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2nd Chances VS Insta Downs
This is where the real comparison should be. I was reading the 50th thread this week with killers complaining about survivor second chance perks and I feel the best counter argument is all of the insta diown chances killers are given. Killers say perks like DS, BT, Unbreakable and Dead Hard reward survivors for making a mistake. Killers feel like they are cheated out of a kill when the have to hit a survivor a 3rd time before they can hook them. Well what about all the insta down powers a perks killers have? I feel cheated when I'm full health and I'm one hit by an Oni and I'm on the hook. Or vault a window and snap i'm in a trap. And while I can hit DS once a game if everything works out just right a lot of killer insta down powers last all match. The worst offender is the 'perfectly balanced' Hillbilly who can down you with his one hit saw from beginning to end with no cool down (rip). Lets look at all these unfair one hit down chances:
Base kit insta downs:Hillbilly, Cannibal, Myers, Ghost Face, Oni and Trapper (situational)
Add on insta downs: Huntress and Clown (Myers again but already in his base kit)
Perk insta downs: NOED, Devour Hope, Make Your Choice, Rancor, Haunted Grounds, Iron Maiden
Other insta down chances: Getting pulled off a Gen, Getting pulled from a locker, Getting grabbed during a hook save
So as you can see killer's have a lot of insta down chances in the game that they don't ever talk about when complaining about 2nd chance perks. So keep these in mind when a killer complains about DS or Borrowed Time being unfair. They have more than their share of get of jail free powers too.
And I know killers are going to say there is counter play to all these insta downs but there is counter play to the 2nd chance perks too.
TLDR: You can take survivor second chances perks away when you take away killer insta downs.
Comments
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i was arguing that with someone else recently.
Second chances, i.e. exhaust perks allow survivors to avoid a hit and get to a safe zone (i.e. indirectly grant survivors a health state)
Insta-down perks allow killers to prevent survivors from taking a hit and getting to a safe zone (i.e. rob survivors from a health state)
They are equivalent for each role, if someone thinks that one is unfair, they should accept that the other must be unfair too and vice versa.
Personally I don't have an issue with either.
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Here's the thing a lot of the perks for killer insta downs have drawbacks.
Rancor requires all gens to be down and is only on 1 survivor
NOED requires totems to be up
Devour requires 3 hooked survivors to be saved while you're away and the totem not to be destroyed
Make your choice the killer needs to be a little ways away from the hook
Haunted grounds punishes totem cleansing and is only for 1 minute at most which is probably 1 maybe 2 if your lucky downs
Iron maiden really isn't much use for insta downing as it's like a 10 second expose and the survivor only screams.
On to your base kit problems.
Hillbilly requires kind of precise aim with a chainsaw to hit for the instadown.
Cannibal isn't really that great of a killer and his instadown is meh at most unless he's literally right on you.
Myers is one you have to earn through stalking which can be tedious.
Ghostface again stalking so i feel it's earned if you get exposed you can also break him out of his stalking state.
Oni is also earned as you have to hit people multiple times usually to get it.
Trapper well if you walk in the trap that's on you.
Add-on insta downs.
Huntress hatchet insta downs are probably the strongest one on here, but you can have only a max of 3 with use of a belt add-on.
Clowns add-on requires you to actually hit someone with a bottle which isn't impossible or hard but might cost you more time than just using it for the slow.
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The 2nd chance perks have drawbacks and are situational too.
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Instadowns (powers) must be earned while second chance perks are used to make up for mistakes. Major difference.
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There are matches where survivors run DS, BT, Dead Hard and Unbreakable and they never get used. Because just like in your defense of the insta downs all the 2nd chance perks require certain things to happens first, they are situational.
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How does the Hillbilly earn the chainsaw power?
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He has to charge up the chainsaw allowing you to get to a window, pallet, structure that denies his chainsaw etc. Also hitting someone with the chainsaw sprint isn't too easy IF the killer has decent internet. You can easily juke the chainsaw sprint unless they're right on you for several seconds in which case you -as a survivor- messed up A LOT.
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Borrowed Time: Killer needs to be near you. If they aren't near you, you don't need the perk.
Decisive Strike: Only works off the hook. But you become unhookable for 60 seconds, even if they are on the complete opposite side of the map.
Sprint Burst: Can't sprint everywhere. But you don't really need to.
