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This forum is clearly survivor sided.
Comments
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So according to Scott, Spirit and DS have no real counterplay. As the killer (DS/Spirit) has to make the mistake for the survivor to not get hit.
However at 3:55 onwards he says 'other half' of the killers require survivors to make mistakes.
Do you agree with this? Does that imply that people playing the 'other half' should think survivors are 'boring'?
Personally I don't like playing as DS or Spirit myself. Maybe if the remainder of the cast were a bit more stronger in chase then nerfs to DS/Spirit's chase potential would be fair.
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ive been explaining this stuff to people since spirit released and yet no one gets it, nice to see someone finally understands and it was none other than soup jound
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Well according to him the killers got counterplay, but it's boring in his opinion.
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Same way is boring to go against a good survivor with a bad killer.
You're just betting on their mistake. If they are all the same level, well, GG I guess.
Also, I kind stopped taking so serious after watching some of his streams.
The few time I watched, he went against some pretty potato survivors, nothing compared to the really good ones I see on Tru3 or OTZ videos.
Perhaps is the region?
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Survivor is the power role - "Fun killer"
Killer is the power role - "Boring/Unfun killer"
I enjoy playing against ds, spirit and nurse as they're unique. Instead of them relying on you making mistakes, you rely on them making mistakes. As killers should be. You still have input as you can cause them to make mistakes but if they play perfectly they can get you
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Guess we should nerf them to make them more fun for survivors
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That's due to another completely different issue - gens getting done. The counterplay to these 'master' killers is to knock out gens as fast as possible before people start dying. IF you want to call that counterplay.
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The devs had no problems shortening loops to be more fun for killer.
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Scott's arguments have always had a habit of being very opinionated and this video is no exception.
He mistakenly claims that DS is some omniversal force that requires survivors to guess 60 times a second in order to react to, which is obviously ludicrous. Guesses are made during a chase during key points, such as rounding a corner or nearing a pallet/window. Not every waking moment.
He also claims that putting objects between the survivor and DS and then holding W is a good way to counter him. Which is correct. But then fails to mention how this is the best counter to every single killer also in the game.
But I think a big point that he has failed to consider for years now is that the chase potential of Spirit, DS and PH are all objectively weaker than Nurse. Who, in the hands of a skilled player, can offer no counterplay for survivors and yet he only has a problem with killers that basically have Nurse's power to make windows and pallets unsafe, but much weaker.
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His only argument about Deathslinger is basically it is humanly impossible to react to Deathslinger's Harpoon. This is true. What he doesn't mention is that simply hitting someone with a harpoon doesn't result in a down i.e. the environment allows the survivor to break the chain. This opens up the opportunity for the survivor to position themself to limit the opportunities for Deathslinger to get a down. Yes. There are scenarios where the Deathslinger is guaranteed a down but you can limit them by properly positioning yourself, which wastes the Deathslinger's time and buy time for your team to do generators, which is how you beat Deathslinger.
Thanks for introducing me to ScottJund. I've been trying to find a good Spirit to learn from. I've been using Spirit wrong. I didn't realize that you were meant to use Phase to reach the general location of the survivor rather than to actually get a hit directly out of Phase.
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No one said he needed a nerf. Him not having counterplay on his power is not the same as him needing to be nerfed into oblivion.
Of course, I understand why people fear that, as BHVR has shown they love destroying killers, but what he needs to be more fun (that is to say, more than him just tapping M2 then M1 and instantly grappling anyone within 12 meters) is a telegraph, both him and Spirit have no telegraphs whatsoever. Whereas a classic killer like Huntress has multiple telegraphs every time she lifts a hatchet. A telegraph wouldn't really help against Spirit too much except to prevent you from literally running into her as she stands there, but would still be appreciated.
It really seems like there's different eras of Killers that have vastly different design principles. The Trapper starts with 1 trap by default and takes time to set them, which has audio and an animation lock, and can be deactivated by players. He has to walk around the map to pick up his power from RNG spots, compared to today's killers he almost comes off as a parody or something. It doesn't mean he's horrible, a good Trapper will mess you up good, but the default power difference between him and Huntress collecting their power from RNG points on the map and having big telegraphs when those powers are used vs. Deathslinger and Spirit just waiting on reloads or red bars to fill back up before they insta-use their powers with no warning whatsoever, it's like they're from different games altogether.
