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Rare opinion: Spirit is actually balanced.
Although it's a rare opinion, please hear me out on this. People believe that spirit is unbalanced and I have some arguments for what they're offering. Let's see my side of perspective as a hybrid player:
1. 50/50 mindgames. Basically when she sits still and you don't know if she's phasing or not. I've managed to counter that by simply one perk: spine chill. You know when she'll start phasing because your spine chill will go off, meaning she doesn't know your exact position but knows that you are in a certain radius. Game knowledge helps with this too, alongside the spirit's gameplay. If I know that when she stands still she's phasing then I know that she doesn't mindgame and vise versa.
2. Unable to see where she's coming from because she's invisible. That's the point. Her whole purpose as a character is being invisible, this shouldn't be changed at all!
3. If you have good headphones and stridor you basically win. That's entirely incorrect. When I play spirit I can't use stridor. It confuses the ######### out of me when someone doesn't have iron will. Besides, learning the exact distance is really tough.
4. Spirit can't be looped like any other killer which breaks the game. You mean like nurse? Nurse also can't be looped normally and the only way to counter her are jukes and breaking line of sight, just like how spirit is countered.
So what do you guys think about the spirit? Let me know down below.
Comments
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IMO you shouldn't need a perk to fix a major issue with her power.
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she gives no feedback for survivors to work with, that the issue
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her power dont have a ,,issue"
Spirit is balanced.
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Simple game knowledge helps too, but I do doubt what you just said. There are oceans of perks that counter certain killers and playstiles and if you think about it, this mindgame can't be used by every single spirit, some do that. If you want to be sure that you'll have an advantage then pick it. If not then don't!
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Technically she shouldn't. She should be all about mindgames. Also it does give info whilst not being in a chase, so I don't see the problem here tbh
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- A perk shouldn't be necessary to beat a killer.
- I agree
- Not entirely incorrect, just hard to learn. Stridor really isnt even needed tbh.
- And nurse also breaks the game, which is why she is broken, like spirit.
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The perk isn't necessary but it is recommendable. It also doesn't beat the killer it just weaken her. Having extreme game knowledge also help.
Lastly because both of them break the game, they are hard to learn and master. Nurse and spirit player require precision. They are good killers because they are reworded when they predict and use game knowledge to win.
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IMO you shouldn't be able to bring a single perk to fully counter a killer's power.
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How does Nurse break the game?
She adds another level of gameplay, a different level.
Sorry you can't loop her mindlessly around a pallet 3 times then drop it and proceed to the next.
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That's a big brain talking.
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IMO I agree, but what perk are you talking about and what killer?
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lol
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I think she's balanced too, but she is kinda OP without Iron will, but then again, all killers feel OP if you don't run Iron will.
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I disagree. For skins I dunno I don't have any cosmetics on her. But having good headphones doesn't make you a god spirit. A good survivor knows when and how to mindgame and can make spirit pretty tilted. Trust me I know.
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One thing that Tru3 brought up recently which I agree with - remember when survivor mains used to complain because Spirit had collision? Now collision has been removed, they're still complaining about her. What more do they want?
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If you need a certain perk just to counter a killer, it's not very balanced.
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I specifically said two other ways you can counter her. Spine chill and iron will just give you a bigger boost.
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But you shouldn't be able to fully counter a killer at the same time. If had a way to just deny the killer's power, that wouldn't be balanced either.
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I'm not going to argue on it, all I'm saying is she is far from balanced.
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Which ones? Her animation has a lot of clues when she uses her power so I'm pretty sure you don't have a skin which removes all of them.
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I agree with you. Unfortunately, most players (including a few prominent streamers) think it is ok for survivors to be able to run loops that the killer can do nothing about. Spirit is true 50/50s, which is fairly common in most video games. Survivors don't like it when a killer can actually make them guess because the same old loops don't work the same way.
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I'm talking about Iron Will. Because her power relies almost entirely on sounds this perk counters her power almost entirely. Spirits use Stridor because IW is used so often and it forces you to just guess where the survivor is if you aren't bringing Stridor.
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Her animation "bugs" are too visible and 99% I can see them. Train your eyes. I play on low settings, maybe it helps, idk.
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the only time u can perform agaisnt her decently is if u have an ansti spirit build like spinechill/iron will/lythe/dance with me and those kind of perks (that most of them) are only usefull agaisnt her. or if the spirit is just awful.- if the spirit is good like really good i hope u are playing in a 4 man with the most efficient player in existence otherwise gg because chases are extremely short due "mindgames" that are not even mindgames, because u cant even work with spirit mindgames like u can do with other killers with telltales or capabilties, in her case she just dissapear and u have no clue what is she gonna do u just can try to do something and maybe just maybe will work, very unfun and unreliable.
as survivor if she is good, u are just gonna get "outplayed" almost every time it doesnt matter how much u try to juke if she is good unless u bring an specific perk to work agaisnt it wich is lame.
