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Freddy And Demogorgon Disparities Reveal What's Wrong With The Game
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Freddy is still harder than Killers like Wraith, the only difference is that freddy doesn't have to guess loops after the first run, it's still better to not rely on having to run a loop once till the survivor runs into a trap so yes, there's alot of difference between a good and a bad freddy.
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The time crunch meta exists because survivors are able to play effectively way to easily due to communication. In a normal scenario where up to 3 other ppl would go for a save a SWF can coordinate that which already saves a ######### ton of time. The Time Crunch meta that exists right now is because killers in general are getting buffed to be even viable, ppl cannot dick around anymore unless the killer is waaay below their league but in essence nothing changed for killers. Games went longer before yeah but that's because killers weren't a real threat if they got outclassed even if survivors ######### up hard due to many safety nets.
Gens used to go slower because everybody and his mom tried to bully the killer, now flashlights got nerfed, palletstunning is harder and chases are harder due to losing palet vacuum so more ppl went to holding m1.
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The time crunch meta exists because survivors are able to play effectively way to easily due to communication.
The Time Crunch meta exists with or without SWF communication. All optimized SWFs do is exacerbate the issue further, they are not the cause of it.
Gens used to go slower because everybody and his mom tried to bully the killer, now flashlights got nerfed, palletstunning is harder and chases are harder due to losing palet vacuum so more ppl went to holding m1.
You cannot assume everyone that played survivor wanted to bully the killer, you are taking the toxic crowd and stretching it out to affect the entire population. You come close to grasping one of fault lines that led to this but you muck it up with your biased view-point
The Time Crunch meta that exists right now is because killers in general are getting buffed to be even viable
And perk nerfs, pallet quantity nerfs, more killer sided maps, item nerfs, etc. I still can't understand why yall have such an obsession with flashlights, yeah they can be strong. But the insta-heals and other things were much stronger what's more is the flashlight required the survivor to be in the position to use it.
Also pallet vacuum? Dude that thing's been gone for years now and the sandbox it was in bares very little resemblance to our current meta sandbox. Have you been watching Tydetime videos?
I'm not saying anything but that kind of mentality is something that he tends to express a lot
Post edited by BlueFang on0 -
Why do players dislike Demogorgon? No matter what the individual complaints it will always boil down to his portal system and the root problems coming out of it. The demo is all about the set-up having portals set up at key points in a map, maintaining pressure and mobility. Despite how much of a time-saver they should be and can be keeping them set up wastes a lot of valuable time. You have to place two portals, go through one to activate the chain and all of this involves extensive backtracking. In a meta that revolves around micro-managing every second and capitalizing on any pressure, you can make this invested time could mean the difference between a win or a loss. So if the investments fail to garner any substantial success, It can be very frustrating.
This perfectly encapsulate the frustration I've been feeling when playing the Demogorgon. The time spent placing, activating and maintaining portals can simply outweight the potental time actualy saved by using them. And that initial setup can cripple your whole game. Meanwhile everything Freddy does is either passive or instantaneous without any kind of slow down or animation lock.
As for the larger point about the time crunch I'm not sure where it is going. Should the time crunch itself be adressed and the top killers toned down a bit ? Or should the struggling killers be given better tools to deal with the inevitable time crunch ? It look like the devs are taking the first approach since they talked about introducing an early game phase in the anniversary stream. So I expect we will see some perks and powers tweaks similar to when they intorduced the End Game Collapse.
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You're just assuming but bullying the killer in my opinion is just playing the game for fun, I enjoyed those games as a killer way more than the efficient gameplay right now (well except for BS pallet vacuums), I'd even make flashlightsaves and palletstunsaves way easier than they are right now to incentivize other gameplay again.