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"I'm complaining about nothing here" is the real take-away of this video
Is it really that bad that we have some killers who are in control of the chase. Especially if the no counterplay argument only really aplies when they play absolutly perfectly
You don't need to last minutes against a deathslinger. Getting outplayed once as him is a horrible drop on momentum.
A 40 second chase as Billy is not that bad. A 40 second chase as slinger is a disaster
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^^^^^^
Deathslinger's shot is pretty much undodgeable unless you have Dead Hard, but he is only going to get the hit in the open or when you are outpositioned, which is pretty fair. The killer shouldn't have to rely on you making the mistakes and you shouldn't always have a counterplay possibilty no matter your positioning. The game is a 4v1 so it's only fair that the killer will have the natural advantage over the 1v1.
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The thing is that nurse is not only hard to play, has a tell of when she's blinking. She has to charge it the correct amount, aim it, travel to the destination and then actually land the hit. You need to predict how survivors will react and plan ahead. There's no other way to play her.
With spirit you can just stand still. Sure you could phase after a survivor and try to track them and hit them, but why not just stand still and see what they do and then phase. Better yet, why not wait for the survivor to run towards you.
That's kinda the main issue as to why spirit and other killers are considered unfun and annoying is that for how strong they are, they lack equivalent downsides and skill needed. I'm all for strong killers but not strong killers who are brain-dead to play.
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Scott's video here has some huge flaws..for one..pretending human error isnt a factor in a human vs human scenario..ludicrous
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I watched a video basically saying "If i cant t-bag and rofl stomp a killer by going from pallet to pallet mindlessly they are boring unfun and op
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Whenever someone links a YouTube video to prove their point of someone just commentating I instantly stop reading and so do many others lol get some real proof
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No such thing as a power role in this game.
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Yep. Pallets, Trees, Any type of LoS blockers don’t not stop the harpoon. It goes right through them apparently. 🤣
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Which killers feel deficient in the chase to you? Every killer in the game has at least one of the following: 1) An easy first hit (e.g. stealth killers, Legion's Frenzy), 2) An ability that counters loops (e.g. Doctor's shock, Clown's bottles, Nurse's blink), 3) An instadown. Most have other perks as well, like a time-wasting power or high mobility.
Clown is many people's answer for the worst killer in the game and he's extremely strong in the chase. Your only good option against him is to camp pallets and drop them early because his bottles can absolutely shut down loops. His weakness stems from 1) not having an instadown, 2) not having high mobility, and 3) not having stealth. He therefore has just about no way of pressuring survivors other than ending chases extremely quickly and getting people on the hook faster than they can get taken down. That's why pre-dropping pallets is really good against him. Yeah, you'll burn through pallets pretty quickly, but if he can't down you and get you up on a hook the rest of the team has free reign to gen rush. He can't quickly split off and bother people on another gen like more mobile killers. He can't waste time with deep wounds, RBTs, etc. He can't punish mistakes with an instadown.
Anyway, I'm rambling. The main point is that all killers are generally pretty strong in the chase; weak killers are generally weak for other reasons.
Kill rates were in the 65% ballpark at all ranks and closer to 70% at red ranks near the end of last year, so it's not the end of the world to nerf top killers like Spirit. Deathslinger needs a rework or some serious rebalancing, because his chase needs a nerf, but doing that would also kill him. He'd need other buffs to balance those nerfs out.
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There is absolutely skill in playing Spirit. You need to remember the habits of survivors, when do they decide to leave a loop if they think you're phasing, if they decide to backtrack or slow vault, and try to condition them to act a certain way so you can more easily predict and catch them.
Honestly the only really difference between her and Nurse is that Nurse is stronger and is more telegraphed. And I think the latter is what people are mainly frustrated about, rather than the killer's required "skill".
It's very clear when a Nurse is about to blink and where she is going. It is not the case for Spirit when she's phasing and DS if he's considering shooting you. I'm positive that if these killers simply gave more feedback when using their power then people like Scott wouldn't find them nearly so frustrating without nerfing them.
