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Possible Balancing for DS
Comments
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Tunneling late game is not an issue tho, more often than you think, late game tunneling is actually necessary. All DS is meant to do, is prevent players from being sacrificed early in game. In my opinion, this means preventing survivors from dying before they had the oppertunity to get a black pip. If they didnt get at least a black pip in late game, they deserve to be sacrificed.
I mean, lets set up a late game situation: you have a survivor who got hooked before first gen, this survivor somehow managed to avoid the killer the remainder of the game untill there are 2 generators left. Then the killer gets her and hooks her again. The killer has 0 sacrificed people and needs 1 survivor dead to continue his own momentum. It would be incredibly idiotic to call that killer a tunneller for securing a kill when 2 generators are left. If it was a sweaty SWF rushing 3 gens, then it also doesnt matter anymore, because its a sweaty SWF and they deserve to be sacrificed ASAP.
So really, tunnelling late game doesnt really exist. There are probably 1-3 types of situation where I could consider the killer still tunnelling late game, but then you're definitely on the boundary of situations that could be considered tunnelling. If 4 survivors are alive when there is 2 gens left, 1 simply needs to die. It is why you see a lot of Ivory Mori's happen somewhere around 2-3 gens.
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By late game, I just meant not immediately. And it is a problem: petty little killers that just want their 1 undeserved pity kill will absolutely tunnel and camp in the actual late game, despite having no reward for it at all. This is the most common time where I see tunnelers get DS'd, and good killers avoid it, because good killers snowball.
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in regards to its interaction with the killer it is fine but DS allows for free progress on gens which is one of the main problems with it.
if the only change to DS was it being deactivated after being on a gen for more than 3 seconds it would make this perk way more fair.
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Thing is tho, you cannot avoid that. Even with the changes everyone else suggested, Ebony Mori is still extremely common in bloodwebs and bypasses all that anyway. The only reason those killers ever tunnel and/or camp is because they ran out, even though I cant see any reason you'd run out of Ebony's. I literally did an experiment on how many Ebony Mori's I could get while levelling a killer to level 50 and then try my hardest to get rid of all of them while still spending BP and getting more Ebony Mori's. After 50 games, I still had enough to continue but after that I got bored.
Obviously I used BBQ to maximise bloodpoint output, but there are some bloodwebs where you get 2 Ebony's and sometimes survivors use BPS or Ghastly Gateau, all earning me enough bloodpoints to keep on feeding the Ebony Mori train. I didnt enjoy any of the games I played, I just wanted to know if it was a legitimate strategy, and I am actually disgusted that it could be if you had some lucky RNG.
I might actually do it again, as I happen to be leveling a killer I am currently prestiging, and considering P3 has the highest chance of getting ultra rare offerings, I want to experiment with how long the reign of Ebony Mori can be. I do tend to be able to predict where the Entity will start consuming next fairly accurately and essentially play a game of bloodweb chess and win most of the time, making some bloodwebs only cost 30k BP to get to the next one(especially if it has nothing I want). If it ends up giving me more Ebony Mori's than I can use(again), I will definitely make a post about it, urging to change Ebony immediately.
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If you want to know a fun and completly unrelated fact about Ebony Mori's, Billy used to be able to take one into every single game because each level 50 bloodweb had one because he had no pink add-ons. Huntress can almost do the same. Yay bloodweb design.
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I agree that in matches where the survivors aren't really pressing it's not a big deal, and I see where you're coming from on that. In many games you can eat a DS and not be completely screwed, even at red rank. My comment was basically assuming survivors that are playing optimally that you'd want to counter by playing optimally. I don't have the motivation to reply in as much detail as that deserves, but I did read it!
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Being tunneled has nothing to do with most of those factors. If you're chased straight off the hook over chasing otehr nearby survivors you're benig tunneled.
Being unhooked and found again a minute later on a gen because everyone else was hiding isn't being tunneled.
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You killer mains think your all that matters
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Again, I don't think I should be called biased for offering on topic suggestions. Where's your idea, buddy?
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Nobody would do gens. And solo Q is bad as it is
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Why wouldn't anyone do gens? It incentives the anti tunneling mechanic while balancing it so that if they start doing objectives they are now vulnerable instead of invincible basically
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If ds deactivates when they touch a gen....i think you can assume the rest. People who abuse ds want use out of it
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Any survivor worth its salt is not going to let you down them again after you ate the DS, DS is not fine because of what you are allowed to do during its duration. (this is literally why they nerfed PGW)
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I'm kinda new in the game (200 hours) and i play only as killer (i tried solo survivor but it's not fun as killer) and i don't see problem in DS, but some times i cross a survivor who i don't see since the hook and i get stabed on my back, i know its is the perk mechanics and is part of the game ...
but i have a suggestion who probably already was debated here, its would be 2 changes on the perk:
First: When outside of the killer terror radius (or N meters) the time window (60 seconds) runs faster, like 1.3x so if far away from the killer (not being tuneled) the duration is shorter (42 seconds)
Second: If healed for 1 health state it's canceled.