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Didnt calm spirit used to completely nullify docs power? Must be hard times for doc. :/
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Nah, Doc had illusions and shock stun on survivors. Back in the days, if I remember correctly, Calm Spirit only helped against crows.
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Yea but then they changed it so the suvirvors wont scream if shocked 100% of the time.
So the doc was able to shoc the but they dont scream or give any notification. (They still had to snap out of madness 3)
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The one thing i would change about spirit is a clear visual indicator when she's using her power.
There is a bug with her currently that makes her kind of sparkling when she is using her power so something like that would be great.
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Tho she shouldn't :/
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Why shouldn't she?
Survivors have absolutely no information about what she's doing in a chase against her at all.
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Nope,he/she is kinda right.There's currently a bug with spirit that lets her whole body sparkle when using her power.
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Well you got one thing right, this is a rare opinion. LOL
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There’s no interaction for survivors which is what most of the complaining is about. You talk about 50/50 mind games but it’s not that simple. For the spirit player it is a mindgame but the survivor has close to no visual or audio cues to let them know.
I highly recommend checking both Scott Jinx’s and OhTofu’s videos on spirit because while some of the stuff has been addressed there’s still more that could be done to make it more fair.
tl;dr I think spirits power is fine, but it provides close to no interaction for the survivors which deprives them of any participation in mind games and turns their choices just into 50/50 which is awful
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I run spine chill almost always (cause I hate ghostfaces), but spine chill helps me almost exactly zero of the time when I'm in a chase with spirit. She doesn't have a 50/50 MiNd gAmE. It's literally just guesses. And if she has stridor then it's about another zero percent chance you will win that guess, being as she has taken out her end of the guess work. In the chase though you have to determine if she even is phasing or not. I feel really "outplayed" when I had not one indicator of ######### she's doing lol.
Side note, using point 4 with the Nurse is probably not good, seeing as she is the number 1 strongest killer in the game lmao.
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I agree.
The people saying "no counter play" just don't think when they get chased by a Spirit. You have to be creative and understand her power to beat her. I kill so many survivors with Spirit just because they make super potato moves that you would NEVER make against any other killer. It's like survivors' brains just leak out their ear when it's a Spirit.
Furthermore people like to say "just get a good headset". Well if you wanna be a good Huntress just put some clear tape on your TV and use a red sharpie to draw a crosshair. BOOM! Instantly a good Huntress. Not to mention the massive hatchet hitbox, and Iri Head. I could play Devil's Advocate and argue that Huntress doesn't really take all that much skill. Of course she DOES and I believe she does, but for all the "Spriit doesn't take skill/just get a headset" arguments I could make the SAME ARGUMENTS for Huntress or really any killer. Case and point, if you play with a mouse you should have near perfect aim. IDC what you say, a mouse makes aiming INSANELY easy. Again, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here.
I really can't wait for cross play to be a thing. I'm pretty positive that there are more good anti-Spirit players on Xbox then there are on PC because with Nurse and Huntress being WAY harder on console a lot of the top killers use Spirit instead. There was a period before her update that I swear every other game was a Spirit. Every time I watch a PC streamer or Youtuber they get the worst survivors as Spirit. The last 3 or so videos of one particular person who always says Spirit has no counters, he gets the absolute DUMBEST survivors man. Like I wish I could get survivors this dumb when I'm Spirit because when I play Spirit it feels like most survivors are literally sitting next to me watching what I'm doing. And I don't consider myself a God tier killer, but I've been playing rank 1 for a while and I'm pretty good, especially at Spirit who I consider my main. I doubt that I'm just "bad" at Spirit more that the survivors I get at rank 1 actually know what the ######### to do. So when cross play comes out all these people saying "Spirit easy just get a headset" on PC hopefully get demolished by these 4 stacks that all know how to run from a Spirit.
And here are some simple tips:
- Iron Will
- Spine Chill
- Use windows instead of pallets.
- Don't camp pallets, drop them early instead.
- Back track once you break LOS of the husk.
- Walk when you have enough distance and don't go the predictable path of to a pallet/window.
- DON'T VAULT THE PALLET IF SHE IS STANDING STILL!
- Running from tile to tile (similar to what you might do against Hag or Nurse) is better than trying to loop any particular tile.
