Anti-tunneling shouldn't be a perk, should be a core game mechanic here's why
Why I believe it's bad being a perk
Making DLC perks for anti-tunneling isn't a good, it's bad for the incoming players who just want to have a good game experience, they will need to buy a DLC to get this "anti-tunneling" and be able to enjoy matches. Which is why it's scary to make changes to DS now, since it's from the most bought DLC on the store, and also DS is the main reason why people buy the Halloween DLC.
But, acting oblivious of changing a perk to maintain a DLC's sales it's bad, I'm one of those who can't recommend this game to friends knowing thay they will buy a DLC to get an extremely OP perk that makes one of the biggest balacing issues of this game, all because it lacks a anti-tunnel mechanic.
Creating a anti-tunnel mechanic
For me an anti-tunnel mechanic, it has to do both:
A) Motivate the killer to after other survivors.
B) Make the survivor harder to be tunneled.
Example of A):
- Show the killer that the survivor isn't a treat to game objective(reduced gen speed and cleasing totem speed until another survivor is hooked is a way,).
Example of B):
- The last unhooked survivor receives a haste effect of 10%, the effect lasts until another survivor is put on the hook(or killed), or until the unhooked survivor is healed.
Other solutions
I believe there is other ways of doing that, but I think it would need to rework the whole hook mechanic, which is not good, since the community showed they are against that idea.
But what would be your solution for anti-tunneling?
Comments
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Most survivors don't understand what tunneling is.
I think hard / soft camping is a bigger issue. Getting chased off hook isn't terrible. It's only bad when the killer refuses to leave 10m of the hook and doesn't give you any chance to make distance.
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Most survivors don't understand what tunneling is.Sadly it's kinda true, most of the entitled main survivors do gens in front of the killer after being unhooked, thinking they won't get hit and believe they are being tunneled when they get hit.
I think hard / soft camping is a bigger issue. Getting chased off hook isn't terrible. It's only bad when the killer refuses to leave 10m of the hook and doesn't give you any chance to make distance.Yeah, camping is a bigger issue, but I wanted to talk one of the biggests reasons on why people defend DS, even though is something that should be the focus of the devs on fixing right now, if they fix it, they can literally delete DS of the game if they feel like it.
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I have no issues with some built-in anti-tunnel mechanics (as long as they're not too oppressive, the killer should still be able to get you, but have a harder time doing so) and, at least for me much more importantly, so long as once the gates are powered, all that ######### goes out the window. As far as I'm concerned, once the fifth gen is done, all bets are off. It should be a mad scramble for you to escape. Anything that can make it literally impossible to kill you (unless you're across the map from the gate) before you get through the doors should be gone.
That's mostly just for built-in mechanics, though. I mean, I personally don't think DS should work after the gates are open, but I don't think that kind of thing will ever be implemented. However, if a mechanic like this were built directly into every survivor's basekit, I absolutely think it should turn off once the gates are powered.
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Which perk exactly is anti-tunneling? I obviously missed it for 4 years.
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Decisive strike.
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There is one problem with making a anti-tunnel mechanic is the amount off times survivors have unhooked someone before i have even gone away from the hook or moved a few meters away from it it's not funny, Sorry but that's on your teammates not the killer if they go after you and down you again for not waiting for the killer to go away before they unhook you. Why should survivors get a anti-tunnel mechanic when they can't even wait those few seconds to unhook you safely.
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I laughed at "Motivate killers to go after other survivors."
You can give them 10x the Bloodpoints and they'll still tunnel. BBQ is a good motivation and most of them still don't bother.
Want to get rid of tunneling perks? Rework the hook system to reflect more of what Pyramid Head does.
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keep cryng
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That's why it has to be both A and B, otherwise it won't work.
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Surely not.
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DS is an anti-tunnel perk, would you like to tell me otherwise? Give me some legitimate reasons.
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You could say that about a lot of things in the game.
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Are u okay? who hurt you?
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Yeah, with gates powered killer's gameplay is pratically over, so it would make sense.
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please keep crying for the tunneling, 4 years and the kids still complaint XD
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Well, I'm not crying but I'm sure am complaining, it affects the player experience in a bad way, which became a reason to keep one of the most broken perks of the game alive.
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How should a perk thats only effect is a 5s stun be an anti-tunnel-perk?
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Good to see you back, but if I may I have seen devs also call it an anti tunnel perk, some call it anti tunnel some call it anti momentum.
