Moris really suck
Can you please address the sanctioned griefing mechanic that is the Memento Mori? It moves the game's goalposts like no other mechanic in DBD, and I don't understand what the upshot of it is, for anyone. The red mori effectively erases a life from every survivor, and it takes Bloodpoint-earning opportunities away from killers.
Aside from "it's funsies for the killer to throw a grenade into the center of the match for kicks," I don't get it. And that's a stupid reason anyway. Like, what is even the design philosophy behind these items? Why do you believe they are enjoyable, or what do they add to the game? Why is DBD better off with these items as-is?
Also, dear repliers: I already headed off all of your whataboutisms. I'll repeat: The Memento Mori moves the game's goalposts like no other mechanic. It fundamentally torpedoes the basic game flow to a degree that no single perk, item, power, or add-on possibly can. Keys are the only other thing that mess with the game flow nearly this bad, but that is an entirely different topic that I also feel strongly about (I'm only mentioning that here out of some warped sense that I need to provide some sort of balance for all the inevitable empty SURVIVOR MAIN / KILLER MAIN replies, which incidentally is a tactic that doesn't work on me because I don't favor either role).
Moris are dumb. They are a terminally bad design choice. I don't know why they still exist in the game in this form (and no, I don't care for any "well they're better than they used to be" rationalizing, either).
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Although I don't believe they should be removed/nerfed, Moris can be irritating when on the receiving end.
Had an Iridescent Head Huntress today...who also had ebony mori AND NOED. They had obviously come prepared. After offing all survivors sans myself, the Huntress started humming over the map looking for me. Thing is...I heard the welcome drone of the hatch. In I went, wee wee wee...all the way home.
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"Can you please address the sanctioned griefing mechanic that is the Memento Mori?"
just because someone kills you with a mori does not mean its griefing like grow up
"It moves the game's goalposts like no other mechanic in DBD"
the goal posts are not moved since the end result is killer the survivors. Moving the goal post is when your objective is to finish gens to win but then you cant do that so your new method of winning is finding a hatch. that would be a example of moving the goal post.
" it takes Bloodpoint-earning opportunities away from killers"
ive never had a real bloodpoint issue with killers even if i use a red mori im still getting 30000+ with bbq
" Why do you believe they are enjoyable, or what do they add to the game?"
keys, moris, certain perks, window spawns etc etc all of these are in the game for better of for worse all you can hope is that they nerf them but i doubt they will remove them.
Personally i love moris( i know they are op) the fact that i can slow down the game and make it 3 survivors when ever i want is fun for me also i sometime i will bring a green/red one into a match and wont use it until i see some survivors bming
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The intended game flow is that survivors must repair five of the seven generators on the map and then open an exit gate to leave, while the killer must injure and hook them with the goal of progressing them through three hook states apiece, ending in sacrifice. The red mori deletes four of the 12 hook states present in any match. That is a severe moving of goalposts. It would be the equivalent of telling survivors that they only had to repair three generators + open the gate (i.e. only 4 of their 6 goals, or 2/3 of the intended total).
Also, I'm not interested in your personal Bloodpoint situation, the point I'm making is that it negatively impacts the killer's BP earnings, not to mention their potential for endgame emblems + rank. Regardless of how you personally feel about any of that (BP, emblems, or rank), the mori impacts those mechanics negatively for the killer who uses them. That's the point I'm making, is that it has a net negative impact on all sides. That isn't a good game mechanic.
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Like I said in the reply above, I'm not interested in how you personally feel about rank (although if you believe rank doesn't matter, that's an entirely different problem with the game, because rank should matter to players -- and if it doesn't, something is out of whack). My point is that moris have a net negative impact to all players, and this makes it a not-great mechanic.
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this is triggering me so i gotta say it. just look up the definition of moving the goal posts its a metaphor for changing the end goals aka i got to finish 5 gens but then that is not accomplished so its now i got to find the hatch that is what changing the goal posts . Killers goal is always to kill survivors by hooking, a mori just speeds that up but the goal of killing the survivors is not changed only speed up
Moving the goalposts. Moving the goalposts (or shifting the goalposts) is a metaphor, derived from goal-based sports, that means to change the criterion (goal) of a process or competition while it is still in progress, in such a way that the new goal offers one side an advantage or disadvantage.
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I wish they’d change them as well. They promote extremely unfun gameplay on both sides. The killer is incentivised to tunnel straight off the hook and instantly remove someone from the game, and the survivors rush gens as fast as they can, avoid altruism and then play as immersed as possible. Mori games are truly awful.
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Please put aside the semantics of my metaphor and focus on the substance of what I am saying, with regards to how the red mori deletes 1/3 of the objectives that the killer must fulfill. I have already described an equivalent survivor goal comparison.
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Which what you detail here, sounds like a match i had not long ago, where a Mori was used. We were getting the gens done rather quickly, Down to one. Than people started to die, due to the Mori. Which the killer didn't seem that great at the game, of course it was also a corn map and they might of been suffering from corn blindness. With how easily they lost a survivor that was nearby more times than i can count and survivors were able to escape from them a fair number of times in general. Yet things turn around greatly in their favor, once they started to find the people who they could Mori.
