Deathslinger's counterplay balance discussion - what changes would you make ?
Since there's been such large amount of players claiming that deathslinger doesn't have counterplay I've decided to ask you all how would you change DS to fit your counterplay criterias.
I'd like to say that in my opinion deathslinger has counterplay which is based on predictions (a statement/action about what you think will happen in the future) just like for example nurse or spirit have, it's very difficult to predict but it is possible. Keep in mind that this thread is to discuss counterplay to his power and not his viability.
Also please refrain from any ideas that would change DS to 115% MM Killer. Those are lazy changes that suck all fun from killer's power. It's like suggesting to fix looping strong tile setups due to strong window spawns by increasing MM speed of all survivors by 3% but nerf all fast vaults into slow vaults. Such lazy changes are never good idea, keeping DS 110% with good power needs to stay.
So please when you suggest some change do your best to explain what kind of counterplay you want DS to have and how would you reach it via your suggested changes.
I'd also like to ask if @ScottJund could spare a bit of his time and partake in this discussion since he's one of the best known opposers to deathslinger's gameplay. It would be extremely helpful if he could share more of his views on this topic and possibly even give some changes that he thinks would make DS balanced. As seasoned DS main I'd really love to give my feedback if he has some ideas in mind to change DS.
Comments
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I simply can't find any flaws with Slingers power.
His chain travels at the exact same speed as a fully charged Huntress hatchet. Meaning both are equally as hard to dodge, it's based on prediction. And Slinger can't even get you at a lot of places that Huntress CAN! So what is the problem?
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My thoughs exactly, people really like to suggest for example that giving him long ADS would somehow give him counterplay when only thing it would do is limit the potencial of his shots around tight corners while counterplay would still stay the same - predictions.
I don't know what the problem is, that's why I'm asking people who have it to give some feedback.
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I think an indicator of some sort a second or two before he fires his chain, just like Pyramid Head. Maybe his muzzle flashes red or a ground indicator appears. It allows the survivor to have a chance to do something. Right now, survivors can only guess where his shot is going and with quick scoping, all you can do is weave and hope you randomly don't get hit. ScottJund makes an excellent point about why Deathslinger is not fun to play against for survivors in his video "Boring Killers" - Are Survivor Complaints Valid. I highly recommend watching it.
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But any indicator that slows down his chances to shoot doesn't change the counterplay, it only allows survivors to know that he'll shoot but they still can't react to it since it's fast and they don't know which direction he'll shoot. The counterplay is still making a prediction and even if you start dodging it's still a prediction that's needed to somehow evade the shot. Just because you know he'll shoot doesn't change current counterplay in any way, it limits his chances to shoot which doesn't require any imput from survivors so it basically isn't counterplay.
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Lower the speed of the projectile so there is a real chance to dodge it at certain distances and increase the slow down after faking take aim (so he cant fake it to force zigzag while eating your distance for free, same that happens to Huntress) as trade on make him recover faster after a reel hit and a missed shot, this would tie in with a higher number of misses from the slower spear.
Overall he would miss more but the misses would be way less punishing.
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Remove no-scoping, add a 0.6 second delay between aiming down sights and shooting. This gives room for survivors to react when Deathslinger is about to shoot. In exchange for this, there is no longer any cooldown for missed shots, and the addons that would normally affect this now reduse the delay between aiming down sights and shooting.
Add an audio que that's different from the terror radius, for when he is within proximity of a survivor, similar to the huntress's lullaby. Perhaps the auidio que can only be heard when his ammo is loaded? Or maybe add a visual que for when Deathslinger's ammo is loaded or not?
When it comes to counterplay against deathslinger, i think he has a very similar issue as the spirit, they both have the ability to zone out survivors without actually doing anything. By simply letting the survivor know your ammo is loaded, you can force them to run into dead zones in an attempt to dodge a potention shot. This is similar to how spirit can force survivors to leave any loop by just standing still.
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I honestly don't see a problem with him but the simplest nerf would just be to increase the slow to his movement speed when aiming down sights. Make him not be able to spam aiming to get free distance.
As is his projectile feels wonky to shoot and pallets are mega safe so I think he's fine.
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No matter how slow you make it, it'll still be unreactable on any distance lower then 6m which is where he gets most of his hits. Long shots aren't very realiable and are also already reactable so he would never shoot if survivor is more then 10m away due to it beeing too slow thus impossible to hit unless facing very oblivious survivors.
