Freddy And Demogorgon Disparities Reveal What's Wrong With The Game
Freddy and Demogorgon share quite a bit of similarity they both feature a teleportation ability, have multiple facets to their power, and very strong synergy with certain perks. Yet despite their similarities, Freddy is regarded as a top tier Meta killer while Demo is seen as low tier at best and bottom tier at worst. Many players chalk that up to Demo just having bad design and weak add-ons but I believe it is this dramatic deviation that reveals the current problem with DBD’s balancing
Why do players dislike Demogorgon? No matter what the individual complaints it will always boil down to his portal system and the root problems coming out of it. The demo is all about the set-up having portals set up at key points in a map, maintaining pressure and mobility. Despite how much of a time-saver they should be and can be keeping them set up wastes a lot of valuable time. You have to place two portals, go through one to activate the chain and all of this involves extensive backtracking. In a meta that revolves around micro-managing every second and capitalizing on any pressure, you can make this invested time could mean the difference between a win or a loss. So if the investments fail to garner any substantial success, It can be very frustrating.
Now after all this criticism you might be wondering why I said he wasn't bad earlier. You see it is because the Demo IS a strong killer his Shred has a huge skill-ceiling both in mind gaming and mechanical skill and knowhow. His portal system is also a strong system that when built up grants him a huge mobility advantage. Because you see the fault lies not with Demo but the current gameplay sandbox and meta for both sides. Demo's kit is balanced around a sandbox where the game goes slower where there are breaks in the pacing for both sides to gather, refocus, and assess the current situation. But in this current sandbox, the killer player is always forced to be on the move, not waste any unnecessary time and capitalize on any pressure available a Demo spending time on setting up his portal network could watch several generators pop into life before he's even finished and when he leaves he's very likely to hear one or more of his active portals disappear before he's finished his current chase. In a slower-paced sandbox, a portal would serve as intended as both valuable mobility and a stalling option, a way of locating survivors, and not feel like a chore to set up. And it is despite all of his compatibility issues with this sandbox that I see Demo in a different light
But now let's take a look at Demo's cousin if you will, Freddy
Freddy is the Swiss Army Knife of killers, combining the strengths of multiple killer archetypes yet having none of their weaknesses. He's partially a trap killer but unlike Trapper and Hag he gets all his traps immediately, doesn't have to enter animation to deploy them, he's also a chase killer in the lieu of Clown but he doesn't slow down when using his power and doesn't have to reload his Snares are completely and utterly disposable and can be stacked on top of each other, yet he also possesses high mobility with his generator teleport that gets stronger as the game gets into the later stages. The only caveat is that there is a signal that shows when you are teleporting but when factoring in gen tech teleport its more often than not, a benefit. Did I also mention he can completely counter Borrowed Time, has additional funkiness in regards to sleep and awake states, a funky TR, the second smallest killer in the game, survivors face drawbacks for waking up too much, and a whole bunch more?
The survivors can rip Demo's portals up all day long but every time they wake up against Freddy it gets harder and harder to wake up requires them to reveal their presence and can regress generators/healing by default. And it is partially a reason why the sandbox has gotten so out of hand. BHVR has been at work changing the totem systems, introducing and reworking new maps that often have a feature of being partially killer-sided, pallet quantity nerfs, perk nerfs, item and addon nerfs. Despite how necessary and beneficial many of these changes have been when you add all this together with killers such as Freddy, Oni, Spirit, it has done nothing but force survivors to end the game quicker
Back in the day when survivors had access to strong and forgiving perks, add-ons, and pallets they could afford to waste time. 1 or 2 survivors could hard-carry their team with their looping skills but now things are quite different. There's very little room for error now on both sides if the killer gets a snowball together survivor teams can quickly fall apart as the chasers can no longer buy those extra few seconds and the weaker links no longer have that extra forgiveness. Likewise, if the survivors get that early gen pressure going, spread out, and keep the killer off-balance its incredibly difficult for him to recover and gain pressure over the game when the generators are popping left and right. They no longer have that extra forgiveness from survivors healing, looting, or being interested in a chase. Both sides are now in a complete TIME-CRUNCH Meta where one can rarely waste time anymore. Because of this balanced and set-up killers such as Demogorgon suffer because they are in a sandbox which is anything but briskly paced and balanced.