Post edited by Ghostwithaface on0 -
i already did focus on the substance of this post with my first reply. It was just really bugging me that you keep saying moving the goal post when you were not using it correctly
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Moris are amazing and are not griefing. Making you lose is not griefing. Moris are no more a "sanctioned griefing mechanic" than flashlights or pallets.
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I just find it ironic that some killers complain about genrushing, even though they bring an offering that makes them have to do only 33% of their main objective in order to win.
Ebony moris really should only work on death hook or, more preferably, if every individual survivor has been hooked at least once. That way killers wouldn't be able to tunnel someone for an instant mori, and they would actually have outskill four survivors in a chase before he gets to wipe them all clean on a whim.
I personally just don't even care about the match when a mori is used; I'll probably just loot chests, get totems, practice moonwalking and suicide on first hook when the killer eventually gets me. I see no point in trying to win if the killer can just win by doing the bare minimum.
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66%. Killer has to win two chases, as opposed to three.
And no, Moris shouldn't be made useless.
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When a killer brings an ebony mori and they are tunneling hard to get their kills I just suicide on hook. No reason to keep feeding them emblems and BP if they're gonna play on easy mode.
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Changing moris so you have to hook every survivor once berfore you can use them would make them a lot more fair without making useless
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Well, to make it equal then, keys should also only work if each survivor repaired the equivalent of a whole gen. that way the survivors wouldn´t be able to just hide all game and they would aactually have to ouskill the killer in repairing before they just escape through the hatch.
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Yeah I'd be down for that change.
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I just want to point out they did nerf ivory/ebony mori. Used to be they didn't require a hook at all, just down and murder.
Anyway, commenting on the OP's topic, any further nerf to moris renders them an actively bad idea. Why is this? Well, the only reasonable nerf to moris at that point is "survivor must be on death hook to use it." However, you cannot tell me that it's a better idea to mori a survivor, taking up between 9-14 seconds (source on that here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hrcylUc4sY) depending on character played for a cool animation, than to spend two seconds picking them up, and transporting to a hook? Objectively, unless there are no hooks within 7-12 seconds of travel time, depending on killer, you're doing yourself an active disservice using the mori at that point. it's why I think PHead's Final Judgement is so well designed: it's fast. It WILL beat the time to pick up and transport. No reason not to use it if it's available. Full length moris on the other hand...not so worth it on a time saving perspective.
I'm also curious how OP feels about Devour Hope. If five stacks are obtained double hooking two survivors and single hooking one, and only after that does the fourth player get downed, they're dead. On first down. I bring up this scenario because it happens, and yet I don't think I've ever seen survivors upset by it. Yet moris are extremely upsetting for...some reason.
Personally, if I'm being moried as a survivor, it's free clearance to move on to the next game. If I wasn't having fun in that game, getting moried was probably a good thing since now I can move on to something more fun in the next game.
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I've suggested multiple times in the past how to rework them so they'll still be useful but a bit less oppressive feeling.
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Moris pretty much halves the length of a match, so i feel like the requirements to pip should also be lowered for all players when a mori is used
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I do agree that they are still a bit overtuned. Not a large nerf but a small one would imo put them in ideal spot.
My idea was that they activate (talking about ebony) on all survivors after killer manages to get 4th hook. That way they can't be used to instantly tunnel the person who was hooked and promote & reward plaing well, downing survivors fast while giving survivors more time then the current ebony does.
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I only use the mori I bring when gens start popping fast. If a killer uses mori and there's still at least 4 gens left, he's doing it wrong.
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I can't help but notice you forgot to mention how keys do the same thing?
Even more so that if you equip the right perks your chances of getting a purple/pink key improve massively.
I can remember watching Monto play and found 3 or 4 keys in one match. All being purple or pink.
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You can remove the Ebony Mori... If you give every killer a final judgement like ability where you are able to mori the player on death hook instead.
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I agree either nerf or remove ebony mori's.
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What do you think about changing moris so you have to hook every survivor once before you can use them?
That way killers would have to put in more effort to use it and can't just tunnel and mori the first survivor they hook without them making them too weak.
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I like the idea that there needs to be four hooks in a game to use an ebony better than that idea- otherwise you wind up with one person blending the whole game which hurts the experience of all other players. "I'm the only one not hooked, so if they want an ebony I just need to hide!" As opposed to "oh crap, they only need one more hook!" ...ebony is supposed to be strong, and I think making the counter "let your team die because you're the last one to be hooked" isn't too far off from what we have currently, which is "hope you find the hatch". At least the four hooks suggestion encourages team play.
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I kinda think they're onto something with Pyramid Heads built-in kill: on final hook, under a status effect...