I think that slowdown after faking M2 would be OK change, it helps with the spamming of M2 issue so that would be welcomed. Yet still as a trade off I would suggest to add either increase for MM speed during ADS or your idea to counterweight such nerf.
Thank you for your feedback, I like the change to M2 faking but don't know how well woul work the slowing of projectile. Probably not very much.
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Honestly I'd just add a slightly better version or iri coin base..that way he shaves off some of his time waste and differs from huntress by going g for long shots..as he stands hes just weak
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I've mentioned it before but increase to his ADS just limits his options for tight shots, survivors still can't react since his shot still moves very fast so the counterplay is still a prediction like it's now. But 0,6s isn't really a huge number so it would need to be tested in gameplay to see how it would affect him.
The audio que is a fine change imao, it could work but some small buffs would have to come with it. I like the idea to give survivors more chances to hide from him especially when he's a good chase killer even when so many play him as almost a stealth killer.
The change to somehow stop M2 spam is imao the best suggestion I've heard but they don't really affect counterplay which is the main complain from the community that I've heard. I can see devs eventually adding some kind of CD after you let got of your M2 if you didn't shoot and imao it would be a good change.
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Hmm I can't agree with that. Iri coin isn't great I agree but it beiing baseline would be too much imao, especilly if it was a better version of it.
I also can't agree on the statement that DS is weak, he's very strong killer when played by someone good with him. If you think he's bad you should look up gameplay of good slingers, maybe they'll change your views of him.
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Fix his terror radius for a start.
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No they wont..numbers prove hes bad..hes got several issues thatll always keep him down
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His terror radius. Why it's still the way it is after multiple hotfixes AND the PTB I'll never know. Hmm Sounds more like fallible Dev priority. Otherwise he's pretty neat.
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People, learn to adjust to playing against different killers.
All these threads on 'alter this killer cause they have no counterplay' read as if you are saying 'please make all killers the exact same so I don't have to change my M.O. when playing survivor'
(you get the same thing the other way round from killer mains too... what the bloody blazes...)
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I really wouldn't change anything about him. I feel like people maybe haven't played as him a whole lot.
I know people complain about Monitor on him, but there's a legitimate functional reason most good Deathslingers run it. The 18m harpoon at 110%ms means survivors can gain an insurmountable amount of distance with a 24m terror radius. I've had games where survivors hardcore immersed, ran at the edge of his TR, and I spent the whole game having to run people down at 110 and snipe at long range. Monitor makes a world of difference.
I think having his 1v1 be this strong is fine. He has nothing else aside from a little stall via deep wound. His 1v4 is not in any way OP. If a Deathslinger is hitting you with every shot, they're good. It is what it is. Quick scoping on a juking survivor isn't as easy as some make it out to be. It's easy on a W gamer, but that's not a Deathslinger kit problem, it's a survivor skill problem.
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Yeah but less than 6m shouldnt be easily dodgeable, he is 110 ms its not that easy to get to that distance in loops, it would be similar to Huntress in the sense that at 6 meters its almost impossible to dodge her in open space but in loops its still manegeable, being easier than Huntress at 6 meters is a trade from being unable to hit past 18 meters like her.
I dont know maybe you are right and it needs to be something else, in any case they can always try internally several options and then chose the one they believe its the better.
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If it's bugged 100% agree. If not, make more detailed suggestion for TR change.
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Well my numbers are that I have very high kill rate in high ranks with purely him since I've git guted with him after his release. You've ofc entiteled to have an opinion, I'm just saying that he's more then a decent killer, not top tier but still good one.
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Kill rates arnt really reliable in today's dbd dont you think? The matchmaking is a disaster and all the numbers will be looking higher than normal
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That's what I think too. I can agree with some of them to a point, he's got very different playstyle if you want to properly counter his power. It requires you to make predictions or deny him LOS, both beiing pretty hard when vsing good DS.
Still, asking them what they don't like and make compromises will only help DBD's health in the long run, so here I am.
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While you say not to discuss viability, slinger is far from uncounterable or OP. He has strong 1v1, but is slow and has no map pressure. He is a strong low tier to a light mid tier killer in my opinion. Slinger has many counters, his counters are pretty similar to clown. Pre drop pallets, or loop them normally. Slinger can't get you with his gun on most loops in the game, even if he can see over them. Looking behind you can also help, and if you're going to bring up his small terror radius, use spine chill. Also slinger is one of the tallest characters in the game, meaning survivors can see him over loops, but sometimes slinger can't making mindgames hard with him.