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There is skill to spirit, I'm saying you can play her in a very low skill way. Like there's a difference between a spirit who's constantly phasing, tracking and hitting people out of position and a spirit who just stands still and waits for survivors to do something.
Whereas with nurse you have to get good at her, spirit you can be bad at actually using her power and still do well.
Like the telegraph thing and the skill thing at pretty much the same issue. You can fake the phase and not need to learn how to track, because you don't telegraph when you phase. If they added an animation when she phases of something similar, I think 90% of the complaints would disappear.
Post edited by Inferno427 on0 -
One of the main issues I saw was that he's assuming the killers are playing them near perfectly, like top 1% players...kinda like he says is an irrelevant topic in regards to survivors because those survivors that are that good are the top 1% which you rarely see supposedly.
Seems kinda one sided to mention balance problems from the survivor side assuming a 1% killer but we don't assume 1% survivors when looking at it from the killer side.
If we're gonna assume just decently good survivors when looking at it from the killer side, let's also assume just decently good killers when looking at it from the other. In which case a lot more counter play shows up imo.
Not saying whether I agree or disagree on the balance design of those 2 killers per say, but simply poking holes is some of the reasoning he chose to use. I feel while he may have some good points on the topic, he exaggerates the issues a little. More so with Spirit imo.
Ironically how a lot of survivors feel playing against a good Spirit, is how about 80% of the killer roster feels to play against good survivors, for oddly enough the near same reasons as well.
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I have said my point over many of my past posts offered to play custom with the people who claim otherwise to prove their claim and am declined what more can I say? 😂😂😂
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True, you can just stand still as Spirit and potentially get downs... against low skill survivors.
Like any mindgame, if you constantly choose to do the same thing over and over again your opponent will eventually get wise and start anticipating you. Survivors will start to predict you standing still, or phasing just after standing still, and use that knowledge to better break line of sight and gain distance. So the tactic of just standing still and phasing won't work against survivors who know what they're doing which is what the game should be balanced around.
What I mean by feedback is the reactions that the survivor gets when a killer uses their power. Lets take Nurse using her power:
- She starts charging a blink, allowing survivors to know how far she'll teleport.
- She blinks after charging which survivors can clearly see and hear.
- She reappears with a 2 second time window before she goes into fatigue
- She attacks
Everything about Nurse's power can be quickly analysed to judge how to best avoid it. But with Spirit's power:
- She starts phasing, with no clear signs for survivors to know when she starts if they're being chased by her.
- She reappears and attacks
Although there's a lot more technicalities going on when going against Spirit she has very little feedback compared to Nurse, despite being a weaker version of her. There's still a lot of skill involved in using her. But less ways to tell what she's doing.
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Have you given any written responses to the plethora of counter-arguments against you?
I think you'll find they're a bit more meritable than people not accepting to "1v1 rust" you.
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Just a point on Spirit.
I think the issue about her not giving feedback is actually backwards. She makes you play the opposite of the other killers, which is getting feedback and then reacting.
With Spirit if you get put in that situation you are going to feel like there's no counter play because you are trying to react without getting any feedback.
What you're supposed to do is act first. Not after her. You then force her to react to your feedback. This is putting the "guessing" on her instead of yourself. I put guessing in quotes because I think it's more of a mind game because you are giving her false information(feedback) to react to.
I think if you are waiting for feedback against Spirit you have already played against her wrong and lost the chase.
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This is the correct way to try and mindgame a Spirit. But it's not possible to tell when she starts phasing, and thus when you should start making her guess without guessing yourself. Which I think is why so many people don't like about facing her.
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This is where I think people underestimate the power of holding W. She's extremely slow without using her power so she is going to waste ages chasing after you if she doesn't use her power to run you down. In this scenario you don't care about telling whether she is phasing or not. If she uses it to catch up then now you know she is phasing. If she faked it then you just left her standing there like an idiot while you leave. Also the fact that while holding W you will leave her TR very quickly so you will be able to know if she's actually phase chasing you almost instantly. People are trying to sit at a loop and mind game her which is where they lose as that was a mistake in the first place.