Lithe: Only works on Windows. Which are everywhere.
Balanced Landing: Only works on elevated terrain. Which isn't that hard to get to in a chase.
Unbreakable: Indeed situational, but people only really complain about it when paired with DS, where it has no counter
MoM: No one complains about it
Dead Hard: Needs to be injured. Which WILL happen in a chase, unless the Killer has an insta-down.
I think that's all of them.
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Theres a huge difference. A lot of second chance perks feel like they rob the killer. Old DS, old mettle of man, dead hard, Adrenaline etc (new DS and BT are fine)
Most instadowns are fine. Its a horror game afterall, it just adds a little extra tension.
Haunted grounds, myers, current Bubba, devour hope, make your choice. All feel fair enough with enough counter play or restrictions on them. Theres only 2 instadowns at the moment that are cheap and make the survivor feel robbed, one is Hillbillys chainsaw the other is NOED. So one is getting addressed and NOED is basically a second chance perk itself
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The difference between 2nd chances and insta downs is that one is a bonus to players who make a mistake and the other is a trade off for something else. Insta down ability's generally do not come freely. Borrowed time, DS, Sprint Burst, Adrenaline or Dead Hard have no negative affix connected with them. Unlike, No Mither or For The People which are second chance perks with built-in balance mechanics-which, in my opinion, are quite fair. With the exception of NOED, which everyone knows has direct counter play, killer's are not granted second chances. This is why killer's or people who play both sides to not correlate the two.
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As far as balance goes. Instant down powers are balanced by the design of the Killer. Usually they are harder to get than the regular down, requiring a charge time or a build up of some kind, and instant downs heavily effect the Killers power budget. Notice how Oni is the only Killer with a basekit instant down that also has strong anti-loop. That isn't a coincidence. Addons that do allow a Killer too easy access to their instant down also tend to be the most problematic balance wise, this is why instasaw billy is considered overpowered, because his instant down should be harder to land than his M1, and with basekit it is, with instasaw not so much.
The instant down addons (of which there are currently 3) ARE indeed overpowered because they lack the normal checks and balances that powers and perks (more on those) have.
As for perks, they need to be looked at individually. Currently there are 6 expose perks available to the Killer:
- Devour Hope
- NOED
- Rancor
- Make your choice
- Haunted Grounds
- Iron Maiden
There are a few things to note here:
#1 is that all of these perks are triggered by a Survivor action. 2 of them from unhooks, 2 of them from completing the final gen and 2 from misc actions.
Now, with the exception of Devour Hope and NOED (more on that in a sec) these perks effects are either telegraphed or are completely avoidable. Cleansing totems is optional, rancor gives aura reading, MYC is revealed after the first unhook and iron maiden is revealed after you first exit a locker.
Now, Survivors have 3 Endurance Perks:
- Borrowed Time
- Mettle of Man
- Soul Guard
Borrowed Time and Soul guard, in comparison to the Killer expose perks, are all triggered by Survivor actions. DS, Adrenaline, unbreakable and DH are all also triggered by Survivor actions. Mettle of man is the exception, with it being triggered by specific Killer actions, but more on that later.
Finally, there is also the matter of stacking. There is a few things about expose:
- Exposing an exposed Survivor does nothing
- Exposing an injured Survivor does nothing
- Hitting an exposed Survivor with M2 does nothing
Now if we just look at Endurance in isolation this is fine, you can't stack 2 different Endurance effects at the same instant and deep wounds makes it tricky to stack it will healing too. Other than the M2 thing Enduring has the same stacking prevention. However, Enduring isn't the only kind of second chance perk.
BT may not stack with MoM, but it DOES stack with DS, DH, Unbreakable ect, and the timing of the perks makes them unlikely to have stacking issues anyways. Whereas stacking Expose perks often has a lot of overlap making them anti-synergy where Survivor second chance perks have proper synergy.
So with the balance stuff out of the way, there is also an entirely different problem that some (not all) second chance perks have. Expectation and result disconnects.
Lets look at the actual effect of Enduring compared to Expose.
Expose:
- Survivor meets X condition (as established above)
- Survivor gains the exposed status effect
- Killer hits Survivor with a basic attack
- Killer gets payoff of a downed Survivor
Enduring:
- Survivor meets X condition
- Survivor gains the enduring status effect
- Killer hits Survivor
- Survivor gets payoff by tanking the hit and getting a speed boost
Now, while these lists look almost identical this is actually a problem. Here's why: When a Survivor is exposed they are informed that they are exposed. When the Survivor is hit by the Killer there is an expectation created by this for the Killer and the Survivor.
