. I would have the survivor running self-care start off with a certain amount of times they can use it, depending on the level of the perk, and they can "recharge" it by performing altruistic actions like unhooks or healing others. There are probably better ways to nerf it, but I thought I'd throw in my thoughts.

Wolf74

@ShrimpTwiggs said:
My idea to change it is a little out there. I would have the survivor running self-care start off with a certain amount of times they can use it, depending on the level of the perk, and they can "recharge" it by performing altruistic actions like unhooks or healing others. There are probably better ways to nerf it, but I thought I'd throw in my thoughts.

Charges are a good idea… but why should survivor be able to REcharge them?
Serious… compare it to any other perk that will "heal" you… like Unbreakable.

ShrimpTwiggs

@Wolf74 said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:
My idea to change it is a little out there. I would have the survivor running self-care start off with a certain amount of times they can use it, depending on the level of the perk, and they can "recharge" it by performing altruistic actions like unhooks or healing others. There are probably better ways to nerf it, but I thought I'd throw in my thoughts.

Charges are a good idea… but why should survivor be able to REcharge them?
Serious… compare it to any other perk that will "heal" you… like Unbreakable.

I wanted the perk to encourage a more altruistic play style. That way, you benefit the other survivors as well as yourself. Just a thought though.

Wolf74

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Wolf74 said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:
My idea to change it is a little out there. I would have the survivor running self-care start off with a certain amount of times they can use it, depending on the level of the perk, and they can "recharge" it by performing altruistic actions like unhooks or healing others. There are probably better ways to nerf it, but I thought I'd throw in my thoughts.

Charges are a good idea… but why should survivor be able to REcharge them?
Serious… compare it to any other perk that will "heal" you… like Unbreakable.

I wanted the perk to encourage a more altruistic play style. That way, you benefit the other survivors as well as yourself. Just a thought though.

Why should a perk that you pick to be self sufficient encourage any altruistic play style?

ShrimpTwiggs

@Wolf74 said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Wolf74 said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:
My idea to change it is a little out there. I would have the survivor running self-care start off with a certain amount of times they can use it, depending on the level of the perk, and they can "recharge" it by performing altruistic actions like unhooks or healing others. There are probably better ways to nerf it, but I thought I'd throw in my thoughts.

Charges are a good idea… but why should survivor be able to REcharge them?
Serious… compare it to any other perk that will "heal" you… like Unbreakable.

I wanted the perk to encourage a more altruistic play style. That way, you benefit the other survivors as well as yourself. Just a thought though.

Why should a perk that you pick to be self sufficient encourage any altruistic play style?

Because helping others gives you the ability to continue being self-sufficient once you heal yourself a certain amount of times. That's why I included charges originally. You can heal yourself a certain number of times, but if you wish to keep using it, you have to earn it. Kind of like Deliverance. That perk is used to help sustain yourself, but in order to balance it out, you have to do something first. It rewards helping others as well as gives you the ability to help yourself. Being self-sufficient doesn't mean that the perk shouldn't reward you for helping others.

Wolf74

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Wolf74 said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Wolf74 said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:
My idea to change it is a little out there. I would have the survivor running self-care start off with a certain amount of times they can use it, depending on the level of the perk, and they can "recharge" it by performing altruistic actions like unhooks or healing others. There are probably better ways to nerf it, but I thought I'd throw in my thoughts.

Charges are a good idea… but why should survivor be able to REcharge them?
Serious… compare it to any other perk that will "heal" you… like Unbreakable.

I wanted the perk to encourage a more altruistic play style. That way, you benefit the other survivors as well as yourself. Just a thought though.

Why should a perk that you pick to be self sufficient encourage any altruistic play style?

Because helping others gives you the ability to continue being self-sufficient once you heal yourself a certain amount of times. That's why I included charges originally. You can heal yourself a certain number of times, but if you wish to keep using it, you have to earn it. Kind of like Deliverance. That perk is used to help sustain yourself, but in order to balance it out, you have to do something first. It rewards helping others as well as gives you the ability to help yourself. Being self-sufficient doesn't mean that the perk shouldn't reward you for helping others.

