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Possible Balancing for DS
DS is a delicate topic but I think I found a solution to the problem.
Activates after being unhooked, get a 60 second cooldown. If the survivor gets picked up within 60 seconds, the killer gets stunned for 5 seconds. If the survivor is not picked up by the end of the 60 seconds, it wil recieve 1 health state. Both actions turn the survivor into the obsession and deactivates the perk for the remainder of the match.
There are ups and downs to it, but I think this is overall more balanced. For survivors it's obvious: They get a free heal in addition to the practically freed grasp and it has guaranteed use. But what does it mean for the killer?
It means that the survivor can only use DS after their first hook. Which means that killers only have a maximum of 4 uncertain moments instead of the current 11 possible moments. It massively decreases the chance of having any active DS during the EGC, it is 100% predictable, it allows you to play around DS in ways that dont require you to feel a bit like an ass and it doesnt even change the killers who do camp the body to down you once you get healed, because they would have done that anyway.
I know this will get moved to feedback but I would like to see if this concept has any merit.
Comments
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I don't really see DS much (or at least dont cause it to proc) as killer so I have no issues with this.
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Just eat the ds early. I've always tried to get it out of the game early because of the all too often egc ds
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This version will make tunneling on second hook way too easy.
It sounds like a weird mix between DS and Second Wind
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I wonder if a killer concerned with this version would just camp a hook until second stage to "play around ds" even to the point of throwing the match.
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I just want to say this but swfs that run ds, unbreakable,soul guard, and dead hard or bt Im gonna have to tunnel and camp cuz I mean wut am I supposed to do.
:(
I'm a rank 9 killer that gets red ranks.
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Just make it a single perk that grants 1 minute of immunity? You want to build in UB into DS, while addressing none of the issues that killers have with the perk being used as an offensive tool or end-game free escape?
DS really doesn't need a buff and even less counter play.
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no, this would make everyone just tunnel off second hook because nobody will have ds
just make it so ds has a deactivation condition so its solely an anti-tunnel perk (like hooking someone else will deactivate ds)
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Agree, if they remove the aura reading from B&C
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DS is fine. Eat it early, or slug them until it's deactivated. It's not that hard to do either option and this is something you all should be doing as killers anyways. Works for all ranks as well. Prepare for it, anticipate if and plan ahead for it. Use that noodle.
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DS is fine as is it doesn't need a Nerf again or a buff😖. People just need to stop complaining about DS and play better it's not that hard just eat DS early or just down them for a bit then grab them.
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I think DS should be left alone.
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Why should I have to "eat DS". That's like saying just run into insidious letherface. It's unfair, so let's fix it. Let's just make DS last 30s, and let it deactivate if you interact with something that isn't a window or pallet.
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It needs a nerf. You can play very well and still get hit by DS. I have lost count of how many times I have hooked 2 other people and still got hit by DS by the first person with DS, but I guess I just need to play better.
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Tunneling on second hook is indeed easier, but if you are such a tunneler, you would tunnel on first hook anyway. Since it guarantees a free heal, it saves time, doesnt force a killer to slug and means the survivor doesnt need to match it up with Unbreakable to counter it.
Essentially DS is to protect survivors from being removed from the match early on. Currently, it can be used as a weapon at the end of the game and it far too strong at doing so. And it is a weird mix between DS and Second Wind, but lets be honest, slugging isnt the solution to DS.
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Well, they would have to camp someone untill they are dead to "play around DS", because it would activate upon the first unhook, not deactivate upon second hookstage. And there are already killers who camp someone to death this way to "play around DS". This change doesnt really change the games of toxic killers, but it does massively improve the game of more casual killers. It allows them to slug someone after unhook for essentially free without the unhooked survivor going on a generator. The problem I see with DS is not on how it works, its on when it can work. DS in EGC is essentially a free escape for survivors(especially if they have Tenacity and/or Hope). Free escapes should not be guaranteed. The only way that DS could trigger in this version is if that survivor hasnt been hooked all game, which is an incentive to hook all survivors once ASAP, meaning the killer aggro is less focused on 1 individual, overall reducing the amount of survivors that get sacrificed before they have had the oppertunity to earn a black pip.
