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Gen speeds are fine
Comments
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Not every Gen has the same percentage of Objective. The first Gens are the easiest, you cannot say that every Gen is 20%. That is way too easy and completely ignores that the game will progress. If the Killer is afk, then you can say that every Gen is 20% of the Objective. But not when the Killer is actively trying to hinder the Survivors to do Gens.
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Now you guys are even trying to skirt aroumd math to make this better 😂😂😂
This is stupid simple 5 gens = 100%. 1 fifth of 100% is 20%. We could include opening an exit gate, that wpuld reduce the percentage a smidge, but this isnt complicated. Yes that first gen is easier. That doesnt magically change math
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Nah, I say, applying math on that is stupid.
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Say whatever helps you ignore how broken this ######### is. Idc. Doesnt change facts 🤷♂️
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The facts I see in this video is that even with that insane amount of ressource to get the first Gen done as fast as possible, the Killer won with 3 Gens to go.
But yeah, lets just ignore that. Of course, you are right, every Gen is the same. All Gens together only take 85 seconds, completely agree. You are 100% correct on that.
Oh, btw., a 100 year old person, every 20 years of their live are the same, correct? Because, math. You know.
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The fact that these kids were stupid and got got doesnt change thd fact that they got a gen done in 17 seconds. A competant team would have won that game every single time with ohtz having little to no chance of stopping them. Dont pretend like we all didnt watch thd same video and saw how dumb those kids were.
And nice job shifting goal posts, none of that addresses the problem. 20% of their objectives done in 17 seconds. You have to be 15 shades of crazy to defend that as being balanced.
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Nah, mate. You are simply wrong and only focus on one thing to prove your point. I think I ignore you from now on.
If you focus on that one fking Gen that got done very fast and ignore everything else (even when you know that the first Gen is the easiest), there is really nothing you can use in your argumentation without being ridiculous.
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"a 100 year old person, every 20 years of their live are the same, correct? Because, math. You know" thats not what hes saying hes saying 1/5th equals 20 percent thats math a fact you're bring up someones life experience in form of someones 100 year life every 20 is different which has nothing to do with math......also the point i quoted has nothing to do with math but him saying 1/5 is 20% is math if you cant understand that we cant help you
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Still waiting for someone to explain how doing 20% of the objective in 17 seconds is balanced. That one point IS the point. Ill ask again, is it cool if the killer kills a survivor in 25 to 30 seconds? That balanced?
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Lol no I wouldn't bring that behaviour to this board
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All 4 Survivors sacrificing huge portions of their kit in order to complete that 20% of their objective 12 effective seconds faster than normal (or 3 literal second faster).
Do remember that Survivors do their objective the fastest at the beginning with the reverse being the case for the Killer. So while the Killer completing 20% of his objective (which would be about 2-3 downs btw) in the first 20 seconds almost never happens, the Killer completing 20% of his objective in the FINAL 20 seconds happens all the time.
So completing a generator in 17 seconds if balanced because it will be the fastest gen they will ever complete that game by far, and by doing so they have hurt their ability to Survive chases, heal, hide from the Killer ect due to losing out on opportunity cost when they did that, meaning that those other gens will take even longer to complete compared to if they had just played normally to begin with.
Like, after a Killer gets their first hook, the repair speed of the Survivors is practically cut in half for as long as they can maintain momentum.
The REAL issue with this only pops up when the Survivors are spread out. If the first Survivor found is decent in a chase then it's not too hard to stall for 20 seconds (which works out to 60 effective seconds of progress) and then 3 gens pop a few seconds after that first hook and the Killer goes on reddit to complain about it.
But that's saying Survivors getting so much progress so quickly with no particular perks required is a problem. What happened here isn't even close to that and the issue I brought up above wouldn't even really be solved by toolbox nerfs or whatever and could potentially not even be a problem in the first place (due to the snowball thing I brought up), especially when you take into account Killer powers (most of them anyways).
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I appreciate a well thought out and articulate answer. I dont agree that its ok for either side to complete 20% of their objectives 17 seconds into a match. What happens the rest of the match is besides the point. The only way he could have possibly stopped this was if he had known exactly what gen they were on when the match started and walked directly to it. Thats a problem.
As for splitting up, yes that is also a problem and when killers complain about gen speeds thats usually what theyre talking about with "gen rushers." I see that as an entirely seperate issue. This is closer to moring a survivor off their first hook, which very few people think of as being ok and balanced.
Now i imagine this whole conversation is moot depending on what theyre planning on doing to the beginning of the match. Well have to see. The other issue that youre bringing up with survivors splitting up is why everyone talking about this issue wants secondary objectives.