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I think mori's should always be an option, no offering required, but auto pop a gen that isn't currently being worked on (and auto open the doors and dropping active hooks if it leaves just one survivor left), as the Entity gets upset at losing a sacrifice. Points should go to the victim for being an obsession of the killer, and taken away from the killer for being greedy and unfair. I think it'd make the killer actually kind of scarier as a killer and make them command a little bit more respect from survivors who are already too eager to get chased by a murder monster.
Likewise I think the hatch should always be open-able without a key from the start, points going to the killer for scaring off the survivors that use it and points taken away from the survivors for being weak.
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If moris get nerfed/reworked in terms of balancing then keys should receive the same treatment.
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Yeah Moris are extremely annoying and unfair, namely the Ebony Mori, I can deal with an Ivory.
But so are keys. Not the green one though. That "thing" is a joke.
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@LordRegal Devour Hope is completely fine because they EARNED their stacks and SHOULD be oppressive. Not to mention, it can be taken away within seconds of the game starting due to bad totem placements. Almost every time I use it, this is the case. On to the topic though, I agree with everyone saying the Ebony Mori should only be available after hooking someone for the second time and Keys should only work for the Survivor that used it though. (Side note: Green Keys should differ in appearance to Skeleton/Dull Keys)
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"How it used to be" isn't a useful argument, the problem is how it is currently.
I know that, in the past, I have suggested the exact change that you say would be a bad idea. But if this is a bridge too far, maybe the entire idea of the mori needs a more substantial rethink? To come at it from the idea that this specific line of action (the killer pressing a button to execute a unique animation that removes a survivor from the game extremely early) needs to keep existing in roughly the same fashion, simply because that's the way it's always been, is not the only sensible solution.
Stuff like Devour Hope and Rancor is a little different, because they don't happen immediately, and there is counterplay to them. You have a chance to play the game and potentially react to them, as opposed to getting tunneled out in three minutes if you're the first one caught in a mori match.
And "getting mori'd is free clearance to move on to the next game" is super-circular logic, when the mori's presence is the entire source of the problem. It can't be the solution to a problem of its own creation.
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I specifically mentioned keys in my original post so that I didn't have to reply to comments like this one. Read the whole thing, please.
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I'm not interested in this kind of weird bargaining talk, since I'm not a developer and I don't understand why people make these kinds of posts.
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Hatch can be used to skip up to 100% of a survivors goal if used, and 5/6 if closed.
While only requiring to be the last one standing. Without the need to spend BP in the web.
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I generally never use mories unless i have a dailly
But after seeing your comparrison to throwhing a grenade into the match i might try them more. Sounds like fun
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That might be true,but changing the requirement to only 4 hooks can lead to situations in which a survivor gets moried without being hooked once before.
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Hatch + keys is also a problem, but that's a different discussion that is beyond the scope of this thread. Hatch as last survivor standing is an edge case, since it's heavily luck-based (you have to find it first) and there's counterplay (killer can slug or close the hatch).
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Keys might be unfair aswell,but they aren't nearly as strong as moris are.
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Mori is not the issue neither are keys it’s a scummy players you can remove Mori all you want won’t change how people are if they aren’t doing that they are most likely just camping or tunneling you so instead of saying boohoo I’m mad remove this think of ways to improve the game mechanics rather then cry cuz do you think the devs really take these types of post too seriously?
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So does Devour Hope and Rancor, which people generally accept as fine. Making the req 4 hooks is quite literally one less than DH, except not removable, without the instadown at 3. Really not that much different at that point.
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I agree that the issue with face camping, extreme single-minded tunneling, etc. is ultimately players who aren't engaging with the intended game flow in good faith. I don't think that the game mechanics do enough to significantly prevent or at least deter these behaviors, and what I meant by "sanctioned griefing" in my original post is that moris are actually a cudgel given to these players by the developers for this exact purpose, which cuts to the heart of my issue with their current implementation.
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My point was if you whine and get heated devs will not read your post you need to post something like Fix Moris to dead hook and key to one person only so that the scummy players can’t abuse them not just say remove it all together
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Thing is you’re bitching about moris shifting the goal post but keys do the same thing it’s as bullshit as moris, I only use moris against other bullshit mechanics example keys someone brings a key I bring a more or blendettes I see one I bring a mori for her ass because she knows damn well she’s abusing the model and clothing of a character to be hard as hell to see
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My original post spells out the issue in specific terms (the mori is a net negative for all sides because it deletes 33% of life states and ensures lower killer earnings post-match). The tone is perhaps a little annoyed, but I think I stated my case clearly.
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I mentioned keys in my OP so that I didn't have to reply to these. Please read the entire post.
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Naw fam I’m good don’t bring up a topic to begin with without highlighting all the major bullshit crap that survs can do especially blendettes
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I've seen that video. It was insane to watch.
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I mean, I did? I did highlight the other thing that I think is an equivalent major issue, which is keys.
Not gonna plush back against you taking issue with annoying cosmetics, but there's a false equivalency between these two things (Claudette's dark clothing and the mori mechanic), because one terminally impacts the entire game state and one is a surmountable inconvenience that doesn't crack the match in half.
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