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Agreed I had a lot more fun (even if it was stressful at times no lie) when survivors were really going after you. Where you had to be devious sometimes to pull a fast one on them and it was satisfying as heck! I mean you can't expect survivors to bow down before the killer if you play the game long enough even if you are a scardey cat you are going to realize its just a PVP game with a horror skin. And so PVP players will do what PVP players do which is fight
Too many players have adopted the belief that if survivors feel confident they have to be nerfed and in some areas at the time, yes. But a game that continually punishes people for being proactive and engaging with the other players in the lobby, that's not beneficial. DBD has to strike the balance and it has come close many times
If the community can't get past the factionalized talking points and agree on stuff then the developers will no longer have these torn sections of the playerbase they have to appease.
TLDR? I already did a TLDR!
jk
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I would've simply made the game casual friendlier and removed the dumb skill ceiling.
Survivors are not faster than killers during loops.
Ruin nerfed to it's current state.
Easier to save during pickup (Palletstun/Blind, no timing required). Way more pallets but very unsafe ones that require you to actually hit the stun, stuntime increased to 4 seconds.
Absolutely no more infinites or huge timewasters.
All walls are not seethrough.
All those changes should've gone at 1 time so ppl wouldn't reviewbomb as hard.
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Idk I've only died as survivor like once or twice now in 2020 no exaggeration.
The survivor side is stupid lvls of easy and im not even that good at it
Funimentally mechanically i have every advantage over killers, i only need to do 105 seconds of objective, my team gives me communication =to or better then like a dozen perks together. And my second chance perks double as both killer time wasters and speed boots to get around quicker then he.
Like I can have perks that litterally save my life instantly and let me escape consistently and the killer gets like... louder breathing ? Better basement hooks by like 4%
Thats another thing all these percentage point add ons and perks hide the fact that like enduring or something shaves of like 1.5seconds or 4% extra this is like .005 of a second saved even the 8% surge power is at best like 8 generator seconds and pop at its best is only like 20 seconds saved, something four survivors can erase in 5 seconds together.
Teamwork as a power is nuts it takes anything the killer has to do independently and divides the work by 4.
In my experience the game used to be scary and about horror and now its just a horror skin with a bloody coat of paint.
The game went in the wrong direction with killer interaction. It's lead to bullying and imbalance and frustration.
They should have focused on stuff that lets you win chases not just extend or delay with loops.
You can run but you can't hide !
Neat... now every scary killer is a scooby dew monster that you can run around in circle like a clown. And to compete with being removed from the game(/the killers only job) they give more super powers to people then they do the monsters...
No if you kill all this chase bs and make the game about getting away rather then standing at each pallet waiting for the killer to catch up you'd have a way different ball game. One wed enjoy playing alot more
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I would've simply made the game casual friendlier and removed the dumb skill ceiling.
Yeah no balancing for casuals does nothing but eventually break a game's balance and kill replayability. I've already been part of a game (Battlefront 2) that did that and it was miserable. Improve QOL, make things smoother? Agreed 100% but make things easier for the casuals? Heck no
Survivors are not faster than killers during loops.
Survivors aren't faster they have a smaller hitbox that's their advantage in a chase. The hitbox could be adjusted of course but that'll lead to some funky stuff. We already have enough hitbox problems
Easier to save during pickup (Palletstun/Blind, no timing required). Way more pallets but very unsafe ones that require you to actually hit the stun, stuntime increased to 4 seconds.
4 seconds would be rather miserable as a killer, really I don't think the game needed such changes. But the other stuff is interesting, unsafe pallets galore feels like it would get tedious very, very, fast for both sides though
Idk I've only died as survivor like once or twice now in 2020 no exaggeration.
The survivor side is stupid lvls of easy and im not even that good at it
So you mean to actually tell me that after 6 months of active survivor play, reaching purple and red ranks, encountering campers, moris, tunnelers, etc. You've only died twice and the only thing you can bring up is that survivor is stupid levels of easy?
