Why does everyone complain about second chance perks?
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Why not just stream some killer gameplay? Preferably high rank but I mean...
It's so easy why not play it?
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I understand gen rush problem or lets say if the killer tunnel when theres 0 or 2 gens left with all 4 survivors still alive it maybe understandable for me. But tunneling when theres 4-5 gens left, Sometimes even Hex: Ruin still exist in the match, There is no excuse for this.
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The majority of them are too rewarding for very little effort. When they are stacked it is non stop feels bad moments.
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my main issue is that they punish the killer for playing around them. Someone who sucks at looping but has DS, well, if I target you because you're in my line of sight a little too early, not to mention if you're one of two of the same Nancy skin in the lobby, the only way for me to not waste my time is to figure out youre the Nancy I hooked and let you go, which loses me time, or ear your ds, which loses me time, or slug you and wait, allowing you to use UB or get healed, literally any counter to the perk, when its active, punishes the killer. And it shouldnt be that way. BT isn't bad, I don't gk for the unhooked surv right away. But if you get saved, I hook another surv, and find you again? Sorry, but I wasnt tunneling, I don't have a ton of momentum or pressure, you shouldn't be given a second chance. BT is just "hwy you can't get downed off the hook" and half of the time, when I see it, im running STBFL and I can just say "hey free stax thx" and move on. Unbreakable, for that endgame slug off, yeah, its not too annoying, i think its about necessary. But DS just makes me angry, and Dead Hard needs to be looked at for sure, because at the end of the day, it really is an "oh crap" button press to undo a mistake you made, and thats not fair. If im chasing you for a minute, and finally get you in a position to go down, you shouldn't be able to use DH. There should be some form of mitigation for it, like a timegate. If you're chased for X amount of seconds, it cannot be used, kinda deal, or give it a token use and make it usable anytime. That way at least once you do it once or twice, youre stuck, and allows counter play. "Oh ive been chasing you for too long, you wasted one of your DH, ill see you later" and move to another target. Idk. Just me tho.
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If you don't wanna get hit with DS don't tunnel if you don't wanna get hit with a Borrowed Time don't camp if you don't wanna see Unbreakable quit slugging and hook them it's that simple apply more pressure but going after everyone and not slugging so that way gens don't get done and no Adrenaline wait out the Dead Hard
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Because they take zero skill or effort to activate AND nullify a potentially enormous amount of effort by giving someone that made a mistake, which should be punished, a free second chance.
It's not necessarily about the power, but what they represent. They nullify hard work and take no skill to use, no shite people don't like them. It doesn't feel good to have some arsehole jump off the hook and yank down their teammate. It doesn't feel good to have a bunch of arseholes hook bomb you. It doesn't feel good to have a bunch of people group up, only to have Unbreakable and/or Soul Guard undo their terrible strategising. It doesn't feel good to get NOED camped.
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I don’t have a problem with the perks themselves it’s the survivors tho they get way too big of an ego and it ruins the game especially if they get downed through all of their crutches and they dc
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i believe bt and ds are fine. its a counter against tunnelers, campers, proxy or whatever you wanna call it it gives the survivor a chance to get away and not die within the first few mins of a match. its true that not everyone saves properly but if they know how to use and are running bt theyre gonna wait for a terror radius or till the killers far gone typically. and you dont have to necessarily lose the chase intentionally.. yea its on a timer but if it was like old ds then that would be a whole other argument. tbh it seems like you dont like bt as randoms who save you just screw you over and ds as the timer runs out just before u get knocked finally but its just whats gonna happen
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I just had someone I was surviving with that was farming off hook vs a legion. When I asked why they were saving immediately and getting people downed they gave me the excuse that they didn't have bt yet and I'm not running meta perks so I shouldn't complain. I just sat there thinking, "but why?". Needless to say I was very confused and frustrated.
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There are many good survie perks, nobody runs them because they arent as good as exhaustion series, DS, and BT which have nearly no activation condition
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Because it sucks when you play well and get robbed by a perk rather than skill.
I don’t mind new DS, don’t even mind BT. Only ones I dislike are Adrenaline, Dead Hard and NOED.
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Dead hard, decisive strike and unbreakable reward you for playing bad. Dead hard is "press [] button to fix mistake" because you knew you were going to go down. Decisive on its own is fine, because slugging is a counter to it, but DS in a locker or combined with unbreakable is stupidly overpowered. Other second chance perks like adrenaline and deliverance are fine, since they reward the survivor for playing well.