- If you are playing with friends, have them muddy your tracks or make noise to make it harder to track you while she phases.
- If on a corn maps or any map with tall grass AVOID THAT ######### at all costs. Run between the rows, not across the rows.
- Stop assuming she is unbeatable. She's not. Thinking that way you lost before you even tried. She can only do a finite number of things while phasing. Realize what they are and do what would counter all of them (and the stand still trick) the best. Usually you have at least 2 valid options to extend the chase. Some are safe some are risks. Be unpredictable and just ######### TRY!
Just because you have +5k hours doesn't mean you are good at running from Spirit. She takes a certain play style and skill set to beat, and it doesn't match with other killers.
Post edited by thesuicidefox on5 -
1) She's not supposed to have any tell.
2) I'd hardly call that a "good discussion". Scott has been heavily biased towards Spirit since she came out. He claims "just buy a good headset". Well to play Devil's Advocate, if you wanna be a good Huntress just put clear tape on your TV and draw a crosshair with a red sharpie. Use a mouse with good DPI. Literally all you need to have great aim with Huntress as her hatchet hitboxes are the size of trains. If he can make such a lame argument to claim Spirit is OP I can use equally lame arguments to say Huntress is OP. Sorry I don't buy it, not when I see survivors run from Spirit just fine. GOOD Spirits too.
I don't get why people quote Scott Jund and Tofu like their word is law. Just because you have 5k hours doesn't make you perfect at everything. Hell I know high level tournament players for certain games that suck at certain things. M2K of Smash Brothers fame is notoriously bad against low tiers or off meta characters/play styles because he is a very mathematical/formulaic type of player. When you throw him a curve ball he struggles to hit it. Yet he is still one of the best players IN THE WORLD in several Smash games. Just because these guys play a lot and are pretty good at the game doesn't mean they actually understand how to run from Spirit.
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spinechill isnt the fix. If she stands still at a pallet EFFIN RUN!!!!! dont vault back over it or try to be fancy just move on to the next tile AWAY from her don't give her distance take it away . Shes either phasing or shes not so instead of messing with her just RUN!!!!!!
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there isn't supposed to be feedback from her. if you are unsure of what she is doing RUN!!!! youre not going to win every chase with her. use the first couple chases to feel out the person controlling her. Is she trying predict your movements. is she a standstill gamer?? Learn and ADAPT. you can do it.
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It is pretty bias because he's already a strong player when he plays a strong killer of course he will dominate. He 4k like 40 games in a row as speed limiter Bubba, so when he plays a strong killer it's gonna seem like she's OP. I've also noticed that for all the games he's posted on his YT of him playing Spirit are against complete potatoes. They make stupid decision after stupid decision, which is actually a very normal thing against Spirit. So when he's a good killer that almost never gets a good survivor against his Spirit it will seem like she's OP. Ironically the only video he posted where he lost as Spirit was I think his very first one, he had no perks no add-ons and got completely dominated on Ward (which is IMO her worst map, especially before they changed the pallets in the main building). Which is understandable why he lost, I didn't expect him to win, but to have a video like that and still say she's OP. It just doesn't make sense to me. Even if he had perks I'm sure he would have struggled that game (though this was back during old Ruin times so it's anyone's guess).
Additionally, Deathslinger has very much a old Legiony feel to him in that once you get speared there is nothing you can do. Yet he doesn't mention anything about that. It's not nearly as bad as old Legion but it's pretty bad when you get hit no matter what you do.
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She does give info when out of chase. Personally I think giving info in chase too is an overkill.
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Yes, the spirit should rely on audio because scratch marks are inconsistent as #########. You need another way of understanding where they are. If you think that when you "buy good headphones you win with spirit" it only tells me that you haven't played spirit, or maybe killer, whatsoever :/
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I've seen those.
The first video was from November, before Spirit got changed. She's arguably weaker now that she has no collision, Prayer Beads were nerfed, and Ruin was changed. So it's less valid now than when it was made.
And again, he has a video of him getting 40 4k's in a row with speed limiter Bubba. So yes it's entirely possible he got all potatoes in a 2 hour period because only potatoes would lose to a speed limiter Bubba. I've had streaks of just bad red rank survivors for the entire time I sat and played killer. Both these points pretty much invalidate the first video.
As for the second, he makes good points but it's all theoretical. Even on True's end and I don't agree with True on a lot either. He's not as good as explaining his points as Scott and some of the stuff he said I was like "uhhh what". Theorycraft isn't evidence either, for any side.