I would go through the rest of your arguments, but its nothing but parroted blah blah I K N O W you've heard from elsewhere. Go and formulate critical individual opinions of your own and then come back
Or at least get better bait
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I have a hard SWF group of talented people. We are used to working in games and playing competitive call of duty, rainbow 6, overwatch, rocket league and have been a top tier clan in destiny1-2
I play survivor very immersed actively avoid the killer and mainly play green and purple killers, and plan for match and hatch and on console where the community of killers are very weak
Its really not that hard to belive
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You see now that explains a lot. Most people be they killer or survivor are not expecting to go against a coordinated try-hard team that's used to playing uber competitive Over-Watch or Destiny comp/raids. In those games and environments, such opponents are expected and there is very often equally equipped and skilled opposing teams
When you bring that level of equipment and mindsets to DBD, its just pub-stomping. You can't balance the entire game around rare high-tier sweaty players that are coming in with a pre-built loadout, designated roles, knowledge of what each other is going to do. You and you're team have practically planned a war while most killers are likely just starting up after a long day of work or school and just going with what flows. There's no alternate matchmaking just one general flow so there's no pre-warning either
The game should account for this (I believe in trickle down balance) but you are also expecting the survivor population themselves to match up to you're squad. That's just not possible, not every survivor team has come from the Over-Watch league or from an all out comp grind-fest in Destiny 2 that's so efficient they can afford to show off with Not-Forgotten and Luna's Howl equipped at the same time
I would like to apologize looking back at my post I was rude
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Freddy is OP and needs a nerf or ten.
Demo is in need of a buff or two.
Balance.
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No land beyond/ Khvostov 7G-02
I'm not even that good in dbd but for real rank up should affect gameplay. Each lvl would increase skillcheck difficulty or generator time until its nearly impossible to survive. Thats my thinking is that we should be scored as a team and if even one of us gets away he's lost.
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There's a large difference between good and players with any killer, but it doesn't change the fact that anyone can pick up Freddy and 4K on one of their first games as him. I used the splinters after he got reworked and I 4K 5-gen. Splinters leave you without any perks, offerings, or add-ons, meaning I was bare. That's how braindead of a killer he is.
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Killers are like perks some are crap like monstruous shrine others rock like DS
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That doesn't mean he's braindead that just means he's powerful. What can a wraith do what a freddy cannot during the game that would make him a higher skillcap? Wraith hits you, cloaks then looks for another player or maybe chases after you if you feel save, other than that he just M1s you like freddy. The difference is that freddy has mapwide pressure with his teleport through either teleporting or faking it. You can do tons of mindgames with his teleport even during a chase.
Also a reminder that a loop against freddy is how the game was meant to be played without the exploit that is looping pallets/cutting corners as a surv at max efficiency.
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Also a reminder that a loop against freddy is how the game was meant to be played without the exploit that is looping pallets/cutting corners as a surv at max efficiency.
@Valor188917 You know if we go down this rabbit hole of "Well it wasn't intended" it'll lead us to the fact survivors should have double stamina perks, exhaustion that goes away while running, and a whole crazy load of pallets that should be reintroduced because "That was the way the game was meant to be played"
The game was originally designed to be a hide and sneak stealth game, it stopped being that years upon years ago. If we were to bring back that original focus and kill the mechanic of looping the entire game would have to be rebuilt again. Whole perk decks would have to be completely rebuilt for killers in order to accommodate the new stealth focused gameplay. Heck the poor Doctor would have to get nerfed and reworked again because he would utterly decimate everyone
The core gameplay of chasing and looping is what has kept this game alive through the years. If populations on both sides hated it this game would have died and games like Last Year and Friday The 13th would have been the winners. Last Year The Nightmare didn't even reach 50 players playing at once yesterday
https://steamcharts.com/app/1195460
Friday the 13th has 500 people playing and a max all time peak of 16,000
https://steamcharts.com/app/438740
Dead by daylight had over 40k people playing yesterday and 75k all time
https://steamcharts.com/app/381210
There's a reason DBD has survived and flourished while all these other games died. These games focused on hide and sneak and the killer being all powerful. Sure each had their issues and stuff but any balancing issues they had are utterly dwarfed by DBD's past of errors, if this is the way DBD should be balanced why did none of these games catch on? DBD weathered any faults because its gameplay is the most solid and designed of them all. All players regardless if they are killer or survivor have agency there's no one hit perma kills, no mass teleportation, no poorly designed shooter/melee system. What DBD lacks in showyiness it makes up for with a truly deep mechanic system
We take that away at our own peril
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While I can see your view I have to completely disagree. If ranking up would affect survivors so dramatically then killers too would have to suffer some stuff too otherwise no one would play survivor. Generators are already the most boring part of playing survivor you make every match have a build in Hex: Lullaby affect with skilll checks you are going to absolutely burn out most survivors entirely. There would no longer be a challenge for killers if all we have to do is just walk around the map, the try-hardiest would end up running stuff like Unnerving presence and Lullaby just to make the match even more miserable.
