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Giving Pig Ghostface's Crouch
The main issue with Pig's ambush is that you can simply run away. Sure, you can theoretically predict it and uncrouch, but this relies on there not being another tile even remotely close by. It's also just not as fun as landing a dash. So why not just let Pig crouch instantly, like Ghostface? It wouldn't make her broken in the slightest, and it means you wouldn't have to change her dash itself, since that's fine as is.
Her uncrouch could even stay the same, it's just her slow crouch that gives a bit too much time for the survivor to just leave the tile.
(And before I get a specific someone saying Pig is A tier because lol stats, just realize that logic matters more than stats in a game like DBD. There are too many variables to consider, and that makes applying any sort of pure-numbers system to this game less than ideal.)
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this is the buff she needs, maybe not at the same speed as GF but way faster than it currently is would be a change everyone would welcome. I personally also think they should change the ambush roar to start after she starts her dash. it would give survivors less time to react and she would potentially be able to hit sprint burst users more.
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I mean, any buff to Pig would probably be appreciated. I think same speed as GF would be fair, personally, since as a survivor you still have the option to maneuver around most tiles and avoid the dash. It's a pretty equal 50/50.
As for that second part, that would mean we can't oink anymore :(
Have you tried uncrouching and going for a grab at gens instead of ambushing? Most of the time you get the hit anyway, and you have a chance of getting a free hook if they're not paying attention.
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I wish I could activate my own traps. I don't even use Pig's Ambush unless it's to farm points, since you can get into melee range and use it for a hit--provided there's no pallets or vaults nearby.
Currently, Ambush serves no purpose, other than to Crouch and nullify your terror radius at times when traveling. You can keep the Undetectable rolling without losing too much speed when commuting, but why hit people when you can exit crouching and just pull them off of something?
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Pig is D tier now... like old Freddy and old Bubba..
Just wait for her to be reworked... and she will become beast
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Ambush is fine. It's great even. And landing a perfectly tipped Ambush is the most satisfying thing in the game for me.
What she needs if anything from GF's crouch is the walking speed, nothing else.
Pig is WAY better than old Freddy or Bubba! Just because you can't mindlessly chase like half the other killers and have to somewhat plan doesn't mean she's terrible.
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Nope , She is terrible... Just count in your last 100 games when play as survivor... how many times u face pig ? and how many times you meet good pig ? majority says that bro...
I already max pig at level 50 with almost 5 bar killer skills and now I regret .... It's better to spend the bloodpoint at nurse, spirit , oni and doc....
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Yeah, Ive had thst thought too. Maybe additionally raise her eye position in crouch a bit.
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I rarely see Pig, and you know who else J never see? Trapper, Clown, Freddy, Demo, Plague, Oni, Deathslinger, never seen a Blight..........
So please. Tell me that ALL of these are on the same level as Pig.
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it's depend on player who use the killer bro... If it's Otz or Tru3 maybe even pig , clown , trapper, plague will be a good killer...
if it's me or the majority who is so-so on using killer... then become a potato killer...
IMO... clown , trapper , wraith, and demo are the same level as pig ...
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I wouldn´t be opposed to the idea, the pig mains out there have been through a lot. On the other hand it seems unfair that Pig should get the same crouch as GF while having a chase tool built into it, something that GF lacks (both can mindgame using undetactable).
So to make it more fair it should either just be a tad faster and not be on GF´s level or considerably increase the windup for the dash in my opinion.
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I agree, but there is more important... its useless traps !😀
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I get annoyed every time I see someone calling pig bad.. The fact that you can't play her doesn't mean she's not a great killer. She IS one of those killers that take practice to master and play well, but if you invest a bit of time, you can go on par with any survivor team - slow crouch or not. Pig doesn't need a buff.
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Yea, Mandy definitely either needs a total rework for her traps to make them more reliable as slowdown, or she needs her stealth ability buffed.
As cool as her Dash can be right now, it's still half a power and there are no few situations that can reduce her to just an M1 Killer.
She may be performing well over all currently, but her power is definitely not as good or fun as it could be.