Just give it a limited number of heals, done.
Why should survivor get more extra chances on top of all their extra chances?
If someone is able to heal himself 3 times per match, he should be running out of luck.

ShrimpTwiggs

@Wolf74 said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Wolf74 said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Wolf74 said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:
My idea to change it is a little out there. I would have the survivor running self-care start off with a certain amount of times they can use it, depending on the level of the perk, and they can "recharge" it by performing altruistic actions like unhooks or healing others. There are probably better ways to nerf it, but I thought I'd throw in my thoughts.

Charges are a good idea… but why should survivor be able to REcharge them?
Serious… compare it to any other perk that will "heal" you… like Unbreakable.

I wanted the perk to encourage a more altruistic play style. That way, you benefit the other survivors as well as yourself. Just a thought though.

Why should a perk that you pick to be self sufficient encourage any altruistic play style?

Because helping others gives you the ability to continue being self-sufficient once you heal yourself a certain amount of times. That's why I included charges originally. You can heal yourself a certain number of times, but if you wish to keep using it, you have to earn it. Kind of like Deliverance. That perk is used to help sustain yourself, but in order to balance it out, you have to do something first. It rewards helping others as well as gives you the ability to help yourself. Being self-sufficient doesn't mean that the perk shouldn't reward you for helping others.

Just give it a limited number of heals, done.
Why should survivor get more extra chances on top of all their extra chances?
If someone is able to heal himself 3 times per match, he should be running out of luck.

Fair point.

powerbats

@Wolf74 said:

Just give it a limited number of heals, done.
Why should survivor get more extra chances on top of all their extra chances?
If someone is able to heal himself 3 times per match, he should be running out of luck.

Why should a survivor be punished because you as a killer decided to tunnel them the entire match? He shouldn't be running out of luck because you're a tunneling killer. What if they're the obsession then, well they're going to need to be able to heal more than 3x probably.

Oh but just take a medkit, well that works right up until the moment the killer hits you and you find out they've got Franklins.Oh and they also are using Sloppy Butcher so even if you manage to lose them occasionally well you're just screwed. All because 1 killer can't handle you having a perk that does what it's supposed to do.

It heals at a reduced rate compared to a normal medkit which can still be negated to an extent by Nurses Calling, Thanatobia, Stridor etc. If the nerf that resets progress goes through then you shouldn't have any complaints.

They're already increasing healing time for self Care as it is and they're not going to remove it from the game.

RepliCant

@jmaximo93 said:
They did need a nerf yet some on the killer side used every excuse and insult under the sun to say why they weren't happening. I agree with DS, perhaps not being removed but it definitely needed a nerf. I only pointed out the salty minority because the person i responded to was from said minority.

The issue with SC isn't the heal itself since it can be negated to an extent but with people abusing it healing 2 feet from killer on other side of pallet/window. Yet the vocal minority complains that it needs to be removed from the game.They basically want no healing at all not even medkits if they're completely honest.

The changes to it that I and others proposed that if it gets stopped it resets are a good balance yet to the minority they'll get what they want no more heals in front of killer then still complain it's broken.

The way I see it is that, if almost everyone is running it, it needs to be reviewed. I run SC on PS4 all the time and it's my favorite skill. I also notice that most survivors on PS4 these days run it as well. I think the best solution, and one that won't push off the survivors would be like you and many others have said, have it reset if you stop. It would still be a useful skill, but against a killer with NC (especially now that it is in the shrine) it would be a bigger challenge.
The main problem I see is that the same killers that always say or post images of the Doctor saying "Git Gud" are the ones always complaining that killers are underpowered. Any time a survivor has any complaint (look at any balance forum posted by a survivor) the amount of "git gud" replies is depressing. Don't get me wrong, there are killers that will post valid counter arguments but those are the minority. I feel like in game, survivors are the toxic ones, but out of game it's the killers that are toxic.
I know I'm about to get spammed saying that I'm full of crap and I need to git gud so go ahead

They tested it out already with the progression reset mechanic and found it distasteful (It's in one of them Q&As) I can't be certain, but they didn't feel like it was "the right fix". Could be wrong but regardless it's been tested and results were it didn't go through to even PTB.

Yeah I know what you mean, it can be hard to have a decent dicussion around here.