Maybe you should try solo queuing for a day or two only just use whatever you use normally and see how difficult matches become without the coordination and communication of swfs. Because if you balance the game around the highest tiers of try-hardiness its just going to become miserable for everyone
The only true win/loss conditions in this game for me is if the killer kills everyone or all 4 survivors escape. Everything else is in the eye of the beholder 4ks and 4-escapes are meant to be special if you make them easy they lose all meaning
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But we’re going to ignore that 80% of the game happens when gens are available for Freddy to teleport to? ONE of his powers only stops when it’s end game and from experience - that doesn’t happen often with Freddy
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Oni has amazing pressure - many of his players have also figured out how to counter his weaknesses and nearly ALWAYS run corrupt invention.
His power is also very dumb because he can essentially never run out if the Oni plays smart as all it takes is to smack a survivor and this essentially forces them to heal ASAP as a way to stop the Oni from farming on them - which derails the game for the survivors.
on top of this - the dumbest thing about his power is that he doesn’t suffer from collision when using it. Behaving as a better Billy lol
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Really its pretty funny how stacked Oni is when you break it down. Michael Myers has a set amount of stalk across all 4 survivors and each addon that makes it last longer or applies a second effect forces him to absorb more of it. Effectively limiting his potential max power usage considerably. The Oni doesn't have even to wait for survivors to heal to get his power. Blood orbs are a passive, always spawning and he can even farm them to a degree. I'll never understand why Oni is allowed to be more then a jack of all trades and not suffer any unique downside or even a variation of Hilly-billy and Michael's downsides. I honestly wonder if they planned for Oni to have more downsides to his power but the reaction they got from the hilariously bad state of PTB Ghostface and the absolute lukewarmness of Demo they just decided to go crazy
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This was a quite good read, I'm surprised I actually read the whole thing, of course the community...kind of dicks, are directly stating it with things like "ah you said that demo is op? Welp NOT GONNA READ IT JUST GONNA COMMENT". Yeah, that always sucks. Anyways I know this is an old post so I apologize about the resurrection but recently I've been kind of advocating for a newer Freddy, one that may or may not (I need help, in this regard) better fit for weakness, interestingness, and also time-crunch. After-all I do like a game to be more than a 10 minute GET ALL THEM GENS DONE fest. So if your interested in my post about this please check it out! Sorry about the self-advertising, I just don't really think it has any hope besides doing that. https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/174047/freddy-rework-concepts-for-a-new-nightmare#latest
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He has a audio cue, you can always hear it when he tries to teleport.
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You wouldn't need hide and seek, looping is not used by a majority of survivors in an effective way in the first place so it being nerfed to shreds wouldn't do anything anyways unless you are one of those insufferable people who think that "influencers" actually make people want to play games because mostly those people would be affected.
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I don't know how to say it, but these killer main boys are all such a crying baby, I mean, he is actually op (yes, the forbiden word), and if you don't think that way probably is just because you suck as a killer and you have to learn to play. Here some official stats (ps, devs said a balanced number should be 2 kills per match, and makes sense):
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Hope in the future they take time to slow down the overall pace of games while balancing killers to that accordingly. I shall only dream.