TL;DR: You cant change the way toxic play, you can improve the quality of gameplay for people who have to face against toxic players.
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That is the current strat, but not all games allow this. Sometimes you're in chase with someone else while someone with DS enters a locker nearby. You cant simply exit that chase to eat the DS, because having 2 hooks is better than having 1 hook and 1 DS. Let alone that it pretty much forces you to tunnel early on if you dont want to have any DS at the end of the game, meaning if you dont tunnel, you have potentially 4 free escapes because of a single perk. And that, no matter how you try to spin it, is too powerful for a single perk slot.
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Slugging shouldnt be a solution to a perk tho. Slugging is meant to be used to slow down the game. Slugging being the "solution" to DS is what created the DS Unbreakable combo in the first place, and that combo allows a survivor to essentially be untouchable after their hook. If they use Unbreakable, you still have another moment where you would need to slug to avoid DS. DS is a problem and has a massive impact on the way a lot of killers work. Having to assume every survivor has DS massively impacts the game in often a negative way because you cannot confirm it untill you pick them up. Meaning you have to find out all 16 perks survivors are running to exclude DS, and considering there are a ton of perks you cannot confirm either way, that means its practically impossible to find out if a survivor is running DS. It's essentially RNG in a game where RNG can already be the difference between a win and a loss, that is far too powerful to be essentially RNG.
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That is a really bad suggestion tho. Chases last 30 seconds at the very least. 30 seconds is waaaaay too short, and deactivating it when entering a locker is just BS because lockers are chase objects. As for touching a gen, no, it shouldnt deactivate on that too. DS is meant to protect survivors from being sacrificed in the early game. If DS should deactivate after 30 seconds, then Corrupt Intervention should only last 30 seconds aswell, allowing survivors to finish the game in 120 seconds. But you would disagree with that, you probably think Corrupt Intervention should last longer.
So why should killers be protected from an early game even if its really easy to black pip as a killer while survivors are denied such protection even though its pretty much guaranteed a pip loss if you die early? Seems like a massive killer bias if you ask me.
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If you intentionally eat DS, regardless of whether it's early or late, you're probably going to lose the match. You get no hook state, you gift the survivor a free health state, and you lose the pressure you would get by hooking or slugging a survivor. Even eating one DS can be enough to turn the tide of a match, let alone four.
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I think corrupt is fine until gen speeds are addressed. 30s is plenty of time to not be in a Chase. DS should help you not get tunneled off the hook, but currently survs are running clean into killers with it and borrowed time.
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Nah, DS is too powerful in late game. It needs the mechanic it has, but currently it negatively impacts killer gameplay. Sometimes you simply have survivors that you need to sacrifice ASAP and having to play around DS with those kind of survivors is simply impossible. If you think DS is fine as it is, go play killer and you'll see how much your gameplay exists around DS alone. It's the exact same reason why Undying and Ruin is too strong as a combination currently, because it forces you to play around Ruin the entire match rather than choosing to play around Ruin. I've even made the hardest killer achievement easily thanks to Ruin and Undying. That alone proves its too strong as a combination. But DS also has that effect on survivors. Survivors have reached originally hard achievements thanks to DS alone.
DS needs to be alterated, no matter how you spin it. The question simply becomes how. I am just one of many people suggesting something that could be a solution, and even though I am 100% biased to my own suggestion, I really think it could work the more I think of the effects it could have in the match.
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BBQ is fine as it is tho. It's aura reading isnt even close to being the best. Rancor, Bitter Murmurs, Nurses Calling, I'm All Ears all have stronger aura readings than BBQ does, especially considering they cannot be avoided by hiding in a locker. The biggest reason BBQ is being used is free bloodpoints for hooking unique survivors.
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Also, locker's aren't technically chase objects, as you'd never run into one in the killers face. The fact that there are so many ways to us this defensive perk offensively should be enough to warrant a Nerf.
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Hit people after they get unhooked and then chase their unhooker, if they have endurance from BT, they are forced to mend, meaning they cannot do gens untill they have mended. If they dont, you can leave them slugged while chasing the person who unhooked them or pick them up to get rid of DS early in game.
