Corrupt & Pop, fair or unfair?
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I will also go against consensus and say that I don't think Corrupt is that good of a perk. To be fair, I'm not playing at a level where every second matters, but, in my purple rank life, it's never done very much to my game.
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All corrupt really does is put survivors and killers on the same level at the start of the game. Killer has to go around and find their objective. Survivors who often spawn on top of gens, now have to do the same thing as the killer. Go around the map and find their objective, rather than doing it right away. That and corrupt has no value if the survivors can successfully hide from the killer for 2 minutes, leading to zero hooks for the killer. Which after 2 minutes, the only perk that has any value anymore is pop. Which corrupt also just delays the survivors doing their objective, by having to walk over to a different part of the map, it doesn't really slow down gens at all by it's self. Pop you have to find a survivor, down them, hook them and finally walk around to find a gen that is worth kicking and not one that barely has any progress to get the most out of it. Pop, bbq and thrilling of some of the best design perks in the game. For you have to do your objective successfully, in other to get a benefit out of it.
Now i'm sure someone will go lol this combo is toxic without adding any meaning to what makes it toxic or why. Which Toxic is really just a overused word, that really doesn't add much value to this topic.
Now we also need to take into account the different killers. Most are 115% and lack mobility, while some rather large maps exist. Not to forget there are certain killers that need time to set up, trapper, hag to name two. So on larger maps, these killers who lack mobility suffer more on larger maps than killers with mobility. Which is why mobility killers are normally the strongest in the game, due to being able to go quickly from point a to point b quickly, to drive survivors off of gens and/or down them quickly. So in the case of bad rng, set up killers or these who lack mobility, are going to need a bit of extra help on these larger maps. Not just at the start but also later on, when they need to maintain control over very important gens if they want to win. Since kicking a gen does jack on it's own and more experience survivors tend to be more bolder, will work on gens injured, who will wait until the killer leaves and than start working on the gen again that was just kicked. While with pop, you can always ensure you will remove some progress on a gen and help to maintain it. That and survivors tapping a gen can work in your favor, if someone goes down quickly again, to a gen that had 75% progress but now has only 50% due to being popped, than was tap or work on again for a few seconds. With it now going down to around 25% progress, thanks to moves by survivors that played in your favor. Which can allow this killer who lacks mobility, to have a chance at apply pressure where it's needed most, in an area they can control. For pop is a very consistence slow down that works if the killer has skill and can end chases quickly. For pop is worthless if you get loop for five chases.
Which surge can hit up to three gens but that is only in the most ideal case, that and the regress on the gen is spread out, so in the most idea case it would be 24%, slightly less than pop. Yet it only works on basic attacks, making it use limited due to some killers like Oni having a powerful m2 ability they want to make use of, making pop the more consistence slow down perk for them. While surge also has a limited range, it's rather possible a survivor might lead you away from a gen or they go down slightly out of range of a gen, making surge the less consistence slow down. On larger maps surge limited range makes it even worst as a slow down perk, sure on small maps like the game it might work super well but you can't always be sure rng will be in your favor. For even if you do well enough, you might not get surge's effect. While pop, you hook someone, bbq you hook someone, thrilling you pick up the down person and you will always be rewarded for your efforts [in the case of pop and bbq, long as you don't get blinded, pallet slam, ect ect]. Which is why pop is a favorite slow down on many killers. It's due to consistency and can work well on most killers, that and it also the feel good feeling of being rewarded for your efforts. That and a three gen is not as powerful, without some sort of slow down, to help maintain it. Which is where pop becomes the ideal perk for.
That and why run this combo? Well pop is great for three gens and on certain maps, that is how you win. Three gen due to the design of it. Call three gens boring or whatever but this fault is due to the map design. With the map often being large as well to get from one side to the other. If you have corrupt up, you could always go and protect the side that is the better three gen, rather than going well time to protect the worst gen for by the time I got over to the other side, they already pop a gen. While pop helps with the mid to late game, to help you win. That and on some maps like haddonfield will sometimes have gens so spread out, there is no such thing as a three gen to killers who lack mobility and killers with out mobility will need all the help they can get due to poor rng. For that another thing, rng. You have no idea what the rng will be like. You could get a map with lots of things to hide behind or duck behind, ideal for ghostface but sounds like a nightmare for huntress. While you could get on a map with little to no cover or anythings to duck or hide behind, sounds like a dream come true for huntress but a nightmare for ghostface. Which all of this is before you factor in not knowing who you are going to go up against. Sure you might go up against newbies or you might go up against harden survivors. You can't really say for sure, while pop and corrupt tends to be overall a rather consistence combo, no matter who you are facing and can help combat bad rng a bit. If you are going against tough survivors, you brought a good perk combo that can help you out. If you are facing newbies, well if the game is going in your favor massively can always ease up on them a bit or simply give the last person hatch.