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I would honestly even be in favor of changing how the hook-states work and everything else if it meant that games could be longer, more enjoyable and less stressful for both sides. And a change as huge as that could be catastrophic but maybe more dramatic changes could be worth looking into on an experimental PTB
Because I really wish BHVR would use their PTB as more then just a DLC testing board, I want to see them integrate an experimental section to their game where the playerbase can get together and check it out. It could be a fantastic way to get the community engaged and interested
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I agree with all of this except saying oni is a meta killer. Although he has a strong power, he has a weak early game and needs to charge up his power to use it. He is the definition of balanced.
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I think you had the right understanding of the issue comparing Freddy and Demo until:
"Back in the day when survivors had access to strong and forgiving perks, add-ons, and pallets they could afford to waste time. 1 or 2 survivors could hard-carry their team with their looping skills but now things are quite different."
This just not accurate. Survivors can still waste a ton of time and win. It is still very forgiving on survivor side. You can make many, many mistakes and it still not really matter.
"Freddy is an over-tweaked beefy killer who along with Oni and Spirit are part of the reason the Time-Crunch meta has become so overwhelming for both sides."
Freddy isn't over tweaked, he's what the other killers like Demo need to be brought up to. The "time-crunch" meta is on the killer side, not on the survivor side. Killer design has absolutely nothing to do with why survivors rush the gens at high ranks.
You can summarize most of the post as:
Survivors are gen rushing because killers like Freddy actually make them feel threatened, where as most killers the survivors "could" end the game, but those killers are so weak and bully-able that we'll intentionally let the game drag on so we can goof around and float our ego a little more.
You're essentially saying that the games are indeed completely in the survivors hands and that we should intentionally make the killers weaker so the survivors will "let" the games slow down because they'll feel less pressure.
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The Oni's "slow and weak" early game is nothing. Killers such as Michael, the Pig, Legion, Ghostface, Trapper, Wraith (arguably), Clown, all have very slow and difficult early games because of the way their power works. The Oni only has to hit two survivors and he's got his power. That is quite literally nothing, the Oni basically has to spend a minute as a 115 tall character before he can start zooming around the map one hitting survivors. He suffers no movement penalty, no power drain when he injuries a healthy survivor, no need to plan ahead, anticipate and herd survivors towards his traps
The Oni is perhaps the easiest and most casual killer to play in the entire game and this is from someone who enjoys him.
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Freddy need son balance update, some nerf.
- Animation to deploy traps, like trapper, hag , o demo portal some animation time is need it.
- Survivor escape dream world with great skill checks, woken up by an awake survivor have no penaty time increse.
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Oni is perfectly balanced. You can deny his power easily. And in his power, any competent survivor can 360 an oni. Hell, I'm on ps4, and I do that easily. Oni is fine.
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PS4, easy 360s, complete denial of his power
If you are going against an Oni that can't hit survivors, congratulations you aren't "denying" his power you matched up against a rank 20. The only thing Oni needs to activate his power is to hit survivors. You know the fundamental most BASIC necessary element of the game?
Even if all survivors refuse to heal in order to "deny" his power (Even though 4 healthy states equal 2 rushes) its only delaying it very briefly. If survivors don't heal it renders any items or perks they brought along useless so everyone's going to stay a one hit so that's already a large boon and when Oni does get his power locating survivors and starting that snowball will be even easier. Because the Oni is a chase killer if he can enter every chase with a survivor that has one hit state with or without an active power that's an absolute win for him
We aren't even getting into the minor benefits of blood orbs such as their "soft" tracking and other tricks you can do. The Oni is absolutely easy mode with all the benefits built into him. The Oni has absolutely nothing to risk, nothing to plan ahead for, nothing to gamble just get in a chase and repeat
How you argue 360s are uncounterable actions that can't be predicted, punished, and beaten as anything else. Or how they provide special immunity to the Oni's attacks I just don't know
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I'm talking about demon dash into demon strike, not his basic attack. If he's really good, he'll hit you, but there aren't many good onis are there? Ive spun a rank 1 oni main in his power before. If you spin someone's basic attack, then yes, they're an idiot. But 360s are a lot more consistent against a powered up oni than any other killer.
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Youve never played demo at high levels have you?