The first 2 actions gives people at most 2 people working on gens, because one is mending/slugged while another is being chased. The 3rd option allows you to have a guaranteed person that no longer has DS. The first 2 options slow down the game significantly, but temporarily, the 3rd option allows you to have a survivor you can remove from the game as soon as you need 1 removed, slowing down the game not as significant, but permanently.
I suggest running Thanatophobia with the first 2 actions, because that also slows down survivors who are on generators. Its not the best perk in the game, but it definitely gets value out of every single game where some stronger perks dont always get an equal value out of games.
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Thats false. I am more likely to win matches where I intentionally eat DS, I am more likely to lose matches where I get DS'd unintentionally. Having information is powerful. Its only a 20 second stun total. Pop Goes The Weasel alone reduces generators with 20 seconds per use. All DS's together are equal to 1 Pop. You get 1 Pop use per DS. Meaning you have access to 80 seconds reduction in survivor objective where survivors only have 20 seconds.
So you're wrong. If you lose because you intentionally ate DS, you didnt use the action of intentionally eating DS in your favour. And it pretty much has to be done early game. 5 seconds early game is extremely short. 5 seconds late game is extremely long. You do not want any DS to survive in the EGC or you lose. If you allow survivors to have any DS in the EGC, you have a guaranteed loss. If you eat all the DS early game, while there are still potential 3-gens in the game, you practically win the game.
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Actually, that is exactly how lockers are used. You run into one to avoid a hit, then run into another one to avoid another hit. If you time things well inside the killer shack, you can actually have enough time to vault out of the window. Besides, the Dev's also consider lockers to be part of a chase. Just look at the design of Dance With Me. Dance With Me was released before Head On and Inner Strength were even a thing. There is not a single reason to design Dance With Me to include lockers.
And the best offense is a good defense. Bloodwarden can be used to get a 4k, even though its a defensive perk. Haunted Grounds has massive offensive potential for a perk that is designed to protect your hex totems. Hag's defensive trap placement on a hook is used offensively all the time. Saying its being used offensively is no reason to cause a nerf. Otherwise Bloodwarden needs nerfing too, and we all know Bloodwarden doesnt need a nerf.
So again, your massive killer bias showing here.
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I understand what ur saying and agree w ur points.
But that OP'ness u mentioned is what makes the game fun.
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Undying and Ruin games are the most boring matches I have faced. Good killers dont need it, so you're stuck with a bad and/or toxic killer for a very long time. Just like DS and Unbreakable isnt really used by good survivors other than just a deterrant to toxic killers, but mostly used by survivors who simply arent good enough and have to rely on that power to reach higher ranks. Both are extremely boring. There are awful perks that lead to much more fun than the overly overpowered Undying/Ruin and DS/Unbreakable combo's.
At least, as long as those combo's allow terrible players to get good results, that is.
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I don't think I have a bias for addressing something that is unfair. I can't force Bloodwarden or haunted grounds, but I CAN body block with DS, forcing a lose/lose situation. You shouldn't have to just eat it early because its unfair at any stage of the game.
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The stun isn't where the waste of time comes in. It's 5 seconds for the stun. If the survivor just holds W they're going to be about 16m away from the killer (not 20m, but close, since there is a little delay before the survivor gets to start running). If the killer instantly sees the survivor and beelines towards them here's how long it takes to catch up:
4.6m/s*15s - 4m/s*15s = 9m made up by the time bloodlust kicks in, 15 seconds later4.8m/s*xs - 4m/s*xs = 7mx= 8.75sA chase actually only initiates when you're within 12m, so Bloodlust wouldn't even start accumulating for 4m / .6m/s = 6.7s. So, Bloodlust would actually kick in at 21.7s instead of 15s.
4.6m/s*21.7s - 4m/s*21.7s = 13m made up by the time bloodlust kicks in, 15 seconds later
4.8m/s*xs - 4m/s*xs = 3m
x = 3.75s
So, it will take the killer
23.75s~25.4s to catch the survivor that DS'd them. Let's just call it 20 seconds since the lunge means the killer doesn't need to make up the full distance and I'm also not sure exactly how long it takes the survivor to start running after using DS.So, if the survivor literally just holds W and doesn't loop you, that's 5 seconds of stun + ~20 seconds of chase + ~5 seconds of M1 cooldown & pickup time = ~30 seconds before you're in the exact same position you were when you ate the DS.