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Then how would this be an issue? If they don't do gens, the game is slowed and makes it more difficult on the survivors while also giving them the option to either save the ds or to do a gen.
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Make the stun time 3 seconds but have it last 120 seconds
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People just wouldnt do gens. It would be harder for survivors. Think about both sides here
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Except a killer can "shadow" tunnel, keeping enough distance to not start a chase untill the timer is done. Again, you would need to fully define tunneling in terms of gameplay mechanics before you could change DS. All those factors I mentioned matter. Why? Ill go off the list
- if there is 2 people left, is chasing the unhooked survivor tunneling? There is only 1 other target you could chase, not many options. I wouldnt call that tunneling.
- If your team has everyone hooked twice, but you just got off your first hook. Would it really be tunneling if the remainder of options include death? I would argue not.
- What if you down someone who was off the hook, then chase someone else, come back after almost a full minute only to get stunned, did you truly tunnel that person?
- If there is 1 generator left and the killer has been quite brutal, is tapping the 1 gen left to stop regression truly reason enough to no longer calling it a tunnel? The killer could have gotten Dragon's Grip to benefit from that situation anyway if the survivor got a quick heal off hook, so why punish a survivor harshly for doing what needs to be done to not sandbag your team? I dont see a single situation where that suddenly stops being a tunnel unless the survivor actually starts working on a generator, in which case, that is a fair strategy. You could down the survivor anyway, you dont need to grab him/her.
Its not as easy as you assume. If you think it is, you havent considered the implications it will have on the game. Deactivating it without any consideration is like slapping ductape on a crack in a wall and calling it fixed. You might no longer see the crack at first, but over time, it will continue to grow.
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You've literally only been biased tho. You've only complained about the issues that DS cause without even thinking about the reason why the game needs(yes NEEDS) a perk like DS in the first place. There are plenty of killer perks that are much stronger than DS. Not including the fact that there are 500000 ways to get a survivor out of the round before the first generator even popped, 300000 of which do not include the skill of the survivor and of those 300000, you have at least 50000 that dont even require skill at all.
Meaning you literally can be removed from the game before you even have the oppertunity to earn your #########, regardless of skilllevels between survivors and killers. DS is one of the few perks that addresses that issue, nerfing it in ways I've seen suggested also affect that part of DS. That is why I call out the killer bias, because killer-only mains tend to ignore the survivor experience rather than acknowledging why things were needed in the first place. Undying was needed because of hex totem spots being remembered by every survivor, so Undying gets bigger value out of most totems. Except in the case of Ruin, where it made a balanced perk(it was average, not too strong, not too weak) completely overpowered.
DS is fairly balanced as it is, it just needs more insurance that DS doesnt survive untill the EGC to the point that the only way to have DS active in the EGC requires you never being hooked before due to its massive power during the EGC.
I mean, lets say I gave the following suggestion: Cleansing Undying should cleanse all hextotems at the same time. You'd totally call me out on having a bias towards survivors and you would be fully in your right to do so, because it only benefits survivors.(altho, you could simply add in more so that cleansing any hextotem randomizes EVERY hex totem, in which case, undying would be a double edged sword, which actually could be nice. But that doesnt take away that the initial suggestion is filled with bias).
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And I think that is definitely where we meet in the middle. I really think the idea I developed would massively decrease the power of an optimal SWF as they have no way of keeping DS untill the EGC, without screwing over people who play casually. And that is the hardest part of balancing, not making things impossible for casual play without making it impossible to play against in competitive play. Ofcourse it might need some tweaking here and there, but for a solution that could be implemented right now, I think its worth giving it a try in a PTB to see how much it affects the game.
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Pop Goes The Weasel's issue was a bit different tho. 1 pop use fully negates the total stuntime of 4 ds's. 4 pop uses fully negate the time gained by survivors using the 4 DS's, and after that, you could still get more pops off. DS is only single activation, single use. Pop definitely had a bigger priority to a nerf than DS purely based on that alone. The average chase is 30 seconds per healthstate. That allowed Pop to be applied to a generator after 40% of chases and then getting a new Pop. You cant use DS after a chase and then re-use it later on. Let alone that the effects of DS gets weaker the less survivors there are, while Pop only grew in strength with less survivors.
Comparing them isnt even fair. DS is so notable because killers encounter it all the time, but killers have access to perks that have essentially the same power as survivor perks, but multiplied by at least 5, fully countering those survivor perks and having room for 1 more survivor to counter.