Now lets look at certain killers like Myers. Myers early game might as well not exist. He needs to go towards survivors and stalk them to get out of tier one. Which is why corrupt is helpful on him, for it gives Myers the time to get the ball rolling. That and good survivors can deny Myers stalk for as long as possible [same can be said for Oni to be fair]. Myers might have to waste alot of time just to get the ball rolling for him, to make up for his weak early game. That and Myers once he does get his power, is still a killer you can loop like any other, which you can also lessen the effect of his tier 3 ability by spreading out against him. That and well it just makes sense to take corrupt on Myers to make up for his weak early game and combing it with pop also makes good sense on Myers, for if he can one hit down a survivor, he can also get a easy pop out of it. Maybe two or more downs in ideal cases. IN less ideal cases, only a single down, which Myers tier 3s are limited, so if you can always make sure to get a little extra value out of them by using say pop, well sounds like a good idea. That and Myers suffers greatly on larger maps, for he starts out at 105% movement speed, has to waste time getting out of tier 1 by finding and stalking a survivor. So he might need all the help he can get, in order to make sure he stands a chance and doesn't get screwed over royally by bad rng.
Now lets look at Freddy. Corrupt gives him time for his teleport to be ready and survivors to enter dream state, where he can finally start using his snares against survivors. It simply lets Freddy deny the survivors just long enough for things to slowly turn towards his favor as survivor start falling asleep and depending on Freddy's add ons, survivors being asleep might lead to extra slow down. Which Pop is more powerful on Freddy than other killers like say Myers for a simple reason. Freddy has mobility. Combo that with something like thrilling to know which gen is being worked on and Freddy can have a very good idea of where he needs to go and which gen needs to pop. For against a killer that lacks mobility, you might be able to get a gen done before they could make it to your side of the map. While Freddy can teleport straight towards the gen and pop it right away, unless the survivors are super close to getting it done, Freddy can easily deny survivors the chance of finishing a gen thanks to mobility. All of these perks, simply work wonderful on Freddy, making a strong killer even stronger.
Do you always needs corrupt and pop to win? No you can easily make due with one or the other, yes it's possible to win games without any slow downs. Yet the reason it's a popular combo, is due to it working very well together and can work reasonable well on most if not all maps in the game, along with it being a good combo on many killers. Basically it's the same reason you use a water type pokemon against the rock type gym, it just makes logical sense to do that, since it works in your favor.
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I ask simply because some people actually find it unfair to face, the fact that's even said made me wonder as to why. It's actually a very interesting thing to see unfold in the comments as I personally consider it to be fair with plenty of counters to it, but what I'm mostly interested in is those who find it unfair.
That doesn't mean those who find it fair can't give good points, in fact it's a good way to start a civil discussion.
To each their own, at least you've grown accustomed to a more unique perk build set than the meta projects.
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A fair point, I can see what you mean now after the clarification. I can agree that if you compare using pop and not using pop it does give a slight impact to the game in-terms of the overall base-kit. But as a slight argument this can be said about any perk that benefits the Killer in a chase, passively, or to regress generator progress. But that doesn't mean I don't see what you mean, pop definitely does give a slight impact to generator regression in-game when compared to without it, so I can agree with you on that.
If something like a early game collapse was introduced than the need for Corrupt would probably cease to be and a reduction to pops reduction penalty would be more than fair for the bonus slot Corrupt will leave after.
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I slightly disagree about the pallet point, if a Survivor knows where a pallet spawns and how each tile works than there's never a shortage in what can be used to slow the Killer down. I only said slightly though because the reduction in pallets mitigates how long it would take to down a Survivor, it really just depends on that Survivors skill in what's available in the scenario at a given time.
