A simple solution to tunneling
To preface this, I know. It probably won't get noticed by the devs or ever mean much, but its nice to share my ideas when I get annoyed and I am curious to the ideas that everyone else has. Here is my simple solution.
When a survivor is unhooked by another survivor (not unhook themselves or deliverance), they gain a status effect from the hooks for 20 seconds. During this time, if the killer chases them or is within 12 meters of the survivor, the timer is paused. If the survivor is downed, the status effect goes active for 60 seconds.
If the survivor has the status effect remaining and is picked up, the status effect timer is paused. If the survivor has this status effect remaining and is hooked or caged, they will not enter second or third state. They will instead keep their timer at the previous point before they were unhooked, and gain 20 extra seconds of that stage. This cannot overcharge the previous amount (if you get unhooked 3 seconds into the first stage, it doesn't give you an extra 20. It only gives 3).
This goes away if the survivor is fully healed, tries to unhook, heals another survivor, attempts to open an exit gate, cleanse a totem, or repair a generator. This status effect also goes away if the survivor uses a flashlight, key, or map in any way.
Share your thoughts down below. I know perks such as borrowed time sorta do this, and decisive strike counters tunneling, but what if the teammate isn't running borrowed? What if you missed the decisive or get caged? Besides. Both of those perks are just bandaid fixes to the problem that is tunneling.
Yes I just got farmed twice by my teammate from basement (unhooked without BT or We'll make it, didn't heal me, and didn't distract the killer) and was then hooked all 3 times in the span of one minute.
Comments
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Honestly would take this over the current requirement of DS. 5 games in a row I've now been tunnel visoned by the killer for no reason. 5 gens and targetting 1 single person then proceeding to camp. Like, seriously, something needs to be done to combat this crap. And before anyone gets on the high horse, yes, camping is a tactic. But at 5 gens? That's not a tactic.
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It wouldn't fix tunneling/camping, but it would penalize the Killer for it.
That said, I feel like it would mess with Devotion points, which caps at 12 hooks. At that point, it might not penalize the Killer at all, unless they don't receive points for hooking within the time frame.
Also, going by your story, that was more your teammates fault than the Killer. You didn't accuse the Killer of jerkery, though, so I'm guessing you know that, to which I offer a hug amongst thugs.
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Devs will NEVER fix the tunnel/camp issue, because they want it into the game, as a part of that kind of feeling of "every match is different"... and its quite cool on streaming to watch that borrowed that allows you to escape in the last moment.
A different thing would be a better punishment to campers and tunnelers. The game is in a state where killers have enough options to do good matches without those... "strategies", I think.
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It would penalize the killer, that is the point. Don't have it count to sacrifice, and now the killer has even less incentive to do that. And the killer being penalized for camping and tunneling is the whole point. It won't stop tunneling, of course, but it would make it... Non-beneficial to the killer to do. Heck, it would actually make it detrimental to do it. Because unless you slug for an entire minute without anyone attempting to help the downed survivor (in which case, they are likely doing gens), you just refreshed the survivor's hook timer.
And of course I didn't complain about the killer. Do I dislike how they played? Yes. Was it actually smart for them to hunt the injured person rather than go for the full health girl with a medkit? Yes.
But complaining about a bad teammate solves nothing, and complaining about a jerk killer will just get me "Git gud" messages. So I tried to come up with a solution.
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It is very satisfying to see a survivor run past the killer and save you with BT so both of you can run out the exit gate and "win."
But unless you are a famous streamer or playing with friends, that's unreliable at best i've had more teammates wait for me to die to take my medkits or tool box (which turns out to be a brown or a yellow) then save me with borrowed time.
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To be honest, I think 5-8 seconds of deep wound status should be base kit for survivors since taking someone unhooked is just too easy. I can't think of the ways to integrate it since I'm not a game developer, but I think that would be great for people :) Also, what a good idea!!! I think there are some adjustments to be made to balance survivors so they all have good abilities but nothing super meta nor weak, then again that would be great for both sides lol!
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While the 5-8 seconds of deep wound could possibly work, then we just have the same thing we have with borrowed time. The killer is simply just gonna hug you until those 5-8 seconds is up, and then they hit you down.