I think the reason people actually hate her is because she forces you to play completely differently from the other killers and people don't like adapting. She also puts much more of the outcome into how good the Spirit is and less into did I just mess up. Which is inverse to like 80% of the killer roster where much more of the outcome is how good the survivor is and did they mess up.
The way many survivors feel facing a "good" Spirit is how 80% of the killer roster feels facing "good" survivors.
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I'd still argue that her power is just a weaker version of Nurses with less feedback. As far as I'm concerned when going up against a good Spirit, if I'm at risk of being downed when she uses her power and I have to try and mindgame her to get away I'm very engaged with the chase.
I'm not sure how people find predicting and conditioning an opponent to be boring in of itself. So l'd be surprised if playing a different way was why so many people hate going against her.
Post edited by SirCracken on0 -
I guess I should've been more specific. I don't think the "idea" of having to play differently is why they don't like her.
It's that they literally can't understand/figure it out. The vast majority of players still just circle a loop looking for feedback from her and then get upset that "she has no counter play" when they just tried to play against her like every other killer.
I think that the counter play to her that we described requires more game knowledge/critical thinking from knowing how a lot of the game works and the average player base I believe is around rank 10 or lower.
So I suppose in saying this I could see a fair argument that maybe her counter play is "fair" but not intuitive enough to pick up quickly for newer players. I could see that view point as pretty rational.
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Maybe some development time could be put into making an in-game tutorial in how to best counter all the killers in the game? And likewise for how to play as them effectively?
This may help the frustrations that people have against her and other killers they're having trouble with. Not to mention this being a long overdue feature.
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I have in my past posts not just 1v1 me. I only say that because the same people saying spirit has counterplay are bad survivors and cant do it. Besides if I were to reply to it all I'd have 3-4 people arguing against me.
I dont feel like dealing with that. But then again killer sided forums so it's much expected.
I made this buf its frustrating to keep making the same points for a bunch of people to try and argue against you at the same time.yhen its accompanied by how I want "easy loopabl killers."
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I know i have said it before but.. you do realize that this game is a 4v1 right?
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I have said it before but.. you do realize the most fun part of this game is a 1v1 right?
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Sounds like a challenging development, but I like the idea if they can.
Another interesting side note that I think relates to this topic though.
While Spirit may have gone a little too far in the "not intuitive" enough direction, I think we can also see some flawed development in the complete opposite direction in the form of Demogorgon.
Demo takes the complete opposite route which is where the counter play and what he does is spoon fed way too heavily. Everything he does is not only heavily telegraphed to the person in chase but to the entire team, to where they all know what he's doing at almost all times. IE such as needing to tell everyone every time he teleports to lookout instead of just knowing to watch out. There are quite a few other things as well though.
This is what leads to a lot of people generally thinking Demo looks extremely strong on paper from his tool kit, but for some reason always feels much weaker in practice. It's because he gives too much information (feedback). Exemplified even more as I said earlier because he gives it to the entire team.
He needs a reduction in feedback.
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I'm not so sure it's sided towards killers or survivors. I've made posts in the past criticizing an aspect of either side and the reception is very random. Sometimes I have a whole bunch of people agree with me and other times the exact opposite. It seems to depend on how many people are online at the time I guess.
I can understand not wanting to argue with several people at once though. I've tried it and It's not fun.
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Apparently his entire power was going to be much more like his on-screen depiction. With survivors being able to be dragged into the upside down and having to track him in the real world by way of flickering lights around the map. But this was sadly scrapped due to time constraints.
I think the Demo we have now is the flawed result of the design shortcut that was taken when he was being worked on.
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Interesting. I'd never actually heard about that until now if it's true. That would indeed explain a lot.
I still think what we have now can be salvaged with some small tweaks. That other design would've been so much fun though that's for sure.
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same I don't even watch streamers for anything just friends.
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Oh for sure. He could get lots of QoL improvements like having 2 of his brown add-ons, the rat tail and liver, being basekit among loads of other things.
But although there's way more things that need to be tweaked, I'd like it if he got a rework similar to Freddy's that adjusts his power to be more like it was originally intended to be.
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Agree on the brown addons.
While I'd love that type of rework to do with him like they did Freddy I just don't see that ever happening.