For the Killer hitting Survivors hurts them, and since they know their expose condition was met and they will be instant downed
For the Survivor getting hit is bad and they already know they have the exposed status effect and so they also expect to be downed
So there is no sudden frustration when they in fact get downed. Everyone knew in advance what would happen and the Killer being rewarded for hitting the Survivor would happen anyways.
Compare that with enduring:
For the Killer hitting Survivors still hurts them. Since in this context the Survivor would be injured the Killer has an expectation that the Survivor will be downed
For the Survivor however, they know they have the endurance status effect, so when the Killer hits them they know they won't go down. And they don't.
The game has built up an expectation for the Killer that they are about to be rewarded because that's what hitting Survivors does for you. But in this one case it's suddenly denied form you and you are punished instead. Unlike with exposed, the one being rewarded is given the telegraph instead of the one being punished. And that feels AWFUL.
DS does the exact same thing but just shifting the timing forwards a little bit. Adrenaline and Unbreakable don't have this issue at all and are probably only complained about at all because of their combination with DS.
Now, pop-quiz: What's the most hated expose perk in the game? Easy answer because it's NOED. So, why is NOED so frustrating to deal with? Hint, it's not because it downs you in one hit, Survivors get downed in one hit all the time without complaint while injured, just like Killers don't complain about taking 2 hits to down a healthy Survivor. It's the same problem as with Enduring.
When the Killer first gets NOED all Survivors become exposed. However unlike with other expose perks, the game doesn't actually TELL the Survivors that they are exposed. It creates the same expectation-outcome disconnect I mentioned earlier. The Survivor is healthy so they expect to tank a hit, and then they don't.
However there is another piece to this. Because Devour has the same issue, but people don't complain about Devour hope. Why is that? Because using Devour Hope is impressive. It takes 3 hooks and an extra down after the 3rd unhook, with a fast unhook negating a stack and camping isn't allowed AND you need to protect a totem the whole time. When a Survivor is eventually hit with devour hope it's not frustrating because the Killer had to put work in to earn the perk.
Neither DS, BT or even the other expose perks have that property of feeling hard earned by the other side, but you want to know another perk that DOES have that property? Mettle of man. When the Killer gets hit with MoM, while there is a moment of unpleasant surprise it is followed by being impressed instead of frustrated and for the exact same reason.
The same thing applies to gen grabs. And in the case of lockers and unhook grabs the Survivor understands that they deliberately put themselves in that situation and knew the risks, so once again there is no expectation-result disconnect to cause frustration.
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Any questions?
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Your surprise VS expectation theory is laughable. Killers know when to expect second chance perks. It shouldn't come as a surprise to get hit with DS, you see there is an obsession. And people don't mind devour hope because its impressive? To get 3 hooks? Seems like BS to me, every time. And this idea that killers earn their insta downs is a joke. I know when a Ghost Face exposes me from looking at me for a few seconds with no terror radius hardly feels earned. Yes its a horror game and I'm not suggesting we get rid of insta downs, though a lot of times it does seem jnfair. Just saying that survivors start out with the expectation of being able to take a certain number of hits in a game. Sort of like lives. Killers gave a good number of ways to take some those away. Survivors have a few ways to get some back. There is counter play to all of them. Creates a little fairness and balance.
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Oh yeah, another thing to look at (relating to the stacking thing) is how Expose generates value compared to Enduring.
Expose fulfills the same niche as anti-heal perks and STBFL within a build. Specifically these perks make the Killer less vulnerable to healthy Survivors.
Anti-heal perks do this by ensuring Survivors stay injured longer
STBFL does this by decreasing the relative distance healthy Survivors gain on hit
and Expose perks do this by treating healthy Survivors as injured for the purposes of basic attacks
That is to say, Expose is the counter to healing, if a Survivor never heals then Expose will never get value out of that Survivor nor will Anti-heal perks. STBFL will still get value because it's more versatile than that, but it will still lose SOME value.
And Survivors are absolutely capable of not healing. They can do gens, rescue teammates and escape just fine while injured the whole game, denying all instant down perks and powers their value by shear redundancy.