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We're really comparing Ghostface to Pig? GF doesn't automatically gain Undetectable and can't game you into thinking they left the area.
Also the Pig dash is 170% run speed. You can literally catch up to and hit someone mid chase using it.
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Sorry, you can't just quickly crouch. You need to climb Tibet mountain and join shaolin monks first. Then, only after 10 years of intensive crouching you can learn to do it quick and quiet. :^)
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Late as #########, but here we go
I'm not saying Pig is bad, I'm saying her ambush could use a little tweaking, so she can use it more often. This raises Pig's skill cap and rewards players for using her dash more often, which in my opinion, is her most fun power.
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That's interesting. Could you provide me with video evidence or something of you getting this hit (i.e. crouching mid-chase and ambushing to catch up to them, not at a tile), when a normal W+M1 wouldn't? I'm genuinely curious to see if me and most other Pig mains have been missing something.
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Ambush is really satisfying, yeah. It's considerably less satisfying when the survivor sees you crouching, and runs to another tile. Even if you predict that and uncrouch, it's just not as fun as landing that perfectly-tipped ambush, is it?
This tweak is pretty much designed to enable Pig to use her dash more often, rather than making it more powerful, if that makes sense. It's a fun power, just rarely usable if survivors decide to run.
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I'd argue current Freddy, Demo, Plague, Oni, Deathslinger and Blight are better than Pig, personally.
- Freddy has insane map control and a bullshit chase power
- Demo has similar map control to Freddy, and a much more balanced chase power that's easily-executable
- Plague is either a perma-T3 Myers or a 115 Huntress, depending on how survivors play
- Oni is Oni
- Blight has the perfect balance of map control and chase
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I mean, sure! The goal of this rework is to lower the amount of time a survivor has to react to her crouching; preferably enough where they're forced to 50/50 the Pig in most situations. If her ambush was any stronger than it currently was, this would be unfair - however, in my opinion at least, her power has a good amount of counterplay at tiles. The problem is that it's just infinitely easier to abandon the loop and make her waste time.
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Not denying that! It's just that I was taking a sledgehammer to BestGame's little theory/statement that killers you rarely see are "bad".
Nurse is almost never played, yet is always considered to be the top killer in the game, after all.
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That is definitely not true regarding the dash being able to catch up to someone mid-chase. Even if you go best-case scenario Combat Straps + Video Tape/John's Medical File, you are not landing a hit mid-chase with ambush unless you are close enough that you are able to just M1 anyways. If it were true, Pig would basically render Legion and Blight obsolete.
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I understand what you're saying, but in my opinion it will lower her skill cap, not increase it. There are not that many killers left that require some thought and practice to use their power. I'd hate to see pig turn into another freddy
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Understandable, I don't want to see Pig turn into Freddy either. That's why I haven't suggested directly buffing her dash's length or duration; my problem isn't with how strong the dash is, it's how little a good survivor will let you use it. As of now, if you get a survivor who runs from the loop, there is little reason to use her dash at all - this, to me, means there is little incentive to learn the most skilful part of her power.
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Well, with pallet loops that you can see over you can still force a survivor away without losing any distance by just using your crouch and baiting a dash. Not really a skillful play, but it does work on good survivors.
One example of where the dash is really good are loops without Los (e.g. Jungle gyms) it's always pretty satisfying when you pull off a moon dash (sliding backwards on the wall whilst dashing) that nets you a hit. Increasing the crouch speed will just make it pointless to learn how to make plays like this, because they won't be necessary anymore, as most of the time you'll just get hits by dashing forward.
That's why I think buffing her dash/crouch will make her into another freddy
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"Not really a skillful play..." We want Pigs to make skilful plays, don't we? Baiting the dash and uncrouching isn't nearly as skilful as actually landing the dash, so we want to encourage Pigs to commit to more dashes.
I don't think increasing the crouch speed would lead to "just dash forward" being the best play. The dash itself would still take a second to charge up - we'd need to give Medical File and Tape new functionalities - so the survivor still has plenty of time to make it to a pallet or window if they're at a tile. And if they're not at a tile, you would likely get the M1 anyway. Still plenty of room for skilled plays, less incentive to just W+M1.