My Conclusion: Its no longer just a Killer or Survivor balancing issue only it's now a fundamental flaw equally shared between both sides. Killer designs such as Freddy are a large part of the problem because survivors can no longer risk assuming the killer they are facing isn't going to be playing the meta, and killers can't assume survivors aren't either. For every Demo that gets wrecked by a meta time-crunch squad, there's a sweaty time-crunch Mori Oni wrecking a survivor squad at the same time. There is no easy answer to the problem at hand, unfortunately (from my current perspective at least)
Increasing the generator times and pace of the game would result in killers such as Freddy running rampant and utterly breaking the game for survivors, yet under this current system killers such as Demo are being more and more forced out by the current time restrictions. What's worse is this flaw is starting to crack the foundation of the game, the game has always been about the chase but now it's becoming about time-crunch. Survivors and killers no longer have the time to enjoy the chase, because they have to go right back into it immediately. There are no pauses, no lasting victory there's none of it until either the killer or survivors win. DBD must strike a balance between game pace, killer and survivor balancing, oppressive killer kits, pallet and loop strength, as well as the current shifts we've seen in kits on both sides
Because while this sandbox won't kill the game by any means. The longer this sandbox continues the greater the divide and toxicity within the killer and survivor population will become. As well as the chance of the current sand-box and its design decisions becoming semi-permanent
TLDR: Freddy is an over-tweaked beefy killer who along with Oni and Spirit are part of the reason the Time-Crunch meta has become so overwhelming for both sides. While Demo is an example of a good killer that rarely gets to shine due to a severe lack of time available in a match for setting up along with other facets. The Time-Crunch meta must be addressed from the perspective of both Killer and Survivor
Comments
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You lost me. Fix your post. I was a quarter way through because you essentially repeated yourself. And I don't feel like delving through to find out where it continues.
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Hahahaha demo is op?
Not even reading this.
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Probably why they decided to put time saving into pyramid head. If a killer can't slaughter in a chase like spirit, Freddy, and doc then they need something to slow down or speed up something these days. I mean heck spirit, Freddy, and doc aren't exactly missing that either. Killers like demo simply aren't worthwhile because instead of excelling at speeding something up their powers eat up time. I mean look at poor demo freddy has none of the setup AND teleports in a snap after an animation he can walk in instead of being stuck in a stationary animation followed by whooshes. Poor demo has nothing going for him lets be honest.
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Except the difference is that Freddy's teleport goes away when there's no Gens to port to. His snares can only get him so far, he's essentially just an M1 Killer with blood lust. Demo can close gaps quickly with his shred. Demo is a good Killer, fun to play, you just don't see it often.
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Mmm nah, sure losing it after all gens sucks but it's not like demo is going to be able to use them for much then either given a door can open before it comes off cool. Demo is the dream killer to face as survivor, his kill rates nearly zero against me especially when playing as a swf against him. Survivors aura reading on portals along with his long animation giving away utterly where he's going before the crawl out animation even starts and survivors can dodge shred more easily than a hatchet, pretty sure hatchets actually have a larger hitbox as far as dodging them goes. I do it often enough. Have more trouble with clowns. That's not even going into all his audio ques meaning you don't even have to look at hin to know what he's doing and where. Easiest killer to loop without los in the world, makes it difficult for him to mindgame. He's definitely the weakest killer vs coms.
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Sounds like whatever Demos you go against then aren't Demo mains. Portal placement is everything based on the map and is a slow set-up similar to Trapper. Shred in itself is the mind game. When Survivors are running to the next tile, Demo will typically open up for a Shred. Obviously if you're a good Demo, you'll note when a Survivor is looking at you while they run. If you notice that, you feign a shred to get them to juke themselves where you close back up and hit them with a basic. No different than Death Slinger aiming his rifle. The only thing that legit sucks is his stomping.
If Demo is a dream killer to face as a Survivor, it's definitely because he's a rare killer who is fun to play against. But most teams I've gone against with Demo, I usually end with a 4k with 2k being my minimum.
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You didn't have to read the first paragraph, its said in the header of the original post.
However you do substantiate my secondary point about the community turning into over-tense stress balls, so you have my thanks on this
I understand where you are coming from but I believe the repetition I left in the OP is vital to the core message I was trying to put out
Edit: I would like to apologize I understand now what you meant. It appears I accidentally put multiple copies of the same paragraphs within the post. It must have occured when I pasted the segments from Word and did not catch it. I've gone through and corrected the mistakes
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The real issue is killers like freddy are where killers need to be..demo has a good foundation but too many holes in each of his powers
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This exactly.