It works mostly as an anti tunnel since most players won't be able to down multiple survivors at once.
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Because it activates when a survivor has been recently unhooked, if it really wasn't an anti-tunnel perk, it would activate when doing something else. If you bring up that peanits comment, I also heard from 3 other devs that the perk is meant to be anti-tunnel.
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Noone ever said its anti-tunnel. Also who cares when a perk activates? Its a 5s stun, that does not counter tunneling in the slightest.
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I would agree with this if there was a general consensus on what tunnelling was.
However there's a large portion of the community will consider any little slight against them as tunneling.
You recently got unhooked and immediately went on the closest gen that's literally right in front of you and start working only to be insert shocked Pikachu face here when the killer starts chasing you again.
Survivors who have recently been unhooked but seemed incredibly super determined to take a borrowed time hit for their rescuer and then get surprised when the killer is automatically on them.
There's a lot more but these are the two examples of the top of my head I don't feel like giving anti tunneling benefits to people like this is a smart idea. Simply because they're either simply making a stupid play that shouldn't be rewarded or actively feeding a tunnel.
If you want to add an anti tunneling mechanic you're going to have to figure out a way to clearly define what is tunnelling and and make it so it is not abusable which sadly is never going to happen
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Feels disingenuous to act like it's only a 5 second stun. It's not just a five second stun, it's a five second stun into a ~20 meter distance gap which can be closed at a rate slightly greater than .6 per second (33 seconds). After that, the looping process begins, which is the real meat of the time waste, and can go on for much longer.
Or you could slug the survivor, who would likely recover to injured with ub/soulguard. If they didn't, they would still get healed by someone else. This only occurs if you down the survivor after they've been unhooked. Sounds like anti-tunnel to me (albeit with way too much leniency).
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As for the main thread proposal, I don't like the movespeed increase. Movespeed is something that's very powerful, and I don't support handing out indefinately timed movespeed increases without borderline crippling penalties associated with it. The reduction to action speed would have to be stupid huge in order to compensate for a strength of this magnitude. At that point, you've basically eliminated a survivor from the game, which is also unacceptable for the game's balance. I don't know how I would adjust your proposal, but movespeed increases are not the way.
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Second chances shouldn't be in any perks, its already in the core game design
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For me tunneling is literally following the same survivor to get him out of the game without caring for other survivors, which is what tunneling really is. Anything else is just cries in my opinion, in tournaments you can't tunnel, but if you hook another survivor, you can get back to the survivor you hooked already, so for me isn't tunneling just as it isn't in tournaments.
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No
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Until you give me an in game mechanic that helps with me getting five minute gen rushed almost every single game; I think DS is good where it is.
I literally have to hope for good people that want to actually play the entirety of this game instead of JUST generators.
And I rarely get them so...
I feel like this thread/forum thing is pointless. I'm not really seeing any fixes coming from here - just talking that Devs rarely acknowledge.
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As always this is just theory ignoring the game design like powers and map layout at all. In reality DS does nothing more than delaying the tunneling for a split-second. You cannot call DS an anti-tunnel perk at all.
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Exactly. A examplary scenario (in which the concept itself should NOT be applied) is at endgame with open doors.
One person is on hook and gets rescued by all other 3. Now the killer sees all 4 survivor, one injured and the rest healthy. He wants to only hit the already injured but the other 3 block him until he manages to surpass/bypass them to get the on he "tunnel( vision)ed" on. That is a premium example of tunneling.
The situation that is mostly concerned when people say tunneling is when a survivor gets unhooked in vision of the killer and get either instant downed or focused. But this scenario is only partially to blame on the killer and mostly on the survivor doing the unsafe rescue.
Two solutions to this were handed out by the devs in form of the perks "borrowed time" and "make your choice".
Bt let's the unhooking survivor give a temporary shield to the rescuee, making them less attractive to focus but some killer will simply wait out the deep wound timer or the effect itself. (Btw this perk should be made dependent on killer vicinity not terror radius. For consistency)
Myc makes the rescuing survivor vulnerable to a one hit down, this time making both survivor equally focusable. Also myc is only active if the killer is at a certain distance distance to the hook (I think roughly the same as the bt trigger distance).
Both make the unhooked less and the unhooker more attractive as a potential target. But they are not base game and have to be in the load out of the respective party AND are not necessarily meta.
