The Change To Balance All Levels of Play: Dying State 2.0

DarkWo1f997

I’ve owned the game for 13 days and when I found out that injured survivors don’t lose health when the bleed effect triggers, I was disappointed. Hold on, hear me out. 

So here’s the quick reference guide for the change. It’s very extensively thought out, so you’ll need this to navigate. 

1.) Reason For Suggesting This Change

2.) “Bleed Out Bar” Change

3.) Healing and Recovery

3.5) First Aid Revamp to Further Balance the Mechanic 

4.) How it is Balanced

5.) Unconscious Status Effect

6.) Dying State Correlation 

7.) Unconscious Status Effect Checks and Balances

8.) Counters to the Bleedout Rework

9.) No Mither 2.0

10.) Last Survivor Standing (Hatch Phase) Adjustments.  

11.) Survivor Benefits

12.) Killer Benefits

1.) So why do we need this change you might ask? Well, experienced survivors feel completely comfortable running off on their own and purposely confronting and looping the killer endlessly, knowing they can take one hit without worrying. They even go as far as to literally get in front of a killer that is trying to hook a survivor because there’s simply no consequence for it when it takes two hits to start worrying about your situation as a survivor. (NOTE FOR FUTURE REFERENCE. THE KILLER WILL NOT BE ABLE TO SEE THE BLEED OUT HEALTH BARS OF SURVIVORS UNLESS THEY ARE IN A DYING STATE) 

2.) Every time a survivor gets a bleed proc, their bleedout bar will take a small amount of damage. Using a first aid kit will restore the bleedout meter, however, every time the survivor is struck AFTER being healed by a teammate, their bleed out bar will lose health faster, this is the “reopened wounds” status effect, and will work similarly to the health bar when being hooked, albeit, a much slower and less severe tick rate. (First Aid kits will reset the blood loss tick rate by using 5% of its charge) When this bar reaches zero, you will not die, but the next time you are downed, you will be put into an unconscious state, and you will not be able to crawl. The killer will  be able to hook you without a struggle or risk of you getting loose, he doesn’t have to hook you for points if you bleed out. You will have 200 seconds (may change)  for a team mate to use a first aid kit on you. You cannot be revived without one, if your timer reaches zero, you will die, and the killer will receive the same amount of points as they would for a sacrifice. 

POSSIBLE TWEAK: your bleedout bar will stop losing health the moment a killer begins chasing you  similar to the way reverse bear trap timers behave  

If the killer stays within a 10 meter range of the unconscious player, their hud will disappear and they will no longer receive notifications of survivors who fail skill checks or complete generators, (this 10 meter range still applies even when the killer is carrying an unconscious survivor) and on top of this, all survivor actions will be 50% faster when the killer is within the radius, encouraging the killer to move away from their helpless victim instead of camping, giving altruists a chance to save their fallen friend. 

If they are hooked whilst unconscious, the entity will not intervene when the hook timer reaches 50%, but instead continue the slow timer on the hook. The unconscious timer will remain halted while hooked. Upon being unhooked they will need to be revived by a first aid kit. 

3.) If they have a bleedout meter to worry about, they will have to use first aid more, (25% charge of a health kit consumed to stop your bleedout and restore the bleedout bar slowly over time, 50% for those with mangled status effect) and in order to save first aid, they need to have a partner who can heal them without first aid kits since anyone can do it, and it can be used infinitely. Forcing them to to stay together, knowing their only source of infinite and reliable recovery is their team. (NOTE: SELF AID WILL ONLY STOP THE BLEEDING EFFECT, ONLY TEAMMATES AND FIRST AID KITS CAN RESTORE THE BLEED OUT BAR.)

3.5) An alternative for the first aid consumption is to drain the first aid kit to restore the bleedout bar. In other words, if you are at 82% on your bleedout bar, you will use 18% of your health kit. Either of these could work. With mangled causing either a slower heal rate or twice the amount of percentage charge required to heal the same 18%. 

HOWEVER, survivors can only restore 25% of their teammates health bar without any items. Meaning they need to heal their team mates four times to fully restore them from an empty bar. This will buy the killer time to damage generators, break pallets, and resume patrolling; and leave the survivors inactive and vulnerable to attack who are trying to fully recuperate eachother to reserve first aid kits, or they can use first aid kits to completely restore themselves much faster at the expense of a first aid kit charge. 