However, Enduring, and it's niche is different. Enduring perks, healing perks and DS serve to devalue attacks in general.
Enduring by negating a hit
DS by negating the long term consequences of a hit
and healing perks by being healthy more often
While Survivors can simply not heal in order to deny expose value, a Killer can't just not attack Survivors to deny enduring value. The Killer NEEDS to hit Survivors in order to accomplish his objective and time spent not hitting Survivors is always time that could be better spent.
What this means is that Survivors can play in a way that completely negates the entire idea of expose perks. No matter what expose perk you can think of I can counter it as Survivor by not healing and playing accordingly.
However as Killer I cannot just use a different playstyle to ignore the idea behind tanking perks. Sooner or later I have to hit Survivors. So the best I can do is play around the specific perk conditions instead, which is much more limiting.
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Ok maybe I should clarify a bit, because psychology is tricky like that.
Obviously, Killers know perks like BT and DS exist and are used. However that doesn't mean an expectation is created, at least not in the context of psychology (not to be confused with the context of strategy).
Basically, typically when the Killer hits a Survivor the Killer is rewarded and the Survivor is punished. The games dynamics all reinforce the idea that the Killer wants to hit Survivors while the Survivors want to not get hit and there are rewards associated with all of this through both the progression system, animations ect.
Now with exposed, this dynamic is upheld, and the specifics are explicitly telegraphed. There is an "oh ######### I'm exposed" moment before any instant downing events occur. The important thing is that it's the telegraph that builds the expectation. You as an exposed Survivor look different than you as a non-exposed Survivor from your own PoV simply because of the icon and sound effect. In the case of MYC, if the perk didn't inform you that you were exposed then I wouldn't say that the perk built an expectation, even if you KNOW the perk is effecting you based of prior activation, the perk still wouldn't have actually built an expectation.
A Survivor on the ground with DS looks identical to a Survivor on the ground without DS, and regardless of any perks involved the game has trained me to anticipate a hook after picking up a Survivor. And in the case of endurance it's the same deal, injured Survivors with endurance look identical to injured Survivors without endurance and the game has trained me to expect a reward after hitting a Survivor.
Contrast BT in the end game to Adrenaline in an unhook scenario. Survivor is on the hook:
- BT: Survivor is unhooked. Killer hits the Survivor. Killers hit is negated and the Killer is punished
- Adrenaline: Survivor is unhooked. Adrenaline heals the Survivor. Killer hits the Survivor. Killers hit goes through and the Killer is rewarded
Strategically speaking the Adrenaline scenario is strictly worse for the Killer. The Survivor has an extra speed boost and doesn't have deep wounds. However, at no point is the Killer actually punished in the Adrenaline scenario, because Adrenaline's payoff is before the Killer hits them while BT's payoff is WHEN the Killer hits them.
It doesn't matter if the Killer consciously knows that the Survivor has BT or not. Seeing a Survivor go from injured to still injured is still going to feel worse than seeing a Survivor go from healthy to injured. Like I said psychology is funny that way. It's all a matter of presentation.
Now there is ALSO the balance angle. But the expectation thing has less to do with what the Killer knows and more how the information is presented. If the endurance gave the Survivor a glowing shield around them that got broken by the Killers attack it would probably feel way less frustrating even if technically nothing's actually changed.
Also I'm not sure why you are bringing up GF with the impressive thing on DH. I made it pretty clear that it only applied to Devour Hope (and 3 unhooks under specific conditions while also defending a totem AND also getting a down afterwards because expose does nothing until you hit someone is a lot more work than 3 hooks, if you don't believe me then try running Devour Hope and Lullaby and compare your average stacks) and Mettle of Man as a justification for why they aren't frustrating despite their lack of a telegraph. Killer powers with instant downs are in general telegraphed, either by status effects in the case of Ghostface and Myers or a Killer specific sound effect in the case of Bubba, Billy or Oni.
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If you've ever heard of the rested bonus in WoW you'd know this is a real thing.
World of Warcraft used to have an exp penalty if you played the game too long. Players hated this, so the devs removed it.
In it's place, players would get bonus exp after not playing the game for awhile, and to compensate for this the base exp costs were increased. The same players liked this system much better.