The point where "survivors are more bold to repair near you" only really happens when the scenario is juuuust right. If the Killer is so focused on 1 on 1 chases and fails to hear the gen beside them than that's something that can happen. Of course in some situations like this they have no choice since chasing other Survivors might result in the same issue where the gen gets worked on by the previously chased Survivor. In the end, the gen is lost as a result unfortunately. Sometimes it just happens because of DS, which is another issue that I don't want to go over here atm.
As for the 3 gen strat it's actually a lot harder to pull that off these days, probably due to Survivors being more aware of the threat it poses. All in all, I don't see the harm in using either of the perks, even without that reasoning. I'm just giving some friendly banter.
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I guess to some it does, but this can be said about many things like the Killer they're playing, their perks, add-ons, etc. In this case it was... "less reasonable" I suppose. But to each their own, some see it that way because they either don't think they can be downed without it or something else along those lines idk.
I could argue that DS & Unbreakable have no counter-play either, considering one is a free 60 seconds of invincibility and the other mitigates the issue of being slugged with a free pick up. Using Soul Guard with it makes it even more unfair in some situations like EGC, where if they get up near Survivors and the only chance you had was to down them right there than there's no way you'll get them in the end.
There isn't really a reward for those perks either, they're more-so used as a passive benefit with little downside. Now with Corrupt & Pop the same can be said about them in some ways, Corrupt just blocks 3 gens and prevents a early gen rush, that's about it and the Killer didn't really earn that. As for Pop some could argue the Killer IS earning something for playing their role, downing, hooking, and gaining the added benefit of a one moment use 25% regression to one gen (while active). I can't really say the perk itself has a "counter" to prevent its use, but working on the same 90%'ed gen that's being kicked after every down is probably not the greatest idea, so it's best to use it as a decoy while working on other gens.
As for being unfair on certain Killers, I can agree that it's overkill on Killers that really don't need it. Usually this is judged from opinion to opinion, but I personally don't think Killers like Billy, Freddy, Oni, or Spirit need this combo. Using Pop on its own with Oni, Spirit, or Billy is arguable fine, but Freddy really doesn't need the slow-down if they're running a slow-down build already. But again, some could argue it's fair, that's why I said it's an "opinion to opinion" basis.
But in a way I can see your reasoning behind what you're saying, I'm just giving some friendly counter-banter to it that maybe you can also argue against as well (civilly of course lol).
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Oh I tried that but there isn't an option for General Discussions I'm afraid, that's why I had to get it moved unfortunately. If there was an option than either it was recently added or the forums are just acting up, since usually that (options menu) isn't even in there when you're already on the sub-forum you want to post on.
If you mean the drop-down arrow next to "new discussion" than there's only the options for a poll or "ask a question" there.
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Well both combos have their own issues as to why people dislike them. DS/UB is usually hated more by Killers and even Survivors for... well... reasons you and I probably already know. I don't want to turn this into a DS/UB conversation either, so I'm just limiting what I say about it unless it needs to be brought up for a moment.
To say it's hypocritical of them is... arguable I guess? It's hard to really say without having a full discussion about Corrupt/Pop Vs. DS/UB, which again I would prefer to avoid.
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Yeah I agree they both have their issues I personally dont mind them either side its fair game. I dont want to start an argument either so I'll stop mentioning DS/UB. Without a proper way to stop early game gens I dont understand why the combo is complained about.
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when I play survivor I don’t really mind both of those perks. It’s more frustrating when my team just feeds the killer pops.
when I play killer I’ve switched from using pop as I feel like it makes me play less optimally, I don’t exert enough pressure on gens cause I’m relying on my 25% regression. It’s generally more fun to overwhelm the survivors with pressure rather than stick to kicking gens cause that doesn’t feel as rewarding.
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I'm not familiar with the upcoming tournaments that're being the norm now (or something) but I do agree with the point you made about Corrupt. That actually happened to me in one of my matches recently on a low-tier Killer, the Survivors did nothing and just waited for the gens to be "un-corrupted". I was still able to 3k with the last Survivor escaping with a key, but it does go to show that hiding will run the timer out and make the perk essentially worthless.
The only thing I can see this being countered by is finding a Survivor through luck or being Myers/GF and not alerting them to where you're. As for Pop being by itself it does reward the Killer for playing the match well, so it's hard to say that it's in the LITERAL meaning of being unfair. It's interesting though to read why people consider it to be unfair, so as for the last comment "why wouldn't the perks be fair?" is mostly just up to opinions.