You're advocating for eating the DS early, just to get it out of the way. That means that the other three survivors are all probably alive when you're eating the DS. That means that you can expect ~90 seconds of gen progress from the other three survivors while you chase the person who DS'd you. That's more than one full generator. And again, this is if the survivor just holds W and doesn't try to loop you after! A 20 second chase after using DS is really the bare minimum unless the survivor is a potato or you're playing a highly mobile killer like Blight. For this reason, if you eat a DS, it often isn't even worth chasing the person who just DS'd you (unless if you want to tunnel them out of the match - in that case, maybe).
Ironically, if you eat a 5 second DS in the late game, you might have already killed some of the other survivors, so it actually wouldn't be quite as impactful in terms of the gen progress you give up. Even in the late game, though, it's pretty much never a good thing to eat a DS.
Edit: @Jeffalations
Edit 2: Updated math.
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That's just not true. I've had plenty of killers eat my DSs and absolutely destroy me later in the game. I think it needs to be changed, but until killers stop tunneling the ######### out of me I don't think it should be removed.
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How would you feel about 60 seconds still, but it deactivates when you interact with an objective or entering a locker, similar to what you were suggesting?
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That's fine. I don't have a problem with the time to be honest if it deactivates, but if you are actually being tunneled, I want the timer to pause. Does that make sense? 30-60sec unless you're being tunneled?
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You can bodyblock without DS too. Sure, its riskier without DS if I am injured, but if I have been hooked once and the survivor he is chasing has been hooked twice, its still better to bodyblock. And I agree its unfair in later stages of the game, but early game? Works perfectly as intended. DS early game has the same effect that NOED has lategame. DS prevents survivors from being removed easily in the early game while NOED prevents survivors from removing themselves too early in the EGC.
Considering survivors cant have hex totems without significantly impacting killer gameplay, there are 2 "easy" but fair solutions:
- add in a timer for early game that lasts 3 minutes and gets reduced with 1 minute everytime a generator has been fixed, during this time, DS has free reign, giving killers no reason to tunnel survivors at all.
- Give DS a secondary use that is guaranteed to trigger no matter what with both being a positive impact for survivors while also removing any RNG for killers.
I rather have the second one, because it is a counter to a slug mori, meaning the killer cant leave you slugged to come back and mori you while downing his second target in the meantime.
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That math is assuming there is a straight path AND assuming you chase after that survivor instantly. The intentional DS stun is about getting rid of DS, not about chasing that survivor. Let me include some factors you forgot about:
- the survivor will run away as far as possible from the killer and spend time to confirm wether or not the killer actually kept chasing him or her.
- Other survivors see DS being used and assume that you will be chasing the survivor instead.
- Survivors rarely split gens 1/1/1 to get the full 90 second bonus, odds are more likely its just a 70 second bonus due to a 2/1 gen split.
- All remaining survivors are indeed on gens, instead of doing totems, chests or trying to lure you away.
Intentionally triggering DS isnt about getting the person who has DS on the hook. Intentionally triggering DS is about getting rid of DS on that survivor for later in the game, while focussing on another survivor afterwards. Heck, I've dropped survivors who were in the DS timeframe and either missed or didnt have DS after they were unhooked, because they are confirmed without DS AND are useless untill they are picked up.
So lets redo the maths here:
Depending on which direction the survivor is running and the direction you're chasing. The survivor in question will first run directly to the first loopable tile they can reach, often without looking back because they only have 5 seconds and they need to make the most of it. After those 5 seconds, they will listen for the TR to get louder or softer before doing anything at all. If it gets louder, they will search from which angle you're coming from, if it gets softer, they will start looking for a generator or for a teammate to heal them up. Depending on which direction you went, this can keep a single survivor occupied for 10-30 seconds. Which is 10-30 seconds less of them working on gens. Within 30 seconds, most of the time, you already cleared a hit on another survivor. Meaning you have 2 survivors at least injured possibly 3 survivors occupied if the other one went for a heal and only 1 survivor on a generator.