4.) This takes a HUGE amount of pressure and stress off the killer to the point where there’s no need to be frustrated at having to leave a wounded survivor mid-chase to chase someone else who is healthy, because that survivor will be bleeding out, and the killer is doing damage and applying pressure without needing to finish them off right away. Diminishing resources and decreasing their chances to stay split up with every injury inflicted.  It’s a sense of progress and meaning to the killer’s actions towards survivors. They now know that it’s no longer just about those hooks. The process is fun! 

The survivor also cannot infinitely loop, as they know they will bleed out and be susceptible to a near instant death. if they don’t retreat and recover.The killer can actually take a breather and feel comfortable enough to leave hooks, patrol generators more often, and just enjoy

the experience much more and feel more empowered and equal to the survivors in terms of capability and control. 

5.) So with this new 10 second timer for a downed survivor who has had their bleedout bar completely drained, if they bleedout, they will go unconscious, allowing the killer to get a struggle free hook, and it will take twice as long to unhook an unconscious survivor. They will also remain unconscious until a first aid kit is used on them.  and remain on the ground. If the survivors fail to get to the unconscious player before the killer does, and the killer has grabbed the survivor, they will not be able to save the player unless they stun the killer with a flashlight or pallet, and wake up the unconscious player using a first aid kit. 

6.) However, players who are actually in a dying state, will have the bleedout bar begin draining at the same charge it was at before going down. Meaning if they were injured and bled for 50% of their bleedout bar, and they are caught and struck down, they will have 50% left when in a dying state. If their bleedout bar reaches zero when in a dying state, they will die, rewarding the killer with no points just like it is now. Forcing the killer to hook each survivor instead of leaving them in the dying state knowing they have about three minutes to come back and hook them. Now, they either hook, or suffer from no point gains towards their emblem since bleedouts don’t count. 

7.) A player can only go unconscious if their bar reaches zero before being downed. Sloppy butcher will make bleeding out slightly quicker depending on the perk level. The timers and tick rates will not need to be modified as this system will work with the wounded and bleeding features already in the game, the only thing that needs to be done, is to figure out how much health should be lost on each tick per rank.

For example, not having sloppy butcher, will have the normal slow bleeding tick rate, and grant much more blood loss per bleed tick than sloppy butcher rank 1, and rank 2 is more frequent but deals slightly less damage per tick, with rank 3 offering the most frequent bleeding, but the lowest damage. This way, killers will need to make a choice. More damage, less tracking capability, OR, less damage, more tracking capability, and higher first aid consumption due to mangled status effect. 

The time to wake up an unconcious player is five seconds. The player will be in an injured state and require immediate first aid , or the next time they go down, they will be killed instantly, and the killer will be rewarded the same amount of points for a sacrifice kill. (this is just a concept for the points, it’s subject to change however the devs see fit). 

8.) How can survivors counter this? By communicating, and sticking in teams of two, they can always patch eachother up, and save their first aid items for when things go bad, but their main priority will be their team. 

9.) How will No Mither and being the last one alive work? No Mither will completely bypass the bleed out effect and ignore it. This will encourage David King’s already confrontational play style and work perfectly with it. Optional changes include an increased recovery rate, faster ally healing speed, and max number of hooks before death being increased to 4. 

10.) being the last survivor standing can either ignore the bleedout mechanic entirely, or reduce damage over time taken by 25% whilst bleeding. 

11.) here are the advantages for survivors that this mechanic brings. 

• Significantly less tunneling incentive
• Highly discouraged hook camping 
• A more engaging survival horror experience
• Incentive to play as a team and communicate
• A much needed challenge for long timers and experienced players alike
• Target priority will be distributed more evenly between your team
• Expect to be face camped a lot less
• First aid kits are just as viable as tool boxes now
• Teammates will be less reckless
• Increased immersion
• Sense of over-empowerment removed for good 
• A much more balanced fight 

12.) Here are the advantages that this update brings to the killers 

• SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED STRESS
• SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED FRUSTRATION
• Pressure to continue chasing injured survivors heavily reduced
• Over all enjoyment increased
• Will now be safe to change targets freely
• No more endless loopers
• No need to guard hooks anymore
• Survivors can no longer bully you easily
• Time wasting tactics can no longer work forever 
• No longer feel at the mercy of the survivors mistakes 
• Now a much fairer fight
• All killers become much more viable and effective
• Gen rushing will no longer be as effective, making it a viable and balanced play style to compete against
• No longer do hooks define your effectiveness 
• No need to slug survivors nearly as often anymore 

xxaggieboyxx

Not to be rude but you must be new here. You think the devs would even consider this? Not really because it's a bad idea, it's a good idea I like it but I don't see the devs changing core mechanics of the game this far into it 

DarkWo1f997

Yes I’m new. Figured it would possibly be futile but just in case there’s a very small chance, it’s worth it. 