I'm sure there could be tweaks and stuff for balancing, but it was kinda just an off the top of my head idea with some quick thought while typing.
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That's a great point and I thought of it too, but I would prefer that over getting downed super quickly off the hook. There's no simple solution unfortunately, I guess the strategy is to tunnel out the 'weakest' even if their errors were not errors at all but just bad timing. Happens a lot, and while it sucks, all you can do is hope for the best!
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True that. All we can do is hope to get an avtual fix one day that isn't just a one use perk with a chance to fail (I play console, and the skillcheck for DS actually caused fps drops and stutters with the indicator)
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How to fix tunneling and genrush at the same time
Step1: Add a repair penalty to injured survivors and a repair boost to the remaining survivors for every dead survivor
Step 2: tweek the numbers till they are just right
Step 3: ?????
Step 4: profit
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To be honest I really like OPs idea. You tunnel you get hit with a hook timer penalty
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I dunno
you are trying to fix a problem that shouldn’t actually be a problem.
lf you are patient and don’t hook rush the killer either sits there and gets his 1k camp or he leaves.
The game didn’t create this problem, the players did, you shouldn’t make a fix for a mindset problem.
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Why not just make it completely impossible to tunnel or camp then? The problem with these punishments is that it's too easy to accidentally do and it incentivizes cheap plays on the survivor side.
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We don't need a buffer against killers, sometimes they prefer to focus. Just have to do better than your team in that situation.
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Have you ever been tunneled? doesnt seem like it based on your post. The remaining survivors have to go there to see if its safe to unhook and if its not they just sit their wasting time so gens arent completed either. Its nota problem created by survivors.
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Have l ever been tunneled?
Yeah nah l have never been tunneled in all the years l have played.
You just contradicted yourself, the survivors are just sitting there not unhooking or saving?
so who’s fault is it? The games fault that a survivor got caught and the killer is camping (because he chooses to, which he is aloud to do) and the other survivors are choosing to sit there and do nothing.
and if they unhook him while the killer is camping he will get tunneled
Yeah defiantly not the survivors fault right?
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Doesn't seem like you understand anything I am trying to communicate. I said, the remaining survivors have to go to the hook where he is hooked to see if it is OK to unhook him. Therefore, those players can no longer work on gens. So now you have situation where they can't unhook, and they are waiting for killer to leave. therefore the gens are not getting completed either. Not sure how you completely misunderstood this as being the players fault because they are just trying to help their teammate, but are unable to do so because the killer is being a #########.
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This is punishing the killer for the wrong doings on your teammates.
You admitted this came from your teammates farming you so I have to ask:
Why SHOULD the killer be punished for the SURVIVOR'S mistakes?
This wreaks of cognitive dissonance("My teammates wronged me so I must punish the Killer for my team's mistakes").
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I am not misunderstanding anything
if three survivors are not willing to move away from a camping killer to do gens then that’s on them, good intentions or not those three survivors are at fault if the game is lost.
You are basically trying to get a free out for the hooked survivor because the killer is camping. They have the choice to unhook or move away, if they do neither that’s nor the game or the killers fault.
The game dosnt work like that and people don’t work like that.
surely you can’t be this naive?
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I think the premise here is flawed. Tunneling, like proxy camping and slugging, aren't problems, they're just things survivors don't like.
To counter tunneling, there are perks like Borrowed Time and Decisive Strike. This is noticably different from the score penalty killers receive for staying too close to hooks when face camping.
Your proposal is to give survivors, essentially, a fifth perk slot, not necessarily to counter tunneling, but to punish the killer for poor play by your team.
A better fix for your problem would be a timer that penalizes someone for X amount of unsafe hooks within a period of time. This could be a BP loss or a status affect, like 20 seconds of exhaustion or hindered which would help persuade a killer to pursue them over the easy, injured target who could be getting farmed.
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Yea and while we’re at it let’s add a debuff that reduces gen speed for every survivor on a gen to prevent gen rushing.