Well by "combo" I mostly mean that they work well together in the 2 minutes Corrupt is on while Pop still benefits the Killer afterwards. It's hard to say that this is a combo, more-so a mutual beneficial pairing... I guess.
Well to be fair that rank is a lot less... "serious" I guess. Which is why some players enjoy it more than Red Ranks. As for Red Ranks it's commonly used on Killers that need it, but sometimes used on Killers that heavily benefit from it.
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Well you don't have to stop mentioning it if it's relevant to the conversation, I was just saying that because I'm sure you and I are familiar with the issues they both pose to the table, so discussing it doesn't really seem necessary.
As for WHY it's complained about is exactly why I made the post actually, I personally don't see the issue with it considering they're more or less a mutual benefit to have, rather than a combo itself. The "combo" only really works when Corrupt is active, once Corrupt is over it just stops being a combo and more-so continues to be reliant on Pop. That's why I dance around the word combo when replying to comments since it really isn't one when you get technical. But of course someone can argue it's, in my opinion it isn't though, it's just easier to call it a combo than a "Mutually beneficial pairing".
As for why some players might hate it is probably due to how Corrupt functions. It blocks 3 gens that're the farthest from the Killers spawn, which to some might be annoying since they don't want to move and risk being hit when going to another gen. Than when Pop is added into the mix it might be considered annoying to them since they also have to avoid being downed to avoid heavy regression on the other 4 gens that're available. That's at least the reasoning I can see behind why some players hate it.
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Well to be fair it isn't unreasonable to use Corrupt & Pop on Killers that really need it. I for one use Corrupt on Myers since Tier l is naturally slow, so it's good to get to Tier ll without a big risk involved with it. Sometimes I use it on Wraith because being a pure M1 Killer can be difficult at Rank 1, especially against a good team. Sometimes I use both perks on low-tier Killers like that, but sometimes I don't.
It really just depends on what YOU see as reasonable, if you can do fine without it than I don't see the harm in not using it. It's actually a good thing to go outside the norms of the meta, as staying with the same things can be... stale.
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A very good analysis into the combo itself. To keep things short, yes Corrupt & Pop have their uses in their own scenarios like the maps you get, the Killers you're on, the team you're facing, etc. But the point is that for some Killers it's definitely helpful due to set ups or what have you, while for other Killers it can be MORE beneficial due to mobility and what not.
But is the combo required to win? No, it's just extremely helpful for Killers that REALLY do need it, while also having benefits for Killers that DON'T need it but gain bonuses or faster start ups from it.
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I rather not because the combo definitely brings the worst out of people atleast when discussing it. The combo is strong and it synergizes well. This divides the community between those who hate it and those who defend it. This whole thread could become hostile.
Exactly the combo is a combo when corrupt is done. It's just pop. But its just like DS/UB when one is gone it relies on the other and stops being such a combo so it has similarities.
I agree with that, but the problem is in 2 minutes if you are a good killer you can get major pressure and get gens close to a stop. Gens are boring to do so thst doesnt help.
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One perk deactivates after a couple minutes, and another is only as good as you are. I think they are fair.
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Well that's the mindset I have too, but I guess some people see it differently. Either for specific reasons or even sometimes... others... reasons...
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Well yeah, that's kind of why I even brought it up. Even discussing it can cause in-fighting, so it's best not to mention it outside of references.
And yeah, in 2 minutes a good Killer can gain major pressure regardless if the perk is active or not, I guess people just see it differently though. Which is ok, not everyone needs to agree on something.
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I think everything in the game is fair. It's the players that are unfair.
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Perhaps it's the players that make them unfair?...
Yeah... I don't know about that... I think it's just more-so about how the perks work and what they do that make people discuss about them. Perks are important in the trial, but sometimes people forget that they're only bonuses to the gameplay. Of course some Killers really DO need the extra help though.
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Apparently out of all the red rank strats, a lot of survivors haven't heard of this titanbrain counter to pop: If the killer pops your gen, don't just tap it immediately. I've never ran corrupt and don't even have it unlocked, but pop I ran until Undying came out and I can tell you there's no sight sweeter than popping a gen and instantly seeing it tapped when the survivors are still in danger. You're literally letting me pop it again. Remember, a killer can't kick a regressing gen.