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"All 4 Survivors sacrificing huge portions of their kit in order to complete that 20% of their objective 12 effective seconds faster than normal (or 3 literal second faster)."
how would you describe "huge portions" because all they did was all bring toolboxes with add ons i wouldn't say that is huge and out of them all only one of them had prove thyself the rest of their perks are meta perks so they didnt really change or sacrifice their builds to finish a gen so quick.
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No they don't. All one survivor has to do is last 20 seconds, easily lasting a minute or more in cases of them actually knowing how to idnetify pallets, and the other 3 survivors have already reset. That is standard vs any SWF. The fact that this happened with a corrupt intervention is what is so troubling. It means killer perks designed ad hoc to slow the game for the killer and give them a chance is not working. If he were not using corrupt intervention and the survs not using toolboxes then the result would be the same.
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Hold on, what exactly are you objecting to? I said a lot of things.
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Items are 1/5th of a Survivors kit and while grouping up isn't a perk it does still have an opportunity cost.
Since they all blew their toolboxes on that one gen, that's 25% of their powerbudget (4 items and 1 perk).
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It is though, like I said above I’ll take 4 BNPs before 4 instaheal medkits. The first situation puts me in a bad situation off the start of the survivors needing 4 gens but you can eliminate that by 3 genning tjem. People can bring medkits that provide 1-2 really fast heals and then instaheal or borrowed time
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The bit about lost opportunity. They don't lose anything inherent in popping that one gen. Against most players all that they need to do to recover and carry on is hold off the killer for 20 seconds. There's always the chance of simply escaping. The fact is, by ganking a single generate with their toolboxes they ensured that their toolboxes progression got used. If they had split up and started working on gens then the odds are high that they would have lost opportunity cost due to the killer regressing gens. This means they actually incurred no loss whatsoever. Their toolboxes were 100% efficient in this scenario.
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How many games have gens been done in 17 seconds? How many games have you played where they all played a very rare shroud to get them all together AND then ALSO all of them have toolboxes with BNP? Are you serious? It isnt even that bad, if you think so then I think you need to play killer a hell of a lot more I play on both sides and honestly you don't lose the game at that point, because they just wasted ALL of their toolboxes every single one of them its gone boom. ??? Its clear you only play killer then if thats a complaint for you. It also shows a lot iabout you if you really feel the need to swear that much where they have to block it out. If its REALLY that broken then lets rework mori's too?
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The number of games it occurs in is irrelevant to tge points being made in this thread.
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No it isnt irrelevant because it isn't a rampant issue want to stop that? Cool run discordance and if you want to even further that to have the gen closer to you? Run Corrupt intervention boom that would never happen done congrats. It isn't hard to counter that AT ALL there are 2 perks that will help you can run either one if you want and it will help. BNPs are an ULTRA rare add on that I rarely get if ever. I play killer and running corrupt intervention or discordance disturbs that and I never have to worry about it and in any case I wouldnt worry? They wasted all of their toolboxes so I seriously see absolutely no issue.
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Honestly, the game in the video is far more tame than the games I had played in the month before I uninstalled. I'd play an average of 8-12 games a day and of those over half, 6 to all 12, would all be SWFs. Sometimes with flashlights and chaining their effects, or medkits effectively restarting chases the whole game. Then there's invincible perks like BT, DS, ADR, etc along with time burners like Lithe,Sprint Burst, Balanced Landing, Dead hard, etc in conjunction and if I was real lucky there wouldn't be an Object of Obsession calling out all of my movements which is extra punishing because I was a Ghostface main. Even so it's always their best looper and guess what? There's no skill. He/she literally just has to sprint burst as soon as I get close and move from pallet to pallet, which is even easier since the rest of that team can call out where more pallets are. It's not uncommon to have only 1 hook by the time 3 gens get done in this environment.
And before you say "git gud"- I'm not the only one with this problem. I had played since the games release so it's not like I'm new to counter-looping.
"If its REALLY that broken then lets rework mori's too?"
Sure, and make ivory moris a base part of the game. The fact you would complain about this while survivors have keys is kind of odd.
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Oh.
The opportunity cost was spent by BRINGING the toolboxes. The gen popping a few seconds faster is the result of paying that cost. They could have used it on seperate gens, it still would have been the same overall cost in terms of the items.
The grouping up was also it's own (smaller) opportunity cost. As was bringing prove thyself.
That clear things up?
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Yes and when I started at a rank 20 I had a group of rank 1 swfs clicking their flashlights the only issue I truly see with the game at the moment because I truly understand both sides? Is the ranking system needs to be worked on completely and I dont think cross platform will truly help that. And no even though 99% of the community is toxic I would never say git gud it isnt funny at all to use really.