I've seen survivors outplay a Spirit consistently. Both as killer and survivor I've seen it. It can be done, so I just can't buy into this nerf Spirit hype. Yes, old Prayer Beads were dumb I always said they were. But she isn't as unbeatable as people say. She just isn't. I've seen people outplay good Spirits. It's rare, as most survivors go full potato against her, but it can be done.
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Because it's different. Relying on audio isn't as easy and brainless as it sounds, you should know if you play spirit. I've played her much as my fav killer to both play and face and I can safely say that there are some obvious counters (btw I don't run iron will, I believe that even if everyone thinks it's her only counter, it's simply not). Jukes are jukes, with headphones or without headphones. Doubling back, revaulting the same window to get distance (the best mindgame imo), walking away, pretending to go to a pallet but instead walk away from it ect.
What you suggest is: let's make spirit f tier. She's so unbalanced that she should be thrown to the garbage can.
I'll remind you something btw, remember when survivors said that when they'll remove collision from spirit then they'll be ok with her? I do. Did they keep their word? Well.....
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Ok why not, if they really want to. But I'll be honest what you suggest cannot be done. Even if we lose (odds are we will cuz he is indeed a good killer) your arguments won't be logical. Think of this: if I tell you to vs the top nurse player to prove your jukes and you don't, will you say that nurse is still unbalanced? If I tell you to vs the best bubba in the game to show ur reflexes, and u die, would this suggest that bubba is op?
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I've seen what he wrote and his videos dude. I've commented under a lot of them.
"1. The majority of his spirit videos series has to do with information and lack of reactivity- not ruin, not prayer beads, and a few points on collision in his "theorycraft.""
I was saying the back and forth between him and True was theorycraft (more on True's side, Scott was just replying to that). I wasn't calling his entire argument theorycraft.
As far as "information and lack of reactivity" that's how a 50/50 works. It's a thing in other games you either need be good at reading your opponent (because no person can be completely randoms they will follow patterns), or you need to avoid putting yourself in those situations.
Additionally you don't need the information to avoid her you need to deny her the information she needs to find you. Breaking LOS of the husk, walking when appropriate, following unusual pathing. If you throw her off your trail and then bolt for the next loop you can keep the chase going for a long time. And that's the problem rather than try to actively deny her information people insist on needing information to counter play her.
"2. You're countering your own point. Previously you said that Scott is so good that he can get 40 straight 4ks with speed limiter bubba, so that would make him unstoppable on spirit. Now you're blaming it on 40 straight games of potatoes. Near impossible statistically speaking."
It's a bit of both though.
First he is such a strong player that it almost doesn't matter what he plays, he will win most of the time. Therefore him playing 2 hours of Spirit, against anyone, is going to result in that.
Second, you can see these survivors make massive mistakes. Often. I see it all the time myself. It's why the stand still trick even works because survivors do something stupid. Scott does it and always goes something like "LOL outplayed kappa" when it was actually just the survivor making a really dumb decision. We also don't know how much of them were solo or SWF as that can make a huge difference.
So when you combine these factors I doubt Scott would ever lose as Spirit with perks/add-ons. If he had a series of video of him playing against survivors that rarely make a mistake, as with survivors I've seen regularly on Xbox against Spirit then it would be a bit different and I'm sure he would have to actually try more to win.
"3. Theorycraft. It was a respomse for people who post these kind of tips:"
There's no theorycraft there. This is the stuff I've seen people do. Theory craft is like the back and forth between Scott and True where they are giving in depth examples of things that may or may not happen. My tips aren't that. "Use windows instead of pallets" isn't theory craft. Windows are better tools against the Spirit than pallets. I can't tell you how many times I catch survivors that try to camp or loop a pallet, but then struggle against survivors that know how to run from window to window. And I've used this tactic myself against Spirits and it works. It's not my theory crafting, it WORKS in practice, from both points of view in my experiences.
"4. I've seen gm overwatch players destroy aimbot users. It's rare, but it can be done. This logic is not valid."
By rare I mean that most survivors make stupid decisions. It's RARE to get a survivor that doesn't make stupid decision or use lame tricks to try and beat a Spirit. They use completely valid tactics that anyone can do but the problem is MOST survivors don't actually think about what they are doing. Whereas beating an aimbotter takes a significant amount of skill BEYOND what is normally necessary. They just think they should do some random whacky thing but then it fails, they get caught and call foul. Spirit only has a finite number of things she can do while phasing, if you know what that is and the pick a tactic that would counter all or most of that the best you can outplay her consistently. Yes, sometimes it's a 50/50 and you just have to pick one and cross your fingers but those actual instances are rare.