However, the actual numbers were identical before and after the change. The only difference is that the initial exp was labeled as a bonus instead of the later exp being listed as a penalty. Solely by changing the labels the players changed their opinion on the mechanic.
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Im sorry to say this but it take a lot more skill hitting a survivor with billy, oni, etc... than a survivor landing a single skill check. I can land those skill check and i suck as a survivor.
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The difference is that not only you get to use DS and DH if everything goes well, but four people, which makes many, many second and third chances in total, with very little effort (passing a skill check or "x" or whichever letter DH is on a keyboard).
Also, many things are avoidable in terms of one hit. Oni's rage can be easily outstealthed. Does anyone take GF's insta down seriously? The other day I read in another thread that killers dont even use stalking much but just play him stealthy, as it is SO easy to deny him stalking. Different with Michael tho, depends on the situation very much, however every team should know that common group swf plays aren't effective against him and that a trial with Michael should be stealthy and ideally spread out. Traps behind windows are possible to find and destroy / avoid, esp since there are perks that make this utterly easy (even if no one plays them), making traps generally useless (in theory). Hex totems don't fit the comparison either, because many things can help making them completely useless (Totem perks, map knowledge). I don't know why being grabbed during xyz is on the list, as this is the most easily avoidable thing on the list.
The difference between all those things and 2nd chance perks is that survivors can do a whole lot about it all, if only the decide to take the time and not rush all 5 gens. The killer can't do anything about a survivor pressing DH to erase their own mistakes, way more than 2 or 3 times. And he can do even less about 4 people doing that. DH really is the worst though. For killers, DS and BT are both avoidable too, it's in the killers hands to not tunnel / camp. But DH is gonna win most chases for a good survivor or at least buy soo much time, esp during these fast paced games... look at it like this: if 4 people buy x time by lenghtening chases, it's okay to make them invest time elsewhere, e.g. finding totems.
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You know dead hard has been in the largely untouched for FOUR YEARS? You know this whole complaining about “second chance” perks has ramped up and up recently? Why?
Killers act like there’s no counter to DS, dead hard, etc. Which is ridiculous
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This isn't recent in the slightest. And I already covered why they are complained about so much.
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This just shows how much bs ds actually is, an obsession doesn't mean there is ds but only there could be ds. There are other perks which create obsession including perks of the killer. A single perk so powerful you have to expect that all have it, even when only one carries it.
Also literally every instadown there is can be negated by portable endurance.
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Dead Hard is the toughest one? I can see not expecting I t the first time in a match, but after that you gave to bait it, let the survivor use it then hit them. Sound like you may be playing too aggressively if you keep getting fooled by it throughout the match. And survivors can only use it once per chase AND only if they are injured. If they are full health DH is nullified with an insta down.
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If you down the recently unhooked survivor and you aren't at least thinking about the possibility of DS that's on you.
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Killers complain about second-chance perks but then tunnel and slug without thinking of the consequences. Dead Hard is kind of ######### so it's irrelevant.
Survivors complain about insta-downs because they are handled extremely poorly. I can understand powers being instant down methods such as with stalking and chainsaws, but perks and addons break the balance that the devs are trying to maintain. Iri head being an addon has no counterplay. NOED being a perk is extremely unbalanced.
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Is that so?
Hf playing against 4 people wearing the exact same outfit, you can down another survivor, hook him/her, repeat yet you can still be hit by DS.
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- How often are all the survivors all wearing the same outfits. Not often. 2. If thats the case you can use the names. 3. If all else fails expect it every time.
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can you not just move your camera around when doing a gen?