DarkWo1f997

EDIT: self aid perk will stop the bleedout status effect, but will not restore the health of the bar, only teammates and first aid kits can restore that. 

Unknown

This content has been removed.

M2Fream

Its too complicated.

I think sloppy butcher should be changed to a very rare perk and affect dying bleedout time by 5/10/15%

I also think Knock Out should affect hooked survivors

Wolf74

Very good direction of thinking.
Some mechanics would need tweaking and simplification, but in general this is a very good idea.

DarkWo1f997

M2Fream said:

Its too complicated.

I think sloppy butcher should be changed to a very rare perk and affect dying bleedout time by 5/10/15%

I also think Knock Out should affect hooked survivors

How is it too complicated? Its a simple concept that’s explained extensively to prevent any misunderstanding. It seems like a lot but to really not. 

DarkWo1f997

Wolf74 said:

Very good direction of thinking.
Some mechanics would need tweaking and simplification, but in general this is a very good idea.

Thank you, it makes me very happy to know that I’ve only gotten positive feedback from the community so far on this. I’m glad this is getting somewhere. Hopefully the devs see it! 

Wolf74

Actually when I started playing DBD and maining killer, I also thought injured survivor would drop down at some point.
I also believed that Sloopy Butcher would really speed up dying on the ground.
Man was I wrong.
Those things seemed only logical to me.

DarkWo1f997

Wolf74 said:

Actually when I started playing DBD and maining killer, I also thought injured survivor would drop down at some point.
I also believed that Sloopy Butcher would really speed up dying on the ground.
Man was I wrong.
Those things seemed only logical to me.

Same I’ve had the game 16 days and was really shocked to find that bleeding actually had no effect other than cosmetic for tracking, and even then it’s not very helpful. 

White_Owl

The idea per se is not bad, but it has the problem of forcing survivors to use medkits (which can be totally countered by Franklin's Demise) instead of other items, and it's a huge "######### you" to solo survivors while SWF would do just fine. Forcing team play in this game is never a good idea.

DarkWo1f997

White_Owl said:

The idea per se is not bad, but it has the problem of forcing survivors to use medkits (which can be totally countered by Franklin's Demise) instead of other items, and it's a huge "[BAD WORD] you" to solo survivors while SWF would do just fine. Forcing team play in this game is never a good idea.

Well getting in the killer’s face and getting hit instead of being stealthy is a huge screw you to the killer. I don’t think running around like a power ranger is how the game is supposed to be played. But we have just come to accept it because it’s been there for so long. The game’s tutorials even specifically tell you to stay hidden, and yet, it’s all about juking. 

If anyhing, we are restoring this game to it’s original image with this change, and thus I will continue to push for this. 

DarkWo1f997

@not_Queen @Gay Myers (Luzi) @Patricia @Clyde @MandyTalk could you guys give this thread a read? I’m very confident in it and I’ve spent eight hours thinking this through as carefully as possible. 

This change is is by no means one sided, I play both sides and would like this as a survivor as well.

You are free to disagree and be as honest as possible about it.  I won’t be offended, you know better than anyone what could and couldn’t work. 

 I know you guys are busy, and I feel guilty trying to grab your attention,  but so far I’ve gotten 99% positive feedback on this. 

I love this game, and wish I had the skills, knowledge, and privilege to work on it alongside you all. 

NMCKE

@DarkWo1f997 I like the idea of this! If the developers could add some cool screen effects then survivor would be a lot more interesting and playing killer won't be as stressful. Additionally, I like how this idea incentives more better and fun gameplay for both sides!

DarkWo1f997

Nickenzie said:

@DarkWo1f997 I like the idea of this! If the developers could add some cool screen effects then survivor would be a lot more interesting and playing killer won't be as stressful. Additionally, I like how this idea incentives more better and fun gameplay for both sides!