And yeah keys arent often used I play BOTH SIDES they have nerfed toolboxes, they have nerfed the syringe they have nerfed styptic agent they also nerfed bond to no longer work on gens, there are so many anti gen builds and perks to use.
It is 110% a point to use on how often you see it happen, it isnt a huge raging issue that I see they decided to use them all on one gen, when it would have been smarter to wait and use it on a gen when a friend is being chased. It is asinine to see how much killer mains complain I play on BOTH sides and so many killers complain about BNP and whatnot when they have corrupt intervention or pop goes the weasel to INSTANTLY REGRESS A GENERATOR BY 25% without having to hit a skill check where survivors have to hit 2 great skill checks for BNP to even work. There are so many anti gen builds you can run that have been given to us. Plus we have pyramid head coming out who DESTROYS deliverance and DS because if he curses them cool he doesnt need to pick them up just send them to the spiky box and if they struggle in the spiky box they have to hit skill checks to struggle if they miss it oof theyre dead. Theyre giving people what they want but then a by chance thing that happens in one game sets people off heavily its really depressing honestly when theres so much more important things to fix including just things not looking right? Theres still an issue with hooking people and having them appear where they arent supposed to be like floating and being on the porch instead of the basement so if the survivors didnt see them going to the basement they will risk a save at a wrong place and be hooked.
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I would just like to point out that bnp used to immediately finish the generator.
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1)"The opportunity cost was spent by BRINGING the toolboxes"
Knowing what the result is before hand (like watching a youtube video) sure,but normally the cost is how they are used. If they all survive they keep the boxes, so it's not a loss if they just bring them. The loss is in using or misusing them. So if they use the most efficiently, they increase their chance of escape with no loss. The loss of potential only is incurred if they waste their generator progress, which they did not because they spent all of their boxes on the gen that popped.
2)"The gen popping a few seconds faster is the result of paying that cost."
That's a cost, but there was no better trade off. They made full 100% use of their boxes.
3)"They could have used it on seperate gens, it still would have been the same overall cost in terms of the items."
No, because the potential would have been wasted if one of those gens that had a toolbox working on them was regressed. In hindsight all we can say is that they wasted their boxes because we know they didn't escape, but generally bringing a toolbox incurs no guaranteed loss.
4)"The grouping up was also it's own (smaller) opportunity cost. As was bringing prove thyself."
The most you have implied is that they could have done an alternative. But given that they used the perk and the toolboxes to 100% efficiency despite a perk meant to counter that specific play style we can conclude that gen rushing is still more powerful than most killers can keep pace with and only at the cost of a few thousand blood points per person (assuming they lose, again they lose nothing if they get away). Since Prove Thyself only took one perk slot of the the 16 survivor perk slots, its use with their strategies is proven. It is a high value perk and they can still run DS, BT, Sprint Burst/Dead Hard/Lithe/Balance Landing, Unbreakable, Object of Obsession, etc.
Not only that but you've introduced the concept of scarce use for survivors but not the killer. The opportunity cost of a killer bringing Corrupt Intervention when he only has 4 perk slots vs the survivors 16 slots means he lost far more than they did. They put theirs to use while his was essentially squandered by the survivors putting theirs to use. He was essentially countered by their build.
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"I truly see with the game at the moment because I truly understand both sides"
"And yeah keys arent often used I play BOTH SIDES"
"It is asinine to see how much killer mains complain I play on BOTH sides"
You'd have to in order to still want to play the game because this game is dead for killer mains. That's why you mentioned killers complaining. You just admitted you hear this from killers, but not survivors. It's because the game is horribly lopsided. The problem with that Pop Goes the Weasel anecdote is that it is conditional- a killer that gets few hooks or is rushed from the get go doesn't get an opportunity to use it. I've mentioned in other threads that I routinely get paired with SWFs with builds and comms and they usually complete 3 gens by the time I get my first hook. I'm not the only one I know with that problem either. That means stall builds are too slow and aside from an Ebony Mori there's no guaranteed way to stall the game.
" There are so many anti gen builds you can run that have been given to us."
In my testing against elite SWFs I have only three builds that I can make work. The first is a Billy build with Discord+BBQ+Iron Maiden+Ruin. If ruin goes than gens start flying like crazy. If I'm stuck in a chase too long it's like I don't even have it because I don't have pressure across the map. This build is extremely hit or miss. I either get 4ks or I get creamed on and gate teabagged with 0 kills.