Triggering DS and chasing the same survivor is a waste of time, which is why almost nobody who intentionally triggers DS chases the same survivor.
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DS on its own isnt unfair. It's lategame potential is unfair, which I am trying to address, but thats it. You cant force a DS, you require the killer to interact with you to force a DS to work. Just in the same way you cant force a Pop goes the Weasel, that requires a generator with progression and a hooked survivor. Just like DS requires you to be hooked and picked up to work. Any killer refusing to hit a survivor with DS is simply an idiot.
It is 100% bias, because you consider it to be unfair. You have 0 grounds to call it unfair. You know what is unfair? Killers are practically GUARANTEED to have a pip. Meaning its practically impossible to lose a pip. Survivors dont have that luxury, once they get removed, what their team does is irrelevant. Even if all 3 other survivors do all the gens and escape, you still lose a pip. Yet as killer? Even if you lose, you still have a black pip. Let alone the amount of bloodpoints you recieve. DS is far from being unfair. Lets take the maths of someone else and lets assume you chase the survivor you just got DS'd by and assume the survivors are doing a 1/1/1 gensplit. You take about 30 seconds before you down that survivor, meaning you have 90 seconds total of survivors being spread over 3 generators. That is the absolute worst case scenario you can face. But guess what? You hooked that survivor earlier, so you took away 20 seconds of gen progression and now have a second one to remove gen progression. Even in that worst case scenario, you only lost 50 seconds of gen progression at best. Including perks like Thrilling Tremors, Surge, Thana, Dying Light and you lost even less gen progression. This means you have 2 generators with 10 second progression and 1 generator with 30 second progression at most. That is the worst case scenario. Im sorry, but that is laughable to call that unfair.
The best case scenario is them all rushing 1 generator, causing them to not even finish that generator before you downed the same person and hook them again. Meaning 1 gen is finished if they get lucky, but they have 1 survivor that is either dead or dead on hook without having DS to save them, meaning they would have to decide to sacrifice that survivor or tank hookstages for that survivor. Both are in your favor.
DS is not unfair. Pop alone fully counters the effects that DS could have. If you still think differently, you would need to represent your case on why DS is unfair without contradicting yourself. I claim that Pop alone was more than powerful enough to counter a full team of DS, why do you think it got reduced with 15 seconds otherwise?
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At this point I don't think its subject to change. Which is a shame because if they made it truly anti tunnel in the way a lot of people recommended it would punish tunneling way harder than the current one and not punish good killers for snowballing too quick.
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I made the same point about chasing the person with DS being a waste of time in my comment - we're agreed on that. If you're just accepting the one survivor is getting away no matter what before deciding to eat the DS, though, why not slug them instead? If they have Unbreakable, they might get up, yeah. Worst case, though, this is the same logic you're using for DS; just get it out of the way so they can't use it letter. This way, though, you maintain pressure because the survivor is still incapacitated while slugged, even if they do have UB. Additionally, outside of a SWF, teammates might come to rescue the slug without knowing they have UB, which is just going to waste even more of the team's time. If they don't have Unbreakable, all the better. now they require a teammate to come help them, so you're getting just as much pressure from that slug as you would from a hook.
Intentionally eating a DS is almost never the right play, especially early in the match. One big exception I can think of is a survivor jumps into a locker (especially while healthy, but that's more rare), you don't see any of their teammates in the immediate area, and you know the DS timer isn't close to expiring. In that case, sure, eat the DS, because the alternatives are waiting for the DS timer to run out (which would probably waste as much time as just eating the DS in the first place) or walking away with nothing to show for it. Plus, they could always be bluffing, or if you're really lucky they could miss the skill check.
If a killer does not chase after a survivor who hits them with DS, the survivor will get right on a gen (or potentially start healing depending on the killer, but regardless, that time is not wasted). The only chance a survivor would be occupied for more than 10 seconds if the killer isn't pursuing them is if the killer has stealth and they're forced to be more cautious... At any rate, throughout the entire time after eating that DS, roughly 3 survivors are doing gens; by the time you find and start chasing another survivor after eating the DS, the person who DS'd you is likely either already on a gen, or most of the way healed and about to go get on a gen. There is no reason for a third survivor to rotate if you don't slug or hook a survivor, so eating the DS right away instead of leaving the slug allows the other survivors to keep doing gens.