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Reasonable but since he's not as lethal as huntress overall, mainly more consistent then her, beiing pretty much unable to earn hits 10m+ would need to come with some mobility or stall potencial as counterbuff since heightening his chase potencial would just make him broken chase wise at that point so that wouldn't be an option.
It'll be interesting if devs eventually change something about him if anything to say the least.
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I'd give him a hum radius like Huntress. Not as far as her radius. Maybe 32 meters. My only real issue is with the M&A Slingers. His already small TR with the really quiet music pretty much makes him a stealth killer.
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I see your point but I've faced some god tier level survivors with DS a few times and they had real trouble beating me. They've lasted quite well (based on which one of us predicted better) but still managed to catch them pretty fast overall. At least much faster then the likes of doc or billy would.
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A terror radius?
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Theres nothing wrong with him people just need to learn to look behind them when they run
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I agree he has counterplay and isn't OP. It's very hard to pull of counterplay but still a counterplay. Good slingers imao can make him high B tier or even A tier if they godly with him. It boils down to experience of each side and which one reads the other better + good decision making overall.
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It's suble, you need to hear well. Still I wouldn't be against increasing his TR if some buffs came to counterweight such nerf.
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True.
And... I main Deathslinger. He's one of the few killers I can out-manoeuvre as survivor, cause I got a decent feeling for when I'll have to dodge to the side or stop and move a step back/do a 90° turn even without looking behind me
I'm by no means good, but I have managed to hold my ground against some green and a red rank (only to each time run straight into them the moment I think I'm safe... )
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True, he's very stealthy right now for killer with a good chase power. Still if his TR was raised or hum was added some buff would be required to counterweight it.
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I don't know if you would need to buff him. Huntress's hum is pretty quiet. I would assume a Slinger one would be as well.
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That's the thing with DS, to counter him (via predictions) you need to know how he thinks/plays. Many survivors are clueless against him since they've never played him enough to know how he works so they don't know how he operates thus can't be in his mind to make any solid movements at correct times.
People who've mained/played DS enough have much better understanding of whe he'll shoot since they know the optimal times when they would shoot themselfs. Ofc it dosen't suddently make you god when vsing deathslingers but it helps a lot.
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I'm not really asking for huge buff since hum is quite small change but something small like extra 1-2s on mending or 0,25s lower CD on miss etc. Depends on how much worse it would make his approach, if by a lot then bigger buff, if not very much then a small one.
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Billy maybe..he was way more vulnerable than people assumed..but..how dare you challange my doctor XD
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Just an example, I'm certain great docs are very hard to loop but doc's power is still in my eyes at least, weaker anti-loop tool then DS's redeemer. I'm not a god doc but I play DS pretty well and he can counter quite a few loops if you know the techs.
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As someone who loves DS but understands how he can be annoying to verse the same way spirit is, here are 2 things I would introduce.
Longer reload on missed shots and chain breaks, add a buff to speed up a reload on successful hit while reeling in.
And 2nd thing, to make being in ADS actually have a point instead of 24/7 quick scoping. Make it so, chain has very low durability if quick scoping. Saying in ads increases endurance/durability of the chain, so survivor has to struggle harder to get free.
Thus, quick scope would have ~1/4 of the current chain durability, good for short range shots to secure survivor just around the corner, while fully charged ADS increase to 150-175% of current value.
Optionally make a "forced lullaby" at 24m, similar to the Huntress, it doesnt need to be as intrusive nor audible for the killer. Make it also be decreased by the addons that lower TR but not affected by the m&a.
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The slinger isnt clown tier..but he falls apart because his chase tool takes too much time..and no msp pressure tool at all..all hes really got is his stealth
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I would argue that first change would scare off new players trying to learn him but I presonally don't see it as a bad thing overall. It just makes it harder to recover as him if you miss a few shots which is kind of fine imao especially if he would be compensated by faster reload on succesful hits. Nice trade off for good players but feels a bit like what happened to nurse.
Your idea about quickscoping is good but you need to understand that if you make his quickscope chain too weak it's creating a scenario where DS has to hold his aim to even get a chance for a reel in before survivors just run out of LOS making outplaying windows/loops near impossible since survivors will just run out of your LOS before you get enough charges for the reel in. It would need a lot of testing so that it's not punishing DS for having good reactions, aim and knowledge of properl reeling around loops which has very narrow timing and depends on every charge the chain has. It would need a lot of work to not make him useless and in the end it just might not change anything or make him worst killer in the game if it removes his chance to outplay loops. Overall it's very creative idea but it would need a lot of work to make it balanced.