What really epitomizes what's wrong with DBD is survivors using the veiled term "boring" or "overpowered" for killers they suck against, or rather, refuse to learn to go against properly.
It's like someone else said in another thread, survivors don't want to go against good killers. They just want to feel like they do. Get good.
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Making the claim that the survivor playerbase as a whole just wants easy games and the killer population as this paragon of wanting a balanced game is a bit biased to say the least. Its emotional opinion based statements like this that cause so much difficulty in getting any decent argument off the ground
Both sides have a casual selfish minority that want to win games just because of their role. There are survivors that just want to be like the youtubers and bully and there are killers that want the game to be a walking simulator
It doesn't matter how many of them there are what matters is the discussion at hand. Not the boogeymen but the actual players the people talking in the thread themselves, I mean come on guys. Individual players are more then just what they play they aren't a hivemind
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Yes Exactly His portals are meant to be time savers but they are sluggish, feel horrible to use and are very situational really needing addons. His shred is basic and you need to run an addon for it to be good
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Pretty much..plus his power is mediocre as a chasing power,/ cant even use it at circular loops to shorten them
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I would say Shred is one of the killer powers I don't have a problem not putting on an add-on. The extra bit of recovery forgiveness can be rather helpful within a chase or even using it as a way to get around
But I find his portal add-ons to be much more effective, even if the gameplay pace does pose a challenge for them. The right combination of addons on a map can make them very powerful
I mean Shred is a really slept on killer ability it adds a whole new layer to the way you chase
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Now I actually see why Fred is top tier. He literary able to do everything without get into animations, from snare to teleport, he always keep him mobile. He can eventually chase a survivor to a gen direction then teleport to that gen for surprise element, without any audio cue (like Hag)
But not just that, his sleep mechanic is super cheap in many situation, auto speed debuff, spotting survivor hiding in grass because of glowing effect, immune to BT
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Okay, people, do you seriously not understand how powerful Demo's portals actually are?
His portals has the potential to give off some of the best map awareness of any killer ever. That is something Freddy can't do, he isn't even notified of where the Alarm Clocks are so he could patrol them like a Pig normally would.
Demo needs to have limited portals because activated portals show you where Survivors are. That's freaking powerful. Especially if you use them similar to other trap killers by using them as information for important objective locations like hex totems and gens that are almost completed (though i dont recommend Hex totems, it makes them obvious to spot unless they are already obvious to begin with)
Honestly I would just change for him to be unable to replace ACTIVE portals, but be able to replace non active ones. Because again, Active Portals are freaking powerful tools for map awareness. You just have to know when and where to use it.
I prefer his teleport to Freddy's because during the endgame, Freddy is just ######### right up. Because then he wouldn't be able to use his most powerful tool. His teleport. While Demo still can.
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Freddy lost the automatic speed debuff when he got reworked. He can equip an add-on to cause a speed debuff, but it's not part of his base kit.
Also, it's damn near impossible to see sometimes in his Dream World. I was playing as him the other day and it's so dark and foggy and colorless, I couldn't make out a lot of stuff I can normally see just fine. If the survivors didn't glow when asleep, I might've never seen them. Not to mention, survivors really shouldn't be able to crouch and hide in grass in the killer's line of sight. The counter to something (like disappearing in grass) shouldn't be turning up the brightness or tripping over someone.
Anyway, I"m not saying Freddy's not powerful, I"m just saying those two things aren't problems. One because it's no longer in his base kit, and the other because the Dream World is a huge visual disadvantage that without the glow survivors might just play a game where they never interact with the killer. That's what would've happened in a few of my matches, anyway. The match on Yamaoka for sure.
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I cant speak for anyone else but my problem with him is the cinstant screaming. I have to hear that everytime i slap someone. Far and away the most annoying killer to play as for me. Im sure hes great in the right hands and I never felt he was op in game
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Bruh you did not read his post, he is making a comparison between freddy and demogorgon and how the skill ceiling for freddy is ridiculously small compared with that of demo despite sharing many similarities in concept. And I have to agree with him, the reason I dislike playing Freddy so much is because he feels brainless, his power requires basically no strategy or mechanical skill
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im just gunna say that a demo who knows how to use the pounce is better than freddy at ending chases which correlates to how much pressure they can put onto the survivors.