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I'd prefer something like a weaker base kit DS for a short period after getting unhooked, with a stun lasting for a shorter period, maybe revealing the aura of any survivor who unsafely unhooked you. I.e. something that's "anti-tunnel" but not locked behind a cash-only dlc
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Why can't just run BT, DS, Camaraderie, Breakdown?
There's times I'm unhooked in front of the exit game, immediately whacked and re-hooked on that same spot.
That immediate re-hook on that same spot is the annoying part as it's too fast.
Doesn't give other survivors to heal and be chased away out of the exit gate.
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You are no more entitled to a 4 Escape game than a killer is a 4 kill game, if you take away tools from the killer you need to take away tools from survivors to balance it out, like being hooked once removes your on hit speed burst and disables your exhaustion perks permanently so you are way easier to take down in future chases making it less of a issue if you run off and heal,
otherwise stop messing up unhooks don't have a healthy person with no hooks try to be bait, for example have a more skilled injured one do it, or just eat the loss and do gens, if you die you get to start a new game,
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This is why Borrowed Time is in the game. The problem is players not bringing Borrowed Time.
I hate to say it again, but you always have the option to outplay the killer.
You can Dead Hard after being unhooked, you can have sprint burst after being unhooked, you could run DS, you could have looped the killer for enough time for gens to finish just before you go down, etc.
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Agree.
At first i play more survi, lke 70% survi - 30% killer. And i never face camp, not usually 'tunnel' or camp (WHEN MATCH IS LOST, 5 GENS AND 2 HOOKS, WHAT SHOULD I DO, GO TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE MAP, GO EVERY SINGLE SURVI AND TRY TO HIT ONCE TO ALL OF THEM, NO, IM SMART) Depends on the context.
People need to understant the context. Why killer did that. Also many survis call tunnel if u just follow them wow. THINK IN THIS WAY... survis don't do gens to 80% and then run to other gen, no, they end that gen, to do progression on the match. Oh they are tunneling gens, how toxic, XD
I hate when killers tunnel me or face camp, but depends on context. Many of those, were caused by survivors who did unsafe unhooks near the killer and then have chases of less than 10 seconds. Manny of those tunnels or camps, are in late (many others don't), when the match can be lost without any single kill, and the last chances that killer is use them. But finally are part of the game, we can like or not. When someone is camping survis MUST BE SMART and don't unhook, at least soon, and gen rush. When someone seems tunneled people need to take hits to them or use perks like borrowed time.
But yeah i agree is annoying when since the start of the match, u get tunneled or face camed without reason. As i said, i play more survi, and i not usually do 'tunnel' or 'camp'
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I have a lot to catch up on. No, I do not think the killer should be punished for survivor mistakes. But why should I be punished because of a bad teammate? I lose my item, depip, lose my offering, lose bloodpoints, waste my time, because my teammate unhooked and then urban evaded away two times in a row?
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I mentioned those perks already. Yes, borrowed time can counter some tunneling and camping (except against stealth killers, who are generally amazing campers. Like the twins who have no TR), but not everyone runs it. So if my teammate decided they didn't want it, I just have to die?
As for decisive, I mean, it can be helpful. But I play on console. I am not the best in the world at skillchecks, but having a frame rate drop and stutter everytime a skillcheck appears happens kinda often. And if my life rests on optimization done by the devs, I am probably gonna die.
Also, that penalty can be abused even more than the anti tunnel perk. Lets say my teammate saves me. Now the killer comes right back and hits me. They didn't plan on picking me up because they are nice or fear I have decisive. Well, now they have another teammate they can hunt. And this one is exhausted! So one person slugged, one exhausted person in chase. Thats a lot of pressure and a possible easy down.
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You can't trust randoms to bring BT. So my life rests in the chance that this random is using BT, the killer isn't a stealth, and the killer is far away?
I do run dead hard. But on console, it only works half the times. I have gotten exhausted and then downed in the same 5 frames more often than I have evaded an attack with it. I don't use sprint burst because I personally don't like it. The DS skill check on console can be completely destroyed by the frame rate drop of it appearing (I have had times where the fps drops, and by the time I can see the spinner its past the DS).