The forced lullaby appear a few times and I agree that such mechanic would be fine addition to DS's gameplay but needs a few small compensatio buffs since he's losing out on a few stealth hits he would otherwise get.
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His chase tools are more consistent then around 80% of the killer roster in terms of getting hits. They themself might not be fast but their utility is very high if used correctly. Paired with perks to cover his weaknesess and good decision making can make even the best survivors struggle hard to beat good slinger.
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See..theres the issue..time..that's the crux..the one weakness a killer cant afford..see trapper for reference..any killer that isnt time efficient or have good slowdown will just..drop off hard at the top..issue is..I have no idea how to improve him without adding a pressure tool of sorts
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See, even when his reeling, attack CD etc takes a while compared to like huntress who chains hits very fast, he saves time by getting them earlier then she ever could. In the end he gain more time overall because he gets more chances to earn hits before huntress can so he's actully time efficient. Ofc that applies when you are good with your shots and don't miss much otherwise you lose a lot of time but you can spread the damage more thanks to deep wounds buyin you time.
His preassure come from mainly 2 things, you either are god at chases and down people so fast they just aren't able to keep up with you or you defend part of the map where gens aren't too spread so you aren't as punished by your slower MM speed and CDs. He has ways to apply very strong pressure even without mobility but it all boils down to how fast can you find survivors and how fast can you down them. If you're great DS swith good perks and capitalise on all your chances even SWF death squads are beatable. Ofc a lot RNG comes into playing DBD, the map, the loops spawns, the gen spawns etc so that affect things just like with all killers.
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>deathslinger doesn't have counterplay
laughs in looking behind while running
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I dunno how to change him without ruining him. I also enjoy going against him, don't struggle with the terror radius and almost never see him anyway so it's not something I've thought about much.
I think just as an accessibility thing more than anything else people should have the option of hearing terror radii as default, that could disadvantage you as well though (doc, mainly)
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But your forgetting one important detail...on top of everything else hes the only slow killer with almost no pallet punish..if the loop has any safety at all a pallet is a force field while huntress can burn pallets for free..Sure it's possible to punish with slinger but every tree, every rock, every obstacle is a potential free get out for your target..huntress it's your hit, your damaged, no middle man..no extra steps..now slinger has some very cheeky shots he can do like haddonfield fences but that's about all he has over her
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I seen a post from someone that said keep instant ads but a 1-2 second wind up but in addition to that he cant instantly unads until that windup before he shoot.
Also had zubat do a 1v1 with another person that Claimed deathslinger had counterplay and the outcome was the longest chase was 30 second 1st to 2nd hit.
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Looking back doesn't give you any information. You can't anticipate, much less dodge, a quickscope. You can zig-zag but that allows Deathslinger to quickly catch up to you and M1, since he's walking straight the entire time. Plus zig-zagging doesn't prevent him from hitting you, it just makes it a little harder to hit you.
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My man, it is clear you don't know enough about DS, no offence but he can punish pallet pretty hard, even some of the safest ones like shack can be outplayed even after it's dropped. Not many killers can outplay pallets as much as DS can. Yeah there are some that are really hard or even a few that he can't outplay but he can definetly get hits over pallets.
Also to your note on on rubble that breaks the chain. Good slingers get robbed of their hits very rarely by trees etc since they know how to reel in a way so that trees etc can't break your chain and mainly when to go for shots so that there's as few obstacles for the reel in.
Another note on the cheeky hits, he's the god of them. You can get insane hits through walls and if you know the techs for them you can even use many holes for not just chain breaks but for downs.
You really should go watch good slingers to understand where I'm coming from. I don't really want to self advertise but I'm actually rather high ranked slinger in the leaderboard and I've recently made a channel so if you're interested why I find DS to be really good killer you can check out my gameplay. I'm not a god DS becasue my playstyle is to go for as many shots as I can affor since I loves shooting even at lost of lower hit consistency and risk of missing but still my gameplay is pretty good.
Here is the link if you're interested:
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I've already made a few responces that I can agree that CD for ADS cancel to prevent M2 spam would be good change but any all other suggestions to somehow limit quickscopes are imao a bad change since they don't change the counterplay but only limit DS's opportunities to land a shot without any action from survivors.
I've seen that thread and it's one of those silly 1v1 me to prove a point. Only thing that it proved is that if played by a great killer DS is very strong chase killer, not that he doesn't have counterplay.
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If they nerf him, he becomes the weakest on console because it is already hard aiming with a controller compared to how easy it is to dodge..
So... Gen rush as always.
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