They save those types of reworks for heavily flawed or problematic killers that aren't performing well. I think that generally speaking, they consider Demo one of the most balanced killers and in a good spot unfortunately. Another big decider is if survivors dislike facing him and unfortunately again, he usually makes most survivors top 3 favorites to face.
There are still a few killers that are actually in that badly designed spot and are probably on the radar for those types of reworks instead.
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That's fair enough but yeah that's my reasoning it feels terrible and your point doesnt feel like it's getting across.
This thread right here has many people disagreeing so I'm not even gonna start.
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Then stop playing a 4v1 game and go find a game that is designed around 1v1
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Except the devs balanced around looping, the chase, the 1v1 odd right?
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We've been over it in these threads on repeat yet survivors still don't listen.....They've had extremely viable counters during a chase since release.
Spirit> Countered by window vaults.....all the time....every time.
Deathslinger>counter by walls, and pallets, and simply juking since he can only shoot straight, and no matter what he can't no scope, so he has to look down sights to shoot.
Pyramid Head>has the same counters during a chase as huntress, and theres dozens of videos you could use to teach you how to avoid getting hit.
But no matter how much content, or how many explanatory forum posts people put out teaching people this stuff nobody listens....
Before they changed ranking systems there were still red rank survivors who didn't know how to look behind themselves during a chase.....HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?!?!
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I don't understand why he thinks that they need a nerf. Why nerf a killer because, "they're boring to go up against"
This obviously won't go for everyone, but when someone DC'd when I downed them as deathslinger and it just ended it up and either a 2 or 3 man and we just farmed they both said that they enjoy going against deathslinger considering the fact that each DS playing might have a different strategy up their sleeve or just a deathslinger running NOED which makes the match a bit more intense a bit more when it gets close to the end.
If a killer is boring to go up against than that's understandable and it's your opinion. But *nerfing* a killer because you find them boring that's not necessarily smart or fair. Again that could be his opinion too, but I don't necessarily agree with that.
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I played both sides and they all have a counter play. I play with Pyramid Head, Deathslinger, and Spirit. Pyramid Head and Deathslinger I have locked on point, and I might also know the opposing side might be thinking too at times. It's not the fact that they have no counterplay they're just trying to read your next move. If you're going to fast vault a window chances are they're going to use their power to get the upper hand if they time it right. You also can't forget that they're also keeping the idea of a possible fake out from you in mind so they can also be prepared for that possiblity.
Quick shots on Deathslinger are used when a survivor is still in their same formation (either running straight or at a pallet if a survivor is hiding behind it.)
Throw down pallets quickly before he pulls the trigger. It's a high noon standoff of quickshots and pallet drop in that scenario. Or if you're about to make it to a pallet assume that he'll pull a quick shot and move out of the way really quickly.
Pyramid Head is counter-able too since his power mostly revolves around thinking ahead of the player and predicting their next moves. If a Survivor is at a pallet they have to assume two things: 1. "They're either going to drop it so I should get my power ready." or 2: They might run through the pallet so I should probably fake them out with my power early then go for a basic attack.
Spirit I'm still figuring out a solid counterplay, but for most of the times when she is phase walking run to her husk, I do that most of the time with spirit (who knows maybe others might do it too at this point), or if there's the possiblity she's trying to fake you out at a pallet loop wait a bit, and keep running if she starts chasing you when you start running that's you're sign that she was trying to fake you out.
Sorry if this is too long, but I just wanted to share my side of the discussion. It's best to get a response from those who play both sides since they know what you mean and what you're going through in-game.
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During patch 2.0 slot of the filler pallets were shortened in the name of fun. You know that double truck loop with a pallet? It used to be bigger and have debris on it. Technically its subjective so some killers could of liked that.
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For slinger all he has to do is shoot you before you reach the pallet or zone you. If you continuously dodge before going to pallets you will make it obvious what you are going for. He will ads spam a bit and m1 you.
PH doesnt need to predict he needs to react. When you put that sword in the ground he has a psychological effect on players the fear of getting hit. Players will dodge for his nonexistent cooldown to come and m1 him. If they pre throw he uses his power which he can do before getting stunned if you time it right.
Spirit you are having trouble because she offers no legit counterplay other than guessing shes doing x and doing y to beat her.
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