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Problems with that tho:
- There are plenty of perks, addons and abilities that fully remove the terror radius
- There are plenty of instadowns in the game that fully negate being healed up(let alone that Adrenaline and NOED exist, having Adrenaline negate DS while NOED allows instadowns is a bit unfair).
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Again, I don't think it's biased to address an on topic problem the game has. The topic is fixing DS and these were my suggestions. I play both sides, by the way. But lets go down your route. Since you seem to have a survivor bias, let me ask you; Do you believe DS should be a perk, hindering the skill cap of both sides, or do you think a DS-like mechanism should be built into the game, so survs can't run it into killers (which is a big part of red ranks) and make killers learn that tunneling (early game) is not the play?
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DS should remain a perk, the issue with killers is slugging and rushing kills. Slugging should have some negative impact on killer gameplay. Perhaps boosting other survivors in some way. DS already deals with killers rushing kills, but that doesnt solve the problem because there are still games without any obsession that allow killers to essentially remove anyone they please.
Personally, I rather see someone being the obsession by default, regardless of perks in the game. I dont see any reason not to at this point. Survivors dont know who has the obsession perk and killers would have to care about DS by default.
And yes, I still think that offering a solution that makes DS essentially a killer perk is biased. Yes, survivors actually NEED perks and addons that allow them to tank hits with very little consequence. It's OP during the EGC, but lets be fair, there are many more matches where you get a 3k than matches where 3 survivors escape. If 3+ survivors survive to the EGC, have BT and actually get the unhook, they deserve to be able to bodyblock their way out of the game. Those type of games only happen once every 200 games in the first place and you simply got outplayed.
As for BT, just hit em. The sooner you hit them, the less they can block you and they are either slugged or need to mend. Killers have plenty of ways around survivor perks, survivors barely have any way around killer perks unless they happen to have the exact counter to that perk.
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No, so I don't have to deal with DS and so the survivors cant get to their teammate
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I have come up with a possible overhaul of the mechanics of Decisive Strike, as part of a larger package of changes to narrow the gap between teams and solos and to discourage camping, tunneling and genrushing practices, which are notoriously hated by players: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/195904/the-final-reform-to-buff-solos-and-killers-accordingly#latest
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Yes, throwing the game. 1 full first hook sacrifice takes 120 seconds, it takes 80 seconds for survivors to do 3 gens. You dedicated time to the chase, so odds are that 1 generator is done already, if not almost done. If the survivors play seriously, you likely lost 2 generators relatively quickly. 1-2 generators done when you have 120 seconds on camping a hook, that leaves 3 survivors to split up, do 1 generator each and be down another 3 generators in 80 seconds. That's 4-5 generators gone and you camped. If you have noed, you might get a second one, if survivors dont decide to do totems in the remaining 40 seconds they have while you camp the hook. Let alone that they can easily escape if they actually did pop 2 gens early.
So yeah, you're actively throwing your own game by camping.
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Atleast I get the kill.
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It is interesting to only work at the beginning of the match or at the first hook in any case because it becomes a really strong invulnerability depending on the situation at the endgame. I mean, the whole concept of DS is to avoid tunneling, but most of the time I don't see it working that way.
Right now, on my limited experience it works in this way: I feel that as a killer I need to force people to use DS, so it doesnt become a powerfull hindrance later on. So instead of not tunneling I force myself to tunnel at least to receive the DS and get to another person if possible. And sometimes the DS doesnt come and I end up killing someone I wanted to spend the DS (that usually happens when you get those rainbow matchmaking situations).
Like, if it's on the beginning of the game people will just eat the DS no problemo, they will do it gladly. What I see DS being used by more experienced players is, for instance, to do a generator right in the face of the killer because if they grab or down they know how to escape afterwards just fine. And that happens in some cases after you hook or chase one or two other people depending on the pace of the game. I'd say if you did all that it seems like you are not tunneling.
I think your idea is good. I'd say if people still want more options maybe being possible to use on the second hook as well, but with the caveat that DS would only activate on second hook if not on endgame. If the gates are powered and you didnt use in your first hook, you lost your chance.
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It's balanced. Stop tunneling.
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What killer do u use to have to tunnel or what play style do you use and perks?
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I'm sorry to say this, but you talk like someone who's never played killer in their life. You think the solution to bad meta perk combos is "just play into them, they'll be gone sooner". My solution is "let's rework them out of scummy play styles." Can you see you're the one who's actually biased here?
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With that play style and lack of skill you definitely do need to learn how to play better because it is really easy to get rid of like everyone else has commented on here lol
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you forgot the /s
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In the same time you could have gotten 2 or more. Getting kills isnt really hard unless you play against survivors who can completely read your mindgames. In which case, losing that game is fine. You were outmatched, it happens, deal with it.