So if you suck at pouncing then freddy will do better but if you are good at it then you can do just as good if not better then freddy.
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This is what happens when the killers are practically only given slow down perks that award it on a successful chase and the Survivors are mostly given no good incentive to not rush gens as fast as they can. Survivors need more perks that reward doing things besides generators (like inner strength) and killers desperately need a handful of perks that slow down the early game in particular.
I mean really... think about it. Infectious Fright, BBQ, Thrilling Tremors, and even Nurse's Calling all give lots of perfectly accurate info... but only if the Killer has successfully completed a chase. Pop, Surge, Sloppy, Thana, and even Dying Light all give slow down if and only if you have at least hit, but usually downed a Survivor. Where are all the perks to help Killers who's power requires them to not be chasing 24/7? The answer was Old Ruin... but... RiP.
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Conclusion: Freddy rework was a mistake and the devs should have improved the old kit instead.
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@DelsKibara I'm not denying that Demo's kit is powerful, much of my post is dedicated to arguing just how strong it is. And how his low position in the playerbase and his issues aren't really related to his kit but the game itself. A killer like Demo is weak because of Time-Crunch and that the game needs to shift away from its current direction because all its doing is compounding the issues at hand. The longer it continues the more beefy new killers get and the more stuff is taken from survivors the shorter and shorter games are going to last either from the killer 4king or Survivors having to become extremely optimal in order to make it through a match
@FFirebrandd The problem is that survivors at higher ranks cannot afford to waste time perks like Inner Strength can work comfortably due to their 2 pronged approach but that is an outliner. The gameplay loop needs to be addressed because even if Ace In The Hole was made a default stat against a sweaty Oni there isn't much time to waste
We can't begin to include secondary objectives for the survivors until we right the current problems at hand
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Demo is what every killer main and survivor main agree, demo is just balanced, I love using demo I use him whenever I just want to have fun and not worrying about pipping/winning.
The difference between demo and freddy teleportation is that demo has to slowly set up, meanwhile freddy gets his teleportation with time, freddy if using snares can end up chases faster than demo (without perks because I've done some plays with stbfl, regular attack and shred).
Just my opinion and experiences with both killers
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Much of what OP Is saying "nerf freddy" when in reality freddy is the only good killer that you can reliably 3k with without sweating your butts off. All killers should be as powerful as him.
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If you could go through that entire post and only come up with "He must want to nerf Freddy" you need to re-read
Freddy is a symptom of a much larger issue which is Time-Crunch if we "have" to apply so many benefits to a killer then we can no longer the core issue within the game, and it needs to be addressed soon before damage is inflicted. Both killers and survivors suffer from mistakes and bad plays tremendously now if the survivors finish 2 gens before one survivor is downed the killer's chances of winning drop dramatically likewise if the killer gets two survivors downed in quick succession especially before the 3rd gen his chances of winning skyrocket. The more killers are made to perform in a fast-paced setting the more it forces survivors to do the same. Sabo builds, loot builds, stealth-ish builds, none of these are viable against a Freddy running a full meta build. The Time-Crunch has homogenized the game's variety, forced both sides into a stressful environment, and is taking away from the core gameplay. Which used to be about a horror movie esque experience. From the survivor perspective the gameplay loop was running from the killer, breaking line of sight, rescuing friends, pulling off bold maneuvers, and for Killer it used to be about being this intimidating power-house, pulling off mind-games and bettering the chase as well
Now for survivor its become holding M1 on a generator as hard as you can, hoping your team doesn't completely screw up (even more than before). For Killer its much the same there's no enjoying a long chase, a breather between it because the game's gone from that to "I have to get hooks, oh for pete's sake I need a hook now"
If the core gameplay loop can no longer be enjoyed to its max because of the time-crunch it has to be addressed. Adding in casually easy mode killers such as Freddy DO NOT change the game for the better. It only makes that mold more concrete and makes the issue more prevalent they don't make the game slower they don't improve the base flow. This is what needs to change about BHVR's current balancing agenda stop targeting symptoms, exacerbating symptoms especially needs to stop the actual problem needs to be addressed
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Essentially still complaining about freddy being ezmode and too strong no matter how you wrap it and how much you talk around it.
Freddy is NOT easymode, he's how every killer should be if devs finally fix survivor hitboxes so they can't loop us for 40+ secs anymore on other killers.