As for looping the killer, not every map is good for that. I was playing on rotten fields when it happened, a map filled with dead zones. How am I supposed to loop a killer (spirit in this case) for 4 generators while injured on a map with a dead zone every 5 feet?
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Only 1 gen (which I did) was done against a spirit. She had one hook (who I saved and healed), and what she did was she hooked me in basement and ran off to pressure gens. Everytime the same girl saved me, she would use her phase ability to rush over and hit me. No BT because no TR. No outrunning because no good loops and spirit. I got hit by the same tactic twice before even a second generator was done.
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Alternate solution: as killer base kit, thrilling tremors for as long as someone is hooked, but only while the killer is 36m away from the person on the hook.
It encourages people to go save the guy on the hook, and it encourages the killer to leave. It encourages chases with people over there, because then they're not generating and they can't unhook.
Also, it discourages bold and/or stupid play by the unhookee, which is a huge source of "tunneling."
And it prevents gen tunneling, which is unfun for the killer. Nobody likes to lose just because the other side is playing to win.
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Because this wouldn't punish killers for accidentally "tunneling" like DS does. This perk has a limited amount of time, and the only time the countdown is paused is if the killer is too close to the survivor. So either the killer goes off and the survivor's timer ticks down, the killer tunnels the survivor in which case this solves the issue by punishing the killer, or the survivor chases the killer to stay in the area and doesn't do gens or help teammates.
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I totally agree, it should not be an issue. But it is. Survivors get free BP for the unhook, and even more +emblem progress if you don't take a hit for 5-10 seconds. Killers get an extra hook, more pressure, or a dead survivor if they do tunnel you. Both sides gain benefits for abusing it, so why should we not punish them? @CrimsonReverie had a good idea. A penalty or punishment for the survivor who committed the unsafe unhook. Now both parties learn their lesson, and it could help curtail the tunneling/farming mindset
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BT doesn't save me when another survivor goes for a safe unhook. I am bad at hitting the DS skillchecks as on console, the skillcheck causes an FPS drop. Camaraderie is extremely niche, and doesn't stop the killer from tunneling. And breakdown could work, but most maps have hooks that are too close together for breakdown to do anything but waste both me and the killer's time. Also, shouldn't have to run a build with 4 DLC perks to counter tunneling.
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You are absolutely correct! I am no more entitled to a 4 man escape than a killer is a 4k. But I also shouldn't be actively punished in hooked 3 times in the span of one minute because a teammate farmed me and the killer used that for free pressure. Imagine if survivors could complete a generator in 10 seconds because the killer decided to kick it too many times in a row. Why should a survivor be penalized because their teammate farmed them and played poorly? Why should the killer get to kill someone in 1 minute because their teammate farmed them? Why would you let a survivor instantly finish a gen because the killer kicked it tok many times?
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But this solution is abusable in the same way DS and BT are: the survivor follows you around and then soaks a hit for the unhooker.
Or he just follows you for an indeterminate amount of time, knowing that as long as he chases the killer he's basically invincible; all the while he's able to get in the way, engage the killer in chases, etc.
It encourages bold and stupid plays on the party of the survivor, with the end result of punishing the killer.
Anyone who has ever played killer knows that there's a whole category of survivor whose job on their team is to waste the killer's time -- they don't touch gens, heal, or do anything else if they have any chance whatsoever to distract the killer from engaging the other survivors.
And that's ignoring the less talented survivors who still want to mess with the killer, either because they think it's funny or they enjoy the chase more than the objective.
These types of survivors are the ones killers are complaining about when it comes to perks like DS, BT, etc. The people who play stupid on purpose because they know that they're "punishing" the killer. No killer is complaining about DS when they tunnel a guy right off the hook.
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There are already lots of SIMPLE solutions to tunneling:
- Safe Rescues. I know people seem to have forgotten how to do these, but these are the best defense against tunneling.
- The Perk: Borrowed Time is great for when those safe rescues are hard to do.
- Protection Hits: You are part of a TEAM of Survivors and they can take the hit for you and block, or take their time on the hook.
There are lots of other ways too, but the three above are the easiest and most simple. Your "solution" isn't simple nor necessary. Tunneling doesn't need "fixing" because it isn't broken. It is part of the game. You answer it with other game actions, and doesn't need to be coded.