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NOED is still problematic in ways I'll give you that, but who tf is running rancor (which is a weird bitter murmur that let's you mori if you haven't killed your obsession) and also maybe it's just me but enduring/spirit fury is ok but barely played
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"Rare scenarios". Just like how we tunnel when we hooked someone else and still get d striked.
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The biggest struggle in this game is the feeling of agency. It's a big part of why skill ceilings and skill floors matter so much. You can raise the skill floor of any killer but if their skill ceiling isn't high enough most people will regard it as feeling like you lack agency...which is a bad spot to be in design wise for a role that's meant to be all about being in power.
2D chance perks reduce the agency the killer has unless they play in a scummy manner which typically isn't fun for the killer nor the survivors. Personally, I don't care. I normally let a survivor lie on the ground for a good 30 seconds or so while I check the area, hit people or set up traps and by the time I decide to go back to a player most of their second chance perks aren't in effect.
Burrowed time I don't care about since it mostly counters reckless saves for the guy who deserve to suffer for it least-the poor guy off the hook-
If there's any perk I hate...it's head on...janky hit box...you can't really do ANYTHING about it because most competent survivors can leave it down to the very last second and will never be baited and 2 loops and it backs in action.
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It's the combination that is very strong. Especially during the end game. Every time when I still had my DS and got saved with BT I got out. Even with the exit on the other side of the map.
You want to slug at one gen left. One Unbreakable counters it completely, as well as Adrenaline. It only takes a Survivor who goes for the last gen and completes it in that time. All for nothing. I did this once and I coudn't even blame the Nurse for DCing.
Sprint Burst: Be outpositioned on a gen in a dead zone? No problem! Sprint away!
DH:
Press E to get dedicated.Got greedy on a loop? Made a mistake? Press E to live.Adrenaline: Why should I heal? Get the last gen already!
DS: 60s invincibility. Especially if you are next to a locker. Literally the "Get out of the prison" card during the EGC.
BT: Unhooked in front of the Killer? No problem! I don't get punished for it. I don't care if he get's tunneled. He has DS anyways.
Unbreakable: Killer wants a 4k? Killer sluggs for pressure? Not with me!
I play both sides and I can understand why some Killers don't like these perks as well as survivors who use them.
It always depends on HOW you use these perks. I for myself use DS because I hate to get tunneled (or even worse: tunnel-moried). Not to abuse it. If I use BT, I use it to get you out of the Basement vs a camping Killer, not to farm you off the hook without punishment.
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I dont run any meta perks. I am a survivor main who only plays solo Q. Most matches I get are potato survivors who dont even know how to use those perks. And when I get survivors who do know how to use those perks are usually a swf. Sometimes when I'm caught with a toxic swf I'll give the killer a free kill. I act like a potato and give them the kill. So they feel like they earned it
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Actually, I really like this idea for a killer perk.
The killer kicks up to 1/2/3 generators in a match, and if the survivors complete it within 300 seconds after being kicked it explodes at 99% and regress to 50%.
Don't like it? Just don't gen rush -- easy.
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The problem isn't that I want _that_ specific survivor, it's that as killer you don't have time to waste looking for other people.
It's all about efficiency and action economy.
Putting someone on a hook makes another survivor come to that area, so you get to know where two survivors are. You have a good idea of what gens they will be working on, and if not you can be confident that they wasted time going to a different one, so they're not too far ahead of you in the generator race.
Wandering around looking for someone to chase, hit, keep chasing, hit again, and put on a hook takes a comparatively long time, and odds are that at least one gen will pop during that time. Do that for four survivors and that's four gens.
Now remember that survivors who start together have a good chance to complete a generator before you find them, and you see why killers don't just leave you alone if you're the first one they find when they come back to investigate the unhook.
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Second chance perks themselves aren't annoying. What's annoying is when a survivor uses every meta perks under the sun then complains about the killers perks/playstyle.
As long as a survivor thinks it's normal to complain about camping and tunneling, I will think it's normal to complain about genrushing, near infinite loops, and second chance perks.