So glad you think so!  

If you want to help it reach the devs,  you can by tagging them on this post! 

NMCKE

DarkWo1f997 said:

Nickenzie said:

@DarkWo1f997 I like the idea of this! If the developers could add some cool screen effects then survivor would be a lot more interesting and playing killer won't be as stressful. Additionally, I like how this idea incentives more better and fun gameplay for both sides!

So glad you think so!  

If you want to help it reach the devs,  you can by tagging them on this post! 

@Peanits @MandyTalk

Look at this amazing post!

@Patricia

S'il vous plaît regarder cette!

DarkWo1f997

@Nickenzie thanks friend.

PhantomMask20763

@not_Queen Do you think we could see something like this implemented in-game?

DarkWo1f997

PhantomMask20763 said:

@not_Queen Do you think we could see something like this implemented in-game?

You guys are great.

NMCKE

DarkWo1f997 said:

PhantomMask20763 said:

@not_Queen Do you think we could see something like this implemented in-game?

You guys are great.

I'll keep bumping this thread to the top for you! I will also bump up the thread that has the link to this thread as well!

DarkWo1f997

Nickenzie said:

DarkWo1f997 said:

PhantomMask20763 said:

@not_Queen Do you think we could see something like this implemented in-game?

You guys are great.

I'll keep bumping this thread to the top for you! I will also bump up the thread that has the link to this thread as well!

Thank you so much. It means the world to me.  If the devs end up seeing this it’ll be good for everyone.  This I know. 

Wolf74

I think if you just bump it is against the rules.
Just TALK about the stuff.

DarkWo1f997

Wolf74 said:

I think if you just bump it is against the rules.
Just TALK about the stuff.

Tagging the devs is definitely the way to go. 

UncannyLuck

This doesn't work at all for solo play, and sounds unfun to play as even with SWF. Once a survivor goes unconscious they're effectively dead. Doubly so if they're hooked. Franklin's Demise destroys every team unless they play ultra immersed, which they will have to because they can't "win" chases anymore. Every chase is a death sentence since good luck losing a competent killer.

These changes heavily discourage altruism despite claiming to promote it, again because taking a hit is a death sentence. Your last survivor change won't work because killers will just leave the other survivor unconscious like they do now for the hatch.

This is not the way to go, not in the slightest.

NMCKE

Wolf74 said:

I think if you just bump it is against the rules.
Just TALK about the stuff.

Oh, um, well... Crap, I'm just gonna hit this button then! Activating Excuse Protocol Version 237... Loading...

Oh, I mean that since I'm talking about the thread, it's gonna bump it up! Nothing fishy about that right?

DarkWo1f997

UncannyLuck said:

This doesn't work at all for solo play, and sounds unfun to play as even with SWF. Once a survivor goes unconscious they're effectively dead. Doubly so if they're hooked. Franklin's Demise destroys every team unless they play ultra immersed, which they will have to because they can't "win" chases anymore. Every chase is a death sentence since good luck losing a competent killer.

These changes heavily discourage altruism despite claiming to promote it, again because taking a hit is a death sentence. Your last survivor change won't work because killers will just leave the other survivor unconscious like they do now for the hatch.

This is not the way to go, not in the slightest.

It sounds to me like you prefer to be spotted by the killer. All I ask is a chance. The bleedout timer is incredibly long. It would take you a full five minutes from start to finish without heals. Medkits bring health back, and it is a stealth game. 

You’re fighting for your survival, you aren’t supposed to be the dominant force in the match. I suppose pallets could respawn if the change is that bad, but I assure you it will only yield positive results. 

If chases are already a death sentence, then don’t get caught. The idea is that the killer will be incentivized to stop chasing you after the first hit so you can begin bleeding out. 

It gives you more rebound chances, and what you are describing to me sounds like rank 10+ play. Chases are not a death sentence, it is so easy to lose a killer if you use urban evasion and sprint burst. Those two perks combined are meant for the survivor that doesn’t like relying on pallets. 

Franklin’s Demise is not overpowered and I promise it doesn’t destroy an SWF team, thats the funniest thing I’ve read in the past 6 months.  An unconscious survivor is not effectively dead, the killer will be heavily punished for remaining in proximity of the survivor in need of medical attention.  