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While that could work, it would only work on specific killers. Killers like nurse, billy, spirit, wraith, pyramid head (in a sense), death slinger, huntress, twins, clown (in a sense), legion, hag, demogorgon, blight and oni would be less effected by this. Either because they are high speed, or because their ranged attacks let them hit the survivors from far away.
Not to mention, you have now given the killer an absurd amount of pressure and a free tracking ability whenever they hook somebody. They have now blocked most of the gens, and they can see any gen that has survivors on it.
This stops face camping and really close camping, but if anything, it makes tunneling a better strategy. Now the killer has incentives to get hooks quickly. So my full health teammate unhooks me, and the killer comes back. He sees my teammate full healthed run off, and me, injured, run off the other way. He is most likely gonna come for me, as I only have one hit in me, and even if I have DS and Unbreakable, that's one survivor out of the game for a while
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You are correct, that it can be abused. But if the survivor is chasing you around, they aren't healing, they aren't doing generators, they aren't doing totems or anything else. Now you have two people occupied and free pressure. If that person goes down, even more pressure. You probably won't pick them up for the hook, as they weren't your intended target. I'm sure there are tweaks that can be made to my idea, absolutely. But as of right now, unless your teammate has bt or you have DS and good FPS, the killer gets nothing but free hooks for tunneling you.
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Sounds okay.
The de facto alternative is that survivors with only one health state are immune to hits -- otherwise, the obvious solution is to just give survivors full health when they're unhooked.
The complaint here is really that people don't like to lose. They want the killer to ignore them if they were the last one hooked.
That's only fair if they can't participate in the game. People talk about getting immunity that expires if they do gens, but that means they're invincible -- despite being able to body block, generate loud noises, wear identical cosmetics to sow confusion, etc -- until it wears off.
A better alternative is to change nothing and instead put the expectation on your team to safely unhook. If that's too much to ask, punish unsafe unhooks, in the exact same way that camping is punished.
It's not the killer's fault survivors unhook in their face, and the expectation that far too many survivors have is that the killer will ignore them, even though they're the closest, most accessible target.
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I love your train of thought, and wish it was more widely known. Honestly, I do. But these ideas are all something you would have to rely on a random survivor and a nice killer for. Nurse, spirit, billy, wraith, ghostface, t1 myers or t2 invisi myers, pyramid head, hag, oni, demogorgon, death slinger, huntress... Etc etc. All of these killers can turn a safe unhook (no tr nearby or killer distracted) into an unsafe hook in seconds.
Borrowed time is awesome! The problem is, well, its easily countered. Not only does the unhooking survivor have to have BT (something you can't rely on), the killer has to be nearby, have a TR, and even then you only get 15 seconds. Look at what pros like otz do. They will just walk behind the BT guy for 15 seconds until it runs out then hit them.
I take protection hits whenever possible. Heck, if I have a medkit, I can sometimes take 2 to 3 protection hits in a single chase. The thing is, a lot of randoms can't be trusted to do this. And even when they do, the killer can just ignore them and go after you. I love all of these ideas, but all of your ideas rely on the other survivor to be a hero, or the killer to be nice. And when playing with randoms, you are better off running deliverance, self care, unbreakable, and decisive to save yourself.
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The problem isn't winning the game.
The problem is the survivors abusing the immunity to make the game less fun for the killer, in the same way that getting camped ruins the fun for a survivor, despite the fact that it usually causes the killer to lose the game.
Unless you're willing to concede that camping isn't a problem because the killer isn't pressuring gens or chasing other survivors, then you need to accept that survivors having any amount of immunity is problematic.
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I'm not saying that hook rescues aren't tricky, nor am I saying they are easy. I'm just saying they (Tunneling too) are part of the game. It is just a problem we all deal with. I'm saying there are already enough things built in and available. Nothing else needs to be added. There is always going to be Killer agency, and straight up bad luck. You can get safely rescued and run to the other side of the map, and still run into the Killer by accident. I play Killer and Survivor. I'm not picky as Killer, and I take the target I feel I can run down safest for the next hit. If the Survivor making the rescue does their job right, he/she will be the target.