If you just focus on gens freddy will still most likely just get a 2k because it takes at least 40 seconds to down and hook somebody who isn't a complete potato and tries to be overly greedy.
Post edited by Valor188917 on1 -
You
Do I have to break it down?
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I fail to see how Oni is so Oppressive.
He has the worst early game of all killers, and. An heavily countered by playing very safe within loops.
As for Demo and Fredy , I do agree that Fredy is one of the strongest killers in the game, though if we measure him against a strong SWF team, which is quite frequent on console, he's fine as is.
On the other hand, demo struggles really hard against good teams. Same problem as deathslinger, they just cant handle good survivor.
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Humm. Perhaps because the whole premise of the game is that 4 people must work together to beat 1 single more powerful opponent.
Hell, that's the whole problem of the game. At the moment, a good survivor is way stronger than the killer with the amount of resources they have; strong loops on top of second broken chance perks.
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Ontop of after the freddy patch consistently having 20+ pallets on the map of which many are still very very safe.
Heck I remember that some JUNGLEGYMS had 2(!) pallets altho that was a bug and fixed but it took them ages.
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40 seconds is a normal chase time on healthy survivors for most non-stealth m1 killers unless the survivor tries to do stupid ######### or is really really greedy, unless you now think ppl like zubatlel somehow become "bad" once they take m1 killers.
I'm not counting chasetime as "during" chase but also when personally knowing who you're after. Also survivorhitboxes are smaller than killerhitboxes, I'm not talking about actually landing hits on survivors but how killers lose their speedadvantage that they're designed to have during many loops.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2DV2fgOfoI
For example chase starts at 22 but it still almost takes him 30 seconds to down her even tho she basically used no resources and completely ######### up the entire chase by being greedy, mind you that is no pallets used, no loops done and only a small distance gained, if she had just ran away in a straight line after the first hit the chase would've been even longer, that's how bad she played. After that you can count up to 10 seconds to hook somebody and bam, 40 seconds for a single hook even when a survivor is a complete potato on an M1 killer, that's 3 half done gens without even calculating the time it takes him to find the others afterwards.
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The post is comparing Demo-who is a good killer that suffers from time constraints-to Freddy-who essentially has the same primary ability as Demo, but is marginals above him in terms of power.
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Demo is too weak should be the point of this thread, instead it's "freddy is too strong for being one of the only viable killers in this game that doesn't take 100s of hours to play well as"
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"The worst early game". Yeah Trapper, Hag, Michael Myers, and (Debatably) even Pig and Plague would like to have a word with you about a "slow and difficult early game of all killers"
He gets his power from hitting two healthy survivors, if survivors don't heal he gets some partial "tracking" thanks to blood-orbs, gets his power even if they don't heal because of the continuous blood orb spawn. His power is very easy to acquire and grants him extreme mobility ontop of multiple downs potential. I'll never understand how people try to spin it like he's this super difficult killer to play
When they removed his flick he was certainly difficult and suffered on quite a few tile variations but now its a much different story
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You don't need to port to a gen when it's already done anyway.
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Trapper and hag early game are meant for setting, as Oni you're just wandering around looking for someone to get your power. I do agree pig has a poor early game as well, thought she has a better flowing pressure after her first down.
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First I want to commend you on staying away from breaking down and starting an argument or calling people out.
Secondly I see the bigger picture myself as I do not have a bias towards either role and the point you are getting at is not focused towards either role. From the scattered replies I've read it seems most people seem to be trying to defend killer/survivors points rather than seeing that what your saying is "X and Y are the reasons everyone needs to run "meta builds" because X and Y can destroy you if you don't (on average)."
The game discourages playing fun/gimmick builds (on average) because power spikes exist on both sides. Perhaps you decided to try a new gimmick build but ran into 4 games of "Meta Spirits". Sure you have a chance of escape but you most likely get destroyed and its discouraging to say the least.
Perhaps you want to play Jumpscare Myers but you get matched against SWF teams and your build is pretty much countered from the start.
Its discouraging when the discrepancy in a match can go from 0-100 and in order to feel like you are getting the most of out your time must resort to using "meta builds".
This is NOT saying people cannot win matches against "meta builds" with "gimmick builds" but that you run the risk of wasting your time, items/add-ons and fun going against other players trying their hardest. I believe this boils down to rank being the only option and that both "casual" and "competitive" players are all forced to play together.