Youre throwing claims without any proof or evidence and I’m sorry but as a survivor and killer player, I disagree with you. Self care stops the bleeding, you can’t cut off people’s hands with Franklin’s. 

It would create very very interesting gameplay where survivors will drop their med kits somewhere safe and return for them when they need health. 

Talented survivors can troll the killer for the entirety of a match in one chase. So yes, survivors CAN win chases. Faking your direction of travel with scratch marks and hiding behind objects is how you are supposed to do it. 

UncannyLuck

What proof or evidence am I expected to have about a hypothetical game mode? What proof or evidence do your have for your claims? That's a ridiculous request.

As for my unconscious survivors being effectively dead - tell you what: start up a KYF match and follow the rule that after rescuing someone you both have to stay at the hook for 5 seconds. You can't start healing until that time has passed. Then, after if they get hit they have to DC if you don't get around to healing them. I say KYF because it will be important that the killer is aware of how it works too.

I assumed that you'd remove self care with these changes because otherwise you've turned it into a literal must-run perk.

Franklin's with these changes will be very strong because it sounds like you've balanced around the assumption of them being required.

Dropping off med-kits doesn't sound like interesting gameplay to me, or doesn't sound interesting enough to justify these changes.

Killers are still incentivized to get at least a down in this scenario, since it will run the bleedout timer and prevent self-care. We actually might see slugging become meta again in that case. Actually, that's probably the smartest thing to do with these changes since hook stages don't really matter anymore.

Chases are not currently a death sentence. With these changes they become one though unless you play flawlessly (since, again, I assume these changes also kill self-care). Even the best survivors get found, take hits and get put on hooks. The worst survivors have all these happen frequently. In this world, getting hit means you've got to get away from the killer and then find someone to heal you in 5 minutes or you're out.

Basically, I stand by my original statement. None of these changes sound fun. A lot of perks would have to be rebalanced as would abilities of killers. Being left unconscious on the ground while the killer goes to look for the last survivor doesn't sound fun (and isn't fun when they do slugging, but at least I can crawl around like a moron while waiting for that). They also don't sound better balanced.

powerbats

What @UncannyLuck says has some merit and perhaps doing a kyf match with rules based on timers to simulate the effects described could show some problems with the idea.

DarkWo1f997

UncannyLuck said:

What proof or evidence am I expected to have about a hypothetical game mode? What proof or evidence do your have for your claims? That's a ridiculous request.

As for my unconscious survivors being effectively dead - tell you what: start up a KYF match and follow the rule that after rescuing someone you both have to stay at the hook for 5 seconds. You can't start healing until that time has passed. Then, after if they get hit they have to DC if you don't get around to healing them. I say KYF because it will be important that the killer is aware of how it works too.

I assumed that you'd remove self care with these changes because otherwise you've turned it into a literal must-run perk.

Franklin's with these changes will be very strong because it sounds like you've balanced around the assumption of them being required.

Dropping off med-kits doesn't sound like interesting gameplay to me, or doesn't sound interesting enough to justify these changes.

Killers are still incentivized to get at least a down in this scenario, since it will run the bleedout timer and prevent self-care. We actually might see slugging become meta again in that case. Actually, that's probably the smartest thing to do with these changes since hook stages don't really matter anymore.

Chases are not currently a death sentence. With these changes they become one though unless you play flawlessly (since, again, I assume these changes also kill self-care). Even the best survivors get found, take hits and get put on hooks. The worst survivors have all these happen frequently. In this world, getting hit means you've got to get away from the killer and then find someone to heal you in 5 minutes or you're out.

Basically, I stand by my original statement. None of these changes sound fun. A lot of perks would have to be rebalanced as would abilities of killers. Being left unconscious on the ground while the killer goes to look for the last survivor doesn't sound fun (and isn't fun when they do slugging, but at least I can crawl around like a moron while waiting for that). They also don't sound better balanced.

Evidence as in, explaining how
mechanics that we are familiar with, would be affected, and how things would have a negative impact, which you did. 

I dont understand the KYF example but I’m going to go ahead and explain the possible changes here because disagreements in debates are always healthy. 

- Unconsious state removed, players will instead be killed instantly on the next hook unless they are given first aid to restore their number of hooks until death to what it was before entering the black and white stage. 

- Franklin’s Demise only drops items on survivor down, not survivor hit

 - Using three first aid kit charges stops the bleeding. 


So where can we go from here?