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There is so much wrong with this argument
So you are acknowledging that the Oni's kit is incredibly strong and acknowledging that because of this what you said about 360s "hard" countering him can be null and void. But then you go to say "Well how many good Onis are there?"
You acknowledge there could be a problem and that there likely is, but because you think there aren't that many good Onis its not a problem. That's like looking at a radiator block and noticing there's a few tiny holes but just laughing it off as "Well there aren't too many"
Ive spun a rank 1 oni main in his power before.
So the entire population of rank 1 killers and especially Onis are now beholden and inseparable from that rank 1 Oni player. You understand of course that the use of O N E player and attributing that to the entire population is a bit of astretch and extremely "anecdotal" at best?
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So youre telling me that a killer should be 100% counterable? I dont think his power should be all that counterable. Hes fun, and thats what matters. He has drawbacks, and he lets survivors know what hes doing. Including a MAPWIDE notification that he has his power. Loops counter him as well. Hes like t3 Myers. Strong but with drawbacks. He has to absorb blood like Myers stalks. After that happens, you can still loop them. They just one hit you. Oni is fun and balanced.
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Demob.sack is trash and Freddy is not strong enough to be nerfed.
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Just wanted to thank you for that great post. These are rare in these parts.
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Blizzard did just that with Overwatch: added an Experimental Card play section where changes are put instead of the Test Server (which is now used only for huge tests like new heroes, although no more of them until OW2), and it allows all the platforms in Overwatch to test the proposed changes and provide feedback.
DbD needs to implement something like that.
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I love this post, god. I think it explains very well what the main issues with this game are. I think I have left a comment here before but I wanted to say that I got the Freddy Adept achievement a couple of months ago on my second try, fourth match playing as him EVER, against purple/red ranks ---and I don't even main killer. No mori, no OP add-ons, just Freddy and his base perks. He is definitely braindead lol. And I absolutely love Demo and wish I could actually play as him in red ranks since I have recently reached rank 1 killer, but god is he awful in the current state of the game.
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I just critiqued your post for using absolutist viewpoints and biased data, but to end this. Nothing should be 100% counterable if something is then it might as well not exist.
I understand there is quite a difference but look at how fighting games are balanced you have upper, mid, and bottom attacks many can be blocked but if you use the wrong block it'll go through and throws or other attacks have their own discrepancies. Certain attacks have range or arcs and require the right distance. So just as in DBD everything is a mindgame you have to predict what the other player is going to do, make them go where you want, take advantage of their plays, counter, punish, reset. This describes DBD's core gameplay very well everything is about the Mindgame mistakes will be made but its up to each player to best the other. This is pure, healthy, and dynamic gameplay that isn't beholden to any side and feeds little entitlement
Loops counter him as well.
Haha, flick goes woooooosh, thud, thud,
He has to absorb blood like Myers stalks.
That is an absurd comparison. Myers has to actually stalk a moving survivor who when they notice him will try to get out of his line of sight and delay him as much as possible. Each survivor has a set hard limit of stalk juice and when it goes, its gone for the entire game. Blood Orbs if allowed will generate endlessly, are static bright red floating objects that only move when the oni gets near, and etc. Both myers and oni hold M2 to generate power but what they get it from is V A S T L Y different
Including a MAPWIDE notification that he has his power.
Practically half the cast has a mapwide notification for when their power activates or deactivates. It's not a unique downside and it only tells you to prepare
You've mostly just talked about the basic chasing system and skirted away from most points about the Oni's power and the way that interacts with the game's general systems
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I have a question. Whats flick? Ive never heard that term used for one before.
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Oh flick's a term people use to refer to the large amount of turn control Oni (and poor hillybilly) gets when he first starts rushing and when he does his attack
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Thank you.
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Main him at Rank 1 on PC actually.
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I don't use Demo that much not good with his Shred power.
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Honestly, the fact that they could look at the numbers and claim that OoO doesn't need a tweak, and then turn around and ignore other numbers that show Freddy with an unnaturally high killrate tells me everything I need to know about the devs work ethic.
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