Like really, if you see a Spirit standing still do a fake like you are going to run in one direction, change directions and bolt to another tile. Chances are she will use 2-3 seconds of phase to track and lose you, then will only have 2-3 seconds to chase you to the next tile and unless she had MDR or Amulet she won't have enough to make it and you will gain distance on her. Yes that's a bit of theory craft but it's pretty consistent in practice so long as you have those options available. I'm being vague on purpose to avoid theory crafting. It's about baiting her and then finding an opportunity to just bolt to a new loop.
I just don't buy any of it. Sorry I don't. I've seen good Spirits get outplayed consistently by certain survivors. I've been seriously outplayed by some of those survivors. Like I said I don't consider myself a God tier killer but I'm not a bad killer either. I have Astro a50's and I can hear everything but when chase music is BLARING and there are other noises it's not all that hard to lose track of a slippery survivor.
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If you don't recall the 4th statement then I doubt you play the game long, or being in the forums for all I know. I also doubt you play spirit with these statements. Correct me if I'm wrong but, if you think mastering spirit is that easy, you probably are the best spirit Eu or something :/
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Can we see ghosts IRL? Sometimes, usually just swamp gas.
Can we hear ghosts IRL? Sometimes.
Do they kill people IRL? Rarely, usually just swamp gas, its very common in the desert.
Is it terrifying for me to play against? Yes.
Is it fun as heckin heck? Hell yeah it is.
Do I want her to mori me because it gives me chub? Absolutely, that could just be desert swamp gas talking though.
Prayer beads already got nerfed and so did her vault animation, now she ain't as scary, and her vault is a goblin hop that induces laughter. She used to make people guess, it was a mind game the killer was in charge of, if they knew what they were doing. You don't need spinechill or iron will, just run. Run to the pallet, sit there a sec, then run away to a window, works 75% of the time.
Because the killer can't afford to chase you forever, you need to waste as much time as possible. A dedicated chase however, against a killer like Spirit or Nurse, will never last forver, but with Deadhard, BT, and unbreakables on your team, you can make a chase last long enough for 3 gens to get done if your team is smart, and since they will be forced to slug or proxy camp because of that, BT and unbreakable comepletely destroy them, its sad really, image 4 good loopers, they don't even need to be SWF, just have common sense.
LOS blockers and windows are your friends in the chase against spirit, nurse now too because she cant tap the blink button to go through simple windows or walls anymore because of some bug. (unless it is intentional, in which case BHVR I beg you please reconsider.) (Banshee skin for Nurse when?)
Nurse was nerfed to the ground with a CD. She was the absolute most balanced killer without addons before her everything was reworked. Omega blink still can rock socks, but only if you land those damn blinks, otherwise its dead blink zones, and just dead blinks, with 75% ground vision and a CD on top of it. I honestly rarely see spirit, so I don't know why she gets so much flak. I've seen Spirit and Billy maybe once in 2 weeks, 1 leatherface, 4 doctors, 10 huntresses, 2 trappers, 3 ghostfaces, 1 mikey, 1 pig, no freddies, 1 clown (I have a childhood hatred for Clowns so the Clown can get deleted for all I care) 1 legion, and no nurses (Please play nurse for the love of god and bring a mori. I want her to choke me) And not one of those Huntresses had Iri heads either. Starting to believe them Iri posts to just be bandwaggon spam.
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Posting videos isn't a viable strategy tbh. You're exaggerating imo. We give you tips on how to counter spirit and your arguments kinda are "this videos is the only factor that can change my mind, their word is law". It's not 75/25 mindgame its 50/50, it's not 99/1 it's maybe more of a 75/25. Spirit isn't unbalanced, she has counterplay.
"What do I do when I have no L walls or T walls close to me?" What do you do with every killer if a vault doesn't exist? Your scenario is being in the middle of nowhere.
"Literally all the same critiques and useless counter arguments pre-rework when devs said spirit was over performing. And the collision, vault animation, and post phase speed changes didn't do much to address these design flaws." That's exactly what the survivor mains wanted to be reworked, the devs listened when the surv mains said "we want these and then we'll be ok with spirit" honestly I don't know why you guys want more. Might as well delete spirit from the game. Having strong killers is a good thing, wish some people knew about that. Why do you want to literally destroy spirit instead of buffing clown for example? The devs gave you what the surv mains wanted, and now they're hungry for more. Might as well make spirit completely visible while phasing and delete all audio, whilst replacing her sword with a stick, that way the surv mains will be happy :)
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I would also want to tbh
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