Think about it this way: If after 30 seconds you went from one survivor down to two survivors injured, that is still the same amount of health states, and now no one requires a teammate to help them as opposed to the one slug you had before. Roughly three people are doing gens throughout these 30 seconds too, as I called out above, unless if you get lucky and you find like three survivors on the same gen or something after eating the DS. Roughly three people on gens over 30 seconds means you're still going to lose a gen because you ate that DS.
If you slug that survivor and go chase someone else, though, best case there's one survivor doing gens (no UB or no SWF means one survivor rotates to help the slug and you chase one survivor) and worst case there are two survivors doing gens (UB & SWF means no survivor needs to rotate, but the slug is still incapacitated for a while you chase one survivor). For this reason, slugging is usually the right play when you suspect someone has DS, even if it turns out they have UB. There are exceptions, but that's basically it.
This is also why I would support nerfing DS; eating a DS punishes the killer massively, and often when they're not even tunneling. It also encourages slugging, which isn't particularly exciting gameplay, and which in turn encourages the DS/UB meta, which is not fun to deal with as killer.
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I totally agree with you in spirit. The one trouble in practice with pausing the timer for people who actually are being tunneled is that this would be really hard to program. Like, you could tie it to a chase, but then killers could cheese it like old Legion used to if your DS timer was close to being up.
I think a 60 second timer is enough time to make DS perform well as an anti-tunnel perk. Like, if a killer is actually tunneling a survivor and the survivor keeps them busy for more than a minute in all of their chases, that killer is going to lose. That's not exactly comforting for the person getting tunneled, but it's at least something that should discourage killers from tunneling. Usually a killer is going to down someone in way faster than 60 seconds if they're tunneling them off the hook, meaning UB and Soul Guard come into play, so the person getting tunneled can have other protections in addition to their DS.
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Ds itself is fine, no need to change it
The wrong thing is how people use it. People abuse it, dont nerf the perk because it doesnt get rid of the problem. It's SWF who abuse it and make the perk a problem
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Well, if it were to be an anti tunnel perk, it should punish killers who tunnel much longer than DS currently does. I'm talking a 35(-10*amount of survivors sacrificed(not mori'd or bled out)) second timeframe in which if a chase starts, the timer gets paused and if the survivor is picked up, stun the killer for 10 full seconds.
That would punish tunneling early game extremely harsh to a point where tunneling is impossible to be a legitimate strategy, while it barely has any effect the more survivors are sacrificed and when the word tunneling loses meaning due to the lack of survivors.
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The best idea I saw is that in actual tunneling it would just not go down. And only start ticking when downed so you have 60 seconds to revive or be revived. But would deactivate when another player is hooked, you heal a health state or touch a gen.
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I'm just gonna start camping lol
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Eh, Ill just make a quick list to address the primary points rather than addressing all the secondary points
"If you're just accepting the one survivor is getting away no matter what before deciding to eat the DS, though, why not slug them instead?" 1. Because I dont want DS to be in the EGC. DS is pretty much a free escape during the EGC, I rather not have any survivor be given an free escape. 2. Because the results are practically the same, except with 1 DS less. The only scenario's I can think off where it makes a difference requires you to be facing an optimal SWF for the results to be different, in which case, you're probably underprepared anyway, or you're aware and brought an ebony mori to avoid any DS in the first place.
"Additionally, outside of a SWF, teammates might come to rescue the slug without knowing they have UB" This is true, but often there will be 1 or multiple survivors coming towards the slugged body in the first place because they know he might get hooked, then decide to switch places in the chase while I'm already chasing the survivor who unhooked them. Then they notice im not tunneling and search the other survivor to heal them up. Except in this case, there is no DS. Unbreakable is pretty much balanced, there is no punishment on killers unless killers try to go for a game-ending multi-slug. Considering I caught that survivor earlier too, they are obviously relatively easy to catch and I can freely slug them the remainder of the game after I hooked them a second time as a means to get other survivors off generators. More often than not, the fellow survivors will try to do ANYTHING to prevent me from hooking that survivor to a point where they practically throw themselves at me for a free hit, which reduces total chase times with harder to catch survivors by a significant amount. Again, you'd have to be facing at (near)optimal SWF teams before you encounter a situation that it leads into a more negative situation than having a DS survive untill the EGC is.