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On your first paragraph - my point was that she has ways in her kit to already deal with open pallet loops and other common situations,so she doesn't need a buff for those. Furthermore, with practice she can also deal with chases where most other killers struggle. She's just as good in a chase as clown, but she also has her traps, which remove any need to run slowdown perks.
It seems that you're suggesting minor tweaks that won't really make her stronger, but I imagine they'll just either reduce her skill cap.. Or otherwise be so minor that they won't really make an impact
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Okay, I have a couple things to say here:
- Yes, she can theoretically deal with open pallet loops. This is not the problem I seek to address. Her dash needs to be usable more often, so "just fake the dash" doesn't really apply here.
- She can deal with chases where other killers struggle, yes. If the survivor chooses to stay at the tile. This is the problem I want to deal with.
- Yes, she has traps. This is... completely irrelevant to what I want to tweak.
- Comparing Pig to Clown really doesn't help your case here...
- I'm suggesting small changes, but by no means minor ones. This is easily Pig's greatest problem right now, at least from an enjoyment perspective. She needs to be able to use her dash more often than she can now. She doesn't need a more powerful dash, just a more available one.
So you're right in most or all of what you've said, but these points are not the problems I'm bringing up.
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Where we're at a disagreement is that you think pig has a problem and I don't. Simple as. We can go around in circles all we want but my point will stand - you can use pig's power as long as you take the time to learn how to use it. Crouch or Dash-spamming won't make pig any more fun to play, she'll just not require you to have a brain anymore.
And just to address your comment about clown - he is one of the strongest chasers in the game, who can quickly shut down any loop. He lacks on other areas, but as you said, that's not the point. Pig is comparable in terms of chase potential.
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...Or you could acknowledge that I have made several good points. You can agree to disagree, sure, but I'd really appreciate at least some effort to have a good-faith conversation. You seem to have completely ignored me.
"You can use pig's power as long as you take the time to learn how to use it." May I introduce you to a friend of mine? He was one of the first Pig mains, and in his prime, arguably one of the best. Near if not at Scorpionz's level. My friend and I both agree something needs to be done about Pig's dash, and even Scorpionz has agreed in the past that it would be nice if survivors were incentivized to stay at the loop. You seem to think I consider Pig to be a ######### tier killer... that's not the case at all.
"Crouch or Dash-spamming won't make pig any more fun to play, she'll just not require you to have a brain anymore." Snuck premise. You've made this argument on the assumption that giving Pig a faster crouch will mean she can just spam her dash and get an unavoidable hit. In practice, this would not be the case, because the dash has not been changed. You would still need to take control of the pallet, fake going one direction and go the other, etc. You could even throw in a moondash or two if you felt like being fancy.
May I ask if you have a problem with Demogorgon?
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Sorry man, can we just agree to disagree? I really can't be bothered typing out a 3-page reply, that's why I'm not acknowledging every one of your points.
Regarding your question as to whether I have a problem with demo - my problem with him is that he makes my game run like a sideshow, so I can't really play him unless I've just restarted my console, thus I rarely do.
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Im a pig main and I rarely use her crouch and I never use her dash and I wreck teams with her.
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What I’d be interested in is a little more detail on Pig being almost as high as Freddy in the kill rates that the devs showed last week. She has the second highest kill rate among all games and fourth highest among games with red rank killers. I kind of hope Ethan does a followup third graph that shows games where all five players are red rank and see where Pig lands on that chart. My guess at the moment is that it might be that Pig’s stealth and reverse traps work best on average players but are relatively weaker against top players. (Stealth works best against players with less situational awareness, for instance, and the traps work best against players who aren’t already efficient at finding the boxes and knowing when they can work on a gen versus getting the trap off.)
In the overall I doubt based on Ethan’s charts that they’re looking to buff Pig any time soon, unless maybe they think her pick rate is too low. It’s hard to justify a buff of a killer whose kill rates are among the highest in the game.