The second is basement Trapper using Iron Grasp+Agitation+Insidious or Infectious Fright+NOED. It's completely countered by SWFs that communicate because if they see where I set a trap they just call it out. I end up relying on insidious to camp an area near the basement and distribute damage in the meantime. I routinely get either 2k, 1k, or zero kills with this. It's not really fun for survivors and they curse me out whenever I used it, so I used it whenever I needed to rebuild my self-esteem.
The third build ended up being the most fun but the least effective. It was a Ghostface stall build. It uses Dying Light+Thanatophobia+Pop Goes the Weasel+Overcharge or Sloppy Butcher. Overcharge honestly gets like one surprise blow and after the SWFs realize it they warn all of the others, and since they practice with DS it's no problem being able to overcome it. That's why I switch it for Sloppy, but SB is pretty easily countered by medkits, Inner Strength, or healing with 2 on 1. It's impossible to protect Ruin with Ghostface. This build is completely countered if the team heals and is half way decent at chases. It's only good if I can secure a kill early and hope they don't heal and hope I don't start chasing my obsession so I can keep Dying Light tokens stacking. If any of that goes awry the whole build is useless.
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I don't think you get what an opportunity cost is.
Every perk in the game has an inherent opportunity cost associated with it, because bringing a perk has the downside of not bringing all of the other perks. Same goes for items.
So in this case by bringing toolboxes it means they were unable to have any flashlights or medkits. The cost between games is unrelated to a balance discussion, the toolbox could be a non-consumable just like the perks are and it wouldn't make a difference.
The point I'm making is that the group spent a lot of opportunity cost towards getting that single instant of power.
By trying to complete that gen so fast they couldn't instead take more power for chases, healing ect. Which they could have done if they instead brought flashlights, keys or medkits.
It's not that they misplayed, they had a toolbox and they used it, duh (well they did misplay but that's because of the grouping part not the toolboxes). But just that in order for toolboxes to be worth anything at all, several of them should indeed get you a big change in gen speeds, otherwise there is no point in bringing toolboxes at all.
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All I said was that the the actual cost of bringing tool boxes is not an automatic loss, and you didn't factor in the fact they used their toolboxes to 100% efficiency, nor factor in the opportunity cost of the killer who squandered 1 of his only 4 perks while the survivors used 1 of their 16 slots to counter him. Obv they played to their strengths by not bringing in flashies or kits.
" The cost between games is unrelated to a balance discussion, the toolbox could be a non-consumable just like the perks are and it wouldn't make a difference."
This point had nothing to do in response to opportunity costs. I was just furthering the point that they countered his perk with their add ons.
"By trying to complete that gen so fast they couldn't instead take more power for chases, healing ect. Which they could have done if they instead brought flashlights, keys or medkits."
Again, against most killers their strategy works perfectly because all they have to do is split in different directions and have one guy survive for 20 seconds in order for them to get their bearings. A skilled survivor can make that chase last a few or even several minutes. A very skilled player will get away without even getting hit.
"well they did misplay but that's because of the grouping part not the toolboxes"
Yes. This is what happened. It had nothing to do with toolboxes vs flashlights at that point. They were disorganized. Most SWFs react extremely well to this and already have designated baiters, medics, people to bodyblock, and so on.
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Ok?
The thing about opportunity cost was about completing a gen in 17 seconds instead of 20 (where 4 Survivors at 100% efficiency being a 20 second gen is where I'm getting the 20 from).
In a real game you'd get the hypothetical 20 second gen scenario by splitting up. You'd complete 4 gens in 80 seconds for 1 gen per 20 seconds.
Since we are assuming a Survivors is interrupted, it instead becomes 3 gens in 80 seconds for about 27 seconds a gen. The question of balance can then be brought up with if the Killer has the tools to win using the pressure from the hook, among a few other relevant questions. And some Killers are fast enough to simply down them before that first set of gens pop in the first place.
Either way that comes down to the specific Killer and is why I don't call every Killer viable.
But moving on, that isn't quite what this is about. The question isn't if the initial 20 second gens are balanced, but if using toolboxes to reduce it by 3 seconds is balanced. To which the answer would be yes.
Again that's effectively 12 seconds since it's 4 Survivors. 12 seconds for 4 toolboxes is balanced and covered by the opportunity cost of bringing 4 toolboxes.
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"12 seconds for 4 toolboxes is balanced"
Quote of the day. I'm screencapping this lmao
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It is, saying it isn't is basically saying that no pink addons or offerings are fair, so no ebony Mori, no skeleton key (tho I don't think anyone would complain if both of them were removed), no syringe, no rainbow map, no tombstone or fragrant hair Myers, no bookmark/matchbox nurse, etc.
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Go for it. Do remember that it's 12 seconds TOTAL, meaning each Survivor saved 3 seconds of their own time and it just totals to 12 seconds when added up.
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