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It's a one time use thing that is very weak early game but a danm nuke during the EGC. I mean, thats like saying "rework noed" even though noed is fine as it is. If you rushed gens without ever considering NOED, you deserve being instadowned. If the killer is good already, then everyone is already injured and NOED wont really have any added effect other than having a strong camp play, but that killer would be good enough to realize they can capitalize on the fact that you're currently injured and is probably trying to go for a slug play.
So yes, its better to get an early game tickle and guarantee at least 1 or 2 DS perks gone so you have 1-2 targets that you can use as pressure levarage. They know they dont have any protection anymore, they will ask their friends who still have DS to take over. At which point, you have a chase with 1 survivor without DS and another survivor around you trying to grab your attention. Thats 2 survivors less on gens.
I have played a shitton of killer and a shitton of survivor. Any perk being permanently disabled for the rest of the match is a perk less to worry about. You already have to play around a lot of potentially dangerous perks, having it disabled before it can deal damage is simply the better play.
And no, obviously my solution isnt "just play into them", because otherwise I wouldnt have made this ######### post suggesting to rework DS in a way that is actually fair in terms of minimizing damage for killers. Having a confirmed heal and obsession change is a fair way to remove DS from the game for the remainder of the match. Its a free heal in a crucial state for the individual survivor, but on the grand scale of the entire match is simply a tap on the wrist for the killer. Essentially, if you do not rush a kill as killer right now, you dont get punished during the EGC for not picking up survivors early in game. But the punishment for actual kill rushing is a mere 5 second stun, meaning you actually get rewarded for tunneling, like someone else recently above also mentioned. Having a heal early on, but a stronger stun effect for those who rush the kill on first hook is balanced as a perk. THAT is my suggestion to change ds. The reason why I started countering YOUR claim, it was because you were trying to nerf it around the way that DS is being abused. Your rework of DS is essentially "work around the abuse", still allowing for other abuse while making the perk more complex and much more prone to bugs and weird glitches, rather than to "revamp the perk in a way that it cannot be abused at all".
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Nah, it can be abused in really dirty ways if you respect a DS as a killer, while the punishment on actual tunneling is minimal. It's literally promoting killers to get rid of DS and are then forced to keep tunneling and rush a kill if they want to be able to get more kills. That isnt balance. Not a single perk in the game should be a powercreep like that. Even devour hope gives you 2 full hooks warning prior to the murder. Even infiniT3 tombstone myers has a massive tell of taking more than 2 full generators to even get to T3. All powercreeps have their warnings and you can counterplay those warnings. As a killer, there isnt much counterplay to DS other than eating it early. The counterplay is literally to tunnel to stop its power from increasing.
If you dont see how unbalanced that is, and how unfun that playstyle is for both sides. Then you have no clue on the potential power of DS. It's design is fairly balanced in terms of gameplay, but its rarely used in a proper method.
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lol, keep telling that to yourself :D DS is fine and in a good spot right now. if you don't like the game's content and mechanics, stop playing and switch to fortnite or something
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Oh sure, a single perk that can easily be saved untill the EGC that has the power to change a potential 3k into a 4 man escape is in a good spot? Keep convincing yourself it is. It needs a higher risk to have that much power in the game, especially if the killer hasnt been using extremely powerful vanilla tactics in the first place.
You can imagine this game to be like a 4v1 game of chess. Both sides have very strong pieces that can heavily impact a match, but there are very few pieces in the game that can totally turn the outcome of the game. Autodidact, for example, is an extremely weak piece at first, but once you have those 5 stacks? You can constantly reset the board to a state that is in your favor. DS has the power to flip a board if the killer wants to rush a kill too fast. Early game, its punishment is minimal, so if you have the time as a killer, you would want to get rid of DS ASAP. But you dont always have time, so DS tends to survive another hook. Such a powerful piece simply needs an equal downside, being slugged isnt exactly a downside. NOED can be prevented. Devour can be gone before even getting a single stack. Dead Hard can be baited. Sprintburst requires a lot of exhaustion management throughout the game. Iron Will requires you to walk or crouch away for it to work in a situation where walking or crouching could be the difference between life and death. All the strong perks have a hefty downside. DS? Not really.
If you do not understand that in even the slightest, then you have no clue how the game works.
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DS risks are laughable. You can use it once, and you become the obsession, which does nothing in most of the trials.
Either DS needs more restrictions or drawbacks, or the obsession state should be detrimental to survivors by default ( without perks)
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The usage isnt the issue tho. Its a 1 time use perk and from that moment on you only have 3 perks. That alone is quite a drawback.
The issue is DS surviving easily into the endgame because the killer didnt eat the DS.
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