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All I gotta say is they are just about the same frankly DS is used to punish tunneling and even in end game if someone goes for the save you have a whole free down unless everyone bodyblocked and even then you can get a down if you tunnel that person you deserve to lose. Camp them and get another kill and unbreakable is a counter to slugging which is VERY annoying btw unless warranted I've had a game where we only did 2 GENS with bad surv rng and he slugged and only hooked to slug more until we all died. How is that fair or fun to go against. Let me cleanse her ruin or whatever before he gets here. Boom haunted grounds. Awww crap lerys well at least he has no ruin. BOOM DEVOUR! WHAT I CANT CLEANSE THE TOTEM?! yeah frankly insta downs get annoying and ghost face is the only hard insta down meyers is cheap as ######### he gets fast stalk and extra lunge and vault speed and with dedicated servers and hitboxes that lunge is deadly especially against camping and oni has so much control he is billy on steroids just slower but with the power to kill you anywhere and I had a game against a trapper with a trap that didnt let me disarm it hence why I couldn't see it or see a prompt and I inevitably hit it and make your choice just wow I go for a save just to see the killer watching the hook and it was clown at a dead zone so I was waiting for him to leave or come closer eventually he left and make your choice encourages going back to hooks making it unsafe while DS is easily counterablr and rarely has any effect and unbreakable is almost useless unless you have a flashlight teammate and even then they are slugged if they use unbreakable they wasted a strong perk and can barely start doing gens after a minute so yeah you get punished for slugging the ds but now you can do it again with no punishment and dead hard is so horrible yet good it does not work almost at all for reactions so just m1 or wait and lo and behold it does nothing and if they run into you then you know they have it and if you lunge after they dead hard you hit them and if you lunge and 360 if they go behind you you will hit them and BT well if you get screwed by BT thats your own fault
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I'm so sorry but I was in the bathroom and so much text I didnt bother punctuation but try and read that it addresses every insta down and second chance well not every but a lot and it explains the counters and situations they are used
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You said „surv only have to press a button to outplay the killer and the chase goes on...“
On killerside there are similar perks to end a chase faster while the survivor think he is in a good position, like spirit fury or bamboozle: the surv runs to a „safe“ position and drops a pallet and the killer doesn’t get much stunned or he blocks the window and the „safe“ position/ window is closed...
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Killer insta down, only works if you are near him
Only actives if your not already injured
Wow so weak
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Spirit fury alone makes a lot: of you loop a killer at a jingle gym with a pallet there’s the point the survivor drop/stun the killer and then wait for what the killer will do, and in this moment spirit fury works. To say drop pallet earlier assumes that the surv know that the killer run it, so it’s the same to say to a killer „just wait a moment for deadhard“.
And bamboozle works very good at lt-walls to get there the second hit, if the survivor doesn’t know the killer runs this perk.
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Damn @NuclearBurrito didn't come into this expecting an essay but massive props for writing one.
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I'm fine with both existing, as long as they're not on the same level as the original Mettle of Man.
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While the effort is applauded his conclusion that second chance perks are worse because killers are surprised by them is laughable. Knowing the insta down Oni is charging for you doesn't lesson the end result, I still went from full health to the hook in one hit. Conversely if you are surprised by DS or Borrowed Time then you need to pay closer attention to who you are hooking and always prepare for the worst.
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Stopped reading here: "Perk insta downs: NOED, Devour Hope, Make Your Choice, Rancor, Haunted Grounds, Iron Maiden"
Iron Maiden, lol I havenever even had it proc let alone get a kill from it, Devour Hope LOL good luck ever seeing tier 5, I have ran it one some killers TRYING to get it to proc, never ever seen it hit tier 5.
If you are using those perks as proof, you need to play killer more and run those perks, youll find you dont get much from them
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Well, those are the insta down perks. Just laying it all out. Some are better than others no doubt. Elsewhere in this thread you will see MoM, Soul Guard, Lithe, Sprint Burst and Balanced Landing discussed as 2nd chance perks.
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Very few insta-downs have just those weaknesses.
Tier 3 Myers, takes a long time to get to.
Oni, takes a long time to get to and relies on Survivors being injured.
Trapper, takes really good planning.
Billy, requires good aim.
Leatherface, can lose the chase if he messes up the chainsaw, and he has nothing else to help him.
Iri-Huntress, bullshit but still requires aim.
Iri-Clown, requires really good aim, and the hit with the bottle doesn't even result in the down.
Iri-Deathslinger, nearly impossible to hit a survivor 15M away, and even harder to get them to you from that far away.
NOED, only works if a totem is up and all gens are powered.
Make Your Choice, forces you to be away from the hook, meaning the unhooker has a head start against you. Also forces you to not pressure gens to get the insta-down.
Haunted Grounds, only works once per match, for 60 seconds, after a survivor cleanses the totem, meaning you have no control over when those 60 seconds are.
Devour Hope, takes a while to get to, with the totem being vulnerable the entire time.
Iron Maiden, sucks ass and the exposed is really short.
Rancor, only works on one guy, when all the gens are powered.