"the survivor will get right on a gen" Only after they have confirmed you're not chasing them anymore. Ofcourse you shouldnt eat a DS out in the open where a survivor can run straight and look behind them to confirm you're chasing them or not. Location, placement and environment does matter. Just as you wouldnt Pop the nearest generator, you'd prefer to keep Pop untill you find a generator that has progressed far enough to get optimal results from it. But there is plenty of situations where you can eat a DS for practically free and remove 1 free escape-out-of-the-realm card. Let alone that it allows you to tunnel that survivor later if it's needed. Because lets be honest, there is a point in the game where you need to remove a survivor from the equation no matter what. But the vast majority of games, at least 80% of the games I play, survivors dont play that tryhard where they instantly go on gens unless they happen to run towards a gen after using DS. And this isnt simply purple or low red rank players either. This is rank 1 survivors vs rank 1 killer gameplay. Ofcourse you adapt your playstyle to counterplay the opposing team, however, there have been at least 20 different scenario's where I could eat a free DS. Some scenarios that are more common than you expect: you see survivors around you ready for a flashlight save, its essentially free to waste their DS because DS gets triggered the moment you pick them up, even if the flashlight save is faster. Meaning you dont get the 5 second stun.
"throughout the entire time after eating that DS, roughly 3 survivors are doing gens; by the time you find and start chasing another survivor after eating the DS, the person who DS'd you is likely either already on a gen, or most of the way healed and about to go get on a gen. There is no reason for a third survivor to rotate if you don't slug or hook a survivor, so eating the DS right away instead of leaving the slug allows the other survivors to keep doing gens." I did address this mostly, but I guess I have to include that you're not focussing your chase towards someone off a hook to eat the DS, you just eat the DS of someone who was freshly unhooked, knowing where their teammate is off to. Meaning at most, 2 survivors are on a generator, with the unhooker possibly on a generator if one was close, but off the generator before they even left any significant impact, while the survivor who DS'd will very likely meet halfway with another survivor, especially considering they are of the belief that I am tunneling them. For 3 people to be doing gens, it would require me to be tunneling. Which isnt part of any set up for an intentional DS. The intentional DS comes to mind when you simply happen to be able to down someone fairly close after coming off the hook while you're on your way and you realize you have the time to do so. It's not like we're just eating a DS willy nilly not thinking of anything else. But the odds of being able to eat a DS because you have the time to do so is much more common than you'd initially think. A lot of people(especially those with a bias towards killers) have the notion that Killers need optimal time management to win games, which is false. There have been plenty of times where I just screw around just for the sake of having some fun and survivors tend to respect it because they get to enjoy the game more. I'm not giving them free wins, I tend to end my games with a 3k, but I dont get serious untill the opposing team gives me a reason to be serious, and in that non-serious time, I get rid of a DS or 2 if the oppertunity rises. Assuming every game will be a sweaty game is simply a bad assumption. Killer is harder to play than survivor, but its easier to win as a killer than as a survivor too. Survivors dont tend to play sweaty early game unless you do.
I'm not saying you're wrong in that slugging is more effective the more sweatier survivors are early game. The thing is that slugging itself is a broken mechanic that should be avoided untill its absolutely necessary. In most games you encounter, there is practically no difference to your winning condition by eating a DS or slugging. Which is also why my design of DS also counters slugging while removing it from the game afterwards. It's not just any idea I had and posted online without thought, I spend quite some time thinking of how to limit its lategame use while keeping survivors inside the game long enough, fully purposing DS' use as an anti-removal perk rather than the botched version it currently is which promotes slugging and camping a slugged body, dropping the quality of the average game. This is currently the best version I could think of that could benefit the quality of game, would reduce early game tunneling to essentially 0(why tunnel when it's guaranteed to work?), punishes people who tunnel someone off a hook for an early game Mori by healing the survivor 1 health state after 60 seconds while they are chased. It fixes a lot of issues DS has against "fair" killers while keeping its strengths against "unfair" killers.