(If I am wrong in my assessment of what you were saying please let me know. While I wish more people got their minds into the issues of DBD at large and stopped focusing on "Killer vs Survivor" issues, its unlikely to change anytime soon.)
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Except the issue is you don't need a metabuild against fredster, he only destroys you if you derp around and don't play optimal (follow the killer around, try plays and have fun instead of focusing on objective) but that's the case for many killers in this game.
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This was very well written and I very much enjoyed reading. Good analysis. (Although maybe add a few headings next time)
I agree with most of what you said although I think you may have exaggerated the disparity between Freddy and Demo a little bit. You didn't once mention the fact that if a survivor is awake none of Freddy's powers (aside from the teleport which would allow him to put pressure on a different part of the map) have any effect over them. In these instances Freddy becomes a pretty tried and true M1 killer and a survivor can capitalize on this moment of respite while they are awake to loop any Freddy hard.
If you can loop any other M1 killers, you can loop a Freddy Krueger while you're awake. While this doesn't impact how relevance of the rest of what you said, what Freddy can do while survivors are asleep, it still stands as an irrefutable piece of evidence and factor for what keeps Freddy in line and balanced. I think it's definitely something worth mentioning, and explains why he is balanced the way he is, he may not have all the problems other killers have like a cooldown on his snares or not needing to stop to perform an animation to place his snares, but he does have his own problems like not having a power at all over survivors who are not asleep in the dream world.
On the flip side I don't think that Demogorgon is as bad as you say he is, and I appreciate the fact that you took the time to go over what Demo could do: apply pressure to various points of the map, high map mobility, a strong chase that allows players to show off both mechanical skill and mindgames with the shred.
To this end, no I don't believe he's low-tier and I've never heard anyone else say that either, if he was my first thought would be about the killers below them, if Demo is in a bad spot right now what does that say about the killers frequently below him on the tier list? Clown, Leatherface, Pig, Plague, Legion, if Demo is bad these guys would be in an atrocious position. Another way I might possibly frame is that Demogorgon isn't bad, he's simply outclassed, it's not that he doesn't have the ability to perform he does he just doesn't at the level of some other killers
What I do believe and am aware of however, is something that I've frequently been bringing up rather recently, is the notable absence of anyone playing Demogorgon. As a survivor I've seen maybe a total of 3 demogorgons in 3 months (for clarification I'm usually operating in red ranks, but then again it doesn't matter because rainbow ranks) which obviously is an indicator of something, something's going on there, something's not quite right. So many people on the forums vouch for Demo as being one of the most balanced killers who's viable at all ranks and that may be theoretically true, it's not what is actually happening, if that were the case there would be so many more people playing this killer.
And that's what I find most interesting. Killers who have low pick rates tend to have those numbers because either they aren't viable and they're held back by their power not being that great or because they have high skill floors. Prime example is Nurse, the best killer in the game but extremely difficult to use especially for new players. So why is such a mostly universally "great and balanced killer" picked so infrequently? It's a really interesting question, and obviously I think the knee jerk answer there is "because he's not that great, he sucks!" but I really don't think that's true.
I don't honestly think that demo's problems are attributed to him being bad, I think there are some other factors and answers at play there that don't have less to do with "being a low tier killer" and some other things yet to be considered. I know from my own personal perspective my reason for not playing demogorgon is I simply don't like his playstyle, it's not all that fun to me, and that's very much a personal preference.
I'm not going to claim to have an answer to this question but I do believe it's more complicated than simply labeling him as a low tier killer because that frankly shouldn't be possible, a killer with a kit like his shouldn't be low tier: he has map pressure, chase potential, he has everything that a good killer needs at their disposal.
But again, I agree with most of what you said that there is a disparity there that does exist, and a bunch of the other stuff you mentioned like the time crunch.
I'd also like to briefly mention that I think some issues with the time crunch may be addressed at least partially by the upcoming "start-game collapse" that the devs said they would be implementing over the anniversary stream but have not given us any details of. Although we can probably assume that since the endgame collapse is meant to speed up and finish a match, the opposite would be something that slows down the beginning, giving time for both the killer and survivor to assess the map they're on, get acclimated figure out generator placement, where the basement is, etc. and that would at least be a start in addressing the time crunch of fast paced gameplay with no breathing room that you mentioned.