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Nurse is last in the list by a long shot, last I checked. I think that should be enough of a tip-off that stats mean very little.
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Okay, good for you. Her dash could still be a bit more accessible to people who want to use it.
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If you'd like, sure, but Pig still needs a tweak to her ambush.
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Stats don’t “mean very little”, they just might not mean what you think they mean. Nurse is obviously last in the list because she is extremely unforgiving of errors and very difficult to play. She has extremely high potential is you can hit her blinks consistently but most players simply can’t.
Pig having a very high kill rate is a different story. The usual consensus is she’s not that great, so having a really high kill rate just raises the question of why? It’s not similar to Nurse at all.
Basically while these two charts aren’t the entire story they’re also not literally meaningless. It’s a mistake to completely discount broad statistical measurements that indicate something isn’t happening randomly.
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I don't disagree, for people who want to use the dash sure they can fix that.
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Pig's high kill rate most likely comes from the Tampered Timer/Box of Gears or Jigsaw's Annotated Plan combo, or just plain bad luck on the survivors' part when searching boxes. There's also the fact that on some maps (usually larger ones), boxes spawn ludicrously far apart. Pig's high kill rate is undeniably influenced by her luck-based RBTs, not that her power is good on a skill-based level. I would advocate for reducing the randomness of her boxes, while making her ambush more consistently available.
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Actually I suspect only a small percentage of her kills are directly from a trap killing someone, let alone kills that happen in games with specific combos using rare add-ons versus the rest of games involving Pigs that don’t have those add-ons equipped. In fact the traps main benefits for Pig aren’t killing survivors themselves, it’s that they force survivors off gens toward the boxes which both gives Pig more time to get downs and makes the survivors who are going to the boxes more vulnerable if the Pig chooses to focus on downing them again.
That being said there’s no avaialble data one way or another as far as I know on exactly how many of Pigs kills are from Game Over trap events. Without that number it’s all speculation.
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You'd be surprised how often bear traps get triggered with Timer. I remember Otz getting 5 game overs in 5 games or something, but I can't find the vid. Dunno if it's on his YT or his Twitch.
And yes, I am 100% aware traps are for stall. That's why Timer should be reworked -- the threat of dying should be something to force survivors to deal with the trap. It shouldn't actually be a threat unless they just ignore it.
Theory and practice matter more than statistics in a game like DBD, especially since at least one dev has come out and said the stats are unreliable. Pig's ambush just needs a little tweak to become a more viable chase power.
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Giving her the ability to crouch instantly combined with dash charge addons would be broken as all hell, as it woul dbe used to basically catch a survivor running to a pallet or window.
If survivors r leaving a loop as ur crouching, then start walking after then as soon as you start crouching and just uncrouch and hit them.
Although i do agree her ambush could be improved in some way this is not the way to do it i feel.
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The whole skill factor of pigs ambush however comes from teh mindgame of whether or not the survivor is going to run away. If a survivor doesn't break away and the pig notices and ambushes, the survivor can't really do anything because a pig can easily outrun a survivor around a loop.
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Theory only really matters if it’s backed up by statistical evidence. We players unfortunately don’t have a ton of stats to go by, but that doesn’t make the stats we have entirely meaningless. If a theory seems to disagree with the general stats we have then you can’t just assume the theory is correct without addressing the discrepancy. In this thread the theory in question is that Pig is the weakest killer in the game next to Clown, but the stats we have indicate Pig is one of the stronger killers in terms of kill rate. That obviously doesn’t mean the stats are the full story, but it certainly also doesn’t mean they can be entirely ignored nor that the statement about her being the worst killer is right.
Also, let’s say hypothetically that the Pig’s traps do kill people in a significant number of games. If anything that makes her stronger, not weaker, as a killer overall and would be yet another contradictory piece of data against her being the weakest killer.
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Dunno if it'd be OP, especially since Demogorgon can quite literally do just that. But I would want charge addons to be removed anyway.
As for the second part, yes, you can "just uncrouch and hit them." That's not what I want to address. It's much more satisfying and skilful to actually land a dash, rather than a basic M1--wouldn't you agree?