And to anyone who thinks camping isn't a legitimate playstyle. The perks I run are ruin, serveillance, and discordance together. This means I can prioritize punishing altruistic behavior while still making sure gens don't progress. Yet for some reason survivors think this is a stupid playstyle to use (even though it works very well most of the time) why exactly would I patrol gens or go to the other side of the map when I don't need to do that. Why would I go too far away when I know where most of the survivors are? If you're a survivor and complain about something like this do yourself a favor and uninstall. The killer has no obligation to go to the other side of the map and count to 60 like they're playing hide and seek. I haven't depipped a single time with this setup, so why exactly would I change to a playstyle that gives me less bp and ranked progression? Because it's not fun for you? Well sfw, infinite/near infinite loops, gen rushing, DS, borrowed time are all not fun for me. So I'll change my playstyle up when survivors stop doing all these things
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You're looking at most of them from a wrong angle. Second chance perks are perks that reward you for accomplishing nothing or have no skillful prerequisite.
Dead Hard: Injured? You can press a button to make it to a pallet you wouldn't normally make it, fix your mistake if you mess up a loop, or make it to the pallet if a killer successfully mind games you.
Adrenaline: this one is weird. I don't see it as a second chase or crutch perk, but I understand why someone would believe it.
DS: Love this bombshell. Its definitely a necessary evil since it helps with tunneling(Its an anti tunnel perk, Peanits just knows that if they acknowledge it as one then they'll have to acknowledge the abuse of it). This perk for the most part is used as a "you cant pick me up for 60 seconds. Oh you wanna slug like the forums say to do? I got unbreakable. Get outplayed." So its essentially a crutch perk. It should just deactivate when you touch a gen, heal someone, or start unhooking someone else, then I wouldn't even consider it second chance or crutch.
Unbreakable: This perk is straight up second chance. By itself it isnt too bad, but mixed with DS and there's no counter play at all. The only way to really fix this perk would be fixing DS as shown above so they cant just work on a gen in your face until they go down, get back up, then continue working on it with no fear from the killer.
Those other perks are not second chase at all and are not related to the top half.
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Because they suck. Big time.
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It's unactive for the whole trial and can be disabled easily. How is that stronger than all of those combined?
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Just gonna leave this here
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That was literally the most unsatisfying perk to play against I could think of. Do NOT use that as inspiration for a perk ffs.
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Basically the issue I brought up appears in the following perks:
DS: "Oh you went through the trouble of downing them? ######### you do it again, and also your stunned for 5 seconds."
DH: Its a reactive perk that gets used to correct a mistake. In fairness the perk CAN be used proactively and when it is the perk doesn't feel so bad. That is to say, using DH to make a play is fine, but using DH to correct a misplay feels awful as the Killer.
Adrenaline: Retroactively deletes your chase progress when used in a chase. Outside of a chase is fine.
Unbreakable: In the event of a 4 man slug this perk denies an anticipated insta-win. Without at least 3 slugged or hooked Survivors this isn't an issue and the perk is fine (psychologically speaking)
Deliverance: See above but with hooks
4%ing: same
Mettle of man: Simple "Oh you got a hit? Na just kidding". Offset by the difficulty to activate making it seem impressive rather than annoying, but still worth mentioning.
Soul guard/borrowed time: Same as MoM but without the feeling of being impressive making up for it
Sprint Burst: "Oh you got the jump on me? No you didn't". Used outside of the context of an ambush is fine.
The other exhaustion perks (head on, lithe, balanced landing) do not carry the same feeling of anticipation of reward prior to their activation, lithe in particular due to activating on a vault.
None of these "issues" are balance issues, although there are unrelated balance issues with a subset of these perks, the negative psychological effects is are not an example of a balance issue.
In the case of the Enduring effects, they can be solved with a simple nerf that causes Enduring to make the Survivor glow like they do now when struck with enduring but for the whole duration. That way the anticipated reward is not "downing the Survivor" but rather "breaking the Survivors shield".
In the case of borrowed time no further changes are needed, the perk is strong enough for a minor nerf like this to be fine. Mettle of man and soul guard may need a compensation buff. In the case of mettle of man that should be straightforward as the perk needs a buff anyways.
Solving the issue with the other perks is more complicated. Other than DS the perks moreso have the potential to be frustrating depending on when and how it's used rather than being an inherently frustrating perk. So nerfing it to be less frustrating isn't plausible without a full rework, which can only be fully justified in the case of DS.
Sprint burst can be mitigated by having it activate after sprinting continuously for 1 second instead of instantly. However similar changes to deliverance, Unbreakable ect wouldn't work.
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Plus if survivors did totems like any half decent does then most likely the perk won't even get use where as second chance perks and survivor perks in general can't simply be disabled. I think they should add some sort of survivor hex perks or affect existing survivor perks in some way so killers actually can do something like survivors can.