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Most survivors don't know what camping is either. I've had survivors follow me to the hook get hit and proceed to loop me 5ft from the hooked teammate and for daring to go after someone that close to a hook I'm a "tunneling camper"
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If DS only buys you a "split second" then you're not a very good survivor. A Blight or a Nurse might catch you quickly, but most of the other killers will just have to hold W to get back on you, which can often be a very poor decision since a good survivor will be heading to the nearest strong loop, ideally in a dead zone far away from the gens being worked on, but of course that depends on where you went down.
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It punishes the killer badly for Tunneling. That‘s how it counters Tunneling. Of course there can‘t be a perk that completely makes tunneling impossible, but ds wastes a lot of time of the killer if the killer Tunnels, giving the survivor team a better chance of winning. That‘s what an anti Tunnel perk is for.
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You do realize the devs are coming up with an early game slowdown,
Right?
You do realize they do look at the forums? That's why they exist. They need feedback and this is the best way to get it. If you don't like forum posts like this then don't comment on them.
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You bring up what is possibly the greatest point related to this topic. What is tunneling. For if people can't agree on what tunneling is, how can you put in something for survivors to fight against tunneling, if no one can agree on what it means in the first place. Heck in this very thread, we already have people debating over if ds is an anti tunneling perk or not. Which only strengthens your point.
Since stuff like can the other three survivors punish the tunneling by sticking to gens and all that stuff, is tunneling really bad, should a survivor get rewarded for being tunnel, how effective is it as a tactic vs low skill and high skill players, all seems pointless without everyone coming to a common agreement on what tunneling means. With the people in the threat going killers bad, not really helping at all. Since all this game does is go kill the survivors. Not really much knowledge on how to do that. I could throw a random guide off youtube, that would be way more helpful and indepth than what the game teaches you. Since if we were to come up with a common meeting everyone agree on as to what tunneling means. It could just be players who don't know any better and lack experience in playing killer that are doing this, rather than being pure evil who are out to ruin the lives and days of others as some on the forums would make anyone who plays killer out to be or maybe the tactic is very effective and needs to be look over. Alot of interesting topics that could be talk about but sadly can't, due to lacking a clear common meaning as to what tunneling is.
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I think reworking DS would be fine.
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In my opinion broken game mechanics or unfun aspects of the game such as tunneling, camping, SWF, gen speed, ... should NEVER be plaster fixed by perks. People feel obligated to run specific perks just to combat these broken mechanics and that drains all the fun out of trying other perks because if they do, they get tunneled or overwhelmed by the gen speed.
I genuinely think that this "plasterfix mentality" the devs have is an actual problem for the games health. That said, pointing out these broken mechanics is one thing, coming up with a solution is another and I'll be honest: for a lot of these unfun aspects of the game, I wouldn't know either how to handle them in a way that is fair for both sides.
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Its not anti tunnel. If it were it wouldnt let you repair gens, heal yourself or others and bodyblock the knowing full well you have 60 seconds of impunity.
Its anti momentum. It punishes killers for being good amd getting fast downs.
I got hit by 2 DS in one match yesterday from downing full health survivors I found on gens. And I never hook a player twice in a row.
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heck just holding W can net your team 20 or so seconds. More if a single pallet is nearby.
If you get dsed on midwich its literally not worth commiting to the chase unless your the blight or huntress or something.
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Your name is Toxic Myers.
I don't really care what you have to say...
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You give me 2x bloodpoints on top of BBQ for just leaving the hook for 20 seconds, you can bet your ass, I'll sit in a corner and sing a song while doing it XD That's all the motivation I need XD
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Survivor meta is to tunnel down those gens fast af boi. You could argue "ThAtS oUr ObJeCtiVe!".
Killers killing doesn't seem to be their objective it seems.
And the more survivors cry about killers killing, the more the devs take the easy route and implement quick fix changes for survivor tears instead of reworking the objective of killers by giving them better tools to punish risky rescues. YOU are live bait on that hook, the killers property and if he has no incentive to leave why should he?
Stop asking for more as survivors and start asking for more for killers because at the moment, tunneling and camping is still a very viable strategy if implemented correctly and it will not change so long as it is still a viable strategy.
If the rescuer became exhausted for unhooking I can assure you that you will see less unsafe unhooks and less tunneling because the lil brain Nea's wont stitch you up for an immediate follow up hook.
Trade some of the rescuers resources to the rescued. For example 10% movement speed from the rescuer to the rescued for x amount of time. IDK ######### do something.
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