I can't tell you how many times I've ended up at the hook when an unsafe rescue is taking place, and the would-be rescuer puts the hooked between me and them. I've seen it too often to think it isn't on purpose. :) Tunneling happens largely because Survivors do a poor job. Fixing that with code isn't necessary. They just need to up their game.
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I agree. It is on the unhooking survivors to play smarter and be better. But that isn't realistic to believe in. Do I wish it were true? Yes. But until it is, the unhooked person is simply going to be punished for their teammates short sitedness or selfishness. I get unhooked in a farmy way by meg, who sprint bursts off. Now I am gonna go down, so I lose a hook. Why am I punished for a bad teammate?
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Sorry, my phone keeps deleting the message or refreshing the page. Camping is a viable strategy. Tunneling can be too. But at 4-5 gens left and you tunnel the same guy off hook twice, because their teammate was a jerk?
Also, I do think the unhooker should be penalized. The problem is, how would they do it? The unsafe unhooker already recieves less bp and emblem.
If you make it a weak status effect like blindness or hemorage, so what? If you make it something strong like exposed, exhaustion, or hindered, well now the killer can abuse that harder than any survivor could previously. A lot of killers can turn a safe unhook into an unsafe one. Say a teammate saves me from basement. A nurse who was far away now teleports in, and hits me. Now that unhooker is punished for a safe unhook because the killer was smarter. Now the killer has one person down, and an exposed/slowed/exhausted survivor. That's free pressure, an easy down, and one hook (maybe even two)
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Because that is the game. I'm not trying to be snide or harsh. I'm just pointing out the obvious. This is a 4v1 PVP game. Survivors as a group, performing at least competently, are more than a match for the Killer. The advantage shifts to them as the skill levels increase. However, the downside is they are only as strong as their weakest member. You aren't being punished for anything. You and I both know the drill. When we come into the Solo Que (We few... we proud... we undaunted) we do it with the knowledge that we are entirely in the dark about whether our peers will be stand up guys/gals. SWF tend not to have this problem, but Solo do.
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From the videos and streams I watch, Tunneling tends to happen a lot more at 2 gens than at 4-5. I think part of the problem, and why we see Ruin/Undying so much, is that there isn't as much reward for actively being elsewhere as there is for ensuring one survivor dies. I was playing rank 1s as clown the other day, they were kicking my ass with no chance of winning, until I killed one and got a key pop off. Now, with 3 people, it went from unwinnable to slowly heading my way, and I won the battle of attrition. There is such a huge advantage to having someone die, that if survivors get to 1-2 gens, someone needs to be dead or you lose. Instead of thinking like a survivor, and wanting to punish a killer for killing, think like you want killers to actually play the game, and have more ways to reward them for leaving like Ruin/Undying does. It is a 2 perk combo that ONLY has value if you are not staying in one place.
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True. I still wish there was a system of some kind in place. I have had 2 matches in the past day (the first one I made the post about, and then one a little while ago against the twins) where both times a safe unhook ended with me tunneled. And it is just... I wasted a commodious and a ranger medkit to be out before 3 gens done? Now I depip and lose good items for... What?
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I agree. Sometimes it can be better to actually get someone out of the game. And I like perks that promote being away from hook. The problem is, they are either super or miss, dlc, or broken on some characters. To get ruin undying, I have to get both hag and blight up to extremely high levels, and then hope I get both in the blood web of my main.
Devour hope is nice, except if it gets broken instantly, its a useless slot. And most survivors will gun for it as soon as they see exposed devour hope.
Make your choice is awful. Because the unhook survivor either has a massive headstart by the time you show up, or the killer just gets over there instantly (nurse, hag, blight, spirit, etc) and now nobody is gonna wanna save.
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I feel your pain; I've been there. The only advice I can offer is something I got from one of Otz's videos about not getting tilted by the game. Play each match to the best of your ability and just try to have fun. Don't sweat the outcome of individual matches. Set yourself a long term goal (or goals) and track for them. Of course there are going to be bad games, but when when you track your progress on the macro those individual games seem less important.
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