The only "free" insta-down is on Billy, Leatherface, and Iri-Huntress. Billy just got nerfed, and Leatherface has literally nothing else. Iri-Huntress IS an issue though, which will hopefully be fixed when they look at her add-ons. Compared to Borrowed Time, DS, Sprint Burst, Dead Hard, Balanced Landing, insta-downs are often way harder to pull off, or requires more luck.
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The 2nd chance perks also only work under certain conditions and are situational. Survivors can get 2nd chances but killers also have many ways to takes chances away.
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Well u see everything u listed from the killer side requires the survivors to do smth stupid in order to get insta downed. Devour is a hex perk that can be destroyed 2 seconds in the game, Oni has to charge his power so just avoid giving him free hits, Iron Maiden literally lasts for like 15 seconds, Make your choice requires the killer to go away from the hook to get the exposed and then has to find that survivor without knowing who it is. Base kit onehits like michael and ghostface require them to spend time stalking u which u can easily avoid (especially against ghostface), gen/hook/locker grabs why did u even allow them to grab u in the first place? Also trapper? rly? But i agree that Billy is just bullshit, going around the entire map in seconds and having insta down with no cooldown or downside with giant hitbox is just the most unfun ######### in the game.
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Noed is literally a hex that does nothing all game the killer is literally using 3 perks against 16 from the survivors, then add gens being done quickly since ruin got demolished by the devs now add bullshit loops that not even good killer can counter.
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And I touched on that earlier in the thread. Second chance perks are a lot less situational, and the conditions are easy to get.
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Adrenaline, BT, DS (just using these 3 as I don't have a ton of time to type) do not have drawbacks. While they do have conditions that need to be met they DO NOT have drawbacks.
Myers insta down requires you to use up time stalking and it can be wasted if you don't manage to land a hit.
Leatherface has a tantrum effect should you hit an obstacle, resulting in a tremendous amount of lost time/distance in a chase. If you do not manage to land the hit (and don't hit an object) you get a minior loss to distance and have essentially missed an easy M1 you could have had.
Billy needs to be precise (sometimes BHVR servers are questionable for both sides) where missing gives the survivor a little distance and you just lost an easy M1 you could have had instead of that missed chainsaw. You also lose a decent amount of distance should you hit an object. People seem to easily forget that if you manage to dodge 2-3 chainsaws you have basically just survived 2 M1 attacks.
Anyway there are more examples but I need to get going. My whole comment is NOT to debate if XY or Z is "over-performing" or not but rather to showcase that these insta down attacks come with disadvantages whereas the second chance perks do not. (Again I didn't go through all insta downs/perks just gave a few examples)
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The difference being that the killer's insta-downs require the killer to use them right, while the survivors are used as a shield to make up for mistakes.
The only one that's kinda on the survivor to use properly is Dead Hard, and even that can be simplified greatly by just using it for distance to reach the next loop.
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Thats kinda the problem. We complain about second chance perks because they force us to play where we have to camp and tunnel. Because when a killer downs one person that way its gauranteed 1 person out of the game. If we try and hook everyone twice before killing, it fails the vast majority of the time. So why not focus one person down? Im hitting ds and bt anyway? Might as well use them as fast as i can.
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All killers can counter loops, some far better than others. Spirit, Freddy, Nurse, and Demo all make loops unsafe or shorten them drastically. Against Nurse looping doesn't even exist.
To say 16 perks is kind of wrong considering every survivor runs Self-Care. Now 12 perks. Throw in Adrenaline and it's now 10. There's normally one Unbreakable, so 9 perks.
Original Ruin was honestly worse so I don't see the complaint. Sitting at low ranks for easy games made Ruin good, but high rank players were hitting hex skill checks all the time.
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So what I got out of this is you camp and tunnel on a normal basis and then complain about perks to help counter it.
The issue is that most killers don't even slug, they just tunnel down the person who gave them the hardest time. You're potentially ruining 1 or more people's game simply because you're mad that you got your ass handed to you. Killers then complain about egc hate messages and send them here and in the Discord acting like the victim as they "didn't do anything to receive such hate messages." The community is almost ######### COD level, but all sensitive, 10 yr old twats.
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For the first point, actually i dont really cap or tunnel u less gates are opened. Secondly i dont care what i do it is never appropriate to tell people to kill tthemselves because they killed you in a game
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There is a large difference between hate messages and death wishes/threats.
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