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This argument of "X killer is too strong/X perk is too strong" will continue to go around in circles for eternity.
For every person who says "X is too powerful" there will be another who says it isn't.
What DBD needs is to change core problems rather than try and fix individual things on either side.
If the foundation is broken, the house will always be crooked.
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I have to slightly disagree with this.
I play both sides and I've stated a lot on other threads that I find Freddy really boring to go against, not because of his power or because I can't "get good" against him (I've escaped him at times of course) but because he really disappoints me. I was never a fan of the NOES movies, the character isn't my favourite horror movie character and the Freddy I go against on dead by daylight really disappoints me when I see the white clocks in the HUD.
So no, it's not always a case of survivors overusing the words 'bored' or 'overpowered' because that's just generalising all survivor mains. Realistically if a killer were truly overpowered then there would be no way to win against them. However people can have an opinion on any killer and find them boring, I've just justified mine.
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Because looping is way overturned.
At red ranks 1 good survivor can run the killer for way too long, heck, I can run lots of killers for a good amount and Im only rank 9 as survivor.
And even if you down a survivor in 30 sec after finding them, there are usually 2 gens popping in the distance, putting the entire pressure of the match on the killer.
They should allow mic for all survivors and balance the game around comms.
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Because looping is way overturned.
Debatable at best, a number of maps in the game have already recieved major revisions to the way they spawn. Some such as Rancid Abbatoir haven't changed much at all but maps like Ironworks, and others are certainly evidence of that. Yeah map RNG can sometimes really smack the killer down like combining an L-T wall with a jungle gym and a powerful unique map region tile right next to each other. But the same can also very easily happen to survivors as well with good tiles spread out across the map, low pallet generation, etc. You can't really blame Map tile RNG as being too favorable to any one side because it has the potential to be dirty to both sides.
At red ranks 1 good survivor can run the killer for way too long, heck, I can run lots of killers for a good amount and Im only rank 9 as survivor.
And? This rank 1 good survivor example simply performed better then the killer player, just as you performed better and were able to out-trick the killers you have encountered. That's generally how PVP is supposed to go, I don't want to be handed wins because "I am powerhouse". If you don't want challenge in a PVP game then what's the point? The other players aren't Ai one can blow up at one's leisure they have come for a similar reason as you and should be respected as such. Complaining that because a player did better then another player and thus restrictions should be put in place just because is a bit silly.
And even if you down a survivor in 30 sec after finding them, there are usually 2 gens popping in the distance, putting the entire pressure of the match on the killer.
That's a problem with the current gameplay loop as I've said, not the core chasing gameplay. That's what needs to be addressed, nerfing survivor agency and power only makes the game go by faster. If you want survivors to be nerfed then you are contributing to the fast game pace, because that's what you get. You can't expect survivors to not focus even harder on gen-rushing when their ability to stall and have forgiveness in game mechanics gets ever more blunted
They should allow mic for all survivors and balance the game around comms.
Honestly I have to agree. Pandora's box was opened years ago by the SWF system and third party mic-software. You can't blacklist, you can't tell people not to use it, there's no way to dodge it. They need to implement an official mic-system on-top of other changes. Now this would be a more difficult process then one might think because it opens up its own can of worms. Its definitely not something clear-cut I will say
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First I want to commend you on staying away from breaking down and starting an argument or calling people out.
Thank you. I want to make a civilized, worthwhile, and great DBD discussion. The DBD community has been plagued with infighting for way too long. I just want to see the situation improve for everyone
Secondly I see the bigger picture myself as I do not have a bias towards either role and the point you are getting at is not focused towards either role. From the scattered replies I've read it seems most people seem to be trying to defend killer/survivors points rather than seeing that what your saying is "X and Y are the reasons everyone needs to run "meta builds" because X and Y can destroy you if you don't (on average)."
The game discourages playing fun/gimmick builds (on average) because power spikes exist on both sides. Perhaps you decided to try a new gimmick build but ran into 4 games of "Meta Spirits". Sure you have a chance of escape but you most likely get destroyed and its discouraging to say the least.