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I disagree wholeheartedly; when the survivor stays at a loop, it's still a 50/50 mindgame on most tiles. There are a few short ones where the odds are tilted in the Pig's favour, true, but it's still totally possible to avoid a dash.
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"Theory only really matters if it’s backed up by statistical evidence. We players unfortunately don’t have a ton of stats to go by, but that doesn’t make the stats we have entirely meaningless."
The stats are meaningless, or at least close to meaningless, because "kill rate" is not influenced solely by how good a Killer is at high levels of play. The fact that Nurse is ranked last in kill rate undeniably demonstrates this. I'm not saying that "Nurse has a low kill rate because she's hard to learn, and new players pick her a lot" is an invalid defense by any means, because of course it's a valid defense. My point is that it proves "high kill rate" and "low kill rate" mean very little when it comes to how good a killer is.
"If a theory seems to disagree with the general stats we have then you can’t just assume the theory is correct without addressing the discrepancy. In this thread the theory in question is that Pig is the weakest killer in the game next to Clown, but the stats we have indicate Pig is one of the stronger killers in terms of kill rate. That obviously doesn’t mean the stats are the full story, but it certainly also doesn’t mean they can be entirely ignored nor that the statement about her being the worst killer is right."
Where have I said that Pig is the worst Killer, or even a bad Killer? This is a strawman argument; we agree that Pig is not necessarily a bad Killer, so let's not waste time arguing it.
"Also, let’s say hypothetically that the Pig’s traps do kill people in a significant number of games. If anything that makes her stronger, not weaker, as a killer overall and would be yet another contradictory piece of data against her being the weakest killer."
Not necessarily. That doesn't make her stronger, because RBTs are luck-based. There is no consistent strength in RNG.
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The stats are meaningless, or at least close to meaningless, because "kill rate" is not influenced solely by how good a Killer is at high levels of play. The fact that Nurse is ranked last in kill rate undeniably demonstrates this. I'm not saying that "Nurse has a low kill rate because she's hard to learn, and new players pick her a lot" is an invalid defense by any means, because of course it's a valid defense. My point is that it proves "high kill rate" and "low kill rate" mean very little when it comes to how good a killer is.
All Nurse proves in the stats is that the correlation between kill rate and effective ceiling of a character isn't 100%. It by no means proves that there is no correlation at all, only that the correlation isn't perfect. Nurse is an obvious outlier in that correlation, almost all the other killers seem to be roughly ranked where they should be based on kill rate and popular tier lists.
Also note that a low kill rate can be pretty easily explained, as with Nurse, if the character has a particularly steep learning curve. Explaining away a statistically high kill rate though is more difficult. If a character has a really high kill rate then what exactly is the dynamic that is causing them to get more kills than average that also doesn't make them a "good" killer?
Where have I said that Pig is the worst Killer, or even a bad Killer? This is a strawman argument; we agree that Pig is not necessarily a bad Killer, so let's not waste time arguing it.
Where did I say that you said that? I said that the thread has that argument in it, I didn't attribute that argument to you specifically. (e.g. about the third or fourth post down is a post saying Pig is D-tier)
Not necessarily. [traps killing people in a significant number of games] doesn't make her stronger, because RBTs are luck-based. There is no consistent strength in RNG.
Random events average out over a significant number of games. If the traps actually give a statistically significant number of extra kills for Pig it makes her stronger on average than if they didn't.
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It's not hard to land a pig dash if a survivor doesn't run away tho. I just read ur other comment and its more than just a 50/50. All you have to do is flick one way and then run the other and the survivor literalyl cannot react intime. It's like spirit's "50/50". That's why the skill comes with baiting it or not, because if a survivor stays at a loop with an ambushing pig then they will go down if the pig is half decent. It's like staying at a loop with a pyramid head. You never do that.
Also loops which are bigger are almost impossible to land dash hits at, there's almost no inbetween. The big problem i see coming if runnign away from a loop was made a bad tactic as survivor is that pig's counterplay will become drop the pallet instantly, just like deathslinger and freddy and all that stuff.
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