So if you get popped, hide for a second, make sure the killer actually goes away, and when you've got the all-clear, you can get back on it. If the killer immediately enters another chase, or worse, hooks right next to the gen and pops, BE PATIENT. Don't just unhook and get back on the gen, don't just tap it and hide again. If they have another pop ready, you want them to come to this gen, see it's regressing, and leave. Pop's on a timer so they're not gonna stick around for too long. Once they leave, you're almost always in the clear, and if they fake this out even once, then you know to just move on to another gen.
Unless you think no one will be around for a while, then tapping and hiding is fine, since it's still overall better than regressing for a really long time. Basically you have to observe how the killer plays and remember the limitations of killer interactions with generators. You're still going to have to deal with pops, but you'll do significantly less damage to your chances of survival if you assess the situation first before acting.
You can also split up and do gens, assuming enough people are alive. That's the counter to like, literally every killer and every perk in the game. That kind of split gen pressure is agonizing as a killer. A little harder with randoms, but you'd be surprised how much people will obey a simple pointing emote.
As for corrupt, going full immersive is a very easy counter assuming you're not awful at hiding. Like I said, I don't have it, but in general I have a ton of trouble finding survivors who are playing stealthy, doubly so when a ticking clock is adding pressure to get anything done. I imagine corrupt would just turn me into a potato who chokes at the early game.
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I think corrupt is pretty fair. Against good teams, corrupt is only going to buy you like ~30 seconds. I have stopped running it on the majority of my killers just because it has such little impact against meta survivors.
Sometimes at rank 1-2 you will still get immersed potato's who will mess around while corrupt is active; which is why it can be so effective. But honestly you don't perks against those types of survivors. You need perks against the teams that all spawn in, hit shift, and hold W to the nearest generator. Corrupt or not, within 30 seconds 3-4 survivors are all on a gen. So all it is buying you is the zoning, and a tiny bit of slowdown for an entire perk slot.
Pop I think is fine too. It lets you stomp on players worse than yourself but against a similarly skilled SWF / Genrush team it honestly does very little. If you watch the 15k DBD tournament, many killers were using things like NOED / Rancor / Devour / etc in place of regression perks. I pretty much only use it with Tinkerer so I can get multiple procs off the same gen.
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Well that really sucks then. I wish I could find a way to help you. I hope things get fixed soon
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its fair.
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Unfortunately, some players do not follow this counter despite it only taking some patience or tactical thinking. I suppose some players are just not patient enough to wait or don't want to move to another location. They could even tap the gen if they really want to and move to another gen, that's at least more effective than trying to work on the same gen the Killer will continuously pop until it's dead.
And yeah, hiding for the 2 minutes Corrupt is up is basically the hard counter to that perk. Even if the team doesn't do that they could still go on the opposite side of the map during their chase so the other Survivors work on the 4 available gens on the other side.
Well Corrupt at this point is more-so a counter to casual or standard teams, if you're actively seeking coordinated teams than you'd obviously move onto something that's more effective. But here's the issue, I personally disagree with the tournament argument because DBD isn't always in a "tournament mood". By that I mean the most common teams you'll come across is either the casual teams or the standard/decent teams. If every Killer played every match like it was a tournament than things would get boring fast, since there are plenty of perks that'll work against those teams while DESTROYING other teams that're just playing for fun.
Sometimes the community forgets that this is just a party game at heart, having it in a tournament setting is, at least to me, something that isn't there right now. As much as some players want to make it into that, it really isn't at that point right now. Of course anyone can feel free to argue that it's, but I personally don't think it's. Obviously players can play however they want and play as hard as they want, but not many players are keen on that mindset, especially the majority of DBD.
I guess my point is, while Corrupt isn't the "top-tier" option for a serious match, it's indeed something that most people use in the meta for the most common teams that show up, that being casuals or standard/decent teams. If it's a coordinated team than they'll have no issue working around both these perks, yet the Killer isn't probably playing 100% optimally if they're running corrupt or even Pop in the first place.
Of course though it's good to be informed of better options and playstyles, Corrupt is more-so just a casual approach to the game rather than a serious one.
I'm sure they will, they probably already have and I'm unaware of the fix. Either way, It'll work eventually.
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