I agree. One of the biggest problems in the community is people have become walled off if you will. Everyone's just gotten seated in their own bubble and never really reassess the game or their opinions. They've adopted absolute thinking and its the worst type of thinking because its harmful to one's self too. The stronger they make certain elements the more they force meta adoption, shrinking the game's variety and making more of the roster unbalanced. We must eliminate the issue and then most of the symptoms will no longer exist
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I kinda agree with this, in a sense that at this point it would be nice if both sides would get a bit more time for matches. Smaller maps and killers with more map pressure are a good thing in my opinion though, simply because they allow for more interaction bettween killer and all 4 survivors, whereas if the balancing was more focused around extending the survivors objective time and the average chase time, survivors at average would be spending more time just doing their objective without interacting with the killer, which wouldn't be the most exciting thing.
I have heard though that the devs are working on an early game phase, which could extend the time of matches and the time that killers have to deal with survivors, which i think would be fantastic, but as you said, implementing such a balance change would make the top tier killers broken if these changes really just benefited the killers without buffing at least solo survivors in some other way. So the devs really need to be careful about that.
I think if they do add an early game phase which would slow games down a bit, solo survivors would need some information buffs as well, camping would need to be nerfed, and top tier killers would also require some small nerfs.
Freddy shouldn't be able to make you fall asleep too fast, and a small nerf to his chase potential might also be needed.
Oni just needs his slugging potential gutted. He should at the very most be able to down two survivors with one use of his power, and only if he outplays the survivors heavily. Increasing the time you lose of your power when downing a survivor from 7 seconds to something like 15 seconds or even more would be a good change. They could increase the amount of Blood Orbs that survivors drop when being hooked to compensate a bit for the power loss, so he doesn't get nerfed too much when playing normally by hooking survivors instead of slugging like crazy.
Spirit's counterplay honestly just needs to be more skill based, but no idea how to do that.
However despite that I do think this game is in a pretty good spot balance wise at the moment. It still has a lot of room for improvement, but at the moment the game is pretty well balanced. I'd also argue that Demogorgon is pretty decent even now, you just need to use his portals while patroling gens and applying map pressure as much as possible, but I would say he is not viable against top tier survivors teams.
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idk man id say clown and trapper are pretty bad early game. At least early game is the quickest phase to get through so oni can get out of it with 2 hits and start rolling. Imagine being trapper and have nothing to show for your work in early game if your traps arent perfect. Ive had games as trapper where not one person stepped in a trap , granted it was back when maps were the size of wingsofredemption.
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I've been saying the same thing for ages and the majority of people ripped on me for it: Freddy is OVERLOADED and needs changes. I don't agree with the "all killers should be like Freddy", because then all killers will have map pressure, anti-loop tools, and built-in counters to strong survivor perks like BT.
I personally think all killers should be like Billy and Huntress. Billy has strong map pressure, but he can be looped easily. It's compromise. Huntress lacks map pressure but can end chases super quickly. I think most people can agree that these 2 killers are balanced and fair to play against. Then you get someone like Freddy who can teleport to any generator on the map, place snares to stop loops WITHOUT going into animation (take that, Trapper and Hag), and as long as survivors are asleep, see them glowing bright and not have to worry about BT. Demo pales in comparison to Freddy. I can't really think of any weaknesses Freddy has.
While I do agree Demo can be strong in the right hands, he takes so much extra effort when Freddy can do everything he can, just easier. He doesn't waste time setting up portals to teleport. He doesn't slow himself and risk missing a Shred when dream snares can be placed in the middle of a chase. Survivors also can't take away his teleporting ability.
Most people say "just wake up", but this is the equivalent of saying "just dodge the chainsaw" to a Bubba who's facecamping in the basement. The alarm clocks are always on the other side of the map. Which is a huge waste of time. Meanwhile, Freddy wastes no time in doing anything since he requires no set-up to perform effectively. Why can't we make Freddy an actual set-up killer like Trapper and Hag?
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The post is meant to say that one killer is more powerful than the other when they both have the same abilities.
I would also like to point out that Freddy doesn't take any practice to play well.
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You got a point, but against SWF Freddy got little to no chance, lets not talk about other weaker killers.
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It depends on the SWF's team composition and the player behind the Freddy. Giving a blanket statement "SWFs hard counter Freddy and he has no chance everytime" is a far cry from reality. And why shouldn't we talk about weaker killers? By ignoring them and only focusing on what I presume you mean, It is ignoring a very large percentage of my argument and further fuels the Time Crunch meta
This is no longer a series of isolated events this is something that affects the entire game and can't be beaten by throwing a blanket nerf or buff over gameplay mechanics
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