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Gen-rushing is usually a side effect of the killer not applying any pressure. This perk is a terrible idea. You basically condemn the survivors to death for doing basically nothing. 5 whole minutes? You literally can't lose in that time frame. Plus it's BHVR they'd never make a new good perk.
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It's basically due to the way that top level survivors, and especially swfs, play with those perks.
DS: "I have been unhooked, it's now time to do this gen that's almost done in the killer's face and sprint to a locker if he targets me, becoming invincible"
UB on its own is fine, but with DS it looks like this: "I have DS active and the killer slugged me. Killer can't pick me up so I'll UB up for free in a bit." Sometimes it looks like "Killer slugged me then chased the 2 others near me, he downed them and hooked one, now that he picked up the other one I'll pick myself up, save the other and heal. Also our 4'th was doing gens the whole time so not much lost."
BT: "I have been unhooked and the killer wasn't camping right on top of us, time to body block so he can't chase my savior. If killer downs me after I waste 15 seconds of his time for BT to end I have DS and UB to pick myself up"
Adrenaline: "Oh ######### I'm gonna get caught. *last gen pops* Nevermind, free health state and 150% movespeed. But I'll complain about noed taking away that fee health state if killer has it!"
Take any of those situations and make them planned for for SWF setups and they become exponentially worse to deal with.
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Killers do have perks that rewards injuries and downs: Knockout, Infectious, Sloppy, Thantaphobia, etc.
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I've seen Rancor a lot lately. Every Spirit seems to run it too which gives it more use time.
Spirit Fury-Enduring, while not being common, is a really cheap way to get a down.
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Second chances suck 4 to 1. Killers need perks that maim survivors via running speed or working gens. Break a leg. Break an arm. I’m a higher Rank survivor than killer. Survivors should also have a small slow down to max speed when they are constantly looking around while in a chase. Everyone has their own opinion.
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😒 the guy saying there's not many SWF players mustn't play killer much.
I'll admit one of the reasons I currently hate DS is because I can't seem to ever do it when I play survivor. I dunno if it's a PS4 bug but I'm not useless at hitting difficult skill checks usually and it looks like I've got it with DS a few times but it just never seems to register properly for me.
Other than that a SWF team running DS and BT and doing a "2 of us take turns being a martyr and trolling killer while other 2 genrush" is just a drag to play against. The unhooked survivor body blocking you trying to chase someone else because of BT is a drag. Survivors having access to perks that mean they don't have to worry about playing sloppy or even fearing the killer at all is a friggin draaaaag.
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Lots of counters to the Second chance perks.
Unbreakable: Don’t slug, in case of DS just patrol the area with Deerstalker & wait for them to get up. It’s also a one time use.
DS: Slug them until timer ends. Go after someone else. Wait outside locker if they hop into one. Lunge at them if they work on a gen in your face. Pyramid head cages. Use Huntress Lullaby perk which can make them miss the skill check. Also one time use.
BT: Stealth killers which hide TR. Perks that hide TR, Freddy, Pyramid Head cages.
Exhaustion perks: Mindbreaker & Bloodecho. Some killers have add ons that add exhaustion
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Award injuries and downs, as in, give you them. Such a perk would be ridiculous for the same reason 4x DS and 4x Unbreakable feel ridiculous. These are an incredibly powerful presence in the match that doesn't feel at all equivalent to the killers' perks or subject to the killer's counterplay.
The closest equivalent is Pop & NOED, NOED having counterplay but rewarding failure, and Pop reversing survivor objectives but requiring the killer to get a hook to do so.
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by themselves i have no issue but the problem arises when 4 survivors with 4 second chance perks. that makes it 16 "second" chances
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I can't believe people have failed to mentioned the fact that survivors also get second chances from their items too. Styptic/syringe (which were even nerfed before because they were so strong.)
You remember when a survivor could get hit into the dying state and still use a syringe ON THEMSELVES as they went down to heal back up to full HP? Even if you don't I'm sure you can imagine it isn't very fun to get hit with what's essentially a double Adrenaline after downing a survivor.
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id like to hear your idea of how ds should work to where its not making someone give up chase but rather to run away. one way i could think of it is theres a timer still but if you end up in chase again before it runs out the timer pauses and you're able to use it if you get knocked, (you loose it once picked up by another survivor from dying state) otherwise if you loose the killer it continues its timer and by then you're probably gonna be long gone and or healed
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