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Its not necessarily a direct nerf tho. Its a nerf based on it's abuse only, while still keeping its current intended use. If you dont get to use DS early game because the killer respected your unhook, the killer probably gets punished for it during the EGC. Giving survivors a healthstate after first unhook would also fix issues that arise when you're on the hook for 2 hookstages. Originally, a killer could slug you, wait out 60 seconds and remove you from the game quite early, with this change, this is much harder to do, especially considering you wouldnt need to dedicate 3 perks to counter that situation anymore. You just need 2.
I only see this as an improvement to the quality game. It no longer punishes killers who respect and make it more punishing on killers who dont respect.
Obviously there are some killer perks that need a change like that, Pop already has been altered slightly, but its extremely punishing to non-sweaty survivors, causing them to play a lot sweatier even though you just started to enjoy the game. Perhaps it should be 50% of current progression instead of 25% of total progression. It punishes people who were rushing a gen while you were hooking someone, while rewarding people who didnt rush gens while you were hooking someone.
But DS needs a change. If it can be abused, it needs addressing. If it was fine, it couldnt be abused so badly.
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I do think this isn't the best solution tbh. I think making ds deactivate once they touch a generator or during endgame collapse and keep it as it is. This would help make it much more reasonable.
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The problem with that tho, is how could the game recognise you being tunneled? Assuming you could, it would require a massive script that includes a shitton of factors like: how many survivors are alive, how many hooks have you been on, how many hooks have other survivors been on. Let alone that hooking someone else doesnt necessarily mean you didnt tunnel, let alone that touching a gen has many reasons(you're the only one in the area with a regressing generator that has a lot of progress. You would literally be sandbagging your team if you didnt stop regression, but you're still being tunneled). Even if someone else gets hooked, you could have been downed before while the killer hooks someone else first while that timer ticks down.
Then you also have how many people were in killer vision, how many of those people did the killer actually see? You would need an eye tracker to confirm how many the killer sees. It's simply not possible to properly determine a situation where you get tunneled. You'd be screwing over killers who dont tunnel and screw over survivors who get tunneled because the game didnt recognise it as a tunnel. You need so much data to confirm whether or not it's a tunnel that its practically impossible to implement such a mechanic. The only real confirmation you could add is by forcing the killer to look at a survivor who has the least hooked stages in the area in a similar way that survivors are forced to look at a hag when they trigger a trap, and if they then continue to chase the unhooked survivor, only then it could be considered a tunnel, but there are issues with that aswell. Perhaps that survivor was hiding in plain sight to finish up the generator before swapping places with the tunneled survivor, perhaps there is a body behind the killer that needs picking up, perhaps there was an item dropped that they wanted to return.
You're asking too much by asking the developers to create a script that could recognise tunneling without making the game objectively worse.
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You mean throwing the game?
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You're saying that because of Scott Jund, aren't you. Issue being: touching a generator isnt the same as working on a generator. Deactivating it during the EGC when the killer could have eaten it earlier is also an issue. You're basically incentizing killers to slug everyone. That is a problem with Scott's design. It doesnt consider factors of toxic players. With current DS, if it survives to the EGC, either you respect the killer for not making you use DS earlier in game, or you dont. With Scott's version, killers could plan on the fact that the EGC has no DS at all, you cant stop a generator from regressing if the killer makes bad decisions during a chase. Touching a generator doesnt mean you're not getting tunneled. You could be tunneled by a stealth killer who's simply waiting till you start working on a generator. That's a problem too.
It's not a bad suggestion, but it raises more problems than it currently solves. DS is an anti-removal perk, not an anti-tunnel perk.
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This doesn't really fix the problem that is DS. It needs to be a constant threat to prevent certain people from hardcore tunneling, but it also needs to not protect the survivor who tries to use it offensively and/or force it. All this does is buff it so that it's a guaranteed-use perk but also make it so that those aforementioned killers will tunnel in the late game.
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